Apparently this is what happens when...

[outdoorfan]

An NOE 360230 slams into hard metal at 1850 fps.

Bullet weight is 231 grains. Alloy is ww's + 2% tin, aircooled for 13-14 bhn.

Launch velocity is 2000 fps. Impact at approx 45 yards. Launch platform is Winchester 94 in 35/30-30 (JES rebore).

I had some grade 8 nuts welded on the top of the 8" AR500 swingers. Guess I have to get this fixed. Sigh...

[rondog]

I hang my 8" AR500 plate with 3/8" chains. I've found that .30-06 M2 ball from my Garand is quite effective on those poor chain links! I believe the term ***** applies well here.

[MediumCore358]

Surprising the power of lead in certain combinations of velocity/alloy/weight/distance. That damage is pretty cool in my opinion. I'm getting some crater action w/ Lee 358 105 grain Swc hardball/linotype alloy in .357 brass shot @ 1700fps from
Rossi 92

[GhostHawk]

I had an 8" AR500 3/8 plare, 8" round.
Then shot my Mosin at it. It did not quite go clear through, but those were light loads of 28 gr of IMR 4895 under the lee .312 185 gr gas check design which had been beagled and sized .314.

[outdoorfan]

I had an 8" AR500 3/8 plare, 8" round.
Then shot my Mosin at it. It did not quite go clear through, but those were light loads of 28 gr of IMR 4895 under the lee .312 185 gr gas check design which had been beagled and sized .314.

What was the distance that you had the 8" plate set at that they were almost going through?

[outdoorfan]

Surprising the power of lead in certain combinations of velocity/alloy/weight/distance. That damage is pretty cool in my opinion. I'm getting some crater action w/ Lee 358 105 grain Swc hardball/linotype alloy in .357 brass shot @ 1700fps from
Rossi 92

I find that I crater the AR500 steel with those load combination even out to about 200 yards. That's nuts! When I first got the plates, which are 3/8 thick, I figured I'd be able to shoot lead at inside 100 yards and not crater the plates. I guess lead does pack a punch!

[leftiye]

I think it melts the steel.

[John Allen]

Yowsers, Nothing like a big heavy slug coming to a fast stop!

[rr2241tx]

Weld your nuts behind the target surface and then all you have to do is patch the chain.

[45-70 Chevroner]

What is a 35/30-30? The picture looks like a longer 357 max.

[Tackleberry41]

Its surprising what some weapons will do to steel target over others. Friend has a couple hanging at his house, they take alot of abuse, he had a 338 Lapua at one time. But he was shocked at how deep a crater a 22 hornet made, just some factory FMJ I had bought was using up. The hornet did more than the 223s being fired at them.

[outdoorfan]

Weld your nuts behind the target surface and then all you have to do is patch the chain.

Good idea. But then I can't reverse the plate. Always compromises, isn't there?

[outdoorfan]

What is a 35/30-30? The picture looks like a longer 357 max.

One of the original wildcats. I was looking for 35 Remington ballistics in a lever gun platform, but I didn't want to have to deal with the scarcity of brass. So, I had my 30-30 rebored by JES for $225. I anneal, then resize the brass in a special die from CH4D. There is still a shoulder there, but not much.

35/30-30 could also be 35/32, but it seems the 30-30 brass and rifle platform is where the conversion usually originates the most often.

Recoil can be stout on the Win 94 platform (20" barrel). I put a pachmyr pad on mine 'cause the steel butt plate was brutal. Even with the decelerator pad, when I shoot it prone for 30+ shots, my shoulder does develop bruising/discoloration.

[outdoorfan]

22 hornet!? Who da thunk it? Strange stuff.

Thanks for sharing.

[outdoorfan]

Truth is, that was the first time I had shot steel at under 100 yards with the 35/30. I don't think I will be doing it again. The violence that it unleashed on those poor targets was brutal.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is a wise decision. The risks aren't great, and a couple of hundred yards is probably ample for such an unaerodynamic missile as fragmented lead, if one exists. But what do you lose by not doing it? At the very least you should wear good shooting glasses. I remember a 1960s "American Rifleman" article in which a man fired at a piece of railway iron. I forget the range, but it might have been twenty yards or so. He got a piece of bullet jacket the diameter of a cigarette lodged behind his eyeball, and although his sight was saved by an operation (which must have been an expensive one), it could as easily have been a half-inch in any direction.

