7mm Soup Can -- indicate interest please [Archive]

Oldfeller

10-13-2005, 04:56 AM

Hey Buckshot, nobody said you couldn't Honcho -- you volunteering? Honcho the long one or the short one, I don't mind. You'd get it in a six banger that way for sure (el longo was designed to go into a six banger mold block, BTW).

Right now, somebody offer some good comments on ways to improve the 7mm Soup Can design or the long design. The Soup Can is large enough diameter-wise to ride the long throat walls on the Paul Mauser 7mm guns and it is short enough to fit in modern throated 7mm Remington Magnums and even in modern throated 7mm-08 guns (just barely).

And I hate to say it, but there are a lot more modern 7mms out there than model 93s that still have shootable bores. Witness poor Junior's struggle to find an inexpensive used tube for his 93, 7x57 isn't all that easy to do any more.

Actually, the Soup Can is my best design shot at fitting "everybody's disparate needs". El Longo won't fit anything but a Paul Mauser and maybe a worn throated 7mm Magnum without going down into the boiler room. On a 7mm-08 it would be sticking like 2+ bands worth down into the boiler room.

But there is room for lattitude here -- if you want either one in a six banger and are willing to Honcho it I'm good with that -- I won't be in town consistently anyway so it would be better for you to do it.

Oldfeller

PS: Have you considered making the nose and first two driver bands on El Longo .280" diameter so it will load land top rider style in the modern guns? Might pick up some more people that way, it would cover the 7 Mags and possibly even the 7mm-08s that have magazine capacity to hold it (mine would).

Junior1942

10-13-2005, 09:13 AM

Isn't that .289" OD a little big?

StarMetal

10-13-2005, 10:45 AM

Oldfeller,

Try more like over a 1/4 inch of El Longo would be in the boiler room of a 7mm-08. I'm not real sure a new 7mm-08 will handle a .289 body as Junior is concerned too. Now the old 7x57's would be fine. I think you fellows should either make a bullet for the old 7x57's floating around or newer 7mm's we have...not one for both.

Have you played with the 6.5 Kurtz yet????

Joe

StarMetal

10-13-2005, 01:01 PM

Oldfeller,

Here's a picture of a Lyman 150 gr Loverin seated to touch the rifling in my Sako 7mm-08. Give you an idea of how deep you have to go with the heavy 7mm Loverin?

Joe

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/73857mm-08.JPG

Oldfeller

10-13-2005, 03:51 PM

OK, feedback so far is go modern or go old style, quit trying to please everybody with the same silly bullet.

Modern guns would have a bullet OD of .286" to size to .285" or thereabouts -- it is the old worn throat Paul Mausers that must have the huge ODs to run down their big old throats.

More comments please -- the better we tweek it now the better it is ......

StarMetal

10-13-2005, 04:19 PM

Oldfeller,

You are familar with the Lee 135gr 7mm bullet. It's half groove bands and half borerider. Okay...that bullet seated with the base flush with the neck/shoulder junction on the 7mm-08 round fits my Sako to a T. So, if you're thinking a short loverin for the more modern 7mm's, it will still have to be seated below the neck for a 7mm-08 or it will have to be a very very short bullet. I'm not trying to get you fellows to design a bullet for me or my Sako specifically,but my 7mm-08 has the typical SAAMI spec dimensions, just pointing that out. Then if you do make a half and half bullet you have to contend with the nose portion being either too fat or to skinny.

Joe

Oldfeller

10-13-2005, 04:32 PM

Joe, no I haven't cast or shot the 6.5 Kurtz yet. It sits on my mold shelf, gathering dust. Why?? Because it absolutely struggled for fine accuracy at full speed for too many of those that did try it for it to be a hot button for me right now. (Karlina sucks, she's a ball-busting vicious mean blonde bitch dressed in skin-tight red leather -- armed with a riding crop no less) Ask Buckshot why he hasn't shot his Karlina yet.

Actually, it helped to push me up to 7mm bore size for my light cast bullet gun for plinking & varmint popping. I think my current project gun with the proposed 7mm Soup Can bullet has a lot more potential for high speed success than 6.5 ever did.

CBI spreadsheet said 6.5 Kurtz could get 2,400 fps before it started to open up and you alone managed to get up there (barely) with good accuracy.

