Spent caps problem

[gnoahhh]

Having messed with C&B revolvers off and on for the last 30 years or so, I finally encountered a bugabear that I'll bet some of you have too. Previous revolvers ('51 Navys and .44 Remingtons) would occasionally drop the remains of a spent cap back into the path of the hammer, interrupting the next shot. It was something one put up with from time to time. Now, with getting a new '62 Colt Police up and running, I'm finding that darn near every single splattered cap ends up back in the trough where it deadens the fall of the hammer. What a PIA it is to clear the dead cap before almost every shot.

I wonder- is it due to current production caps, or is it the design of the pistol? Back in the day, I always used old Remington #10s, and rarely had a problem. Now, I have a tin of new Remington #10s (which I felt fortunate in finding as they fit my nipples perfectly) and curse every time I pull the trigger (although ignition and accuracy is superb). Is there a solution? Different caps? Modification of the gun (and if so, what)? Or do I need to sell the thing and get a differently designed gun?

Color me frustrated.

[fryboy]

it in part could be the way the hammer strikes the cap , or deflection of , are the nipples properly gauged with an air gap ?
if you've ever seen where one always raises the gun to cock it this IMHO is part of the reason why ( to keep the caps from fouling the action )

[docone31]

It is the notch slot in the hammer where the cap is hit. Fill it with JB, or like I did, drill and tap for threaded brass rod.
Problem solved. I used a brass machine screw to thread into the cap slot.

[Texantothecore]

Cci caps may solve that issue. I highly recommend that you replace your nipples with treso 11s and go with #11 cci caps. I have not been able to get Remington #10 caps to work as they seem to tear much more than 11s and it was on virtually every shot. The treso nipples plus cci caps have solved the problem.

[gnoahhh]

Thanks for the tips. Both sound viable. I think I'll try the re-nippling approach first. (Although that never seemed to work out when changing girlfriends...!)

[Mr Peabody]

New Pietta nipples helped a lot in my '61 navy Pietta. The brand of cap didn't matter much.

[gnoahhh]

Thanks, Mr. Peabody. Sherman here, over and out!

[Col4570]

with the colt navy,caps often fall into the mechanism.I took to tipping the Navy sideways when I cocked for the next shot.

[Omnivore]

I had exactly the same problem with my '62 Police. While the hammer safety slot on Army and Navy models may actually "suck the cap" upon cocking, dragging the cap off to fall into the hammer cutout in the frame, the little Police model has an additional problem.

The low mass of the smaller hammer is easily blown back by the chamber pressure leaking through the nipple. The result (correct me if I'm wrong) is that after taking a shot AND BEFORE COCKING for the next shot, the hammer will already be resting on a spent cap that has fallen into the frame channel.

So the hammer is not "sucking" the cap upon cocking, due to the safety notch in the hammer nose. Rather, the hammer is being blown back, else the cap COULD NOT be down in the hammer channel with the hammer resting on it PRIOR to re-cocking for the next shot as was happeneing in my gun.

The suggestion to replace the nipples is a good one. Get the proper Treso nipples. They have a significantly smaller flash hole, and just that modification alone has diminished the frequency of that particular cap jam to a small fraction. It still happens sometimes though. I'm using a pretty stiff load, using a conical bullet also, so a reduced load with round ball will significantly reduce the blow-back issue.

I'm not convinced that filling in the hammer notch will prevent the whole hammer being blown back by gas pressure, which is a particular problem with the Police model.

Look up the "cap rake" modification. It involves installing a small, vertical pin in the frame, just behind the capped nipple, such that the cap is blocked from coming back into the hammer channel in the frame, regardless of the cause ("sucking" or blowing).

And so yes; part of the problem is inherent in the Colt open-top design, but the little Police model presents more of a problem. The Remingtons have vastly fewer cap handling problems because the opening in the frame for the hammer is narrower than the cap.

