Ball and patch or real bullet on deer

[trapper9260]

I have been shooting ball and patch in my 50cal side hammer and I have a hard time to have the deer to drop where I hit them, that is also in the neck.I lost 2 deer this season and that is use of ball and patch and lost some in the past also.Would real bullet or mini do a better job of drop the deer ?I know shot placement is the main thing and I been doing that.Just that for the years I did not notice it till this year.My brother said I have been lost of too many and should go with sabots, but since I also have some real bullets.Any ideas from you all.Of what will work the best?

[Edward]

Try behind the shoulder ,heart /lung area your patched ball is like my arrow and the neck is not a vital area .The most /largest needed organs are located behind the shoulder ,not in front of it . If you shoot them there it is the best percentage shot and it works most all the time even with the patched round ball which I also shoot . It is also taught in most hunter/education classes . Good luck hunting!

[trapper9260]

I have shot one the start of this season that was where you stated it was the first one and it drop then was flopping and then got back up the left and could not find it.I have shot them in the neck in the past and drop not far from less then 10 yards to about 40 yards on the normal.Also shot them in the lung area where you stated. I have shot them from less then 10 yards away to 120 yards and sometime I got them and shot where you stated.I end up got the 120 yard shot .The 2 this season was from 40 the first to 20 yards.the first was where you stated and then 2nd was the neck area.one the first did not left and blood trail and the 2nd left some but stop after.I use a Navy Arms Hawkins 50 cal. side hammer.I also have a CVA Deer stalker 50 cal. side hammer but have not use it much.

[rfd]

yes, shot placement is always important, particularly with small .50 caliber ml. i'd probably want a .54 an up when using a prb, that's one reason why i have a .58 musket.

imo when it comes to hunting for hogs, deer and other such critters, the extra heavy 320 grain lee REAL .50 bullet is the better route to take as it packs far more energy than a patched 180 grain .50 round ball. if that 320 don't take down a deer right quick with decent shot placement, i'd be purty surprised.

[swathdiver]

Well, what powder and powder charge are you using? Are you lubricating the patch and if so, with what? A .50 Caliber round ball is plenty enough for white tail deer anywhere and most other game in North America.

[451 Pete]

Adding just a bit to what has been said above, keep in mind that what your barrel will shoot accurately is determined by the twist rate of that barrel. A slow twist, like a 1-60 is geared to shooting a patch and ball where a fast twist rate will stabilize a longer projectile like a sabot or bullet. If it will not shoot accurately then hunting with it is not an option.

Pete

[bob208]

I have been dropping deer with a .45 round ball. it is like others have said you have to hit them right. the neck is not a good play unless you can break the spine. more power and bigger bullets does not make up for poor shooting.

[gnoahhh]

I have been dropping deer with a .45 round ball. it is like others have said you have to hit them right. the neck is not a good play unless you can break the spine. more power and bigger bullets does not make up for poor shooting.

Bingo. I killed one on Saturday at around 40 yards with a .45 round ball, driven by 60 grains FFFg, with one shot in the neck just forward of the shoulder. Broke his spinal column and he dropped right there. Done. A lot of people ballyhoo the neck shot (and I'm one of them) but it is admittedly a tricky shot. A ball in the neck likely won't kill quickly (nor will a .30-06 even) unless the spinal column is hit. Tear the heck out of muscles/trachea/esophagus and you will guarantee the death of the deer, just not right there and likely a day or so later at the place of its choosing. The spinal column is a darned small target, and one needs to know exactly how it lies inside of a deer's neck.

The safest target is through the shoulder or right behind the shoulder blade into the heart/lung area. It will probably run a ways, but not so far that you won't find it laying there ready for gutting.

[rodwha]

I had been shooting deer in the neck with a .270 Win and had all drop DRT. Now I have a .50 cal Lyman Derrstalker that I'll likely be using a PRB or 320 grn REAL. I wondered about the neck shot as I doubt a muzzleloader projectile will have the hydrostatic shock that modern high power rifle bullets do.

The vitals are a for sure thing, though a bit of tracking may be necessary.

[OverMax]

My observations.
The small the caliber the more accurate one has to be in making their initial first shot. I shoot a 45 p/B and have never lost a deer due to my ability to either break a back spine or putting a ball into the lower neck area thus again breaking their neck bone. Going to a larger caliber naturally leaves a larger wound for better bleed out when having to make those so so I hope it hits there distant kind'a shots. On the other hand. What many black powder enthusiasts don't realize. Unlike modern. Best not hurry a shot. Or one often can plan on doing some tracking when they do.

[Omnivore]

I've never lost a deer hit with a 50 cal round ball. I've had to track a deer once or twice, but never lost one.

Unless you upset the central nervous system, they're going to run when hit. The heart/lung cavity is a much larger target than the spine, and is a sure kill. If your goal is DRT, then you're thinking wrong, says I.

if you are sure to hit the base of the skull, or the spine farther back in the neck, then go ahead and take that shot. You'd better have practiced and practiced so you KNOW that that's a sure shot on a three inch or smaller target. Otherwise you'd best stay with the heart/lung cavity. Know the deer's anatomy. If you have a side profile, put a ball through both shoulders. It'll destroy both lungs and substantially disable the mechanical ability to run. A heart shot is best, as you'll usually not destroy any other meat, but a deer with a blown heart will still run. If you don't trust your ability to track, you might should back up, think again, start over; go hunting with someone skilled in tracking.

I'm not convinced that a REAL bullet would do any better than a round ball. The ball typically just drills a half inch hole all the way through. If it hits the shoulder it'll shatter bone and then pass through. What's a REAL bullet going to do other than that? It'll hit at a lower velocity, most likely, and it will penetrate farther because of it's greater mass, but since a ball will typically pass clean through, what more penetration do you want? On the other hand, if you find a load for the REAL that shoots well, there'd be no reason not to use it. Use whatever load you have most confidence in, regarding hitting what you aim for.

[Good Cheer]

Trapper,
Are you shooting a TC, GM or other make of barrel that you really trust the breech?
The reason I ask is why not double tap and cut down the chances of a runaway?
That bigger is better and two holes are better than one is a for sure thing on neck shots. And better than any one boolit of the same diameter.
So, if you can get good enough accuracy my vote would be "loadin' fer bar" before using the REAL. Not saying I got a dang thang against REAL's either.

Besides, it's traditional, it's historically correct.
And to avoid unnecessary suffering, it's even politically correct (where'd that spittoon go?).
You just caint get no better than that!

[Toymaker]

Patch and ball has dropped them where they were hit since 1989. 54 caliber CVA Hawkins with 65 grains FFg. Never had a shot over 50 yards. Hit them in the shoulder taking out that leg and driving bone and bullet into the heart/lungs. Down and done.