CBI spreadsheet says 7mm Soup Can could get up to 3,400 fps before it starts to get dizzy. ****, I can't even imagine shooting the 7mm Soup Can that fast, although with a 7mm Remington Magnum you theoretically could boost it up around that fast with some pretty large charges of slow powder.

Now, which one will I spend the time bedding the barrel to the stock on and making sure the trigger is "just so" and the scope mounts are low and sweet and tight? Which one did I just go spend money on for a nice brand new un-banged-up Simmons 50mm scope for? You guessed it ....

If the 7mm Soup Can weighs 110-120 grains and it can be slow powder boosted to middle 20's speedwise (with good accuracy) then I've got my varmint & plinking cast round & my light carry rifle all doped out.

Plus, should I actually see a deer during hunting season (should some young buck actually fail to completely disappear during those magic few weeks) I'd pop him in the lungs in a heart-beat as the 7mm Soup Can would act about like a .243 Winchester bullet would as far as homogenizing a Bambi's breathing apparatus goes. Plus, I might even get me a wee little bitty exit wound out of him, on a side-on lung shot anyway .....

Now, if I was going for a Texas Train shot (a buck trailing a doe, both headed away from you) then I would pull out Karlina and lope off a cruise missile at his little round aiming spot.

I'd likely be able to tag the doe as an "accidental kill" and claim a miracle for the penetration that did it. 6.5x55 cast does have its useful niche, you know.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller

10-13-2005, 05:11 PM

Joe, what's wrong with the 7mm Soup Can as just re-diametered for the modern guns? I'm not following you completely as you are talking LEE standard bullet comparison stuff and you may be missing some items as you do so, being all focused on a land top rider bullet which does well in your gun that I don't even have unmodified to look at any more.

Just talking Soup Can design (counting from the nose, seating the gas check only just below the base of the neck) then the book 7mm-08 case mouth stops at the end of the second driver band (or just completely covering the third lube groove, counting from the nose on both items).

This lets me use the the second driver band to support a slight taper crimp "stop point" should I ever need to keep the bullets from moving back into the case during load/unload cycling type action -- say with some heavy rifling engagement for example.

My .160" long .286" diameter throat just barely covers the next two exposed driver bands (actually thrust seating the start of the first driver band into end of the throat on bolt-close, actually).

Talk about your pretty crush fits ....

The start of my rifling now engraves only the ogive curve and the .030" straight section at the end of the ogive. Now, with a different gun you should be able to move this bullet FORWARD in the case neck to accomodate your own particular gun in similar fashion because there is .284" worth of lateral forward seating motion available by design so the 7mm Soup Can should be able to snuggle up forward in a 7mm Remington Magnum to get a similar cuddly fit up - much less be able to cuddle up in your tight throated 7mm-08 Sako.

How deep is your Sako's throat anyway? Just distance from the case mouth to start of rifling, don't do any of that fancy back of case heat stuff (KISS works fine).

Ok, so now is the time to tell me what I screwed up -- we are still at the design talking stage and anything that can be ID'd and explained can be fixed.

Oldfeller

StarMetal

10-13-2005, 05:42 PM

Kelly,

That picture I posted of the 150 Loverin seated in a 7mm-08 has about .312 inch from the case mouth to the groove diameter of the nose, that is where the ogive tapers to the fattest point. This is snugging the bullet into the throat or leade in and letting the bolt seat the bullet so the action is totally closed. I haven't measure the throad with our pound method simply because the gun shoots so good why bother. If you are familar with the flat base Hornady 139 gr spire point, I can only seat this bullet in my Sako so that the cannelure is out of the case mouth and only about .0156 of the full bullet diameter is showing between the case mouth and cannelure. In other words barely seat it out longer then where it was meant to be crimped, if one were to crimp it which I do not. Why they come up with a super good round like the 7mm-08 and then limit the chamber to short bullets is beyond me when this little number could kick on the heels of the 280. Loading heavy lond bullets really cramps the powder capacity. But this is all another matter. I'm wondering why I would need a short light 7mm cast bullet when the Lee 135 does more for me then I really asked it to do. I mean almost 2700 fps and hovering that one inch group at 100 meters, shoot....plenty good enough for me and I wouldn't be shooting it that fast to begin with. That was just for Dan's contest. I could use a softer alloy and cut the velocity back to anywhere between 2200 fps and that 2700 and have a good load for ground hogs and deer.

