Finally got my CH Champion!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well, Just won my CH Champion!

I've been looking really for years, but they are almost impossible to find used, and fairly high priced (for a single stage press) new!

The PO did not have it listed as a CH, said there was no name on it?

Is that normal???

Here's a bad pic, looks like some light TLC will fix her up!

[M-Tecs]

Mine has no name on it.

[seagiant]

Mine has no name on it.

Hi,
Cool! Thanks!

[Ickisrulz]

I always thought that it was unusual that there is no name or manufacturer's information anywhere. Just the distinctive red handle.

[seagiant]

I always thought that it was unusual that there is no name or manufacturer's information anywhere. Just the distinctive red handle.


Hi,
I saw where the primer arm has the CH logo stamped on it but nothing on the press.

[r1kk1]

You stole that one didn't you seagiant! Congrats! My casting is newer one where it lacks the priming arm boss cast into the frame.151755


i love the black crinkle finish. Funny story was mine was shipped to a wrong address. Long story short, the delivery driver sheepishly knocked on my door and I seen part of the box was heavily taped and part of the press hanging out! He asked me if I wanted to make a claim but I opened it and it was fine! Not a scratch! That press made it through several states and finally to me.

The photo was taken some time ago to be used as my iPhone screen saver.
take care

r1kk1

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well....I did do better than buying new and it looks like with some light clean up the powder coat will be fine.

I'm working out of town, but will be home Veterans Day and will take some better pics after clean up!

I don't know how many small and big changes these presses went through but mine does have the more modern type red sleeve that CH is using now!

Here is a pic of one with the older handle.

If there is anyway to date these, I'd be proud to know how???

[r1kk1]

I would Dave a call at CH4D. He is the only one I know who could date these. I'm curious when these changes occurred too.

take care

r1kk1

[seagiant]

Hi,
Might try that! (calling Dave)

I wonder if Pressman knows anything on these????

Here's a pic I found showing the massive body and the ram!

It does look like a beast, dont think resizing 308 rifle is even going to give it a work out!:veryconfu

[BullGoose]

I had my eye on that press as well. I've been wanting to set one alongside the Ultra-Mag on my bench and start reforming some brass! I've missed out on a couple of them but one of these days my timing will be right on.

[seagiant]

I had my eye on that press as well. I've been wanting to set one alongside the Ultra-Mag on my bench and start reforming some brass! I've missed out on a couple of them but one of these days my timing will be right on.

Hi,
I was lucky as the owner didn't know what he had and did not list it by the CH Champion name!

I even asked r1kk1 to make sure it was what I thought it was!

CH did make a smaller version of the Champion, that pops up every now and then and I did not want that!

I think most bidders just liked what they saw and did not realize it was close to a $350 press! (new)

[troyboy]

I was watching that as well. Went for more than i was willing to pay.

[seagiant]

I was watching that as well. Went for more than i was willing to pay.

Hi,
Well, I guess it depends on how bad you want one!

I looked for years as I did not want to pay full retail and I probably saved about $130 including shipping on this one!

There are some presses out there you are not going to pick up cheap, I paid more than I wanted to for my Bair Kodiak 150, but everytime I saw one on E-Bay it went for more than the last one!

You also have to figure in the time you are losing to play with it!!!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Whoa! Just read a post where a guy said he talked to Dave at CH4D and he said this press was made from cast steel and NOT cast iron?

Anyone know about that???

[r1kk1]

I did.

r1kk1

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well it seems that would be a big selling point!

This might be the only reloading press still being made with cast STEEL!

That does make me happy!!!

The deal just got better in my eyes!

[BullGoose]

Seagiant, you are steering me towards going ahead and buying one brand spanking new. It appears, to my eye, to be the only single stage press (possibly/arguably) superior to my Ultra-Mag that is not made primarily for swaging bullets. To note; I once sized a piece of 257Rob brass to 243Win in that Ultra-Mag without noticing any extra effort and didn't catch it til I saw the fold line during hand priming. That is a LOT of torque! Your Champion may be even better.