[rodwha]

Out of curiosity does one seat one ball and then the other or both together after the first is started? Seems the way I understood it was one had a ball loaded and were a bear crossed an additional ball was set down the bore.

Any chance, without air able to escape so easily, that the second ball would "bounce" off of the first?

[gnoahhh]

Huh? I never heard of such a thing as a viable hunting load. I tried it once with two balls (and a reduced powder charge) and with each shot neither ball from each discharge hit anywhere close to where I was aiming. I'll take accuracy over multiple questionable hits any day.

[trapper9260]

Ok I have run a tight patch down the barrel and for a complete turn if I get it right is 24 1/4" I had mark the ram rod with a tight patch and push it to the bottom of the barrel and then mark the rod at the end of the barrel and a mark for the front sight and then pull slow upward and when the line where the front sight I made is in line .I take a tape and see how long it is and this is what I got ,the 24 1/4" ,the total inside lenght of the barrel is 25".50 cal..I hope this will help for you all that is trying to help me and thank you in advance for the help.I know alot say about the twist so that is what I did to see what was the complete turn on it is and let you all know on it to try to give you more information.

[roverboy]

No offense to round ball fans but, I like heavier conicals. I've used patched round balls but, like conicals better. By the way, the 2 round balls in one load used to be a recommended load by T/C.

[Omnivore]

A 24" twist is for conicals. A round ball twist is 60" to 70". The compromise twist is 48". You may get decent results with round-ball in a 24" twist barrel, but is less likely. Sidelocks don’t commonly have the fast, 24” twist (in-lines often do) but I suppose anything is possible. The 24" twist gun is built for heavy sabot loads or full diameter conicals heavier than about 300 grains. My 48" twist Lyman shoots 300+ grain conicals OK, but without a bunch more experimentation I prefer patched ball. Your mileage will vary.

Once you get up to fifty caliber, I'd say the best load for deer is that which shoots most accurately for you, all other considerations being distant secondary ones.

You have to spend some quality time testing different loads for accuracy before you take to the hunting fields. You need a set-up that you can trust absolutely, so if you miss your aiming point you know it was your fault. Right before hunting season is no time to start asking about the right load, I'm sorry to say. You should have that figured out by mid summer, so you have some time to practice with that load before hunting season.

Also keep in mind that the shot which counts is that one shot you take from a cold, clean bore. Depending on your rifle and specific load, your Point Of Impact (POI) may shift considerably when shooting a warm, fouled bore. Therefore I have had to be very careful to treat my barrel bore just so, for every shot, when evaluating a load or sighting in. You may find a load that shoots to the same POI regardless, whether it’s the first shot or the tenth, without cleaning in between, but don't count on it.

Haven’t tried double ball. You’d certainly have to seat them at the same time, or the trapped air would be a problem. It seems like more of a stunt than a valuable load, but not having tried it, what do I know? Maybe it’s the bloody bee’s knees and I’ve been missing out on something wonderful, but I doubt it. So you have two balls, each of which are going to be traveling slower than a single ball (two 50 cal balls is about 360 grains payload), and the two balls will certainly diverge as they leave the barrel. Upon impact, each ball will hit with less energy than a single ball would have. That would make it an effective close-range load for self defense, I suppose, but not likely to be useful at longer distances. I could be totally wrong; let's see someone's 100 yard, double-ball targets as evidence.

[rfd]

i agree - 24" fast twist is for bullets and typically not at all good with prb's.

[trapper9260]

I had tested it before the season in the summer after I had the front sight change due to it broke on me and I had alway shot ball and patch.I only shot it with one ball.i always went for the vital spot behind the front leg and got them down right away and not other times.I have take them down with a neck shot in the past also with the same gun.The 120 yard shot I took a buck down with the same gun.but not like I was hopen for. Now this year for all that have happened that is why i am asking now about this and looking to learn from it also.thank you.

[rodwha]

I had to run the numbers and used Hodgdon's T7 powder with a volume of 80 grns of 2F.

For a 177 grn .490" PRB there's a posted velocity of 1842 fps. Two balls weigh 354 grns so I looked at various 350 grn bullets/conicals. The velocities go from 1423 to 1526 fps. No doubt this is due to the friction the various projectiles give. As a tight patch will give a nice bit of friction, and with two I'd guess it would give a bit more I used the higher velocity of 1526 fps.

I zeroed them at 75 yds and used a max range of 125 yds. I had it give me numbers in 25 yd increments. This is what my ballistics app gave me:

One ball at 1842/1334, 996, 743, 565, 453, 384 with drop of 0.5", 0.8", 0.0, -2.3", -6.5"

One ball at 1526/915, 683, 526, 430, 369, 325 with drop of 0.9", 1.3", 0.0, -3.2", -8.8"

Not as different out at 100-125 yds as I would have imagined. Oh, and used a BC of 0.069 for a .490" ball.

Too bad they have any REAL data...

[rodwha]

I went back and changed the zeroed range to 100 yds and found the faster ball to have dropped to -3.6" and the slower balls to -4.7" at 125 yds.

[Ramjet-SS]

Well I want to ask this; The RB is it a commercially purchased or are you pouring you're own?

If you are making your own what type lead are you using?

I am asking this as I have shot several deer and elk with my 58 Caliber Flint Lock and my under hammer with Forsyth rifling and really slow twist one turn in about 8 feet. Velocity is impressive upwards of 1700 FPS in every case the ball was found under the opposit hide with diameter of about 1.25+" every ball is a very soft lead.

Now I would think you could run that gun if the twist is 1:66 up to about 90-95 grains of FFg and drive that RB harder that would be devastating on a deer hit in boiler room.

[trapper9260]

A 24" twist is for conicals. A round ball twist is 60" to 70". The compromise twist is 48". You may get decent results with round-ball in a 24" twist barrel, but is less likely. Sidelocks don’t commonly have the fast, 24” twist (in-lines often do) but I suppose anything is possible. The 24" twist gun is built for heavy sabot loads or full diameter conicals heavier than about 300 grains. My 48" twist Lyman shoots 300+ grain conicals OK, but without a bunch more experimentation I prefer patched ball. Your mileage will vary.

Once you get up to fifty caliber, I'd say the best load for deer is that which shoots most accurately for you, all other considerations being distant secondary ones.

You have to spend some quality time testing different loads for accuracy before you take to the hunting fields. You need a set-up that you can trust absolutely, so if you miss your aiming point you know it was your fault. Right before hunting season is no time to start asking about the right load, I'm sorry to say. You should have that figured out by mid summer, so you have some time to practice with that load before hunting season.

