cimarron 1885 highwall 45-70

[howell1000]

Hi new to this forum want to know if this gun is good to shoot long range black powder comp. I live in WV anyone know any good long range clubs in my area?? or were I need to go to compete ? thanks for any info

[TCLouis]

Wyoming is a pretty dang big area, what part of Wyoming are you thinking about?

Dang, when I looked my eyes put a tail on that V.

[Kraschenbirn]

Gonna need to provide a bit more information before you'll get any knowledgeable responses. Okay, so the gun's a Cimarron '85 Highwall chambered for .45-70. Which model/barrel style? (I'm aware of, at least, three different Highwall versions sold by Cimarron over the last 10-12 years) New or used? If used, what's the bore condition? What's it got for sights?

So far as places to shoot long range in WV, check with the West Virginia State Rifle & Pistol Association ( http://www.wvasrpa.org/ )...or, better yet, join the WVASRPA.

Bill

[howell1000]

Gonna need to provide a bit more information before you'll get any knowledgeable responses. Okay, so the gun's a Cimarron '85 Highwall chambered for .45-70. Which model/barrel style? (I'm aware of, at least, three different Highwall versions sold by Cimarron over the last 10-12 years) New or used? If used, what's the bore condition? What's it got for sights?

So far as places to shoot long range in WV, check with the West Virginia State Rifle & Pistol Association ( http://www.wvasrpa.org/ )...or, better yet, join the WVASRPA.

Bill

Its a new gun got it this summer , just open sights for now looking for tang sights its a Deluxe Model 1885 High Wall Sporting Rifle 45-70, 30" Oct. Barrel, Double Set Trigger

[Kraschenbirn]

While I'm not a frequent BPCR competitor, I do own...and shoot regularly...a couple of Uberti Highwalls (one a Cimarron and the other a Taylor). With properly developed handloads, both guns will hold under 2 MOA (iron sights) so long as I do my part...and 2 MOA should be fairly competitive on those steel critters. The double-set trigger should eliminate the need for any trigger work so all you're really going to need...so far as the gun, itself...are a decent set of sights. I prefer Lee Shaver, myself, but there are multiple choices available for that gun. After that, it's pretty much up to you: load development, perhaps 'tweaking' the gun at little, and lots of practice.


Bill

[montana_charlie]

Wyoming is a pretty dang big area, what part of Wyoming are you thinking about?
He said he's in WV ... not WY.

[howell1000]

He said he's in WV ... not WY.


thanks for info any info on boolit molds or whats max on grain of boolit

[rfd]

what's the rifling twist rate? for long range (300 yards or more) the heavier bullets in the 500 grain range are typically better and they really require a fast 1:18 twist.

a cheap but decent bullet mould will be the lyman postell @ about 530 grains, but there are far better moulds for bpcr, imho. cast with 1:20 tin:lead alloy for starters and you will need to use a good black powder bullet lube (i'll make a huge assumption you'll be slinging grease groove bullets and not paper patched).

i would strongly suggest loading with black powder, but if not you'll need to see if that rifle can safely handle smokeless. loading black is very different than smokeless. with black powder loads, you will need to deal with fouling control, but it's worth using black, imo.

for real long distance you will absolutely need a good vernier tang and multi aperture front globe. far better yet, a vernier soule tang sight with adjustable aperture hadley eye cup, and a spirit globe front sight.

all of the above is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to bpcr .... the goals are great to focus on, but do enjoy the journey as well.

[howell1000]

what's the rifling twist rate? for long range (300 yards or more) the heavier bullets in the 500 grain range are typically better and they really require a fast 1:18 twist.

a cheap but decent bullet mould will be the lyman postell @ about 530 grains, but there are far better moulds for bpcr, imho. cast with 1:20 tin:lead alloy for starters and you will need to use a good black powder bullet lube (i'll make a huge assumption you'll be slinging grease groove bullets and not paper patched).

i would strongly suggest loading with black powder, but if not you'll need to see if that rifle can safely handle smokeless. loading black is very different than smokeless. with black powder loads, you will need to deal with fouling control, but it's worth using black, imo.

for real long distance you will absolutely need a good vernier tang and multi aperture front globe. far better yet, a vernier soule tang sight with adjustable aperture hadley eye cup, and a spirit globe front sight.

all of the above is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to bpcr .... the goals are great to focus on, but do enjoy the journey as well.

Thanks for info I have been asking around I think my rifle is a 20:1 twist that's what texasjacks told me that's were I bought the rifle so that prob make a difference

[rfd]

lots will depend on how competitive you wanna be, and at what distances. a 1:20 twist should work ok for 500 grain bullets @ 600 yards let alone 200 yards, but it might just not have the competitive edge required for serious competition. you'd need to experiment with bullets & loads. a lyman 457193 that drops around 415 grains should work real well out of 1:20 twist, but i doubt it'll be competitive much beyond 200 yards or so. again, lotta experimenting ...

[howell1000]

lots will depend on how competitive you wanna be, and at what distances. a 1:20 twist should work ok for 500 grain bullets @ 600 yards let alone 200 yards, but it might just not have the competitive edge required for serious competition. you'd need to experiment with bullets & loads. a lyman 457193 that drops around 415 grains should work real well out of 1:20 twist, but i doubt it'll be competitive much beyond 200 yards or so. again, lotta experimenting ...