I've done it at 100 yard with my .300H&H, although I probably wouldn't again. It must have had close to 3000ft./sec. left with 190gr. softpoints, and that is reaching the velocities at which bullet hardness matters less and less. (The extreme is the squirt of liquid aluminium from a hollow charge missile.) They punched conical holes through half-inch plate, and in 3/4in. made a deep, frilly-edged crater with sufficient swelling and cracking at the back that you wouldn't want to be behind it. In very thick brass they made round cavities, and in both cases the broken metal was lead-plated, but probing revealed it to be of no appreciable thickness.

Most disturbingly perhaps, in the brass cavities, several times over, I found a little copper button which was the base of the Nosler solid based boat-tails. It wasn't really some unrecognized intelligence out to get me, but it was getting to seem mighty like it. Who is to say whether the rest of it shot back in a straight line?

[Ola]

The rule: shooting at metal -> use glasses. ALWAYS.

Almost a bullet size fragments have hit me in the arm, leg and forehead with enough force to cause bleeding.

[45-70 Chevroner]

One of the original wildcats. I was looking for 35 Remington ballistics in a lever gun platform, but I didn't want to have to deal with the scarcity of brass. So, I had my 30-30 rebored by JES for $225. I anneal, then resize the brass in a special die from CH4D. There is still a shoulder there, but not much.

35/30-30 could also be 35/32, but it seems the 30-30 brass and rifle platform is where the conversion usually originates the most often.

Recoil can be stout on the Win 94 platform (20" barrel). I put a pachmyr pad on mine 'cause the steel butt plate was brutal. Even with the decelerator pad, when I shoot it prone for 30+ shots, my shoulder does develop bruising/discoloration.
Sounds like a great caliber conversion choice for the 30-30 case. I have two 38-55 Marlins. Marlins are a little heaver than the Winy 94, but 38-55 max loads in the Marlins are not much fun either. I have a TC Contender 14" barrel with a 2" extension in 357 Max so I can shoot it as a rifle but would sure like to have a 92 or a94 in 357 max.

[303Guy]

Does the 'shoulder' have any head-spacing abilities or is it too shallow (it looks too shallow)? It looks and sounds like a great cartridge! Perhaps an ideal cast boolit round with it's long neck and what seems to me to be ideal case capacity.

[outdoorfan]

Does the 'shoulder' have any head-spacing abilities or is it too shallow (it looks to shallow)? It looks and sounds like a great cartridge! Perhaps an ideal cast boolit round with it's long neck and what seems to me to be ideal case capacity.


The 30-30 case is rimmed, therefore headspaces that way. At least, that's my understanding.

I agree that the longer neck of the 30-30 and brass availability make it about ideal for cast when converted to 35 caliber. I am really enjoying this one!

[outdoorfan]

Sounds like a great caliber conversion choice for the 30-30 case. I have two 38-55 Marlins. Marlins are a little heaver than the Winy 94, but 38-55 max loads in the Marlins are not much fun either. I have a TC Contender 14" barrel with a 2" extension in 357 Max so I can shoot it as a rifle but would sure like to have a 92 or a94 in 357 max.

Thanks for commenting.

One thing I did notice (as it applies to felt recoil) is that, in this application, powders like Varget, RL-15, BLC-2, Leverevolution, and 4895 really increase the felt recoil without giving much advantage to velocity. Benchmark, which is what I settled on, is a little faster burning, produces more velocity with less powder than the others. I suppose 3031 probably falls into this group, as well.

I noticed the same thing between 4831 and 4350 when it came to the larger cases. 4350 got me better velocity with less felt recoil.

[303Guy]

The 30-30 case is rimmed, therefore headspaces that way. At least, that's my understanding. Quite so but being able to head-space on a shoulder means case life will be greatly increased as there will be no headspace clearance (there has to be a clearance on the rim for reliable chambering).

[jhalcott]

I shot thru a silliwet pig target with a factory .17remington. The club was trying to see what caliber/s could do this. Several winchester and Weatherby mags did crater the metal but none went thru. It was hanging at a hundred yards. A couple of larger calibers did spin it off the stand.

[Hickok]

I shot thru a silliwet pig target with a factory .17remington. The club was trying to see what caliber/s could do this. Several winchester and Weatherby mags did crater the metal but none went thru. It was hanging at a hundred yards. A couple of larger calibers did spin it off the stand..220 Swift and 22/250 Remington burn through steel too. I would think the .204 cartridge would work also.