Also keep in mind that the shot which counts is that one shot you take from a cold, clean bore. Depending on your rifle and specific load, your Point Of Impact (POI) may shift considerably when shooting a warm, fouled bore. Therefore I have had to be very careful to treat my barrel bore just so, for every shot, when evaluating a load or sighting in. You may find a load that shoots to the same POI regardless, whether it’s the first shot or the tenth, without cleaning in between, but don't count on it.

Haven’t tried double ball. You’d certainly have to seat them at the same time, or the trapped air would be a problem. It seems like more of a stunt than a valuable load, but not having tried it, what do I know? Maybe it’s the bloody bee’s knees and I’ve been missing out on something wonderful, but I doubt it. So you have two balls, each of which are going to be traveling slower than a single ball (two 50 cal balls is about 360 grains payload), and the two balls will certainly diverge as they leave the barrel. Upon impact, each ball will hit with less energy than a single ball would have. That would make it an effective close-range load for self defense, I suppose, but not likely to be useful at longer distances. I could be totally wrong; let's see someone's 100 yard, double-ball targets as evidence.

Thank you for the help you are given me .I like to ask then will this be the one you are are talking about that I would be best to use then it is a Lee Mold DC 50cal-320. The one I do have is 250 of Lee I had got it years ago.But it drops from 256 to 257 soft lead the BHN is about 6.

[Lead Fred]

My 1/60 Rice barrel spits out 45 cal round ball @ 2033fps

The deer dont know what hit them

Does the same job a 30-30 would do, except way cooler

[mooman76]

The 50 PRB is more than big enough for deer. Some people even use them on elk. It may not put them down on the spot but if you do your part, it won't go far.

[Geezer in NH]

I have been shooting ball and patch in my 50cal side hammer and I have a hard time to have the deer to drop where I hit them, that is also in the neck.I lost 2 deer this season and that is use of ball and patch and lost some in the past also.Would real bullet or mini do a better job of drop the deer ?I know shot placement is the main thing and I been doing that.Just that for the years I did not notice it till this year.My brother said I have been lost of too many and should go with sabots, but since I also have some real bullets.Any ideas from you all.Of what will work the best?

Not for nothing but try shooting them in the chest for a lung or heart shot.

Lost 2 deer this year YOU are the problem when I wound a deer the tag gets torn up THEN.

This post sickens me.

[swathdiver]

You still didn't say what powder and charge you were using...

[rfd]

most anything done with a prb will require smarts on the hunter's part, it's about a step or so up from using a trad bow, imho.

[Lonegun1894]

I had tested it before the season in the summer after I had the front sight change due to it broke on me and I had alway shot ball and patch.I only shot it with one ball.i always went for the vital spot behind the front leg and got them down right away and not other times.I have take them down with a neck shot in the past also with the same gun.The 120 yard shot I took a buck down with the same gun.but not like I was hopen for. Now this year for all that have happened that is why i am asking now about this and looking to learn from it also.thank you.

Are you letting them have a few minutes to bleed out in peace, or chasing them immediately and giving them the adrenaline rush they need to run to the next county? Give them time, say 5-10 minutes, and I have been told that some people prefer to give them half an hour. Also, I use a round ball in all my muzzleloaders (.50s and .54s) and have never had any trouble getting a deer or hog down. If you aren't a good tracker yet, and assuming you're using a full power load, have you considered hitting them in the shoulder blade to break them down on the spot? Yes, it will waste some meat, but that beats going out and losing the whole animal and leaving it to suffer and die because you blew a shot. Either way, I would say to stay with the heart/lung shot, because the neck shot is too iffy for many/most hunters, and I hate to say this, but since you've lost 2 this season, and have said it has happened before too, but that includes you. I won't take it either, and my MLs give me 3-4" groups at 100 yds depending on which gun we're talking about. I know I CAN take a neck/head shot out to 50+ yds, but why risk wounding an animal if it moves slightly, when I can place the same RB into the heart/lungs and KNOW I am not causing unnecessary suffering?

[Lonegun1894]

Not for nothing but try shooting them in the chest for a lung or heart shot.

Lost 2 deer this year YOU are the problem when I wound a deer the tag gets torn up THEN.

This post sickens me.

EXACTLY!!! I couldn't agree more.

[trapper9260]

You still didn't say what powder and charge you were using...

Here is the information you asking me I am usen American pioneer powder FFG 80gr Hornady 50cal .490 ball patch .010 and .015 and lube is Bore butter by TC
Thank you

[trapper9260]

Not for nothing but try shooting them in the chest for a lung or heart shot.

Lost 2 deer this year YOU are the problem when I wound a deer the tag gets torn up THEN.

This post sickens me.

The first one was a heart and lung shot.I had them go over 100yrds with the shot in the heart in the past.I am here to correct what mistakes I done and looking for help to do that .I was thinking this site is here to help and learn .There is no perfect world and i am one looking to learn that is why I am ask for help.

[rfd]

...The 120 yard shot I took a buck down with the same gun.but not like I was hopen for. ...

man, 100+ yards with a .50 prb for deer - dang! that's a hail mary shot if ever there was one, i don't care who's behind the trigger of a sidelock. *maybe* it would be a somewhat diff'rent story if a bullet (maxi, conical, real) was used, but even that's gonna be marginal. these kinda rifles are best at not much more than 50 yards or so, imho. else best think about one of those modern inlines things. ymmv.

[johnson1942]

a 1/24 is a very fast twist for a 50 cal, faster than even the sharps 50/90s with a badger barrel. lone star used a 1/24 twist and shot a 700 grain bullet in it. your gun was made for sabot and a bullet that is 350 to 400 grain. a 250 grain real bullet is way too small for that fast of twist as it will gyro one way or the other. you may get one or two hits in the spot your aiming at then comes a bad flier.your going to have to get some sabots with a very long commercial made pointed 45 cal bullet in it to shoot well, see if your out doors store has sme in the high 300 grain area. another cheaper way to go is get some orange mmp sabots off of the internet and then get some 400 grain .458 shortnosed 45/70 bullets and shoot them in mmp/s orange sabot. they will handle a 1/24 twist and shoot very very well. 80 grains of powder behind any thing suggested here is enough. i built my self a 1/23 twist 50 cal side lock heavy target rifle the shoots a paperpatched 720 grain bullet. shoots real good but im tired of casting that big of bullet and shooting it so im going to reline to a 45 and a slower twist. your gun was made so they could sell you a high end special sabot and bullet that kept them in the money. the best twist in a 50 for a sabot is a 1/32. then you can use about any sabot for a .451 bullet and use 250 grain 45 cal bullets and push them to 2200 ft per sec. in some guns. the math never lies as to length of bullet to twist rate for accracy.

