Lee vs. Hornady crimp, cast boolits

[jaysouth]

http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd507/jaysouth100/factory%20crimp%20die/2015-10-23%2011.52.08_zpss57thq4r.jpg (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/jaysouth100/media/factory%20crimp%20die/2015-10-23%2011.52.08_zpss57thq4r.jpg.html)


My favorite cast boolit rifle is a Weatherby Vanguard S-2 in .308. It has 24" barrel with 1:12 twist. It has a sub-moa accuracy guarantee with Federal Gold medal match ammo.

Since Federal premium ammo would put a crimp in my adult beverage budget, I loaded up some cast boolits to see how accurate they could be at 50 yards. My load was LC 13 LR brass, 25 grs. of 3031, and WLR primer. the boolit was a Lee 170FP cast of ww and a little bit of solder, lube was Randy Rat Tac-1. Afterwards it was tumbled in Bens liquid lube, with a Hornady gas check, all sized to .310

The load in #1 above was loaded in a Lee seating die, then lightly crimped with a factory crimp die.

The load in #2 was seated in a Hornady universal 30 cal seating die using the built in crimp feature.

Otherwise both loads are identical. Neither are MOA but #1 is a good load in my book and adequate for local whitetail close enough for me to see one. An expert rifle operator could have done better with either load, I am sure.

One picture is worth a thousand words.

[stubbicatt]

Wow. That's quite a difference.

Surely the type of crimp provided is different, as the Lee sort of "smooshes" the case mouth into the bullet with those petals, where the roll or taper crimp (which) provided by the Hornady seating die provides a different mechanism for applying the crimp. I wonder though, if the issue isn't so much the die used to apply the crimp as it is the degree or amount of crimp applied by each. I surely don't know how one would go about quantifying such a measurement, but I wonder if the Lee crimp was perhaps firmer, or maybe not as firm, as the crimp provided by the Hornady seating die?

Nonetheless, unless you have some desire to experiment further, it looks like you have found a good combination.

[jaysouth]

I just wish there was a micrometer setting on the Lee fcd to be able to repeat the same tension from loading to loading.

[runfiverun]

why are you crimping rifle rounds anyway?
the neck tension is what does the work.
adding a crimp is, well,,,,, looking for a way to add stress to the boolit.
try no crimp and see how things turn out.

[popper]

Use the FCD to just remove any mouth flare. I use the FCD by 'feel' as I don't neck turn 308W. I feel when the flare is gone - stop when the required force gets high. Mic a few loaded necks and you'll get the hang of it.

[rsrocket1]

Good test Jay.
I like the 309-170-F GC'ed and lubed with 2:1 Beeswax/Vaseline. I also flare the .308 case mouth with the Lee universal flare die, then seat and crimp with the FCD just enough to close the flare. Light neck sizing lets me shoot the same cases over and over. These aren't MOA either, but they are definitely fun plinker rounds and the price is right.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/Shoot/0e6d2e93-5a2b-4efb-8889-5f838bed53da_zpsxtmdz3cs.jpg

[will52100]

Why crimp rifle rounds? Couple of reasons, one, they keep tube magazine guns from driving the bullet back into the case with recoil and spring pressure. I guess they'd be OK if the neck tension was rite. For my 45-75 the lyman mould I use doesn't have a crimp grove, you crimp over the front of the driving band to keep it from coming out the front, the black powder keeps it in place in the rear. Two, I've not don't a lot of testing with cast rifle rounds, but with jacketed I get better accuracy with 7.62 nato and 30-06 ammo out of my M14 and M1's. Best I can figure is I'm getting more even powder burn and pressure with a good crimp. I tried just using neck tension to hold the bullet in place, and accuracy was good, but a good factory crimp made a noticeable difference to the good.

[Landy]

why are you crimping rifle rounds anyway?
the neck tension is what does the work.
adding a crimp is, well,,,,, looking for a way to add stress to the boolit.
try no crimp and see how things turn out.

I'll concur.
Crimping, in rifle reloading, is more like a medicine than a daily vitamin.
A dose of treatment for a loading condition once found, rather than a routine supplement.
Before it's known to be needed it's just one more variable to needlessly chase.

[BCB]

I use the Lee FCD with my 6.8mm SPC cartridge. I am shooting it in a T/C 23" carbine, and yep, I still apply a crimp...

I am shooting the NOE 279-124-FP with a full case of IMR-7383 or WC-860--Both are much too slow burning for the 6.8mm but I have found that the super slow burners when used in the smaller capacity cases--30-30, 7-30, and 6.8mm produce amazing accuracy, although the velocities do suffer...

Both powders mentioned are very dirty and there is plenty of unburnt powder left in the barrel, and all over the place!!!...

A moderate crimp does help with the more efficient burn of the powder...

Why use the super slow burners? I got these powders from surplus dealers for a super cheap price. A box of 20 rounds costs less than a dollar. Sometimes only about 75¢ depending on which primers I use--I can clean a bit of powder and grim for those prices...

Regardless, the crimp helps and really doesn't seem to deform the boolit and lessen accuracy. I am willing to take the extra step...

Good-luck...BCB

[dverna]

Every day we can learn something!!!!

My only rifle shooting for over 40 years has been targets and a bit of competition. I was conditioned by what I had read/learned to never crimp - even on jacketed bullets if one wanted the best chance of getting accuracy. Intuitively, it makes sense to reduced any stress on the bullet and variations especially if an operation like crimping is likely to be variable due to differences in neck wall thickness and case length.

Crimping may be another "trick" to try under certain load conditions when nothing else seems to be working.

Don

[will52100]

While I'm not a bolt gun shooter, with the exception of a couple of mosin's, every rifle I've got showed improved when crimped vs non crimped.

[MT Chambers]

I play around with very accurate cast bullet rifles and reloading equip., I use J-word benchrest techniques for cast bullets including, turned case necks, in-line bullet seaters, etc. I have never found that crimping helps accuracy, in fact just the opposite. It also shows why breach seating can prove so accurate by removing the variables, and crimping would be a variable.

[JeffinNZ]

why are you crimping rifle rounds anyway?
the neck tension is what does the work.
adding a crimp is, well,,,,, looking for a way to add stress to the boolit.
try no crimp and see how things turn out.

Comes down to what the rifle likes. My 6.5X52 Carcano greatly favours a decent crimp for best accuracy with all three bullets I shoot in it. The .32-20 Martini is the same. No stress on the bullet as I crimp into a grease groove and escaping the brass crimp is going to be significantly less stress on the alloy than the kick up the backside by a charge of powder burning.

[BwBrown]

My experience with the Lee Factory Crimp echos the groups above. But the extent of my testing has been limited - this thread would tend to affirm what I was concluding for myself.
The Lee crimp works quite nicely to keep bullets in my 450 Marlin where I want them to stay, even under recoil - right there in the case where I put'em.

[MT Chambers]

Crimping bullets for hard kicking leverguns is necessary, but I still wouldn't deform the bullet in any way, case neck tension is still #1.

[jonp]

I just wish there was a micrometer setting on the Lee fcd to be able to repeat the same tension from loading to loading.

Like a redding micro-adjust die? If lee made one that was half the redding price I'd buy one