[bruce drake]

Nice Catch!

Now you need to update your signature in your profile for your next dream press!

[M-Tecs]

The cast steel is one of the reasons I purchased mine.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Admittedly I didn't know,( about the cast steel) I don't see it mentioned in the description on the CH4D site???

It is a plus, one of the reasons I like my RCBS A2 so much!

I think at one time "BT Sniper" was doing a group buy or some arrangment on buying these from Dave brand new?

Might be something to look into as from my experience they are VERY hard to find used!

I guess my next press to find will be an RCBS "Big Max" A4!

That is probably going to be very hard!

[M-Tecs]

I guess my next press to find will be an RCBS "Big Max" A4!

That is probably going to be very hard!


Easy to find used on eBay but they go for $300 to $550. Realistic priced ones are a rare cat. I lucked onto a really cheap one two days after I purchased my not so cheap one. I have two and the cheap one was like new in the box.

[Ickisrulz]

What is the benefit of cast steel over cast iron? I gather strenghth, but how much?

[seagiant]

Hi,
Hmmm...I think a brand new one from Dave is listed at $335?

Why would one go up to $500 on E-Bay? I don't know?

Yes! Cast steel is a lot stronger not only in strength but shock durability!

If you look at a piece of cast steel and cast iron you can even see the "grain" difference in the two steels!

The cast steel will be more "smooth" looking.

Of course this is about impossible to see under the powder coat!!!

[r1kk1]

I own the Ultramag, COAX and Summit as well. The Ultramag is slightly taller than the Champion. Both the Champion and Ultramag weigh the same, approx 30 lbs. The difference is the Ultramag uses cast iron frame and 1" diameter ram that is hollow. The Champion is drilled through solid ram for primer disposal. The ram is slightly larger than 1-⅛". I park a waste basket under mine for 100% spent primer catcher. It is a brute. The frame allows me to grip it with my off hand while doing serious case forming chores. It is the most ergonomically designed press I have used before that was a buzz word in the industry. The only single stage presses I have used or seen with larger solid Rams are the OWS RockCrusher with the 1-⅝" ram and weighing a paltry 103 lbs and I believe it is a cast steel press now made by CH4D, but it is the RCBS Summit sporting a solid 2" ram.

I believe there was a group buy on the Champion for swaging purposes.

I have all four presses mounted on RockDocks and there is nothing currently made that would push the Champion off the bench except the CH4D RockCrusher.

Take care

r1kk1

[seagiant]

Hi,
Thanks for the info, I forgot about the Rock Crusher but have no need for a press that could reload a 20MM!!!

I admit I haven't been this excited about a single stage press(the champion) since I found my RCBS A2!

Well...the Ultra Mag is $308 at Midway and it is a nice looking press but I can look at it and see it is not close strength wise to the Champion and at that price point the Champion would rule!

[M-Tecs]

Hi,
Hmmm...I think a brand new one from Dave is listed at $335?

Why would one go up to $500 on E-Bay? I don't know?



I was referring to the RCBS Big Max's on eBay. Edited my post above to clarify.

[seagiant]

I was referring to the RCBS Big Max's on eBay. Edited my post above to clarify.

Hi,
Hmmm...you have two???

[lightman]

C-H makes a nice press and would probably be my choice if I ever replace my RockChucker, which is not likely. I just like an "O" frame press with that linkage.

[square butte]

Does the current edition have a primer arm setup? When I looked at the parts list - The schematic did not seem to show any accommodation for a primer arm??

[seagiant]

Does the current edition have a primer arm setup? When I looked at the parts list - The schematic did not seem to show any accommodation for a primer arm??

Hi,
My understanding is that the new Champions do not have the slots cut for the priming set up?

If this was to strengthen it more,or save machine cost, or both I have no idea!

I'm content with mine!

Here's the present photo on the CH4D site but they maybe still using the old pic?

This looks like the one I bought on e-bay!

