Revolver vs rifle challenge

[apen]

I'm looking for a way to raise money for the cast boolit site. I've been around here long enough to know that a revolver is just as good as a rifle at long range......just a fact.....all you have to do is read on here.
I'm willing to sacrifice myself and offer a challenge to anyone shooting a revolver. The challenge is that I can, with my rifle, beat any revolver shooter shooting 5-5 shot groups at 500 M. If I win, Ill pay 100.00 to the site. If I loose, I'll pay 1000.00 to the site. The revolver shooter isn't obligated to pay anything. It's a win win for the site. I just need suggestions on how to set it up and assign some sort of accountability. Any suggestions on how to make this happen are appreciated.

[M-Tecs]

To be fair it would have to be under the same conditions. Unless it is a true zero wind the high BC of the rifle will give the rifle a significant advantage. I have one DW I would bet on 3" five shot groups at a 100 yards with low winds. Depending on the bullet the revolver will need 2 to 3 times lower SD's to hold the same elevation. My 1,000 yard long range match rifles will do 1/4" at a 100 yards for 5 shots. I have shot some 2" 10 shot groups with them at 600 yards but 3" to 5" is more realistic for me. With switching winds 6 to 8 can be a problem.

[apen]

It's not a postal match I was thinking of. Same line ...same day. I'm willing to travel 500 miles of 30350.


I would be shooting the lowly .308

[M-Tecs]

Like you I am willing to put money behind my claims. I have done it in the past. I have never lost on money but I lost to a lady friend. We were betting "favors". She was not a shooter so I showed her bench techniques. I always had her shoot first so I sandbagged and just shot slightly better. When it came to the bet I spotted her 3/4". She shot a 5/8" group so I lost without firing a shot.

My dad was with us. He didn't know what the bet was for but he laughed until he just about fell out of his chair.

[Lonegun1894]

Sounds like one of those bets where even if you technically "lost", you still won! :)

[Love Life]

I'm in Georgia. I can witness, bring chrony, and camera equipment. I also have paper and steel targets. I too am willing to travel. I proposed a similar challenge to people before on my FB page as I got tired of hearing about all these world record groups being shot (all day long if'n I do my part!" The challenge I proposed was to bring $1,000 cash to a range. Shoot 10, 10 shot groups in a row with plenty of time in between for barrel cool. Every group they shot 1/4 MOA or under, I give them $100. Every group they shot over 1/4 MOA they gave me $100. No takers. I'm not saying I can do it, but I know I'm not shooting 1/4 MOA at 500 yds off my truck hood either.

[44man]

It would be fun but things would have to be done to the revolver. I no long belong to the club where I could shoot 500 meters but to hit steel I had to aim my red dot 26 to 30' at a tree branch over the steel. A tapered base would need made so the target could be aimed at so the taper needs right to account for 30'. To have to aim up in the sky would not be fair. No way to use adjustments alone.
To make things more even, if I had my 45-70 BFR you should use a 45-70 rifle. True I have out shot many sporting rifles but I would not go against a BR quality rifle. I have owned too many rifles that I could head shoot wood chucks past 600 yards. Beer cans at 500 were duck soup with my Mark V 300 Weatherby.
The advantage will always go to the rifle.

[contender1]

An interesting concept.
May I suggest some things to make it a bit more "fair?
Both shooters use the same caliber. Both use open sights. Both shoot at 200 yds. Both shoot any style except off a bench. (Prone, sitting, kneeling, etc.) Both use production type guns,,, nothing built as special purpose. And, lastly, use targets that have no reference point like a bullseye. Just plain 18"x18" cardboard.

Something like a 44 mag or 45 Colt leveraction rifle against a Ruger SA in the matching caliber.

I offer these SUGGESTIONS as a way of actually having this happen & see the results. Many of us who do shoot handguns beyond the 10, 15, & gasp,,, the 25 yd mark have found out a handgun is quite capable of things many find hard to believe. But,,, we are also realists. Competing against a rifle caliber such as the 308, with a 44 mag or a 45 Colt is not a fair comparison.