[trapper9260]

man, 100+ yards with a .50 prb for deer - dang! that's a hail mary shot if ever there was one, i don't care who's behind the trigger of a sidelock. *maybe* it would be a somewhat diff'rent story if a bullet (maxi, conical, real) was used, but even that's gonna be marginal. these kinda rifles are best at not much more than 50 yards or so, imho. else best think about one of those modern inlines things. ymmv.
Ok thank you for your help.

[trapper9260]

a 1/24 is a very fast twist for a 50 cal, faster than even the sharps 50/90s with a badger barrel. lone star used a 1/24 twist and shot a 700 grain bullet in it. your gun was made for sabot and a bullet that is 350 to 400 grain. a 250 grain real bullet is way too small for that fast of twist as it will gyro one way or the other. you may get one or two hits in the spot your aiming at then comes a bad flier.your going to have to get some sabots with a very long commercial made pointed 45 cal bullet in it to shoot well, see if your out doors store has sme in the high 300 grain area. another cheaper way to go is get some orange mmp sabots off of the internet and then get some 400 grain .458 shortnosed 45/70 bullets and shoot them in mmp/s orange sabot. they will handle a 1/24 twist and shoot very very well. 80 grains of powder behind any thing suggested here is enough. i built my self a 1/23 twist 50 cal side lock heavy target rifle the shoots a paperpatched 720 grain bullet. shoots real good but im tired of casting that big of bullet and shooting it so im going to reline to a 45 and a slower twist. your gun was made so they could sell you a high end special sabot and bullet that kept them in the money. the best twist in a 50 for a sabot is a 1/32. then you can use about any sabot for a .451 bullet and use 250 grain 45 cal bullets and push them to 2200 ft per sec. in some guns. the math never lies as to length of bullet to twist rate for accracy.
Ok I will look into what you stated.May I ask will the Lee 320gr real bullet work then,since you stated for over 300gr..thank you

[johnson1942]

ok here is the results with the math. a 45 cal bullet .451 or .458 should be at leaste 1 inch long for the twist of your rifle. if you can find either diam of these bullets even with a long pointed nose to make it lighter in weight a 1 inch long 45 cal bullet in a sabot will shoot very well. now as to a 50 cal bullet lead or power belt it should be at leaste 1.3 long so that will be a heavy 50 cal bullet no matter what the shape. try buffalo arms, these should have somekind of bullet listed in 45 cal that would work in a sabot for you expect really really accracy if you follow this formula. also buffalo arms have .492 paper patch bullets and one 1/3 long wiill shoot well in your gun. may be too much recoil for your light weight rifle. if i were you i would go with a 45 cal bullet that is 1 inch long. if you cant find a .451 diam bullet like that then find a .458, lots of them around. remember mmp has a orange 50 cal sabot that takes a .458 bullet. expect really good accracy way way out their with this combp also. of course wipe between shots unless your useing blackhorn 209 powder. also dont go too big on the charge behind the bullet. i wouldnt go over 100 grains. remember with a 45 cal bullet in a sabot in your gun with 100 grains in it will be way more powerful that a 45/70. they use around 60 to 65 grains behind their bullets and they are very good game getters. yours with 100 grains would be like a sharps 45/110 and that is quite a gun. i have found for some reason muzzle loaders with the same bullet and charge as a sharp cartridge kick less for recoil, dont know why but all of mine do. dont give up, you have the math and science now, just put it together.

[trapper9260]

ok here is the results with the math. a 45 cal bullet .451 or .458 should be at leaste 1 inch long for the twist of your rifle. if you can find either diam of these bullets even with a long pointed nose to make it lighter in weight a 1 inch long 45 cal bullet in a sabot will shoot very well. now as to a 50 cal bullet lead or power belt it should be at leaste 1.3 long so that will be a heavy 50 cal bullet no matter what the shape. try buffalo arms, these should have somekind of bullet listed in 45 cal that would work in a sabot for you expect really really accracy if you follow this formula. also buffalo arms have .492 paper patch bullets and one 1/3 long wiill shoot well in your gun. may be too much recoil for your light weight rifle. if i were you i would go with a 45 cal bullet that is 1 inch long. if you cant find a .451 diam bullet like that then find a .458, lots of them around. remember mmp has a orange 50 cal sabot that takes a .458 bullet. expect really good accracy way way out their with this combp also. of course wipe between shots unless your useing blackhorn 209 powder. also dont go too big on the charge behind the bullet. i wouldnt go over 100 grains. remember with a 45 cal bullet in a sabot in your gun with 100 grains in it will be way more powerful that a 45/70. they use around 60 to 65 grains behind their bullets and they are very good game getters. yours with 100 grains would be like a sharps 45/110 and that is quite a gun. i have found for some reason muzzle loaders with the same bullet and charge as a sharp cartridge kick less for recoil, dont know why but all of mine do. dont give up, you have the math and science now, just put it together.

Hi thank you alot for all your help and work to help me get this right ,that way I will get more deer on the table, then feeding the coyotes.i do not like doing that I rather trap them then feed them.

[rodwha]

A patched ball with a rifle charge can be one hole group accurate at 100 yds as here are many fellow's that compete and do this on a regular basis. 125 yds isn't that difficult if you are using a combination that shoots well from your gun by you.

Unless you are very good at judging wind and figuring for it breezes can really do you bad out that far.

So far I am not one of those who can shoot that well, but then I've merely broken in my barrel and haven't worked on finding what my gun does best with. But then my barrel is also a 1:48" twist and likely won't be as good as a slower RB barrel will be. It did put 320 grn REALs in a nice tight group though.

[trapper9260]

A patched ball with a rifle charge can be one hole group accurate at 100 yds as here are many fellow's that compete and do this on a regular basis. 125 yds isn't that difficult if you are using a combination that shoots well from your gun by you.

Unless you are very good at judging wind and figuring for it breezes can really do you bad out that far.

So far I am not one of those who can shoot that well, but then I've merely broken in my barrel and haven't worked on finding what my gun does best with. But then my barrel is also a 1:48" twist and likely won't be as good as a slower RB barrel will be. It did put 320 grn REALs in a nice tight group though.
Ok thank you and how far are did you shoot the Real at? thank you

[rodwha]

I've only been shooting at the 50 yd range. With my eyesight it's far enough until I get around to getting glasses.

With a ball and 70 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford I generally get a group around 3" or so. With a REAL lubed with Gatofeo's #1 lube it was about a foot left and well low of the bull, and had keyholed. But I knew shootin these through a deep groove barrel could be an issue so I brought .53" wads and the next two were nearly touching and just below bull. At that moment I knew I wanted a mold! I used the same 70 grn charge.