[r1kk1]

Does the current edition have a primer arm setup? When I looked at the parts list - The schematic did not seem to show any accommodation for a primer arm??

No it does not. The newer casting does not have that feature. No biggie to me. I use a RCBS ram prime on it and the Summit or the RCBS bench priming tool or the COAX or the Ultramag or the 550 or the K&M deluxe primer seater.

Take care

r1kk1

[r1kk1]

I was watching that as well. Went for more than i was willing to pay.

Well I bet you will not get a cast steel press cheap. Seagiant has been on the prowl for years. No one else makes a cast steel press. If RCBS would rerelease the A-2 I would give them what they wanted. Quasi has a side by side photo of the A2 and Champion. The Champion appeared to be larger but not by much.

I want to thank Quasi for the comparison and words via phone and email.

Once again congrats to seagiant on his win. They didn't mark the auction right.

The press reflects the time where quality and workmanship mattered. It is the strongest and most functional piece of art. Don't be surprised when they are gone.

Take care

r1kk1

[seagiant]

Hi,
Thanks r1kk1, you are correct, I've been looking for years it seems, trying to get a "deal" on one!

The CH Champion I got was NOT labled by name on E-Bay the seller called it "Heavy Duty Press"!

What was funny is I have a CH Reloader bookmark for E-Bay and this press came up on that list even though it did not have anything refering to CH4D?????

The way I work the auction is figure what I can spend including the shipping shown by seller and put that amount in about 10 sec. before the end of the auction!

This is not to be "sneaky" in anyway but see no reason to jack the bidding up more thn nessary!

Actually I got this press for $40 less than my bid!

I'm happy!

[Pressman]

Seagiant, A4's are fairly common; having the money to pay for them is another matter. Most sellers think they are solid gold and the selling price reflects that idea.

Good luck.

Ken

[seagiant]

Seagiant, A4's are fairly common; having the money to pay for them is another matter. Most sellers think they are solid gold and the selling price reflects that idea.

Good luck.

Ken

Hi,
Thanks Pressman, the "Big Max" may be a tougher nut to crack!

[376Steyr]

IIRC I got my Champion for $89.98. In 1978.

[EDG]

You need to analyze the load path for the Ultramag versus the other presses.
The Ultramag only stresses the links and the cross bar across the top of the press. The rest of the frame does very little.

The Champion is impressive with all that weight but it needs all that mass in the frame because the entire frame is stressed.
I suspect the Champion is NOT as strong as the Ultramag.

A mechanical engineer could analyze the presses and tell you or you can reform some large cases and used a .0001" dial indicator to see which frame stretches the most. However the Ultramag would be difficult to measure since the load path is so short that it cannot bend or stretch much.
You can get find the techniques for the analysis in any Statics text or a Machinery's Handbook.


Hi,

Well...the Ultra Mag is $308 at Midway and it is a nice looking press but I can look at it and see it is not close strength wise to the Champion and at that price point the Champion would rule!

[r1kk1]

You need to analyze the load path for the Ultramag versus the other presses.
The Ultramag only stresses the links and the cross bar across the top of the press. The rest of the frame does very little.

The Champion is impressive with all that weight but it needs all that mass in the frame because the entire frame is stressed.
I suspect the Champion is NOT as strong as the Ultramag.

A mechanical engineer could analyze the presses and tell you or you can reform some large cases and used a .0001" dial indicator to see which frame stretches the most. However the Ultramag would be difficult to measure since the load path is so short that it cannot bend or stretch much.
You can get find the techniques for the analysis in any Statics text or a Machinery's Handbook.

I'm not buying it. Look at earlier posts from me. The two presses are different as night and day.

Ultramag
Weight approximately 30 lbs.
Ram is 1" and hollow.
Slightly taller than the Champion.
Cast IRON frame.

Champion
Weight approximately 30 lbs.
Ram is slightly larger than 1-⅛" and SOLID.
Cast STEEL frame.

Only one of these two above companies make swaging dies.