Just my thoughts on this.

[jmorris]

I've been around here long enough to know that a revolver is just as good as a rifle at long range......just a fact.....all you have to do is read on here.

I guess I need links I have never seen any revolver threads at benchrest central.

[Love Life]

I guess I need links I have never seen any revolver threads at benchrest central.

The statements abound on here...

When the challenge is thrown, conditions get added to level the field.

There is no doubt in my mind that some revolvers and shooters can do great things with the platform. IHMSA records and matches have proven that revolvers can do great things.

[44man]

I did forget another condition. Anyone that takes the challenge would most likely use cast in the revolver so what say cast in a .308?
This IS the CB site!

[44MAG#1]

This is good comedy relief. This needs to be on TV. Should figure a way to post it on YouTube. Would get probably a million hits.

[ole 5 hole group]

One has to be a little careful here, as most of us think of a revolver being a conventional revolver like a Ruger, Sweat & Miss'em, BFR etc - and at 500 meters I seriously doubt any internet keyboard shooter will step up using those firearms - BUT - some of these short barreled rifles called revolvers can sure mess things up, as some of those boys can raise hell at 500 meters and there's a few IHMSA shooters who can do pretty well out there as well but I seriously doubt any current IHMSA are posting here in a manner that aspen is probably referring to.;)

One thing about 500 meters and beyond - every shot has to be about perfect for all 5-shots to play well together and to put 5 strings of 5-shots together in one day - that says a lot about the firearm, load and the jerk behind the trigger. This thread will get interesting.

[runfiverun]

cast would somewhat even the playing field.
the advantage still goes to the rifle.

anyone in this area has access to a 800-1,000 yd shooting range anytime they want it.
the back round can be altered 6-7 different way's by moving to a different place within an hours drive.
and you can even play hit that rock all they way up to 500 yds without ever moving your feet if you want.

[Love Life]

some of these short barreled rifles called revolvers


The Franken-Rugers look awesome!

[jmorris]

There is no doubt in my mind that some revolvers and shooters can do great things with the platform. IHMSA records and matches have proven that revolvers can do great things.

I understand my XP-100 beats out my revolvers though and many production rifles as well. Wouldn't bet $100 on it against a benchrest rifle though, for 5-5 @500m.

I have a few I would race him for first to fire 25 rounds though.

[merlin101]

I'm in Georgia. I can witness, bring chrony, and camera equipment. I also have paper and steel targets. I too am willing to travel. I proposed a similar challenge to people before on my FB page as I got tired of hearing about all these world record groups being shot (all day long if'n I do my part!" The challenge I proposed was to bring $1,000 cash to a range. Shoot 10, 10 shot groups in a row with plenty of time in between for barrel cool. Every group they shot 1/4 MOA or under, I give them $100. Every group they shot over 1/4 MOA they gave me $100. No takers. I'm not saying I can do it, but I know I'm not shooting 1/4 MOA at 500 yds off my truck hood either.
That sounds like fun, we'd have to lower the dollar amount thou I just wouldn't feel right taking you money[smilie=1:

Really I think I'll suggest something like this with a couple of shooting buds.

[Love Life]

Sometimes losing money is fun!!

[44MAG#1]

Where are all these hotshot handgun shooters that appear they are as thick as fleas on here?
If anyone thinks that people can hold these extremely tight groups offhand needs a reality check.
Think I am wrong??? Go to a,local indoor range and watch most shooters at 10 or 15 yards shooting their favorite "one ragged holer" revolver.
Go to the local outdoor range and ask the local hotshot revolver shooter to shoot an offhand group at 100 yards with irons or optical sights. See what he/she produces. Every one has a lucky day. I have them too. Offhand at 100 yards I can stay close to 8.5 to 9 inches with a 4.2" RedHawk in 45 Colt most of the time with heavy bullets and loads. Sometimes the first 3 will be much, much, much smaller but the other 3 will open the group. That is where I should stop after the first tight low count number group, take a photo and throw my junk back into the vehicle and run home and post the photo on here. I could ignore my other groups that are bigger and more representing of what I can actually do.
If one cannot do what they do on a very consistent basis that that IS NOT what you can do. It is only what you can OCCASIONALLY do. Nothing counts unless you can do it on a very consistent basis. The other is just salving ones enormous ego.
This is with me shooting at 63 years of age, and not much practice anymore.
Oh well.

