40-65 and paper patched bullets

[country gent]

Im going to try paper patching 40 cal bullets for my 40-65. I have a 391 dia 420 grn flat base mould coming. Im planning on casting them 20-1 lead tin. with Seth Cole paper should wrap up to .399. I also have onion skin and several 25% and 100% cotton fiber tracing papers here to try. I plan on using these in the local shillouette matches for grins and giggles. That and I like experimenting. Im firguring off the top of my head around 60 grns 2f old ensford a .060 wad .060 grease cookie and playing card wad compressed to seat bullet into case .250 to start. ANy ideas thoughts or information will be greatly appreciated. I have paper patched 45s for my 45-90 and 45-70 with good results. Thanks for any and all information in advance

[dave roelle]

What fouling control plan are you going to use ?

Dave

[country gent]

I normally blow tube but can wipe also, Ill let the load/rifle tell me

[BrentD]

Wipe. Don't even bother trying blow tubing. But you will need a pretty carefully engineered system for shooting paper patches at silhouette. Not many do it and few do it well.

Your bullet sounds a bit on the skinny side. What is your barrel's bore diameter?
Brent

[MT Chambers]

I thought that most .40s needed bullets that were minimally .410-.412"??

[BrentD]

The .40 that I'm building is .401/bore .408/groove and needs a .402 paper patched bullet.

[country gent]

Had the rifle out today with another batch of test loads. Better conditions for light temp was still on the chilly side with the light wind blowing. Load was basicaly the same as above with both SPG and emmerts improved lube. And 10 rounds with pacon tracing paper. Seated a little shallower in the case at .120 or so. Groups were around 2 mins with some nice clusters of 3 starting. I also found a bottle of JoJoba oil and lightly wiped the patches with it, just enough to give a shine to the paper but not discolor or turn it transparent. Bore is .400 on this rifle my patched bullets today were with Seth cole .397-.398 and the pacon was .399. Im going to try 66 grns powder next. The emmerts home made shot better than the SPG today also but this batch is softer and loading thru 10-15 rounds was easy and shots stayed in the group. the few fliers were called and on call. Iused the same load as earlier just didnt compress quite as much. Fouling was really light. 3-4 strokes with a nylon brush. 3 patches and last patch showed small light grey streaks is all. I did clean every 10-15 rounds today depending on the group. No paper rings no leading. Patches were cut into strips both layers with 1-2 remaining on the base wrap. Loads today were 1 minute below my grease groove load. Muzzle had a nice lube star on it, not as big as with grease grooved bullets but adequate and soft and greasy feeling. Thigs are improving each time out now.

[Don McDowell]

Sounds like it's coming around for you. I'm hoping to get a bit of testing done with the 40-70 Hepburn tomorrow. Have about 50 rounds loaded and waiting for the weather to cooperate.

[SPG Sales]

Do you have Randy Wrights book: Loading & Shooting Paper Patched Bullets?

[country gent]

Yes I have Mr Wrights book its very informative and good. Also have several of Paul Matthews books onpaper patching and one by a G. Loomis. Its interesting to play around with this and figure it out. Don your recomendation of the JoJoba oil seems to have helped me alot here. I just need to find away to consistantly apply it now. What I applied yesterday was just enough to make the paper wrap shiny but not discolor it. That sould about right, More, less? I saw alot of the patches but only picked up a very few since the wind breeze removed them before I could get to them. ( the firing line at the club is concrete and gravel in front those little bits of paper really scoot accros them. The best load yesterday was 2 1/2" wide and 3" tall at 200 yds others were in that range some a little bigger.

[Don McDowell]

Glad to hear it's helping, it usually does, but sometimes it makes not much difference. Yes the paper gets a bit of shine while the oil is fresh.
What I do when applying the jojoba, is put your finger over the mouth of the bottle and give the bottle a quick tip. Then gently wipe the exposed paper, that's usually enough to wipe 2 44-45 caliber bullets, until you're about half thru a box of 50 then can get 3 or more. But right after wiping the bullet, wipe off the excess with a cloth. Remington said that's how to do it in 1875 and it still works most of the time today.

[country gent]

I had been looking int he cosmetics aisle of stores for it, Saturday I found the 100% pure JoJoba oil in the organic food aisle, never thought to look there for it.

[Don McDowell]

Yep that's where I get the stuff. If you have a GNC store nearby they sell it in 4 0z bottles, which is purtneart a lifetime supply for wiping paper patches.
I did get to run a few rounds thru the Hepburn. The thing is seeming to like the 1.5 oe, Jamison cases, and the BACO .396 money bullet cast from 18-1 and patched with the seth cole paper.

