Long range boolit design

[tazman]

I keep hearing reference to different boolit designs being a lot better at distance than wadcutters. I have no doubts that this is true. My question is, which boolit designs are best for shooting 50-100 yards?

I am shooting 38 special and 357 mag in revolvers and may be getting a lever action. Specific recommendations would be appreciated.

[jcren]

I would suggest the venerable 158 swc. The nose sets up cavitation that prevents wc tumbling, excellent bearing surface, and big meplant stopping power. I have a 38 snub that will amaze most folks at 50 yards with the lee tl version of this bullet.

[BCgunworks]

The longer and sleeker the design the better..(higher bc)..short and blunt won't do so well as it goes trans sonic.....(lower bc)

[dubber123]

I have gotten my best groups from the 360640 solid design. Mine was cut by BRP, and weighs 150 grains. It has outshot most other designs by a fair margin. I have NOT tested past 50 yds. though. The Lyman 358311 RN shoots nearly as well and is common as dirt. The 358156 shoots well in hotter magnum loads. The RCBS 180 SIL boolit is a winner, and is purposely designed for longer range use.

I have gotten enough 1" 50 yd. iron sight groups to feel it is to be expected from the RCBS 200 RF, but that is a very long nosed boolit and only fits in my F/A 353. Nope, can't do it every time, but I'm not that good, and it still happens quite a bit. :)

[paul h]

I'm a big fan of the ogival wadcutter aka LBT LFN or as mentioned the Mihec 640. I've shot 1 1/2" groups at 100 yds with a 200 gr WFN in a 357 Herrett contender, and with a 310 gr LFN in my 480 SRH. I no longer have my contender or an accurate scoped 357 revolver but would expect the 360640 MP mold to be an excellent choice.

[Hickok]

The Keith/Lyman 358429 has always shot well for me at longer distances, but I use it in a S&W Model 19 and a S&W 686. Some .357 require this boolit to be seated deep and crimped over the front edge of the driving band in order to chamber.

[JHeath]

The longer and sleeker the design the better..(higher bc)..short and blunt won't do so well as it goes trans sonic.....(lower bc)

Really? I read the opposite. That long-nosed rifle bullets yaw badly as they slow to subsonic, and short fat bullets less so. Which would explain BPCRs shooting fairly predictably with tang sights cranked up to mortar-like trajectories, at ranges that would make a .308/180 bt keyhole. No?

[BCgunworks]

Really? I read the opposite. That long-nosed rifle bullets yaw badly as they slow to subsonic, and short fat bullets less so. Which would explain BPCRs shooting fairly predictably with tang sights cranked up to mortar-like trajectories, at ranges that would make a .308/180 bt keyhole. No?

.....that's the entire idea behind vld type bullets....no their not lead.

[BCgunworks]

For a lead bullet for 357 I would look at a truncated or Lrn 158-180

[tazman]

Sounds like one of the 180 grain silhouette boolits might be the way to go. They have a kind of tapered round/flat point that is conical and narrow tipped. Thoughts?

[GabbyM]

My most accurate 100 yard boolit in my 38 Specials is the Magma 150 gr flat base truncated cone.
My favorite 38 Special boolit is a copy of Lymans 358429 by NOE or MiHec. Can't recall without checking. It weighs in at 177 grains. If I had to knock down a steel plate the heavier bullet would definitely get the nod. Plenty of old favorite bullets out there that shoot way better than I do. Getting a mold that drops pretty bullets is important.

[GabbyM]

Note how the 150 SWC Lyman 358477 is not cast as pretty as the Magma 150 TC. This is typical of bullets dropped from the different molds. The pretty Magma bullets usually will shoot better and I think it's all in the sharp edges of base and bands. This is more an individual mold thing as I have Lyman molds that cast pretty bullets and Magma molds that are hard to fill out bands. The TC design with shallow crimp grove and no band edges is inherently easy to cast. I have a 44 caliber Saeco TC mold that also cast pretty bullets.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51712&d=1285898621

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50473&d=1245807019

[apen]

Really? I read the opposite. That long-nosed rifle bullets yaw badly as they slow to subsonic, and short fat bullets less so. Which would explain BPCRs shooting fairly predictably with tang sights cranked up to mortar-like trajectories, at ranges that would make a .308/180 bt keyhole. No?