[docone31]

Hehehe, I am happy after all these years, If I can get them all in the black. I practice at 50yds, and most make a 10" group. If I get a bunch close to center, I am happy with that.
I shot IHMSA for years and I was happy with 5s each course. Not bad for a revolver and XP.

[gtgeorge]

I have been known to shoot deer at 100 with a 4" .357 offhand and take it home. I do not feel I am that good of a shot and with SA revolvers I seem to suck. I would never dream of taking on the worst rifle shooter at long range even just as a no $ on the line deal. I am lucky.....but not that lucky!

I am looking forward to see who steps up for even a handicap challenge for this bet.

[Love Life]

There were no handicaps in the boasts, so why should there be handicaps on the guns in the bet?

[M-Tecs]

There were no handicaps in the boasts, so why should there be handicaps on the guns in the bet?

You are 100% correct on that. These boasts come up frequently and as I have posted in the past they best the current CBA records by a wide margin?????

[Love Life]

You are 100% correct on that. These boasts come up frequently and as I have posted in the past they best the current CBA records by a wide margin?????

I have seen the same boasts. I've also seen your 50 yard challenge with Ben Franklins stapled to the backer. I believe you got as many takers as this thread will.

[NSB]

I've shot handguns for over forty years. I've owned some of the very best custom built handguns money can buy, built by the best pistolsmiths on the planet. On top of that, I've won many state titles, placed highly at the IHMSA International shoot in revolver categoy, and set a shoot off record that to my knowledge has never been beat. I also shot for a major powder company for several years and did very well at that. All that being said, no handgun shooter is going to beat an equally talented and equipped rifle shooter at long range. Anything can, and is, said on the internet. The best groups and feats of marksmanship have been performed on the keyboard, not at the range. I've had some people boast to me at the range about the wonderful things that they can do shooting and every time I ever called them on it on a bet, they "couldn't make it" at any date or time. Reality needs to step in somewhere. There is no way a handgun is going to outshoot a rifle. If it's a custom built one of a kind handgun shooting against a custom built rifle, the rifle will still win every time. I've owned handguns that were remarkably accurate. Almost to the point of having to see to believe. However, they still didn't shoot as well as a well built rifle. How could they? I'll be amazed if any contest actually takes place in reaction to the OP's challenge. If it happens, I'll drive a long ways to see it happen.

[BCgunworks]

Even with our highly customized franken Rugers....I know a good rifle or xp100 with a skilled shooter will still outshoot them. Many rifles can do 1/4-1/2 Moa. We're in the 3/4-1 Moa area....so even with everything else perfect....it's just not feasible. And wind will crush the lowly wheel gun at distance...many of you may have seen the video from me shooting pdogs to almost 400'yards with a wheel gun....none of those long shots were one shot connections..

but yes I have seen many of these claims that revolvers..especially BFR revolvers being as accurate as rifles....

[Cornbread]

500 meters with a revolver? Someone actually claimed they could out shoot a rifle at that distance? I'd like a link to that post or posts so I can go read them and have a good laugh. I think your money is pretty safe. I've never met anyone who could shoot that kind of distance with a handgun with that kind of accuracy. I'm pleased as punch if I can keep my 100 yard groups under 2" with my handguns but I'd be upset if I shot that same group with a rifle.

[BCgunworks]

500 meters with a revolver? Someone actually claimed they could out shoot a rifle at that distance? I'd like a link to that post or posts so I can go read them and have a good laugh. I think your money is pretty safe. I've never met anyone who could shoot that kind of distance with a handgun with that kind of accuracy. I'm pleased as punch if I can keep my 100 yard groups under 2" with my handguns but I'd be upset if I shot that same group with a rifle.
There are several threads on here....anywhere that accuracy comes up...a BFR with its short stiff barrel will out shoot a rifle....you can find this statement over and over again....