[country gent]

.396???? Sounds big for 38-55. I can see that I got a 4 0unce bottle saturday and wided 40 bullets with it and another 60 or so today. I cant see where the level dropped any in the bottle. That stuff is slick though. With the numbness in my hands after a few bullets and it worked into my fingers I cant hardly hang on to a bullet. LOL

[Don McDowell]

This Hepburn is a 40-70 ss.
Yup that jojoba is so slick stuff.

[country gent]

Okay, I was thinking 38-55 for some reason.

[country gent]

Okay , I started with a patch width that ended just below the ogive and accuracy was so so and varied from group to group day to day.I increased width to basically right at the ogive body junction and things seemed a little better. Im now at about .030 ahead of the ogive body junction and groups are tighter and much more consistant. I wrap with no tail, About .090-.100 circle shows in center of base wrap of patch. and the patch is around .030 ahead of the junction body and ogive. What has been your observations on patch start and end performance? Is the above normal in the paper Patch use. Im getting into very acceptable accuracy and repeatable results. True Accuracy isnt one group but what the rifle can do groupto group day to day.

[BrentD]

I patch to the ogive unless I'm shooting over fouling. Accuracy is superb.

In fact, with a new mould, I will mark the ogive on the mould be taking a newly cast bullet, reversing it in the mould and inserting it as far up as it will go. Then I open the mould and scratch the mould along the base of the bullet first on one side of the mould, then the other. This produces a faint line that makes it just a little easier to get th patch positioned.

For all of that, I don't think the position of the paper is very critical at all. It might be one of the least important aspects of paper patching.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Bullets/Prolate%20534%20g%20small.jpg

[Don McDowell]

What I've found is it's like a lot of other things, what works for one bullet in one rifle may not be worth a flip on the next set up.
A person needs to find what works and go with it.

[BrentD]

Funny, all my rifles work the same.

[country gent]

I was out and tested the loads again today at the club 64 grns 2f old ensford and the 420 grn 40 cal baco bullet pached with 2 diffrent papers (repeat of best last sunday) did around 3 1/2" at 200 yds again. Then upped charge to 66 grns with the 2 papers for around 3" groups. It was colder, windier and less light today so that may have had some effect also. Had a nice lube star on muzzle. Blow tubed 2 breaths each shot and loading was smooth and easy. With the tracing paper bullets measured .398 after light wipe with JoJoba oil and the artists paper (.0003 thicker) measured .399 dia after the light wipe of oil. These 2 pacon brand papers didnt seem to absorb the oil like the Seth Cole does. Temp was only around 40 degrees wind was 10 mph or so and gust to 20-25 running from 10:00-2:00. Light was down some and this is a south facing range to boot. Cases looked good after firing no blow back on them. Patches werent recovered do to wind conditions.

[Don McDowell]

Sounds pretty good.

[country gent]

Im having fun, and learning. Todays conditions werent as good as last weeks but groups were same or very close. I very lightly polished the mould after the last session with shimichrome metal polish since bullets were sticking in the one half always requiring a couple taps to remove them. With my small hole gage It looks like I might have opened it up .001 on dia, but under magnification the surface is much smoother. The added dia now may make the seth cole paper work much better. Im hoping as the pacon tracing paper thats working best now I only have 1 pad of and cant find any more.

[Don McDowell]

Staples Office supply store has some usable papers in their drafting section. They have some rolled 8# paper that is very similar to Seth Cole.

[country gent]

Why is it when you start to find or find a good load one of the components change or dry up. I have 2 rolls of the seth cole 8 lp and one of the 7 lb (.0011 thk) a ream of onion paper from the paper store, some onion paper from Baco, and several from diffrent stores.

[Don McDowell]

Seems that's just the way things go. When I got my 405 winchester, I tried many powders and finally got some RL 12.. about 6 months after they discontinued it... Luckily tho I found another couple of cans and bought those and they are stored in a mostly controlled environment unopened...
Moral of the story I think is be quick about testing and then buy a lifetime supply of the stuff that works the best.

[country gent]

I my have a couple lbs of reloader 12 back on the bench yet from my high power days. I know theres a couple 8lbers or R15 and Varget. I know I got that pacon tracing paper at local wallmarts and now they swithed to pacon artists paper. Ill keep watching if it shows up Ill buy all thats on the shelf LOL.