[outdoorfan]

Quite so but being able to head-space on a shoulder means case life will be greatly increased as there will be no headspace clearance (there has to be a clearance on the rim for reliable chambering).

My observation is that this hasn't been a problem.

[303Guy]

My observation is that this hasn't been a problem.All the more reason why I should want one! :mrgreen: I think it would be just dandy on a Lee Enfield action. Mind you, I'm thinking it's just dandy as a lever gun cartridge! It would be great for a break action too.

I found some load data on the 35-30 or 35/30-30 (35-30 would the 'technically correct' name for it). It's been around since the beginning of last century but never made it as a commercial cartridge. Not a cat sneeze cartridge! I don't understand why not.

[Buck Neck It]

I am surprised that you have no feeding issues? Your bullet is almost as blunt as a wadcutter.

[outdoorfan]

Yeah, no kidding. That 360230 has a .28 meplat with sharp edges on the nose. But it runs like clockwork through the Win 94. AOL is an issue, though. I have it at 2.5". Any much shorter than that and it wants to hang up.

303Guy, when I stumbled into the concept of the 35-30 I just about did a back flip. Not a whole lot is going to stop a 230 grain chunk of lead at 2000 fps. Unless ranges are exceeding 200 yards or so, this cartridge more or less takes the cake for me. In a fast handling lever gun with peep sights, it sure is fun & effective.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The 30-30 case is rimmed, therefore headspaces that way. At least, that's my understanding.

I agree that the longer neck of the 30-30 and brass availability make it about ideal for cast when converted to 35 caliber. I am really enjoying this one!

Yes, it should headspace on the rim, and it would probably be best if the chamber and dies make sure the shoulder doesn't make contact. There is always likely to be some variation in springiness of the brass, expansion of a hot barrel etc., and it would be harmful to accuracy if one round makes contact at the shoulder and the next doesn't.

[outdoorfan]

Yes, it should headspace on the rim, and it would probably be best if the chamber and dies make sure the shoulder doesn't make contact. There is always likely to be some variation in springiness of the brass, expansion of a hot barrel etc., and it would be harmful to accuracy if one round makes contact at the shoulder and the next doesn't.

Thanks for the explanation. I have noticed that on the first firing, even though the brass was resized in a 35-30 die, upon chambering the round it does tend to want to be a little sticky and need that final nudge at the end of the working of the lever. It seems that after the first firing that kind of goes away. I'm still trying to figure that out. Could have something to do with the mixed brass I've been using, also. Seating depth probably isn't a factor, as I have it set up to sort of kiss the lands, but not quite.

I do have as many as 10-12 firings on Remington cases, and I haven't had one fail yet in any way.

[JSnover]

Weld your nuts behind the target surface and then all you have to do is patch the chain.
This, plus run the chain through a piece of loose-fitting pipe.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thanks for the explanation. I have noticed that on the first firing, even though the brass was resized in a 35-30 die, upon chambering the round it does tend to want to be a little sticky and need that final nudge at the end of the working of the lever. It seems that after the first firing that kind of goes away. I'm still trying to figure that out. Could have something to do with the mixed brass I've been using, also. Seating depth probably isn't a factor, as I have it set up to sort of kiss the lands, but not quite.

I do have as many as 10-12 firings on Remington cases, and I haven't had one fail yet in any way.

This sounds like a pretty healthy situation, with minimal working of the brass. I don't see why the shoulder position should be any different on a full-length sizing of new and fired brass, though. It might be that stamping of the headspace or something has left minute burrs on the case head, and it is the rim recess in the chamber that causes this final tightness on the lever. The pressure of firing completes the process of flattening out those burrs.

Again, that would be totally harmless. If you do feel the need to move the sized-case shoulder slightly back, you can do it very easily by removing a few thousandths either from the bottom of the sizing die or from the top of the shellholder, with a diamond hone or piecde of abrasive paper glued or double-sided-taped to something flat. The shellholder is the cheap and easily replaced one.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Quite so but being able to head-space on a shoulder means case life will be greatly increased as there will be no headspace clearance (there has to be a clearance on the rim for reliable chambering).