[trapper9260]

ok thank you for letting me know.May I ask have you weight them to see what what they where are you cast them. To see what group shoots the best.I tested the 250 I got and see that one weight shoot where it needs to be and the others where flyers.just idea that I found for my testing.

[rfd]

A patched ball with a rifle charge can be one hole group accurate at 100 yds as here are many fellow's that compete and do this on a regular basis. 125 yds isn't that difficult if you are using a combination that shoots well from your gun by you.

Unless you are very good at judging wind and figuring for it breezes can really do you bad out that far.....

no sir, what yer saying is not something the average side lock ml hunter can do consistently. it's a gamble shot and a good chance at wounding and not killing. i shoot with some fellers that can shoot bpcr groups with their frontloaders at 200 yards - but that's at the range, under controlled conditions, and most of us (me included) ain't gonna be able to do that while deer hunting in cold weather (or worse) whilst attempting to offhand or tree brace aim at a browsing buck 100 yards away in the field let alone woods. to me, that's a definite pass since i'm not holding my scoped .308win sniper rifle that can plug quarter coins at 300 yards. i'll say again, for most of us if not all of us, 50 yards is a more realistic and ethical max distance for attempting to kill deer with a side lock and a prb ... or even maxie or real. ymmv.

[johnson1942]

you may be right about a lot cant do good shooting with a roundball beyond 50 yards and that is quite sad and not realistic for a round ball gun. ive taken deer at 170 yards and 125 yards with a 45 round ball gun placeing the shot well and the gun is very accurate at those ranges. before i went to paper patching slugs and fast twist barrels my 50 cal round ball side lock 1/60 twist took deer and antelope at 125 to 150 yards with one shot several times. first you have to have a round ball gun to shoot roundballs. the 50 cal is penty big enough for deer, antelope and elk. shot placement is very important but with 100 grains of powder behind a .495 roundball it is a very good meat getter. i now shoot paperpatch for a couple of reasons,very very longdistance shooting, easiest of all bullets to load. i may go back to a round ball gun to hunt and a 50 is easily big enough. remember a benchmark shot that set the standard for us to achive the same accracy was fired by a man named morgan as the first shot of the battle of new orleans, morg with a flinter long rifle most likely a 40 or 45 took out a british office with a head shot off hand and not from a rest at 216 yards. right through the bulls eye of the mans ear. not glorifying the death or killing, just noteing the marksman ship of morg and his rifle. it wasnt a lucky shot, it was something he did all the time. i have always thought, if he could do it so can we and with a gun built for it it isnt rocket science or that difficult. round ball long shots out past 200 yards can be done on a regular bases. never give up, learn the science of shooting and do it.

[Lonegun1894]

Johnson1942,
I completely agree with you, but RFD is right within the limitations he placed. He did say "average", and within that set guideline, he is correct. Personally though, I consider "average" to be pretty pathetic cause I have seen too many "hunters" show up at the range a week before the season, fire a handful of shots that land all over a paper target, and declare themselves and the gun ready to hunt. The kind of shooting you're talking about requires a person to actually practice now and then, which the "average" shooter is too lazy and too incompetent to do. My MLs with a RB will consistently shoot groups of 4" or less at 100yds, and the groups are still 6-7" out to 150yds (drop becomes a problem though), so I disagree with the 50yd limitation RFD states for these guns, but since he said the "average" hunter, if what he meant is that the average shooter is useless past 50yds, regardless of what weapon he/she is using, then I can agree with his statement. Personally, I really don't care what tool I'm using, the fun is in seeing how close I can get before I take my shot, and I have never lost any animal I shot with a RB--or any other projectile. I have had to track a handful of mine, and also tracked a lot of animals for other hunters. So as hunters, we need to learn to shoot, learn to track, and then get as close as possible before we take the shot.

Please do NOT take the above as me advocating that we take 150-200yd shots with MLs, but rather just as saying that the guns are capable if we are, and as has been said, most shooters are NOT capable.

[rfd]

i can surely agree that there are some boones and crocketts that can shoot the eye out of a wheeling hawk at 200 paces, but that's an unrealistic scenario for the average joe going out with a sidelock for a deer kill. talking it up about 100 yard kills with a prb might make the unskilled think they can do it too.

[Lonegun1894]

That's the key point though, RFD. The unskilled have no business being out there with a gun anyway cause they are a safety issue for everyone and everything in the woods within range of them. Those of us who practice and know what the limitations of our chosen weapon AND ourselves are, would be doing a disservice to anyone asking about any gun if we were to lie and say our guns are less capable than they are. Now it is up to that unskilled person to realize/understand that they can't match that same level of shooting just by buying a similar rifle. I mean, I own an AR-15, but that doesn't make me a Navy SEAL, just like owning a .30-06 with a scope on top doesn't make me Carlos Hathcock. I do however practice and shoot frequently to stay in practice and improve my skills, which is something that most hunters I have talked to can't claim cause most of these guys dust off their rifle a week before deer season, fire a handful of rounds at the range, go kill (or often just wound) a deer, and out the rifle away til next season, when they use up a few more of the rounds out of the same 20rd box they bought 2-3yrs ago, and wonder why they miss or even worse, wound. They need to practice and know their weapon, but you can't get that through their skulls most of the time. I practice out to double the range I actually intend to hunt to, regardless of what weapon I am using. It takes discipline to limit yourself to the range limits you impose on yourself, but I see that as part of being a responsible adult. I disagree with the OP wounding deer like he said he has, but I also appreciate and respect that he is trying to prevent that happening again. I get the feeling that he is trying to blame his lack of performance on his chosen equipment instead of realizing it is his own lack of skill/discipline, but both of those can be learned and I hope the incidents he has spoken of here will not be repeated, and know they won't be if he practices and limits his shots to reasonable ranges and placement like he should. He is learning and will do well. That puts him above the "average" hunter in my book, as long as he follows the advice he has been given and learns from it.

[rodwha]

man, 100+ yards with a .50 prb for deer - dang! that's a hail mary shot if ever there was one, i don't care who's behind the trigger of a sidelock. *maybe* it would be a somewhat diff'rent story if a bullet (maxi, conical, real) was used, but even that's gonna be marginal. these kinda rifles are best at not much more than 50 yards or so, imho. else best think about one of those modern inlines things. ymmv.

This was what you said in which I made the comment I did. Here you say a muzzleloader with a ball is a 50 yd gun at best, which is VERY FAR from the truth.

Nowhere was "average" used.

If you know of no one who can hunt with a ball beyond 50 yds doesnt mean it's not possible. There are a bunch of guys on a traditional forum that do indeed take medium game out as far as 125 yds and some. However most of them keep within 80 yds. And these are actual hunts and not range shots.