Using both, there is a difference when case forming. I much prefer the Champion. Where the Ultramag shines is the ability to use LNL bushings and the large window when loading tall cases. Both can handle the 505 Gibbs. The steel links on the Champion are much thicker than the Ultramag. The closest press that I've used to the Champion is the A2. That was back when Lee Jurras had a lineup of monster cartridges for the Contender.

take care

r1kk1

[EDG]

yes they are as different as night and day.
That is why you cannot look at the Ultramag and say it is not as strong as the Champion - because you have not analyzed the load path.
The Ultramag does not even stress the frame except the area between the top link pins and the die bushing hole.
Iike it or not it is probably stronger than the Champion.


I'm not buying it. Look at earlier posts from me. The two presses are different as night and day.

Ultramag
Weight approximately 30 lbs.
Ram is 1" and hollow.
Slightly taller than the Champion.
Cast IRON frame.

Champion
Weight approximately 30 lbs.
Ram is slightly larger than 1-⅛" and SOLID.
Cast STEEL frame.

Only one of these two above companies make swaging dies.

Using both, there is a difference when case forming. I much prefer the Champion. Where the Ultramag shines is the ability to use LNL bushings and the large window when loading tall cases. Both can handle the 505 Gibbs. The steel links on the Champion are much thicker than the Ultramag. The closest press that I've used to the Champion is the A2. That was back when Lee Jurras had a lineup of monster cartridges for the Contender.

take care

r1kk1

[seagiant]

You need to analyze the load path for the Ultramag versus the other presses.
The Ultramag only stresses the links and the cross bar across the top of the press. The rest of the frame does very little.

The Champion is impressive with all that weight but it needs all that mass in the frame because the entire frame is stressed.
I suspect the Champion is NOT as strong as the Ultramag.

A mechanical engineer could analyze the presses and tell you or you can reform some large cases and used a .0001" dial indicator to see which frame stretches the most. However the Ultramag would be difficult to measure since the load path is so short that it cannot bend or stretch much.
You can get find the techniques for the analysis in any Statics text or a Machinery's Handbook.

Hi,
Being a Marine Engineer, I can see and understand WHY you think the Ultra Mag is better but I don't really buy it either?

If the design of the Ultra Mag was so revolutionary and so easy to change in the design, then why aren't all presses made that way?

The only way to really know (to me) is to set both presses up in the same jig and measure the pressure to destruction!

I'm quite confident that the cast iron on the Ultra Mag (no matter how it goes together it still depends on the frame) will blow way before the cast steel on the Champion!!!

[seagiant]

Hi,
While I had this thread going I tried to do some research on the Champion presses.

It seems as there are three Generations on these (this is IMO and maybe flawed!)

The 70's model with the bicycle type grip, the 90's model (like mine with the slip on grip) and then present day with the "no cut" for primer parts!

The difference in the 70's and 90's models is the 90's model has a thicker top base and is so thick that a "boss" is machined in before the threads/hole for the bushing!

This machined "boss" is totally lacking in the 70's model!

I do not know if the present made, "no cut" model today has the machined boss or not?

Surprisingly, Dave does not have a pic of the present Champion I can download!

If you look at the pic on the right (my press) you will see the round cut out and notice the thicker top!

If you look at the pic on the left you will see no boss and a thinner top!

[r1kk1]

Seagiant

when I get back to the RV, I think I have the pics you want.

Take care

r1kk1

[r1kk1]

152252152253

Mine me is Gen 3. The top two photos is the presses belong to another forum member next to his A2.

take care

r1kk1

[seagiant]

Hi,
Yea, it looks like on the G3 they went a little less thick on the top so there was no cut needed their for the bushing/reload dies needed!

Along with the "no cut" for the primer parts and all that was needed was the machining for the ram and then done!

No matter what Generation, I can see these as hell for stout presses, just trying to see how they differed in almost 45 years???

I'm out of town working but wifey told me my press came today at the house!

Can't wait to get my dirty little hands on it!