The "noses" on the bullets winning in HP and F-T/R are air encased in copper. The little fat 168 sierra is a notorious keyholer after 700 yards. The 175 sierra will beat the pants of the 168 after 700 yards, and the even longer 185 berger will beat the 175 SmK.

[ErnieBishop]

I use the 200 Hybrids and the JLK 180 Longtails for 1000 yard TR.

[apen]

Wow an f classer on the site. I may try some of those heavier bullets when I get enough throat eroded. Using a 185 Berger LRBT with 45.0 varget....2740...that's with 30"

[Scharfschuetze]

My question is, which boolit designs are best for shooting 50-100 yards?

I'm quite fond of using Saeco 180 grain .358" diameter boolits (or commercial equivalents) in my 357 Magnum revolvers for long range shooting. For a revolver, this is a pretty slippery boolit aerodynamically and it does well out to 200 yards in my 6" barreled S&W revolvers. It's also my go to boolit for use in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy rifle and it holds well to about 400 yards. It would probably be accurate further, but I run out of elevation on the aperture sight at about 400 yards.

For a jacketed bullet, the 180 grain Remington scalloped hollow point bullet is a very good performer also.

[Lead Fred]

Ideal 358439

Its a truncated cone, but they sure do fly far.

The 358429 is flat nosed

[ErnieBishop]

Not really a wow, more like goofing with F-Class. Have shot TR & Open at 1K, but only at the Nationals and the World match that was held a Raton (NRA Whittington Center) several years ago. F-Class is probably the fastest growing LR sport.
Are you a Palma shooter?

Wow an f classer on the site. I may try some of those heavier bullets when I get enough throat eroded. Using a 185 Berger LRBT with 45.0 varget....2740...that's with 30"

[BCgunworks]

To add more confusion to the mix.....I was using 125 xtp in the 357 franken ruger to shoot pdogs at almost 400 yards.....
for 50-100....the only basic bullet design that more than likely would fail would be a double ended waddcutter.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive yet to find an lfn that doesn't fly well even at 2 or 300 yards. Most truncate nosed bullets fly well. Some swcs do well to but not all of them, the ones that do are close to the real keith design. Most wfns and wlfns give up the ghost after 50 yards and about all of them do past a 100.

[44man]

The XTP's are the most accurate bullets I ever shot, except the Hornady SIL bullet will match it. No other brand came close.
The truncated cone is a close match and in my big bores I have no problems getting accuracy to 547 yards using WFN boolits of 80% or more meplats. I have no place to shoot farther. Twist and spin RPM's are what counts.
Long ago with my scoped 27 the 358156 HP was deadly to 100 or more. Some Keith style boolits DO shoot although I have turned away from most.
No, the shoulder does not create turbulence in air or cut flesh as the wave from the nose keeps everything away from the shoulder. What happens to a full WC, I don't know, maybe it is turbulence? Most are so soft the edge wipes off at the cone and gets a crooked start. They also lead up a bore fast. I never shot the things.

[Whiterabbit]

Consider that there may be other factors at play as well. I'm shooting barnes bullets right now and they don't fly as well as a ranch dog WFN.

In my gun, this:

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC460435RF/bullet/sketch.jpg

Flies better at 100 yards than this:

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/179/179484.jpg

Or either of these:

http://www.namlhunt.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/2922140/2434885_orig.jpg?377

And look at how "aerodynamic" these must be, especially the one on the left!

My ranchdogs probably have the Ballistic Coefficient of a can of Coke. Fly great at 100 yards.

[dubber123]

Sounds like one of the 180 grain silhouette boolits might be the way to go. They have a kind of tapered round/flat point that is conical and narrow tipped. Thoughts?

The RCBS 180 SIL is VERY accurate for me. I know a fellow I trust that routinely shoots very small 200 meter groups from a .357 revolver, and he favors this boolit. He was Ca state silhouette champ at least once. Do be aware my copy casts at 198 grains lubed with a gas check out of WW's. Pretty heavy for a lot of .357's.