[Omnivore]

Here is an explanation of the "cap rake" modification, in video form;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLIGg3pcPWcaLm2YWlzLjtU-D-P74N667d&v=GwrM7TE9eJI

In the smaller Police model, things are tighter in the smaller space, but this is probably the best option and I plan to do it eventually. The pin is installed in the frame, and the hammer safety notch is deepened a little bit to accommodate the pin. That's it. Experimenting with different caps may also be required, so as to find the most reliable combination. I've been using Remington #10 caps on my Remingtons and they work extremely well with Treso nipples, but in the Colt Police their exploded "petals" have a tendency to get caught between the back of the cylinder and the frame also, and then I have to grab them and pull them free.

[Hellgate]

The wider the safety notch in the hammer the more caps that will get wedged in it and be pulled off the nipple. A new nipple like Treso or TOW's SS replacement nipples or the Slix-Shot nipple will dramatically reduce back thrust on the hammer but also fill in the notch and doing those two things you'll eliminate 90% of the jams you are getting.

[gnoahhh]

I knew I could depend on y'all for sage advise. Thank you very much!

[Texantothecore]

I had thought to fill in the notch but decided to not do so because I always use the notch as a safety. The Remington 10s would sometimes get stuck in the notch but not ccis. I think are quite a bit harder than the Remingtons.

The problem is not the hammer notch but the caps being too soft.

Last Friday I had my first misfire in 600 rounds. The treso cci combination gives me an extremely reliable gun, more so than any of my modern semiautomatics.

The problem was a nipple that had worn down and after putting in a new one it worked perfectly.

[Hellgate]

TX to the core,
You can fill the notch with JB Weld, let it start to set up to where it is about like modeling clay then put some oil on the surface and set the hammer down onto one of the safety pins to create and impression of the pin and then let it harden up the rest of the way. That way you have the gap filled but still a useable rest on the pins for safer carrying. I only load 5 in my guns when in the field and set the hammer down on an unloaded chamber.

[bedbugbilly]

Are you doing the "Colt Twist" when you cock your hammer? May not be the solution to your cap problem but if you twist your wrist to the right when cocking, it can help keep cap fragments out of the hammer channel. Too often, folks have a tendency to cock their C & B revolvers like they do their modern cartridge handguns. I watched a fellow shoot two handed not to long ago . . . right handed, cocked with this left thumb and the pistol stayed vertical each time . . . which of course added to the cap fragments falling in to the hammer channel. Nothing wrong if a person wants to shoot two handed . . . but the Colts were made to shoot one handed and people soon learned . . . even "way back then" . . . that a twist of the wrist to the right when thumb cocking helps. I've been shooting C & B revolver for 50 some years and that little trick was taught to be my the 80 some year old gunsmith who taught me . . . if he were still around, he'd be somewhere between 130 and 140 years old today. And his were originals . . . .

[Omnivore]

BedBug; You're right about all that, but the little 1862 Colt Police (which is the subject of the thread - the '62 Navy uses the same frame and hammer) has its own problem. Being built on the previous Pocket model, 31 caliber frame, the 36 caliber Police has more blow-back than the lightweight hammer can contain, so the hammer is blown back with the cap, often leaving the cap already down in the frame with the hammer resting on it. That's BEFORE the hammer is cocked for the next shot, the "jam" is already there, and more often than not the cap is lodged in there (by hammer spring pressure) such that a wrist flick will not dislodge it. You then have to whip out your pocket knife or some such, to flick the cap out. It's not fun at all. Installing nipples with smaller flash holes made a big difference in my Uberti '62, but other measures are called-for as a complete fix.

I like the idea of using epoxy and leaving just a small pin-hole in the hammer nose rather than the larger slot, but I have my doubts as to whether it would substantially solve the problem with the 1862 Colts. It would certainly be very easy to try, and it can't hurt. The hammer would surely get blown back as much as ever, and so the question is whether the cap would continue to ride back with the hammer and then drop into the frame underneith.