[Pressman]

Just a word of caution when looking at these presses on the internet - for sale. There is a corresponding model that is all aluminum. Look twice and ask questions before bidding.

Ken

[seagiant]

Just a word of caution when looking at these presses on the internet - for sale. There is a corresponding model that is all aluminum. Look twice and ask questions before bidding.

Ken

Hi,
Never heard of that???

I know mine is not aluminum because the shipping weight was close to 30#!!!

[r1kk1]

Me neither.

r1kk1

[.22-10-45]

That was my first reloading press..at the time, I had not even begun reloading yet. Local G.S. going out of business & was covered in dust..they were using it as a door stop! I got it for $10.00! that was in 1976. In the early 90's, I completly stripped, re-painted in crinkle black, blued handle & still in use daily. Use it also for .22 bullet swagging.

[seagiant]

That was my first reloading press..at the time, I had not even begun reloading yet. Local G.S. going out of business & was covered in dust..they were using it as a door stop! I got it for $10.00! that was in 1976. In the early 90's, I completly stripped, re-painted in crinkle black, blued handle & still in use daily. Use it also for .22 bullet swagging.

Hi,
We love pics! (even bad ones!)

[flashhole]

How does the Ultramag compare to the Champion?

[Uncle R.]

Just a word of caution when looking at these presses on the internet - for sale. There is a corresponding model that is all aluminum. Look twice and ask questions before bidding.

Ken


Yep.
I have one of the aluminum presses.
I picked up a pair of them at a gun show several years ago - got 'em for a song.
When I saw 'em laying there under the seller's table my brain screamed "Champion Presses!" but when I picked one up it was too light to be a Champion. I bought 'em anyway because the price was almost nothing. I gave one to a friend and kept the other. Nice press, smooth and tight with good leverage, but I doubt it'll stand up to bullet swaging.

Dean Grennell wrote about Champion presses years ago and said that one of their best points was the heat-treated ram. It was supposedly harder and stronger than the mild steel ram on the big RCBS presses, and withstood heavy work like swaging without deforming the shell holder lips.

That comes from the twisted depths of my recollection, so buyer beware.
FWIW

Uncle R.

[seagiant]

How does the Ultramag compare to the Champion?

Hi,
Might want to read the thread, I think we covered that with differing opinions!

Yes a tool steel heat treated ram would be stronger than just mild steel, and a lot more work/money to produce!!!

[flashhole]

Not covered at all in this thread.

[seagiant]

Not covered at all in this thread.

Hi,
Try around post # 37 in this thread!

Have an opinion? Let's hear it!

I vote CH Champion strongest press, even against my beloved RCBS cast steel A2 press!!!

[flashhole]

You're right, I missed it. Thanks.

[flashhole]

This is the question I asked.

Can you compare the Ultramag to the CH4D Champion and offer any objective evidence that supports your claim. "Its unique long link compound leverage system has more mechanical advantage over a greater distance than any other reloading press onthe market. This makes “childs play” of difficult case forming operations." Can you offer any information as to the Ultramags suitability for bullet swaging.

This is the response I received.

Thank you for your interest in Redding Reloading Equipment. Redding's presses are designed for reloading metallic cartridges and will give you a lifetime of service for this purpose. However they will not hold up the added force required for bullet swaging. Our presses have enough leverage for bullet swaging but the added force will prematurely ware out the linkage. There is a good reason why the Corbin bullet swaging presses cost as much as they do.

I have never used a CH4D Champion Press nor have I use a Ultra-mag press very much other than here at the shop. Personally I use the T-7 Turret Press which has less leverage than the Ultra-Mag Press, but it has plenty of leverage for what I need to do. I have sized 338 Lapua Mag cases on the T-7 Press without problem. The Ultra-mag has a longer operating handle and a much longer operational swing than that of the T-7 Press, so I am sure it will easily size any cartridge you wish to size.