When I first became interested in muzzleloading and looked into the ball I was surprised it could be a viable option beyond 50 yds due to the poor BC and sectional density. But then I was shown many pics of downed deer and balls from shots as far as 125 yds.

And when you look at the ballistics it shows it's no that out of the realm as long as your gun and load are good for it and you have practiced from normal field conditions. The wind is my wrench.

[rodwha]

I
no sir, what yer saying is not something the average side lock ml hunter can do consistently. it's a gamble shot and a good chance at wounding and not killing. i shoot with some fellers that can shoot bpcr groups with their frontloaders at 200 yards - but that's at the range, under controlled conditions, and most of us (me included) ain't gonna be able to do that while deer hunting in cold weather (or worse) whilst attempting to offhand or tree brace aim at a browsing buck 100 yards away in the field let alone woods. to me, that's a definite pass since i'm not holding my scoped .308win sniper rifle that can plug quarter coins at 300 yards. i'll say again, for most of us if not all of us, 50 yards is a more realistic and ethical max distance for attempting to kill deer with a side lock and a prb ... or even maxie or real. ymmv.

Im uncertain as to whether you are talking about the neck shot or any shot. Im not certain a neck shot from a muzzleloader will be anywhere near as effective as a high power round. I used a .270 Win and shot the first third of the neck quite a bit, and is my preferred shot with a modern rifle. I'm not sure I'd try with any muzzleloader projectile as I'm not sure it has the same hydrostatic effect, and I'm not going to gamble for a small target like a spine.

[GabbyM]

High velocity pure lead projectiles will disintegrate aka frag into little pieces upon impact.

I started shooting deer with a TC Hawkins 45 caliber with round balls back around 1971.
First deer went down DRT. But the ball was in three pieces inside the deer. The next year I shot four deer in one day IIRC and never found a blood trail. Have since learned that a soft lead round ball traveling over 2,000 fps will totally frag on impact. I was loading 110 grains of FFFG under them.
Your Hornady balls are swaged lead I believe. Which is pure Pb. You probably had the same issues I did with near zero penetration. Some tin in the RB alloy then don't overcharge the rifle. Would be my RB advise. But as has been stated above. 54 and up is where it's at for a RB hunter for deer. I found the 45 caliber 220 grain TC Maxi Ball conical to be quit the delivery system. Lost that mold in a move so now have a Lyman 240 Maxi and a huge RCBS hollow base Minnie. For fast reloads.

Note the guys having better luck than I with 45 RB are not using near as much powder under them as I did. To shoot fast you need a harder ball then a thinner patch so you can seat it. Accuracy supposedly is not as good as if you patch and ball to engrave the ball. But I've shot a lot of wheel weight alloy 45 RB's with great accuracy using a cleaning patch . I'd go with 1:20 tin lead for hunting. But I'd never take a 45 RB deer hunting again. Conical , especially in the little 45 , work far better. Now a 54 caliber, the old USA military bore size, flint lock round ball gun would be number one on my dream list. But there is a huge difference between a 54 and a 45 RB. I'd use something like a 2% tin alloy in a 54 RB. fifty caliber gets caught in the middle. Since you've had bad experience with RB then I'd just go with a big conical. Face it, you will feel better about it when the deer starts to walk into your zone. Any stories I've heard of fifty caliber TC Maxi Balls had the running deer tumble after impact. Don't care what side you butter your bread on that is a desirable result.

What it comes down to is I could kill deer with my 222 Rem then say I'm a better hunter than a man who uses a 30-30. But I'd rather use my 30-30 with the 150 grain boolits I load for it. Then I'd rather use the 30-06 with my 220 grain flat nose. I'd also rather use a 54 caliber round ball than my 240 grain 45 caliber conical. Not that I think there would be a nickels difference in the killing power of the two. I also had for my "big rifle" since I was 23 up to when I was 58 years old. The much published wonder round 270 Winchester. It never let me down and was always enough gun. But then a couple years ago I bought an FN Win M70 in 30-06. Immediately wondered why I'd ever piddled with a 270 Winchester caliber. All the 30-06's I'd shot before had been old 03 Springfield's and M1's. What I'm trying poorly to get at is. Picking a caliber and bullet should be more of a fact based decision rather than emotional. That whole line about a little RB being enough if you are a good shot is IMHO a pile of BS. Not that a 45 or 50 RB won't kill a deer. They've killed millions of them. So What.

[swathdiver]

...I am usen American pioneer powder FFG 80gr Hornady 50cal .490 ball patch .010 and .015 and lube is Bore butter by TC

Seems I remember reading somewhere that APP is pretty anemic compared to Goex. Generally speaking, the tighter the twist, the less powder you'll need. However, your rifle was not meant to be a round ball gun. Use that rifle as it was intended and get yourself a round ball rifle if you want to shoot round balls.

[rodwha]

Prior to the move west where the ranges were much shorter a .45 cal was a very large caliber. They killed their deer just fine. If it didn't they'd not have dealt with smaller calibers for so long.

A .50 cal is more than enough for a deer, even if there is no expansion. That is if it's placed well.

I've heard of a few people having luck running a ball through a fast twist, but it's likely a much longer projectile will do you better as it's what the twist was meant for.

[GabbyM]

Prior to the move west where the ranges were much shorter a .45 cal was a very large caliber. They killed their deer just fine. If it didn't they'd not have dealt with smaller calibers for so long.

A .50 cal is more than enough for a deer, even if there is no expansion. That is if it's placed well.

I've heard of a few people having luck running a ball through a fast twist, but it's likely a much longer projectile will do you better as it's what the twist was meant for.

Your mind set is a pure lead round ball like the OP's Hornady swaged ball is will not expand. I'm telling you straight up it will frag into little pieces when fired over his charges. I'll also state another fact. In old days gone by men used very small black powder charges. I have a great great Uncle who was missing a left thumb from using to much powder in a poor boy rifle. He showed me his thumb in a jar when I was about eight. That was pretty gross. His nephew, my Grandfather, was shocked when he saw how much powder I was using in My 45 caliber TC. Of course he was right. I was using to darn much powder. 60 grains under a 45 round ball as has been posted by successful hunters seams about right. 110 grains I used and that ball will blow up for sure. Only ones that shot that much powder in those old home made squirrel rifles were the ones like my great Uncle who showed me his thumb in a jar. That was actually from a 4th of July salute round were they'd fill the bore with powder then fire them off in the street. To much powder,

[Lonegun1894]

Gabby,
You sure you don't have your alloys mixed up? Pure lead is soft, so deforms rather than fragmenting, but the harder the alloy gets, the more likely it is to fragment like you're saying. I use 70grs FFFg in my .50s and 80-90grs FFFg in my .54s (depending on which one), using pure when I have it, and soft range scrap when I can't, and haven't had a single RB fragment after it hit flesh, if recovered. In fact, out of all the RBs I have recovered, I have never seen one that has lost more than 10grs of weight, and that is not what I would call fragmentation when my .490"s start at 178grs and my .530"s start at 225grs. Mushrooming or expansion, absolutely, but NOT fragmentation.