Assuming that there is a rim (and doing without one on the 94 action presents various problems), the situation there remains unchanged. Benchresters (who are able to do without the clearance a hunter or ordinary target shot needs) choose only one method of achieving correct headspace, and almost invariably, for them, it is the shoulder. Having both is OK, but one has to reliably prevent the other from making contact.

[FN in MT]

Suggestion to you guys hanging steel with CHAINS...Find some conveyor belt material. Cut with a razor knife 3" or 4" wide. Buy a hole punch, 9/16", 5/8" work fine. Punch a few holes in your belting. Hang steel with belting by looping over cross piece, or bolt to hanger, whatever. ....Can take MANY off target hits before crapping out. A lot less BS than chains.

[outdoorfan]

Ballistics in Scotland, thanks for the technical expanation and ideas. And thanks to the rest for the chain ideas.

[Geezer in NH]

One of the original wildcats. I was looking for 35 Remington ballistics in a lever gun platform, but I didn't want to have to deal with the scarcity of brass. So, I had my 30-30 rebored by JES for $225. I anneal, then resize the brass in a special die from CH4D. There is still a shoulder there, but not much.

35/30-30 could also be 35/32, but it seems the 30-30 brass and rifle platform is where the conversion usually originates the most often.

Recoil can be stout on the Win 94 platform (20" barrel). I put a pachmyr pad on mine 'cause the steel butt plate was brutal. Even with the decelerator pad, when I shoot it prone for 30+ shots, my shoulder does develop bruising/discoloration.
For the money I would have got Marlin 336 in 35 rem

[outdoorfan]

Sure, probably because you prefer the 336 platform, which is fine. I prefer the 94. Not even close. To each his own.

[rr2241tx]

You could still turn the target over, but would need to grind off the old nut and weld a new one on the opposite face. Had not thought about running the chain through pipe, good idea. Conveyor belting is sort of in short supply around here unless you have an "in" at the mines. They don't encourage visitors. Mine all have holes drilled through prior to hardening. I use Grade 8 bolts and Nylok nuts on the back side. Easy to flip. Never bent one, just have one face matte black and one face traffic orange for light conditions.

[Blackwater]

Hickock hit on why various calibers "burn through" steel targets, and 90% of it is speed. Add in a solid core, like a steel penetrator as in some AP rounds, and you've got metal penetration power that can't be beat. It's not uncommon for some yahoo to get ahold of some AP rounds and go to a range and shoot holes all in the silhouettes. These idjits never seem to have to pay for the damages they've done, and most clubs just boot them out, but those steel silhouettes are kind'a spendy, and they OUGHT to have to pay for the damages.

Speed is why the little .17 penetrated while bigger, "more powerful" stuff didn't. It literally "burns through" as Hickock said.

[Catshooter]

If you weld a heat treated bolt (or nut) aren't you affecting the heat treatment? The only difference in strength between a grade 2 and an 8 is the heat treatment.

At our silhouette range we bolt feet onto the bottom of the critters leg. Grade 8s, with the nut on the back. For some reason the bolt head outlasts the nuts every time. Both are grade 8.

I've always thought that the .35-30 looks like a great round and is very tempting to me. I do have a 94 with a poor bore . . .


Cat

[Whiterabbit]

yes, ALL welding has a Heat Affected Zone. Some HAZ are larger than others with varying weld types...

[JSnover]

We weld nuts to plate all the time in my shop but never Grade 8. Alloy and carbon content leave it brittle after welding.

[paul h]

My buddy had a 1" thick swinger made, not sure what type of steel. Cast with handguns wouldn't do much to it. I asked him if I could try the 458 lott on it ;) 500 gr jacketed hornady soft point clocked 2280 fps 15' from the muzzle, probably hasn't lost much speed at the 50 yd line. I wasn't too surprised that the plate swung back and up with enough force to lift his stand off the ground and dump the plate. But the damage was pretty impressive, the crater was close to 3/4" dia and over 1/2" deep with a healthy dimple on the back side of the plate.

[303Guy]

For the money I would have got Marlin 336 in 35 rem
I like a rimmed cartridge and a long neck. If I could get a barrel I would fit it to a Lee Enfield action. A 35/303 would be very nice but a 35/30-40 would be better although I tend to think the 35 Rem or 35/30 has a better capacity ratio, making a more efficient cartridge and for cast is about right. That's just me.