Correct me if i'm wrong, please, but I haven't seen anyone yet say thay've solved this problem peculiar to the little 1862 models solely by filling in the hammer. Lots have suggested it, but so far I've seen claims of success only with regard to the larger frame Colts. The cap rake, on the other hand, should work regardless.

I'll try the epoxy because it is easy and comes with no costs, but I don't expect complete success unless someone can come on here and say it worked for their 1862 Colt. At this juncture I expect to have to install the cap rake, and I suppose that once that is done, the new nipples may not be necessary (though I already have installed them).

[SirMike1983]

BedBug; You're right about all that, but the little 1862 Colt Police (which is the subject of the thread - the '62 Navy uses the same frame and hammer) has its own problem. Being built on the previous Pocket model, 31 caliber frame, the 36 caliber Police has more blow-back than the lightweight hammer can contain, so the hammer is blown back with the cap, often leaving the cap already down in the frame with the hammer resting on it. That's BEFORE the hammer is cocked for the next shot, the "jam" is already there, and more often than not the cap is lodged in there (by hammer spring pressure) such that a wrist flick will not dislodge it. You then have to whip out your pocket knife or some such, to flick the cap out. It's not fun at all. Installing nipples with smaller flash holes made a big difference in my Uberti '62, but other measures are called-for as a complete fix.

I like the idea of using epoxy and leaving just a small pin-hole in the hammer nose rather than the larger slot, but I have my doubts as to whether it would substantially solve the problem with the 1862 Colts. It would certainly be very easy to try, and it can't hurt. The hammer would surely get blown back as much as ever, and so the question is whether the cap would continue to ride back with the hammer and then drop into the frame underneith.

Correct me if i'm wrong, please, but I haven't seen anyone yet say thay've solved this problem peculiar to the little 1862 models solely by filling in the hammer. Lots have suggested it, but so far I've seen claims of success only with regard to the larger frame Colts. The cap rake, on the other hand, should work regardless.

I'll try the epoxy because it is easy and comes with no costs, but I don't expect complete success unless someone can come on here and say it worked for their 1862 Colt. At this juncture I expect to have to install the cap rake, and I suppose that once that is done, the new nipples may not be necessary (though I already have installed them).


Old topic, but I am having the same experience with my Police. Did you install the cap rake? I don't see much meat on the frame where the pin would go on my Uberti Police frame.

[bedbugbilly]

col4570 gives good advice. I have been shooting '51 Navies for 50 some years and I was taught to do the "Colt twist" many years ago when cocking a C & B revolver. Most shooters today go from shooting modern revolvers (even a SAA) where all that's necessary is to reach up and thumb cock the revolver. But, C & B revolvers are not modern "cartridge" revolvers. The "Colt twist" will usually take care of it when it comes to fragments - not always but believe me, even years ago when in the day of the originals and our ancestors using them, they put up with cap fragments as well.

[SirMike1983]

col4570 gives good advice. I have been shooting '51 Navies for 50 some years and I was taught to do the "Colt twist" many years ago when cocking a C & B revolver. Most shooters today go from shooting modern revolvers (even a SAA) where all that's necessary is to reach up and thumb cock the revolver. But, C & B revolvers are not modern "cartridge" revolvers. The "Colt twist" will usually take care of it when it comes to fragments - not always but believe me, even years ago when in the day of the originals and our ancestors using them, they put up with cap fragments as well.

That works well on my 51 Navy. I have what Omnivore was describing that is unique to the small Civil War era models - that the hammer and cap blow back instantly and jam without ever pulling on the hammer. I am trying Track stainless nipples, de-burred hammer, and lighter charges. I was considering drilling vent holes on the nipples like Slix Shot would have, or installing a cap rake.