Speaking of deer, I can't make up my mind if I want to shoot one this year with my 8x56R Steyr and your "Boxcar" bullet, or with my 260 and the 6.5 Kurtz bullet. Have to do the eenie meenie minie mo routine I suppose.

To tell you the truth I have that really lovely 1908 or is it 09 Brazilian 7x57 98 action rifle sitting in the safe and not being able to shoot it, well not accurately, because I don't have a 7mm bullet fat enough for it. It has a really good bore but it's fat. We talked about that before. So I'd lean towards a heavy fatter 7mm cast bullet like Buckshot.

Joe

C1PNR

10-13-2005, 06:09 PM

Hmmmmm. I may be able to use the .286 7mm kurtz in the Ruger 7 x 57, if that thing is willing to shoot anything well. And that would be the only FN design I have under 168 grain.

But I liked the .289 diameter for use in the Military 95's and the Brazilian. Buckshot, is this the one you were thinking of for the longer one:

I'd be willing to sign on for one of those in a 6 banger. Actually, I'll go for one of each, if either gets off the ground.

45 2.1

10-13-2005, 07:27 PM

You notice that the title was for 93 and 95 mausers which could also go for the 1908s and 35s. There isn't any boolit out there that fits their large throats except this one. On the other hand there are several that have an excellent reputation in the 7mm-08 at the right size no less. A nice fat bullet for the OLD rifles would get more of them shooting.

Oldfeller

10-14-2005, 12:44 AM

Go with the 6.5 Kurtz and the 260, the Boxcar is such a brutal bullet that it would get the SPCA after you if you got caught even carrying one in your pocket. Plus the recoil isn't all that pleasant to deal with should you actually go shoot one. Plus, you want some deer left after you shoot it, don't you?

Finesse and the 260, that's the ticket. Much easier on the nerves.

So, your Sako's throat is long enough to use the 7mm Soup Can (you'd actually have to seat if forward a bit to get to your 0.312" engagement point), you just don't see the need to go buy the mold as you really don't need it.

I can understand that, as I don't need El Longo as I don't have a 7x57 any more and I certainly don't need it as clean bored mil-surp 7x57s are all long long gone.

One of you 7x57 guys needs to step forward to Honcho a six banger run on El Longo on a different thread. It's a good bullet design, it just doesn't fit modern guns.

Now, back to discussing the MODERN 7mm Soup Can design -- anybody got any improvements or any questions???

Oldfeller

PS For you newbies, the .333 Boxcar was a second generation follow-on to Frankie that was created after Frankie took off on walkabout, never ever to be seen or heard from again. Frankie was short for Frankenstein and his son Boxcar was named after some big ugly football player who was supposedly even bigger and meaner than Frankenstein. The Boxcar was designed to be a bigger meaner "8mm" bullet than Bass's 250 grain 35 Whelen bullet that he designed to be bigger and meaner than the 250 grain 8mm Maximum (Midsouth) which was the reigning big mean hunting bullet for about 3 years or there abouts. The little bitty thing next to it is a 190 grain 30-30 case & bullet.

Joe is talking about going hunting with something much smaller than that ....

The great big print they are both lying on is to try to help you guys focus on the bullet this thread is named after. I know, you need reminding -- so do I from time to time.

StarMetal

10-14-2005, 12:50 AM

Kelly,

The Lee bullet snugs tight into my Sako's throat with the base of the bullet a tad about the neck/shoulder junction, about 1/16th of an inch.

I don't know, I have some unheat treated bullets loaded for Boxcar that I'm just itching to try on a deer.

Well I still have the one 7x57 Mauser, the dies, the one mould, and brass so I'd kinda like to get a fat mould for the rifle, or maybe even just sell it all.

Joe

Oldfeller

10-14-2005, 07:03 PM

Joe, you just want to go blow something up in a really gruesome fashion.

Knock yourself out (literally) and take a big digi picture of the exit wound & post it in living color. Bass had him a bambi with its entire liver hitting the ground, you should certainly be able to do better than that.

If you or somebody else wants to honcho a El Longo, go for it. This here is freedom hall, I ain't telling nobody they can't go do stuff.

I was asked in a PM if we could .284" diameter the ogive nose section and the first driver band on the 7mm Soup Can -- I guess the theory was that the bullet could be loaded forward into a slightly eroded throat and fit it better that way.