I recommend reading the reviews from our customer. Here is a link to MidwayUSA's Website with customer review on this press.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/736031/redding-700-ultramag-single-stage-press

and reviews on Sinclair International:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/reloading-presses/single-stage-presses/redding-ultramag-reloading-press-prod38316.aspx

The only thing I can add is I have recommended this press to a older reloaders and those with physical disabilities and it worked for them just fine and the reports I got back is the press fit their needs.

The only drawback I see with this press is the length of the operation of the handle and that it does not accept our Auto Primer Feeding System.

I hope this helps

Best Regards

Chris Fox
Senior Customer Service Technician &
Certified NRA Reloading Instructor

[seagiant]

Hi,
Thanks! That pretty much nails it! If the manufacturer warns against using their press to swage, that's it!

On the other hand CH4D says the Champion is made to swage and is used for that in the real world!

I'll be back home tomorrow night and will get to see my press for the first time.

I'll post some pics as I clean her up and get her on the bench!

[flashhole]

Good luck with your new press.

[flashhole]

This is the question I asked.

Can you please tell me what features you have included in your Championpress that separates it from other manufacturers products that makes itsuitable for bullet swaging?
Are there specific wear issues (weak points) to be aware of if using theChampion press for swaging?

This is the answer I received.

The ram is slightly larger than the other presses & the linkage affords somewhat more leverage but the biggest thing is the mass of the press. At about 26 lbs it weighs slightly more than twice as much as a Rockchucker press. The massive casting not only is never going to break, it virtually eliminates the "spring" that everyone knows is a great failing of turret presses but also occurs to a lesser extent in almost all C & O frame presses.
In 30 years, the only part I have seen break on a Champion press was a toggle link & the customer admitted he had a piece of pipe 5 ft. long over the press handle.
On 11/9/2015 5:52 PM, CH4D Website wrote:
This email was generated by the CH4D website. A customer has requested to contact you regarding the matter below:

[Ickisrulz]

153021

A pic of my Champion press purchased around 2008.

[seagiant]

Hi,
That looks like mine.

You should have the cut out at the top(G2) where the bushing/die goes!

[Ickisrulz]

153025

This is the top of the press. There's no cut out, it actually has a proud ring. I used Blue Loctite long ago to deal with that bushing coming loose.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Interesting!

I thought I had the castings grouped into only three generations but it seems they could not make their mind up!!!

Here is a pic of mine which still needs the clean up, but thought I would show what I've been talking about.

Mine is just like yours except for the top of the press.

I'm going to assume the top of the press was so thick that they had to machine in a cut out, so the OEM bushings they had would work???

Of course this is admittedly pure speculation!

[Ickisrulz]

Hi,
Interesting!

I thought I had the castings grouped into only three generations but it seems they could not make their mind up!!!

Here is a pic of mine which still needs the clean up, but thought I would show what I've been talking about.

Mine is just like yours except for the top of the press.

I'm going to assume the top of the press was so thick that they had to machine in a cut out, so the OEM bushings they had would work???

Of course this is admittedly pure speculation!


My press is about 1.25" thick on the top next to the bushing. If you notice my bushing is knurled and I have no primer cut outs. I don't know where CH4d gets their castings, but it looks like they change from time to time. Maybe price is the driver.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well I got my press on the bench to clean it.

This press feels like it is not even broken in yet?

I was going to tear it apart and paint it but after cleaning it up decided not to.

It's like new really just has some wear from moving it around I think.

Ram travel is really tight but smooth feeling!

Now I just have to mount it.

Here is some pics!

Oh yea, being a forging knifemaker in my spare time, I test heat treated blades for hardness with a file. (old school)

I took a file and tested the ram on the Champion and it is not "file hard" (skates the file) but feels like a tempered blade (55 RC)

While a LONG way from a $1000 hardness tester, does make me feel it is a pretty stout ram!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well I guess all you Ultra Mag fans got me in the end!

Came across a nice fair priced model and scooped it up!

Hope it makes it home ok!

I always liked the look of the Ultra Mag and love Redding products!

Just had to try one!

Here is a pic off the NET, but will put some pics of the actual press later, when I get home!!!