I couldn't agree with you more on the powder charges though, many people use way too much trying to make the ML perform like the modern guns they're used to with a flat trajectory, and that's just not how these old designs are at their best.

[Good Cheer]

no sir, what yer saying is not something the average side lock ml hunter can do consistently. it's a gamble shot and a good chance at wounding and not killing. i shoot with some fellers that can shoot bpcr groups with their frontloaders at 200 yards - but that's at the range, under controlled conditions, and most of us (me included) ain't gonna be able to do that while deer hunting in cold weather (or worse) whilst attempting to offhand or tree brace aim at a browsing buck 100 yards away in the field let alone woods. to me, that's a definite pass since i'm not holding my scoped .308win sniper rifle that can plug quarter coins at 300 yards. i'll say again, for most of us if not all of us, 50 yards is a more realistic and ethical max distance for attempting to kill deer with a side lock and a prb ... or even maxie or real. ymmv.

So very true for the average hunter in the woods. Watching the annual sighting in the scopes at shooting ranges is enough to give you the willies.
It can be comical to see a guy putting his scope over on your 100 yard round ball group when his bolt action belchfiremagnum target looks like a pattern of #4's.
But hey, it's easy to give your bench neighbor trigger anxiety when you're shooting a fifty round ball rifle with a barrel one inch across the flats and 43" long.

[gnoahhh]

Gabby,

I couldn't agree with you more on the powder charges though, many people use way too much trying to make the ML perform like the modern guns they're used to with a flat trajectory, and that's just not how these old designs are at their best.

I agree also. There's no earthly reason, IMO, to whomp up a powder charge. For many years and many deer I used a charge of 50 grains FFFg behind a .50 PRB. Now I use a .45 PRB with either 60 or 70 grains depending on which gun I'm shooting. When I hear guys bragging about pouring 100-150 grains down their barrels I sort of chuckle, especially when they admit to never experimenting with 50-60 grain charges. To some (but not you guys I bet) it's a macho thing, for others it's an ignorance thing.

As far as shooting past 100 yards with a PRB, that's an individual limitation hopefully based on lots of practice at both holding and shooting as well as range estimation. I've been shooting for over 50 years, muzzle loaders for 45 of them and have spent countless hours on rifle ranges so have a pretty good idea of what 50, 100, and 200 yards look like. But out in the woods, in varying light/weather even my eyes often deceive me and what might appear as 100 yards could well be 125 or 140 yards and a shot taken may well score a miss or a senseless crippling for a round ball starts to drop pretty fast beyond 100. For that reason I simply don't take those kind of shots- and I have passed up on a couple of dandy bucks for that reason. When sitting stationary I've taken to establishing distances beforehand with a rangefinder, the results from which sometimes surprises me after my estimating said ranges. That device isn't much good when still hunting and an animal presents itself by surprise.

I figure my muzzle loaders extend my effective-don't-bother-estimating-the-distance-just-shoot killing range by about twice the distance of an expert archer, beyond that I want/need all the time in the world to lock down the distance and take a steady rest and draw a well thought out bead on the deer.

[johnson1942]

as long as we are talking about shooting round balls so they are allowed to do what they can i will put here what i do and get unusual accracy. first if it is a 50 cal, the twist should be 60 to 72. if it is a 45 it should be 48 to 60. if it is a 54 the twist should be 60 to 72 also. a 58 should be about 72 but a little faster is good also. next i use pure linen patches, i get the linen cloth off of the internet. i cut my own patches square as i really believe they shoot consistantly better. they are the same size a a round patch but square. i rub into the patch lee alox even if i use real black, never a problem with it. i use a round ball that is 5 thousands under the bore size. for the 50/s its .459. i use a small rubber hammer to tap the bullet with the starter into the bore centered on the patch. i have used 100 grains behind both the 45/s and the 50/s. with the right twist you can do that. now comes a very very important part. set the ball just on the powder, never ever tamp it on as they do in the movies. pyrodex is very soft and if you dont just set the ball on the pyrodex and compress it at different degrees you will get poor accracy. black powder is hard as is blackhorn 209 powder and it is real easy to set the ball gently on them with the same rod pressure each time. the next thing is i wipe one damp and two dry between shots if it is real black im useing. with blackhorn 209 their is no need for that at all. their it is, do it over and over the same and 150 yard shots will get you your game with a well placed shot. all of us dont live in the woods and i cant recall killing a deer here in our woods. cant find the deer in the trees around here and we hunt in the valleys between the pine ridges as that is where they are anyways. they only sleep in the woods. we have to here know how to take longer shots and have the set up so the gun can do it. remember the soldier captured by the british that was a longrifle shooter. they took him back to england and treated him very well. they had him demonstrate his rifle and the accracy of it. many time he shot 200 yards off hand and always put the ball in the bull. he demonstrated before a lot of generals, however even though they were impressed they never moved on makeing their guns do it untill many years later. if he could do it and old morg could do it so can we. we just need guns that had their science and then practice, practice, practice. i dont like off hand so i use a rest of some kind but i can hit out their where i want. dont give, its just science and practice. p.s. some of lewis and clarks men took antelope at 300 yards for their meat supply. wasnt that 54 or 58 cal round ball they were shooting?

[rodwha]

High velocity pure lead projectiles will disintegrate aka frag into little pieces upon impact.

I started shooting deer with a TC Hawkins 45 caliber with round balls back around 1971.
First deer went down DRT. But the ball was in three pieces inside the deer. The next year I shot four deer in one day IIRC and never found a blood trail. Have since learned that a soft lead round ball traveling over 2,000 fps will totally frag on impact. I was loading 110 grains of FFFG under them.
Your Hornady balls are swaged lead I believe. Which is pure Pb. You probably had the same issues I did with near zero penetration. Some tin in the RB alloy then don't overcharge the rifle. Would be my RB advise. But as has been stated above. 54 and up is where it's at for a RB hunter for deer. I found the 45 caliber 220 grain TC Maxi Ball conical to be quit the delivery system. Lost that mold in a move so now have a Lyman 240 Maxi and a huge RCBS hollow base Minnie. For fast reloads.