I betcha the guy has him a burn throated 7mm Magnum or a worn 7x57 Classic which needed the sloped reach. It would not hurt my 7mm-08 loading, so I really don't care either way. All it would mean is I would go forward with the crush loading one band width forward and that would be OK with me if it means the bullet fits more guns better.

Comments?

Oldfeller

StarMetal

10-14-2005, 07:10 PM

Kelly,

I did most my deer hunting on my own private property in Ohio with my 45-70 using the RCBS 405 gr GC bullet, WW's not heat treated and with a 1850 velocity and they didn't blow deer apart..but they sure killed them pretty fast. So my Boxcar untreated are going less then that 1850 so I don't expect them to blow a deer to smittereens.

Actually I'd like to have both, the short and the fat long. Here's a new twist I don't think anyone though of. Would Lee cut a six banger with 3 of one style bullet and 3 of another weight and style, both same caliber..7mm??? That would interest me.

Joe

Scrounger

10-14-2005, 07:43 PM

Oldfeller

10-15-2005, 11:38 AM

Ah, wrong -- Dougie would do it, but Pat would want to charge you the programming fee for EACH bullet type AND a premium charge per mold for changing over programs in the middle of a mold. Says "it slows things down" considerably.

The extra dollars charged suspiciously comes right up close to the cost of another complete mold ......

No, you are better off to have a separate mold for each bullet. Even at $56 a custom cut mold we are paying less than the cost of an RCBS or Saco mold, so what the heck.

If you want to save money I can see about listing El Longo and the 7mm Soup Can with Midsouth. They will likely be cut single cavity (no matter what we ask them to do or what they SAY initially they will do for us).

Or I can try to follow up with some of the conversations folks have been having with Lee Jr. on upgrading the Lee double cavity pistol blocks. The upgrade I'd most like to see is 3 cavities in the same size pistol blocks for those calibers small enough fit that way. As far as the block pins, I can leave that off personally because I force the handle set hinge pin to do a whole lot more locational work on my LEE molds by using fixatives on the mold-to-handle juctions after getting the mold all fixed up. My blocks always close in perfect alignment anyway .....

My main problem now is being gone out of town all the time chasing making a living. I can't really commit to squat without knowing up front that I'm likely to defaut on it for reasons outside my control.

Anyhow, here is the 7mm Soup Can with all the bells and whistles.

Oldfeller

junkbug

10-15-2005, 01:02 PM

Hello all;

Would such a mould be suitable for a 7-30 Waters in a Winchester 94 rifle. I see that it is specifically intended for the 7-08 and 7mm Rem Mag.

The 7-30 does not have a lot of neck to play with. And the Winchester 94 is a cartridge length fussy rifle.

I don't want to pass this by without asking though.

Thanks

Sean

StarMetal

10-15-2005, 01:09 PM

Junkbug

If the 7mm-08 one is made it would be very suitable for you 7mm 94 Winchester. Probably the now availiable Lee 135 gr 7mm bullet would probably work also. That's pretty cheap from Lee to give it a try.

Joe

Oldfeller

10-15-2005, 03:12 PM

Joe, that LEE 135 grainer is a pointy tip bullet. He might want the flat tip on the 7mm Soup Can for his potential magazine point-to-butt magazine type primer issues in his lever action 94 Winchester.

Yeah, it would work just dandy in a 7-30 Waters I would suspect.

I also suspect it will work real well my son-in-law's 7mm Remington Magnum. I will have to borrow the gun back to set up the installed length and play with it a bit, but I think this 7mm Soup Can has an outside chance of working at some high 20 type speed ranges if cast very hard and boosted with VERY slow powder.

I got some IMR 5010 BMG pull-down that specializes in very slow ...

In any case, the 7mm Rem Mag does not get shot much at all because of the high cost of the ammo to him -- he doesn't reload -- and the fact it is a loud racous firearm that isn't particularly pleasant to shoot a lot. To me it doesn't kick much at all, but to him it is noticeable.

BTW, before I start collecting checks -- are we really done with the design? Only two suggestions to incorporate?

Hey, this one might actually be easy.

Oldfeller

StarMetal

10-15-2005, 03:33 PM

Junkbug

Oldfeller is right, that Lee 135 is alittle pointy. You would want to flatten the tip if you use it in a tube fed lever action. Sorry.

Joe

junkbug

10-15-2005, 04:40 PM

Oldfeller and StarMetal;
Thanks for the responces, and yes I am interested. All the technical tweaking you are discussing is slightly over my head, but I am reading and trying to learn. Let us know when you are ready for action.