My Dad hunted with a 35 Remington pump action and took Cape buffalo with it (shot two with one shot once - the second had a broken shoulder so it required a finishing shot). For him it was ideal for the African bush hunting he did. Short and quick.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Hickock hit on why various calibers "burn through" steel targets, and 90% of it is speed. Add in a solid core, like a steel penetrator as in some AP rounds, and you've got metal penetration power that can't be beat. It's not uncommon for some yahoo to get ahold of some AP rounds and go to a range and shoot holes all in the silhouettes. These idjits never seem to have to pay for the damages they've done, and most clubs just boot them out, but those steel silhouettes are kind'a spendy, and they OUGHT to have to pay for the damages.

Speed is why the little .17 penetrated while bigger, "more powerful" stuff didn't. It literally "burns through" as Hickock said.

It doesn't actually burn. If it did there would be iron oxide sprayed about, and there isn't. But it is true that the more the velocity, the less hardness of the bullet material matters. The logical extreme is the hollow charge missile warhead, which squirts a jet of liquefied aluminium or steel though armour which would defeat a larger and faster conventional AP shell.

[outdoorfan]

I was aware that the grade 8 nut is affected by the welding process, but how much I have no idea. Since it is said to be quite brittle after heat treatment I will maybe try grade 5 next time. Or will the be super brittle too?

The other suggestions for mounting I will definitely keep in the back of my mind, but for now I like the userfriendliness of the nut on top of the plate. If I continue to wack it and damage it, then I suspect I will change my mind.

I don't think the mild handgun loads I shoot will cause the nut much trouble. It was the full power 35/30 at under 100 yards.

Thanks for your comments.

[JSnover]

I was aware that the grade 8 nut is affected by the welding process, but how much I have no idea. Since it is said to be quite brittle after heat treatment I will maybe try grade 5 next time. Or will the be super brittle too?
Grade 5 probably would be fine. The main reason we don't weld G8 is it won't be viable as a structural component afterwards. For hanging targets, you probably could use almost anything.
Low carbon is the key. High carbon will send hardness through the roof and turn brittle after it cools.

[outdoorfan]

Ok, thanks for that info.

[WRideout]

I shot thru a silliwet pig target with a factory .17remington. The club was trying to see what caliber/s could do this. Several winchester and Weatherby mags did crater the metal but none went thru. It was hanging at a hundred yards. A couple of larger calibers did spin it off the stand.

Once, when I was doing some informal plinking with a friend, he brought his 7x57 commercial mauser. We had found a piece of steel, maybe 3/16"? The mauser put neat little holes clear through, almost as if it were drilled.
Wayne

[Hickory]

I think it melts the steel.

It doesn't melt the steel, what happens is, no two objects can occupy the same place at the same time.
Lead having the greater mass and in motion will have a better chance of occupying an area of lesser mass whether the lesser mass is moving or not.

[Rich/WIS]

Our club has a 6" plate at 50 yards and a 10" plate at 100 yards. Both are 1/2" AR500 and we use chain bolted with Grade 8 bolts through the hole that come in the plate. They take a beating but have held up well to ARs and magnum rifles. Only issue has been the chains, a lot of damage but have only had to replace one so far. Found that grade 5 bolts will not hold up if hit, got one with a 220 gr 30 cal out of my 06 (about 1500 fps) and it punched the bolt through the plate. The manufacturer says impact velocity is issue, keep below 3000fps. Our plates cost about $85 shipped for both and included a free 3" plate (haven't figured out where to put it yet).

[JSnover]

...we use chain bolted with Grade 8 bolts through the hole that come in the plate.
That's the best way. No welds to break.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It doesn't melt the steel, what happens is, no two objects can occupy the same place at the same time.
Lead having the greater mass and in motion will have a better chance of occupying an area of lesser mass whether the lesser mass is moving or not.

It doesn't melt. If we catch the results in a piece of wood they will be torn, not globules. But I think the metal is weakened by heat. I have known WW2 tank crewmen who spoke of red-hot spots appearing on the inside of the armour, a moment after it had successfully defeated a shell. It was created from kinetic energy in just the same way as you break a piece of wire by repeated bending, only there wasn't time for it to be dissipated in the moment of impact.

Even much lesser degrees of heat do weaken metals, and engineers have figures for it. An example is the tendency for overstressed bullet jackets to break up in flight, when the figures for centrifugal force and tensile strength at room temperatures don't add up to that.

If the sheet is thin enough to get significantly hot all or most of the way through, it will make a great difference to the ease of penetration.