Note the guys having better luck than I with 45 RB are not using near as much powder under them as I did. To shoot fast you need a harder ball then a thinner patch so you can seat it. Accuracy supposedly is not as good as if you patch and ball to engrave the ball. But I've shot a lot of wheel weight alloy 45 RB's with great accuracy using a cleaning patch . I'd go with 1:20 tin lead for hunting. But I'd never take a 45 RB deer hunting again. Conical , especially in the little 45 , work far better. Now a 54 caliber, the old USA military bore size, flint lock round ball gun would be number one on my dream list. But there is a huge difference between a 54 and a 45 RB. I'd use something like a 2% tin alloy in a 54 RB. fifty caliber gets caught in the middle. Since you've had bad experience with RB then I'd just go with a big conical. Face it, you will feel better about it when the deer starts to walk into your zone. Any stories I've heard of fifty caliber TC Maxi Balls had the running deer tumble after impact. Don't care what side you butter your bread on that is a desirable result.

What it comes down to is I could kill deer with my 222 Rem then say I'm a better hunter than a man who uses a 30-30. But I'd rather use my 30-30 with the 150 grain boolits I load for it. Then I'd rather use the 30-06 with my 220 grain flat nose. I'd also rather use a 54 caliber round ball than my 240 grain 45 caliber conical. Not that I think there would be a nickels difference in the killing power of the two. I also had for my "big rifle" since I was 23 up to when I was 58 years old. The much published wonder round 270 Winchester. It never let me down and was always enough gun. But then a couple years ago I bought an FN Win M70 in 30-06. Immediately wondered why I'd ever piddled with a 270 Winchester caliber. All the 30-06's I'd shot before had been old 03 Springfield's and M1's. What I'm trying poorly to get at is. Picking a caliber and bullet should be more of a fact based decision rather than emotional. That whole line about a little RB being enough if you are a good shot is IMHO a pile of BS. Not that a 45 or 50 RB won't kill a deer. They've killed millions of them. So What.

Was that at extremely close range? On the traditional forums where nearly everyone is using a ball not once have I come across a ball disintegrating. Pure lead is well known for holdin together.

[rodwha]

Your mind set is a pure lead round ball like the OP's Hornady swaged ball is will not expand. I'm telling you straight up it will frag into little pieces when fired over his charges. I'll also state another fact. In old days gone by men used very small black powder charges. I have a great great Uncle who was missing a left thumb from using to much powder in a poor boy rifle. He showed me his thumb in a jar when I was about eight. That was pretty gross. His nephew, my Grandfather, was shocked when he saw how much powder I was using in My 45 caliber TC. Of course he was right. I was using to darn much powder. 60 grains under a 45 round ball as has been posted by successful hunters seams about right. 110 grains I used and that ball will blow up for sure. Only ones that shot that much powder in those old home made squirrel rifles were the ones like my great Uncle who showed me his thumb in a jar. That was actually from a 4th of July salute round were they'd fill the bore with powder then fire them off in the street. To much powder,

I'm not sure why you got the impression I had a "mind set" that felt a lead ball wouldn't expand or deform. Nothing I said should have concluded that.

110 grns of 3F is likely way too much for a .45 cal. My Lyman states 110 grns of 2F and 90 grns of 3F as a max for a .50 cal.

The OP stated his charge was 80 grns of 3F with a .490" ball. I garauntee you it is not over charged and did not fragment on impact at 125 yds. That's a big load of BS there.

Hefty chages aren't needed and weren't the norm for folks back then, true. Only what was needed was used, and along the east where it's quite thick a 50 yd shot is an extremely long one in most cases. Not so when they went west, which is the time when a .45 cal was on the small side.

The only way a 60 grn charge would blow up a .45 cal rifle is maybe if it were using 4F or if a gap was left. That is unless a huge conical were shoved on that. This is assuming the rifle in question has been well cared for and isn't damaged.

[johnson1942]

i shot a antelope buck in the left shoulder with a 50 cal roundball at 125 yards and the ball split in two and one of the halfs snapped his right leg in half and the other half broke the right shoulder. they can come apart and it was a pure lead ball. did more damage that way.

[rodwha]

I'm sorry. I was vague with my reply. I'm not saying they cannot break into a couple of pieces, but that the velocity alone does this, that it will happen regardless.

[trapper9260]

I like to thank you all for the help you have given me and also explain all to me.I thank you all alot.

[Hickok]

Now this pertains only to side hammer rifles, not inlines.

In cold weather the best and only powder to use in side hammers rifles is real black powder. It will shoot to point of aim whether it is 60 degress or 10 degrees.

Some powders such as Pyrodex, will shoot beautifully in warm weather at the gun range, but fail to hit to point of aim when carried all day in a side hammer gun in cold weather. Missed shots and crippled deer can result.

I have tested this myself, and Holy black is the only dependable powder for use in side hammer rifles when hunting in cold, brittle conditions.

Others may have different opinions.

[trapper9260]

Thank you , that is what I have is side hammer.Hickok

[waksupi]

A friend of mine shot a moose recently. She used a .50 cal., patched round ball. The ball stopped under the hide on the far side, moose was dead in three steps.

[johnson1942]

a hunter who lives 5 miles from me has a old, plain italian side lock 50 with a 36 inch barrel. with 70 grains of powder and a 50 cal patched round ball he got a nice colorado elk, shot throught the neck at 100 yards. i really like that gun as its a long full stock and has simple clean lines. shoots anywheres he points it.

[Good Cheer]

Oh no!
Another of those neck shooters!
:holysheep

[johnson1942]

only takes one shot.

[johnson1942]

P.S., was taught neck shooting by a native friend of mine who has shot over 300 buffalo. he shoots them for the tribe when a elder dies and they need a buffalo for the funeral supper. usually at 100 yards and with a winchester 38/55 or a 257 roberts. rarely takes more than one shot.

[Newtire]

The first one wasj a heart and lung shot.I had them go over 100yrds with the shot in the heart in the past.I am here to correct what mistakes I done and looking for help to do that .I was thinking this site is here to help and learn .There is no perfect world and i am one looking to learn that is why I am ask for help.Don't worry about those kinds of answers trapper. Most guys here are here to help others but then there are those other guys.. Try the ignore feature. Saves you alot of grief! Pretty rude answers if you ask me.

[Sharpsman]

Most of this post is REAL HOKEY!!

[carolina sorillo]

I have never shot a deer with a muzzleloader but, I've shot'em with a .270, .45-70 and .30-30 and none of them DRT, all have run at least 40 yards. However, I saw a doe shot in the upper neck just below her chin, the smallest part of the neck where there was a very good chance of hitting something vital. It looked like her legs melted out from under her. She went down and never moved again. It was a 25yd shot with a .22lr!!

C.S.