Take care.

Sean

Dutch4122

10-15-2005, 05:49 PM

I believe Oldfeller mentioned that the 7mm Soupcan would come out at 110-120 grains cast of wheelweights. What about the "el longo" boolit. A bit heavier I assume?

Oldfeller

10-15-2005, 07:14 PM

I'd guess 140-150 grain range for El Longo. 7mm Soup Can at 110-120 grains. These are guesses -- somebody could punch them into whatever they use for a cylindrical volume estimator and give us all a much better estimate on the weights.

El Longo failed previously to get enough 7x57 shooters to get a six banger run -- but it didn't get pushed very much on the other mil-surp lists either. Most lead shooting mil-surp cruffers visit here occasionally, so enough you cruffers who ARE reading this can carry word back to your home lists that if we are going to collect a run on El Longo --- and that a pretty rare Paul Mauser 7mm oversized diameter and length throat train is going to make one last run.

If you want El Longo, you are going to have to promote it enough to find 24 other souls like yourself. Failing that, you can split up the difference on the $100 design charge up among those you do find.

=================================================

Any more proposed changes for the 7mm Soup Can?

Right now it is a modern high speed soup can designed to load up & down the case neck to correctly throat fit a 7mm-08, 7mm Reminton Magnum, 7x57 Remington Classic (modern throat), 7mm TCU, 7mm BR Reminton, 7mm IHSA, 284 Winchester, 7x64, 7mm Express/280 Reminton, 7 Rem Short Ultra Mag, 7 Rem Ultra Mag, 7mm Shooting Times Westerner and 7-30 Waters.

It will not correctly best fit a 7mm Weatherby Magum nor a Paul Mauser standard throated 7x57 M93/M95 Mauser because of the enlarged diameter and much longer throats on those guns. (Roy and his free-bore -- gotta love him)

It has a theoretical 9 1/2 twist fps ceiling of 3,400 fps so it should be able to play in the mid to upper 20s speed range in reality. It is a 7mm adaptation of the LEE 30 Soup Can, a bullet which has a long history of great success in many 30 caliber guns over a wide range of speeds. Because of the good mix of caliber, weight and speed this bullet can fill the roles of low cost plinker, light varmint and small eastern deer bullet.

Look at your book weights and fps speeds for .243 Winchester and know this slug can be driven at those same speeds in those cartridges that have the case capacity to do it. Slap something made of meat at those full speeds with a hardened lead slug and something other than just that .170" flat meplat are coming apart, believe me. Maximum accuracy, you might have to throttle back to middle 20s to lower 20s to get your maximum accuracy levels.

The big seven magnums now have a cast slug they can practice and plink with that will not burn up more of their limited throat life. A six banger mold makes a lot of plinkers in a hurry and you should be shooting that main battery rifle more often anyway getting ready for hunting season.

If you want a six banger mold in the 7mm Soup Can please indicate your interest below. When we hit 10 interested I will begin to collect checks from folks. When we hit 25 checks I will cash them and order the molds.

DanWalker

10-15-2005, 09:39 PM

What's the price on a 2 cavity nowadays?
Might be interested if it'll work in my 7mm's(tcu and 7mm08)
Thanks,
Dan

Oldfeller

10-15-2005, 09:57 PM

Dan, we are collecting for a custom run 6 banger which costs $56. These guys are mold snobs who don't like the matching curves and roll pin construction used to align a two up LEE pistol mold and will drop $56 to get a better constructed mold (not that all the extra bullets per casting drop means anything to them, mind you).

You would pay $66 plus shipping to get it cut two up from Mountain Mold.

If you could talk LEE into it, a double up pistol mold would cost somewhere in the $30s. Trouble is, its a hard sell around this crew when $20 more buys you a much better constructed mold (and 3x the bullets per casting drop).

I do believe it will fit since you can slide it up and down your long case neck to find your perfect seating distance (engraving point).

Oldfeller

PS I've run out of picture space, so I am trimming non-vital pictures from this thread and putting the room into use in my permanent 7mm-08 rifle building "sticky" thread. If the list admin gives me more "manage attachments" drive space I'll put them back.