I guess it would be good to start out with I was wanting to go to 1000 yards but 600 better than nothing I would like to a Shiloh or csharps but cant afford it right now I will check out the lyman 457193 thanks for all the info

[rfd]

imo, having cast and shot off a few thousand of the 457193, it ain't gonna do 300 competitively well, let alone 1000 yards. a 1:20 twist is just too slow for a really competitive bpcr rifle setup using proper 500+ grain bullets. i'm just trying to help ya get to know what i do believe yer in for with that rifle, IF you want to shoot gongs and paper faces waaay out there, and not critters.

[rfd]

dgw shows this 45-70 hi-wall, that looks like a cimarron/armi sportster standard, and the twist is 1:21 ....

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/CR0925.jpg

this is the cimarron deluxe - no clue as to the rifle twist but they're probably using the same barrel as the standard ...

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/media/catalog/product/cache/6/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/a/ca8000set01-highwall-30-4570-pg-dstrig.jpg

easy enuf to check yer rifle's twist rate, too.

[Kraschenbirn]

imo, having cast and shot off a few thousand of the 457193, it ain't gonna do 300 competitively well, let alone 1000 yards. a 1:20 twist is just too slow for a really competitive bpcr rifle setup using proper 500+ grain bullets. i'm just trying to help ya get to know what i do believe yer in for with that rifle, IF you want to shoot gongs and paper faces waaay out there, and not critters.

Hmmm...I shoot both the Lee 405 HB an old 440 gr. Ohaus RNFP with both BP and smokeless from my Uberti Highwall and either will consistently print into 6" @ 300M. That's max distance for available at our club range and I haven't yet been able to try the Uberti any farther out, however, I have obtained some pretty decent groups with the 440 grainer at 400 and 500 yards from a Pedersoli RB (1-18 twist). If I were looking to compete, though, I believe I'd be looking to something in the 500-525 gr. range.

Bill

[rfd]

... If I were looking to compete, though, I believe I'd be looking to something in the 500-525 gr. range. ...

yep, exactly. just look at what the top guns are shooting. they spent a lotta time, energy and money at the bpcr game. nothing more to say 'bout dat, but to each their own.

[country gent]

Would recomend you check and see what the twist is before "jumping" in to deep. 1-20 or 1-21 are going to be rough to get the long bullets stabilized completely at the ussuall velociteies. 1-18 does good and is used by alot but also 1-16 is slowly becoming popular. If you got a good price on the rifle having it sleeved or rebarreled to a 1-18 or 1-16 twist cures all your issues. Look at the shorter bullets for wieght. A heavy round nose can be very effective and slightly shorter than postell or money bullets are. Some of these bullets being used now are 1 7/16 to 1 1/2 inches long. Look for something 1 1/4-1 5/16 long to try in 1-20 twist. To check twist start a patch wrapped jag into rifling good ( rod thru from muzzle) wrap a piece of masking tape around rod with edge touching muzzle and leave a tail. Pull out slowly and steady until tail has made 1 turn and measure distance. This is the rate of twist in your barrel. You also want to slug the barrel to get the proper fit of the bullet. ! issue with these slow twist barrels can be they are still throated for long heavy bullets meaning the shorter lighter bullets may not be able to reach to the rifling when loaded. Keep in mind that several things determine twist rate needed. Bullet length, velocity, and bullet dia all factor into this. You can experiment with bullets and loads testing to see what works, But that can be alot of work.

[Chill Wills]

I guess it would be good to start out with I was wanting to go to 1000 yards but 600 better than nothing I would like to a Shiloh or csharps but cant afford it right now I will check out the lyman 457193 thanks for all the info

Howell1000, Well, You have a rifle and you need a place to shoot and some good sights. With those three things you can learn a lot and take the game a long way. You can also learn enough to really know what you might want to get later as you progress - if the long range BPCR bug really gets you.

Don't rule out the 45cal 20 twist! It ruled in 1874 and is good as it ever was. By today's standard a 20 is slow.... but. If someone thinks the 20 twist is slow you should see the Long Range records set with 22 twist Springfield in Military class.
Michael Rix

[howell1000]

Howell1000, Well, You have a rifle and you need a place to shoot and some good sights. With those three things you can learn a lot and take the game a long way. You can also learn enough to really know what you might want to get later as you progress - if the long range BPCR bug really gets you.

Don't rule out the 45cal 20 twist! It ruled in 1874 and is good as it ever was. By today's standard a 20 is slow.... but. If someone thinks the 20 twist is slow you should see the Long Range records set with 22 twist Springfield in Military class.
Michael Rix

thanks for all the info on this rifle . its pretty hard to find anything over 200 yards in WV might look in Ohio thanks a lot for the info

[montana_charlie]

The Army tested the .45/70 1873 Trapdoor, and hit the target at a range of 2,500 yards.
The rate of twist on that rifle was (probably) 1 in 22 inches.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/843705/posts

[Elmo 1]

I do not know the twist but I shot a Browning BPCR in black powder silhouette matches. I used a 520 grain bullet and 68 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 powder. The last match I hit ten of ten Rams at 550 yards and had about an 8" group as well as I could tell being that it was one shot on each of ten targets. They had an elephant at 800 meters and I could hit it very well. I was shooting a Hadley eye piece and a shavers front apature. The powder was compressed. I do not remember the mold number but it had a short flat nose and a lot of grease grooves. I let the mold go with the rifle when I sold it.
Elmo

[polebilly]

You don't say where in WV. If you're in north central WV probably the best bet is McDonald sportsman Club in McDonald, PA. They have a full length silhouette match on first Saturdays april to November. Sadly for a state with such a shooting heritage we are woefully lacking in proper ranges and participation in the shooting sports.