[Groo]

Groo here
Unless you are hunting or need to cut a clean hole in a target, the long round nose [ like the original RN 38spec, 245gr 44spec, or the 45-70 500gr ]
Will shoot very well, and were used for many years.
The longer boolet seems to groove better , and the RN slow less at range.

[fecmech]

In the .38 spl/.357 as others have mentioned the RN and TC designs fly well. You mentioned getting a lever gun and I did quite a bit of 200 yd shooting with mine. I have used both Rossi's (30" twist) and Winchester (16" twist) and one of the more accurate bullets for the Rossi at 200 yds was the RCBS 124 9MM TC design and the Lee 120 TC. The Winchester did well with the 358429 but the Rossi's did not, as the twist was too slow. The Rossi's were good to 100 with the Keith but that was at max loadings of 296. If you are leaning towards the RCBS 180 silhouette bullet make sure your rifle has the twist for it as that is a long bullet.

[Messy bear]

Consider that there may be other factors at play as well. I'm shooting barnes bullets right now and they don't fly as well as a ranch dog WFN.

In my gun, this:

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC460435RF/bullet/sketch.jpg

Flies better at 100 yards than this:

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/179/179484.jpg

Or either of these:

http://www.namlhunt.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/2922140/2434885_orig.jpg?377

And look at how "aerodynamic" these must be, especially the one on the left!

My ranchdogs probably have the Ballistic Coefficient of a can of Coke. Fly great at 100 yards.

Not to step on toes, but that is closer to an lfn than anything. IIRC the definition of lfn is .130" under dia. A wfn is .090" under dia. Big diference -a lfn almost always shoots long range. You should be able to run that ranch dog at any range because its basically a lfn.

[Whiterabbit]

Not stepping on MY toes at all.... :) A rose by any other name, in this case, flies like gangbusters at 100 yards.

Those pointy coppery ones..... not so much.

[Whiterabbit]

Not stepping on MY toes at all.... :) A rose by any other name, in this case, flies like gangbusters at 100 yards.

I'm no great pistol shooter, but here's my best at 100 yards with the ranch dogs

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125707&d=1419923889

[tazman]

The rifle I am looking at is a Rossi(1 in 30 twist). I won't be shooting it beyond 100 yards as my eyes limit what I can do.
I have been experimenting lately with a 155 grain round nose boolit designed for 9mm in my handguns. It is a discontinued Lee mold from a custom buy. It resembles their 125 2R boolit except being much longer and heavier. It drops at 358 and a bit for me. I loaded up some 38 specials with 3.5 grains of Bullseye and took them to the range today. Offhand at 10 yards I was getting 1.5 inch groups consistently. I put it on a rest and got 1.0 inch groups twice before I stopped. I think this one loaded in 357mag at appropriate speeds might work really well in the rifle. Maybe with PB gas checks.
My other options currently on hand are the NOE 358-155TC-elco and the Lee C358-158-swc. I may end up getting a 358311 just for grins.

[Scharfschuetze]

The rifle I am looking at is a Rossi(1 in 30 twist). I won't be shooting it beyond 100 yards as my eyes limit what I can do.

Taz, if I may: let me suggest a solid topped rifle such as the Marlin for your endevour. The solid top will allow the easy fitting of a scope given your eye issue and the faster twist rifling will stabilize the 180 and heavier boolits very well out to several hundred yards.

The heavy boolits from a rifle hold up much better for me at longer ranges and require substantially less wind induced deflection.


I have been experimenting lately with a 155 grain round nose boolit designed for 9mm in my handguns.

I've been having good success with the 146 grain 9mm truncated cone design boolit in my 38 and 357 revolvers. Sized to .358," it holds very well at 50 and 100 yards and groups as tight or tighter as SWC designs in my Model 14, 19 and 28 Smith & Wessons.

[tazman]

So, perhaps I should be looking at a Henry or an older Marlin.

[paul h]

Another option

http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMagazine77357/images/7405.jpg

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/files/2015/07/Ruger357_3-300x200.jpg

I believe it has a 1-16 twist.

[Outpost75]

John Kort did some pretty fair shooting at 200 yards with his Marlin 1894 Cowboy rifle in .44-40 with traditional design bullets.