================================================== ===

"it is a modern high speed soup can designed to load up & down the case neck to correctly throat fit a 7mm-08, 7mm Reminton Magnum, 7x57 Remington Classic (modern throat), 7mm TCU, 7mm BR Reminton, 7mm IHSA, 284 Winchester, 7x64, 7mm Express/280 Reminton, 7 Rem Short Ultra Mag, 7 Rem Ultra Mag, 7mm Shooting Times Westerner and 7-30 Waters.

It will not correctly best fit a 7mm Weatherby Magum nor a Paul Mauser standard throated 7x57 M93/M95 Mauser because of the enlarged diameter and much longer throats on those guns."

TCLouis

10-15-2005, 11:37 PM

Yes put me down for one and PM me with address when you are ready to collect checks.

junkbug

10-16-2005, 01:55 AM

Sign me up.

I'm in.

Sean

Junior1942

10-16-2005, 08:00 AM

Ok, I'm in too. Dang. Right here at Christmas. . . .

Oldfeller

10-16-2005, 08:39 AM

Please PM me for my mailing address, them that don't already have it.
================================================== =

(are you absolutely sure we can't improve this thing any more ????)

(please do take a gander at the drawing again before mailing a check)

(are there any questions that need to get answered before plunking down your hard earned $56 ????)

Oldfeller

Junior1942

10-16-2005, 09:39 AM

>(please do take a gander at the drawing again before mailing a check)

I'd rather the front was .284 than .283, but I'll take .284.

45 2.1

10-16-2005, 02:32 PM

Ole Doug has been cutting all recent molds about .0005" to .0008" under minimum spec for awhile now. You will be lucky to get the minimum dimensions given that you are specing + or - .001". We have been specing -0.000" to +0.001" to try to combat such things. How about a 0.001" bump on those critical diameter dimensions.

Oldfeller

10-16-2005, 02:50 PM

Junior, the reasoning goes like this.

You have to give LEE some sort of production tolerance zone that gives their process room to vary a little bitty bit or they won't run your molds. They insist on .003" worth of tolerance spread to run a mold.

And we have to intelligently pick where that spread falls so our bullet designs will still work right. We don't want LEE picking it by default -- it would fall wherever they needed it to fall to cover a screwup.

On this particular bullet if we spec'd the nose at .284" they could make it .285" (within +/-.001" tolerance) and the nose wouldn't engrave any rifling because it was already too big to go into the .284" bore wall diameter in the first place.

(this got pointed out to me)

This is "balancing of the tolerance" so that it ranges from .282" to .284", all of which will engrave and all of which will load the nose on into the bore.

Say the nose is bottom of tolerance at .282" -- bullet loads and strongly engraves the rifling (supporting that tiny nose just fine until the first driver band butts up hard against the end of the throat). Ditto for .283" -- with .284" being a struggle to push the nose into the .284" bore because of positive lead displacement from the engraved rifling.

.285" isn't going in -- forget it, it will just push the bullet back into the boiler room.

Next, strongly engraved noses positively displace a zone of lead to the left and right of the rifling land groove. We learned that this can cause the not quite bore diameter nose to grow in diameter due to simple lead displacement so that it becomes a sweged out full bore diameter. This trick works IF the nose is very close to the bore diameter anyway, only a thou or two off.

This is same trick was used in the 6.5 Cruise Missile and both the 8mm Midsouth bullets. This 7mm Soup Can nose is VERY close to bore diameter and the land displacement trick applies to it as well.

Lastly, most folks want to be able to unload an engraved round without pulling the bullet out of the case neck and dumping powder down inside their action. This is WHY the trick was developed for the big 8mm slugs -- it allowed a fully supported nose that was both load-able and able to be extracted without pulling a bullet all the time.

(and this got pointed out to me, too)

=================

So Jr. asked a good question and this is the sort of question people SHOULD BE ASKING before they plunk down their money. They should be able to see the design in detail so they make intellegent choices on how they spend their money.

Oldfeller

45 2.1

10-16-2005, 03:02 PM

This is same trick was used in the 6.5 Cruise Missile and both the 8mm Midsouth bullets. This 7mm Soup Can nose is VERY close to bore diameter and the land displacement trick applies to it as well. Oldfeller

Sorry, but when you cut the first band done on both designs after I told you don't do it. Neither one will nose engrave on the front band on any of the two dozen rifles i've tried it in. From new to well used your reasoning didn't work.

StarMetal

10-16-2005, 03:33 PM

That's what I've been thinking all along, what 45 2.1 said. I don't think the short one would even engrave on my very short throated Sako 7mm-08, as it is I have to seat the Lee 135 out of the case some.