[Johnny_Cyclone]

A cure for cap sucking C&B revolvers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4gkJaIQPZo

looks simple enough to try first

[SirMike1983]

A cure for cap sucking C&B revolvers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4gkJaIQPZo

looks simple enough to try first


That's a good video - I did see it. I am subscribed to Mike's channel. It has become a major source of insight into reproduction cap and ball revolvers. I did the de-burr using a small dremel tool. We'll see how it turns out. I did the hammer face and took all the sharp edges out of the notch in the hammer. The 1862 is an interesting little gun, but if I had it to do again I'd get an 1860 Army probably. They were both on sale and the '62 was something a little different from what everyone else had. The '51 Navy is my favorite still. Range day tomorrow maybe...

[SirMike1983]

That's a good video - I did see it. I am subscribed to Mike's channel. It has become a major source of insight into reproduction cap and ball revolvers. I did the de-burr using a small dremel tool. We'll see how it turns out. I did the hammer face and took all the sharp edges out of the notch in the hammer. The 1862 is an interesting little gun, but if I had it to do again I'd get an 1860 Army probably. They were both on sale and the '62 was something a little different from what everyone else had. The '51 Navy is my favorite still. Range day tomorrow maybe...

The work pretty much did away with the hammer pulling caps. The only jams I get now are the "blow back" ones with 10 gr of FFF. It happens maybe 50% of the time. I think a bit stronger main spring on the hammer would fix it and then the revolver would be good. I now have to find a slightly stronger main spring to eliminate the blow back hammer issue.

[45 Dragoon]

A cap post (rake) will solve the problem. Ever seen a CASS comp. shooter do the "Colt Twist"? The number one request from customers is a cap post. The reason is, it works. In competition, it works. In casual shooting, it works. In target shooting, it works. One of the main reasons a cap gun can be set up to fan is the installation of a cap post.A stronger mainspring makes the revolver harder to " handle ", causes undue wear to the action parts, will damage the nipples quickly (if there is contact).


The installation of a cap post doesn't call for making the safety slot any wider (they are already too wide which is half the problem). They are fitted to the existing hammer face. They are stainless steel and are screwed in and held with red thread locker. The original hammers had a slot just wide enough for the safety pins. The caps were of different (better?) construction. This is a "more modern" fix for a "more modern" problem and why just addressing the slot itself only moderately solves the problem. I don't see how today's fragmenting caps can stay out of the action without interference (the cap post) no matter what a person does to the hammer face alone.


Mike

[Hellgate]

I remember the old Italian caps were brass cupped and thicker. When they split it was one or two fissures. They were more sturdy and less deformed. My guess is the 150 year old caps may have been far less prone to wedge into the safety notch. The modern caps often cloverleaf when they pop and the thin copper foil gets stuck into the hammer notch from the back blast pressure. Upon firing the old Italian caps pretty much remain a cup without the impression of the hammer notch.

[SirMike1983]

I remember the old Italian caps were brass cupped and thicker. When they split it was one or two fissures. They were more sturdy and less deformed. My guess is the 150 year old caps may have been far less prone to wedge into the safety notch. The modern caps often cloverleaf when they pop and the thin copper foil gets stuck into the hammer notch from the back blast pressure. Upon firing the old Italian caps pretty much remain a cup without the impression of the hammer notch.

I'd believe it. They seem to just break up, but I guess the reduced metal thickness allows it to go off easier and save money on metal in production.

I put a heavier main spring in the Police and shot it again today. It's really starting to get there. I had maybe 1-2 drop into the hammer channel every 10 shots, which is way better than it was. I'm considering my options at this point, including putting a 1/32 vent hole in the nipple sides in the style of Slix Shot nipples. But I'm glad to say it's coming along and it's getting much more fun to shoot now. The Navy still shoots rings around it at 25 yards though - those Police sights are tiny.

[45 Dragoon]

I just sent (last week) a '62 to its owner and he promptly sent a video of him shooting it. He can fan it if he wants to with no problems. It has just a 4 lb.hammer draw. Heavy mainsprings just wear your thumbs out, mask other problems and make you force action parts together after lockup (unless you install an action stop) which causes early parts failure. Holy nipples reduce power and make for dirty cap guns (if it ain't going out the barrel, it ain't helping!!)

Mike