At our range we shoot fixed sight cowboy revolvers on a 12" steel gong at 100 yards and the high shooter made 38 hits out of 40 with an original black powder frame 7-1/2" barrel .44-40 Colt Single Action Frontier Six Shooter firing black powder loads with the same bullet from Accurate molds, cast 1:40 wit SPG lube and 36 grains of Swiss 3F.

152092152093

[dubber123]

The old 358311 you mentioned getting "just for grins" averaged under 2" for 6 shots at 50 yds from my iron sighted 6" M14. Once in a while one would sneak over, but that was undoubtedly me. I shot a pretty warm Power Pistol load. It's not a sexy boolit, but it shoots very well.

[Artful]

for paper punching with a 38/357 the 35811, RCBS 180 gr Sil, even RCBS 200 FRN all work well at distance. For test accuracy if it stays either all subsonic till target impact or stays all supersonic until impact it's better.

[tazman]

I just got a reply to an email I sent Henry concerning the twist rate of their 357 mag rifles. They stated the twist rate was 1 in 16 for all their 357 mag rifles.
It sounds like that would stabilize any boolit weight I cared to use in it.
I got to shoot my neighbor's Henry Big Boy in 45 LC. It is an excellent rifle. Smooth and accurate with both cast and jacketed.

[Scharfschuetze]

Sounds like a plan Taz.

[44man]

My secret with the RD boolit is Felix lube. Yeah, yeah, you want mule snot but give it a chance.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree it looks more like a lfn and is called a round flat.
Not to step on toes, but that is closer to an lfn than anything. IIRC the definition of lfn is .130" under dia. A wfn is .090" under dia. Big diference -a lfn almost always shoots long range. You should be able to run that ranch dog at any range because its basically a lfn.

[Lloyd Smale]

I know some argue (44man:)) but ive done a pile of long range shooting with sixguns. Long range to me is 300 or more yards and usually 500 or more. Ive tested many wfns and so has my buddy and weve both been to a number of linebaugh seminars and participated in the long range shoot which is a steal buffalo 2/3s sized at a 1000 yards (or close to it). Ive never seen a wfn that will make the trip. Ive never seen a wfn that made it to 300 yards let alone a 1000. Im not saying it cant be done but ive never seen it and tried ALOT of different calibers and bullets. Class of the field is an lfn. Personaly I cant see why anyone would fool with anything else. Yes I like an old keith bullet but mostly anymore there used for short range hunting and beer can rolling. If im looking for serious accuracy be it short or long its an lfn. Why would I even waste 50 bucks taking a chance on a wfn mold when an lfn is usually more accurate, flys better and kills game just as well.

Ive heard all the storys about how wfns kill better. Maybe so but I haven't seen it personaly and ive shot lots of game with cast bullets. Ive also never experienced troubles with kieths do to slamming into the forcing cone but then I don't keep a gun around that's built that sloppy. Ive killed lots of animals with keiths too and there just as deadly as a lfn or wfn and most of them fly better then an wfn (but not all) I will admit though that there a bit harder to find accuracy with or maybe better said would be that its sometimes tough to find a swc that's designed properly. Funny thing is nobody seems to know what makes one good and one bad. It doesn't take but a tiny change in a swc bullet to make a big difference in accuracy. the true keiths seem to do well most of the time but what a real keith is is even up for debate. Take for instance the keiths that veral used to make. I have and had quite a few of those molds when he was still making them. Some shot well but they sure didn't look like what a keith bullet should look like in my book other then the 3 equal driving bands. Seems his nose was shorter and a bit bigger then the lyman versions. Closest ive found to a real keith is the rcbs 250kt. Its even more of a keith then the lyman but funny thing is the square lube grove lyman outshoots it in all of my guns. Then make a small change like lyman did with the rounded lube grove and turn a great bullet into a mediocre bullet.

Im not a veral smith cheerleader. Not a huge fan of his molds either but ill give him credit where credit is due. I don't know if he really invented the lfn but he sure made it into a household word and his lfn designs just plain work. Ive yet to find an lbt lfn bullet that didn't fly well and was exceptionally accurate. Casting world owes him a big thank you for that.

[ericp]

I'm very fond of NOE's copy of the 358429, shoots great to silhouette ranges in the 357 Mag. In the Max I like it's big brother, the 358627.


Eric