Joe

Oldfeller

10-16-2005, 04:27 PM

Bob, the point was land displacement -- did it increase the nose diameter as the lands engraved or or not?

Which one are you talking about anyway, the 8mms or the 6.5? Neither one were cut to print on the first runs (remember, I had to hand lap the first 100 6.5 molds to get them UP in size to the main body diameters that folks had signed up for). The 8mms were spec'd at .323" on the nose portion, they came in small on the first runs and folks still complained about them jamming tight and pulling bullets.

Right now, they come in at .820" on the nose (don't ask me why -- I couldn't tell you). But they don't seem to have the bullet pulling complaint issues either.

I also sense some of the same people who wanted a 7x57 Paul Mauser sized bullet (which really needs to be larger) are trying to get this one to be as large as possible. And that ain't a bad thing, as long as all the rest of the folks understand the trade off is going to be some amount of modern gun short loading, some push-back into the boiler-room and a few sticking bullets that get pulled with powder going everywhere in the action.

Now, in a recent PM I have been reminded that Douggie and LEE tend to cut everything undersized. Yep, that's a fact. Should we OS these bullets to "cover" this? Maybe. Or we could just insist they cut the bullets to print while measuring everything with WW metal.

Both methods would work if pursued with diligence.

But whatever takes place I will adjust the print, call your attention to it and everyone will see it and understand what is going on if we do do something to the bullet design. I'm not going to do smoke & mirrors behind a curtain like the Wizard of Oz did to Dorothy, I'll tell you up-front the what and the why behind it.

Nor am I adverse to upping the nose diameter to .284" nominal, just so EVERYBODY understands what risks they are taking by doing so.

I think talking this stuff out publically increases the knowledge of the people involved and makes for a better bullet. Certainly it makes for better informed choices.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller

10-16-2005, 04:40 PM

Joe, your Sako has had the throat deepened (you told us so, remember) and it engraves at .312"? from the case mouth (you said so). As I mentioned earlier while you were talking about your LEE bullet, all you have to do is run the bullet out in the neck some .052" to get the same seat that I would get. Or further, if you wanted an even tighter crush fit.

Heck, you still have a whopping .220" worth of unused "run forward" left in your case neck anyway. Some folks (like 7mag guys) will run forward in the neck a goodly amount compared to you.

Yours is not the shortest 7mm-08 throat seen by the group. Even mine is shorter, engraving at .160" from the case mouth.

How about the 7 TCUs? Did you guys think about them any? I get PMs from people who own all sorts of 7mm cases and I am balancing the bullet to meet all these various needs.

Remember, this is NOT supposed to be designed to fit the large Paul Mauser throats .... it is for the modern 7mm guns as listed.

Oldfeller

StarMetal

10-16-2005, 05:25 PM

Kelly,

NO, the Sako has never been touched and never will be. I deepened the throat on my 260 as it's ridiculousy short for a caliber where the bullets are long for calibler.

That was just a guess on the Sako throat, you can guess at it's length looking at how deep I have to seat those Lyman 150 gr loverins from the picture I posted.

Joe

P.S. If you remember in one of the previous post I told you that when I load the Hornady 139 gr jacketed flatbase bullet the farthest I can seat it out is a heavy 1/32 inch to a light 1/16 inch. Is that a .312 throat, I don't think so. Why the Lyman 150 gr Loverin seats out further then the 139 jacketed I don't know.

Joe

45 2.1

10-16-2005, 06:01 PM

Bob, the point was land displacement -- did it increase the nose diameter as the lands engraved or or not?
Not materially

Which one are you talking about anyway, the 8mms or the 6.5? Neither one were cut to print on the first runs (remember, I had to hand lap the first 100 6.5 molds to get them UP in size to the main body diameters that folks had signed up for). The 8mms were spec'd at .323" on the nose portion, they came in small on the first runs and folks still complained about them jamming tight and pulling bullets.
Both designs, the front band didn't engrave enough. Nose diameters were ok in all rifles tried except one.

Right now, they come in at .820" on the nose (don't ask me why -- I couldn't tell you). But they don't seem to have the bullet pulling complaint issues either.
No problems with any bullet pulling in all i've tried, feeding iisues from too big of a meplat though.