[BrentD]

If you punch "pacon tracing paper" into google, you will have no problem finding a pile of it.

[country gent]

Thanks Brent, If one of these other papers dont pan out Ill have to do that. Its just seems what ever I have theleast of or is unavailable is what works the best almost always. LOL. I have 2 lbs of Norma MRP Im gaurding as my 300 win mag shines with it and its no longer available. I did the load work up with it not knowing it was "obsolete".

[semtav]

I have 2 lbs of Norma MRP Im gaurding as my 300 win mag shines with it and its no longer available. I did the load work up with it not knowing it was "obsolete".


Thats odd. I'm pretty sure I just bought a pound of it to test my PP 8mm loads with.

[Lead pot]

When it comes to paper for patching I'm pretty particular what I use. There is a difference how it releases and shreds.
I favor cotton parchment deed onion skin with a cockle finish.
I pick my paper that acts like a ink blotter, :) I guess not many know what that is any more, :) But I like the paper when you drop a drop of water on it, it soaks through. Paper like the thin translucent like vellum has a place if you like to use it during wet conditions or carry it in your pockets when hunting and snow could drop into your pocket. and it works ok but it stays on the bullet farther.
Buying onion skin paper like 7.5# 8# 9# does not mean that the 7# is thinner then the 9#. I have 9# 100% cotton that is .0016" thick and 7.5# that is .0019" thick. The sizing that is added to the paper that makes it shiny and holds the ink from bleeding through is what adds to the weight to the paper, not the thickness.
If you can find some of the discontinued Southworth paper like the 100% 8-D that is a 7.5# that is .00186" thick or the 29-D that is 75% 9# .0018 thick. 409 DNR 25% that is .00214" thick. All of those are a cockle finish which will stretch a little when you wrap it and the cotton sort of acts like Velcro to hold the wrap folded under tight and it shreds into fine strips. and releases right in front of the muzzle if the wind is calm.
I see it in accuracy comparing the 100% parchment deed compared to the 100% cotton Vellums that are translucent tracing papers.
The problem with the onion skin Southworth that was mostly used for typewriters for making carbon copies is very hard to find.

[country gent]

Lead pot, The ream of onion paper I have here is schoellershammer purchased from the papermill store on line. Its .0016 thick. label dosnt give a pounds wieght but there is a 4.9M designation This is a german made paper. It does seem to absorb waters quicker and easier than some I have. If youd like I could send you a few sheets easy enough.

[Lead pot]

CG I appreciate the offer but I think I have enough to last my time behind the buttplate. I found a dusty basement in a down town office supply store that had some.

[country gent]

Got a semi Calmn day yesterday with the 40-65 and the PP bullet Im working with. Set Cole 8 lb paper 2 wraps 45* ends .030 gap between. .100 open center in base wrap. Actually seen and recovered some of the patches for the first time. They looked good most pieces were confetti just strips rifling width. A few under wraps were forunf with only afew stringers hanging on. Base wrap was intact no burns and patches generaly looked good. These were wiped lightly with Jo Joba oil. Groups werent quite as good as before but light was down and wind at times also. Patches were pretty much found 3feet from the muzzle on the ground.

[jimofaz]

"Funny, all my rifles work the same."

+1

Although I did have to ask BACO to make me a 385 grain .396" diameter PP mould for my Shiloh .40-60 Maynard LRE. That was about as long a bullet I could get to stabilize in my early-B series 1874 with its 18" twist. Shiloh has since dropped the .40-60 Maynard from their chamber options, BUT are now using a 16" twist (IIRC) for all of their .40 caliber offerings. My 1877 Shiloh (25 months now & counting on backorder) may end up coming to me with a .40-50 SS chamber if I feel adventurous when it hits the shop floor and I have to 'get off the pot' as it were. This is assuming I live long enough!:lol: Good things are worth waitin' for. Makes finally gettin' it all the sweeter.

Jim

[BrentD]

This is the one that BACO made for me and which will be going into a 14 twist .40-65. I think it would be just fine in a 16-twist as well, at least to the ram line anyway.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Search.aspx?TERM=JIM395415E

[BRUCE MOULDS]

that bullet in 0.396 works well breech seated in my 40/72.
it is firm to seat with a push seater.
the full case takes 85 gn os swiss 1.0 or 1.5 droptubed in, and a 0.060 wad.
brent, check your mail.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BrentD]

No mail yet, Bruce.