I also sense some of the same people who wanted a 7x57 Paul Mauser sized bullet (which really needs to be larger) are trying to get this one to be as large as possible. And that ain't a bad thing, as long as all the rest of the folks understand the trade off is going to be some amount of modern gun short loading, some push-back into the boiler-room and a few sticking bullets that get pulled with powder going everywhere in the action.
The design I originally posted was for the military rifles, you took it and changed it.

Now, in a recent PM I have been reminded that Douggie and LEE tend to cut everything undersized. Yep, that's a fact. Should we OS these bullets to "cover" this? Maybe. Or we could just insist they cut the bullets to print while measuring everything with WW metal.
If you can figure out how to get Dougs attention every time, you tell us all. We have been getting something other than what we spec most of the time.

Both methods would work if pursued with diligence.
Wait until you deal with them again, things have changed somewhat.

But whatever takes place I will adjust the print, call your attention to it and everyone will see it and understand what is going on if we do do something to the bullet design. I'm not going to do smoke & mirrors behind a curtain like the Wizard of Oz did to Dorothy, I'll tell you up-front the what and the why behind it.
Waiting

Nor am I adverse to upping the nose diameter to .284" nominal, just so EVERYBODY understands what risks they are taking by doing so.
That would be ok, but the bands will be somewhat useless if at 0.285" or under.

Oldfeller

Darned thing won't post as above without five characters down here.

TCLouis

10-16-2005, 08:56 PM

Oldfellar

Yes I considered it for the TCU and that is what I am gonna shoot it out of. That is the reason I jumped on the mold.

I do have a 7X57 barrel and action, they just aren't screwed together, but they may just join up after I get this mold.

The smaller diameter nose is preferable to me as the fat nose on the 180 35 and the standard 429310 cause me to seat deeper than I want to just to chamber a round.

Oldfeller

10-17-2005, 01:52 AM

Bob, sizer dies in 7mm only come in two sizes currently, .284" and .285" diameters. Most modern throats in the modern guns the 7mm Soup Can bullet is intended to fit are .285" in throat diameter.

Making the bullet driver bands larger than .286" nominal +/-.001" would only help a very few folks who have customized their sizers or who have some older examples of sizers from back when 7x57 mil-surp was more common and bigger sizers were available.

I'm game for it if the group wants to do it, but it doesn't really help the current crop of modern throated 7mm guys out any. Every thousandth of unnecessary sizing hurts them accuracy-wise, actually.

================================================

The front driver band on the 6.5 Swede was sized very carefully to seat in the taper zone at the end of the throat -- it could never get to the rifling, not without being crushed thousands of an inch (along with the next driver band to a lesser degree too). Plus, bullets loaded that far out would never have gone into the box magazine. Ditto for the first driver bands in the big 8mms in a Paul Mauser throat.

The only 8mm guns that could engrave the front band at the time were the Yugo M48 A guns (the Turks weren't out yet). You had one and you did crush engrave into the Karabiner's front band -- posted some pretty nice groups too as I remember.

And yes, I did change the drawings, added tolerancing and negotiated the bullets sucessfully with LEE and Midsouth. I had to do the some of the same for the last bullet that you me and Buckshot did. And no, I don't mind you asking questions about design details about any bullet old or new and yes you will get a clear, easy to understand answer.

Remember, it is the Honcho who is responsible for the fit up issues .... he is the one holding the bag when the music stops.

This crap about "LEE cuts the molds so take your problems back to LEE" is a ******** cop-out, especially if the detailed design drawing is never posted so folks 1) actually know what they are getting into and 2) they have a fully notated drawing in their hands so they have a basis to even go back to LEE for "things not being cut to print".

Peer review is part of group bullet buys -- design secrecy sucks (my opinion anyway).

Oldfeller

Oldfeller

10-17-2005, 02:17 AM

Dear Joe,

First, I'm sorry I mis-remembered which gun you had lengthened the throat on -- my bad, I appologise to you. I was wrong.

Now, the throat on your 7mm-08 is how long from case mouth to start of rifling?

Next, I don't want to guess at anything looking at a picture. You have actually measured your rifling engagement distance to the case mouth more carefully now so you could post the new number if you wanted to do so. Then we could talk about it since it does pertain to your earlier comments about "it won't fit". We don't want to confuse all the new persons any worse than we already have.

<g>

See, I can eat crow -- watch me spit out the feathers.
Crow ain't so bad -- I think we all get to munch some around here eventually.

<g>

Oldfeller