[ErnieBishop]

Interesting thread:D:lol:

[Lonegun1894]

With a rest and no wind, I can usually keep a 5-6" group at 100yds with my Ruger .357, and keep most of my shots in the chest of a B-27 target at 200 yds. BUT, the kind of shooting y'all are talking about, well, not with me behind the trigger of a iron sighted wheel gun, or even my Contender with a scope on it. I can shoot well enough to hunt, but nothing even close to benchrest-type accuracy.

[ErnieBishop]

This is my response to these kind of claims...Original poster's statements are in bold and italics.

My point is that no one is better than everybody on every day.
Second, your BFR's may not be set up to shoot as far as as another gun may be.
Third, you never qualified what type of gun, you just said "ANY GUN". I am pretty sure I know what you meant, but that is NOT what you said:mrgreen:
I have a # of "handguns" (Forget the ANY guns) that would embarrass your BFR's at any distance (not to mention distances a lot further than you have hit targets at) from about any shooting position.
I know you are a good shooter.
My encouragement is that you consider your words when you type.
I consider myself a good shooter, but I get out shot by different people, and by different guns that are not my own at times.
A goal I am tinkering around with right now is a 3000-3000+ yard connection this summer with a specialty pistol.
Plus, I am considering a 700-750 yard goal with my Franken-Ruger. A Group, not just hitting the target.
I am NOT anti-BFR, but stacking up well made custom handguns against a BFR, may not always come out with the BFR winning.
I understand precision reloading and how important that it is, but when we start talking distance in all kinds of conditions, the nut behind the trigger is very important as well.
Precision shooting is a systems approach.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by 44man http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3400883#post3400883)

I will take a BFR and whip the daylights out of any gun as far as you want to shoot.

I do not joke. it really comes down to the gun and the loads.
But BC might make the gun fit better. I consider him a master with what he does.
I can put you behind my revolver with a 1" target at 100 yards and you will hit it. You Can out shoot me if your eyes are better. I get out shot a lot but it is with my guns and loads. When they go home and load, they can't do it.
So even with poor loads in BC's guns. The guns are not better, it is what you feed them.
Does the free float work? I can't go there yet. Maybe it is from better gunsmithing and loading.
No test has been done with BC's barrel without the free float shroud compared with it. Remove the shroud and show it is better.








500 meters with a revolver? Someone actually claimed they could out shoot a rifle at that distance? I'd like a link to that post or posts so I can go read them and have a good laugh. I think your money is pretty safe. I've never met anyone who could shoot that kind of distance with a handgun with that kind of accuracy. I'm pleased as punch if I can keep my 100 yard groups under 2" with my handguns but I'd be upset if I shot that same group with a rifle.

[Cornbread]

Ah that explains why I have not seen those posts. I have some folks that peg my BS meter or who post info so wrong it can be dangerous set to ignore so I won't ever see those posts. I'm not missing much apparently. LOL! You gotta love the internet, a revolver that can out shoot any gun at any range? I guess I must have defective BFRs because mine are really accurate for handguns but not out shoot any gun at any range level of accuracy.

[JHeath]

Handgun barrels are shorter and stiffer than rifle barrels. So their intrinsic accuracy is better. I am certain I can win this contest with my line-bored .488 revolver.

Wait, I will be shooting at 500 *handgun* yards, correct? And you are shooting rifle yards.

Just want to make sure.

[jmorris]

I will take a BFR and whip the daylights out of any gun as far as you want to shoot.


I would have just asked for a link to the world records he has achieved with it.

[44man]

I did say any gun but did not mention a rifle. I have also said the rifle has the advantage. Then single shots were brought up and having owned many and still have some, I would not go against them either.
I shot pennies at 100 yards every shot with my TC, 10" 30-30 with a scope. My MOA in 7BR, 10", has put 5 shots in less then 3/8" at 100. I have sub 1" groups at 200 meters with it and my Wichita 7R. My XP100 would run with most BR guns.
I have out shot many rifles, even my own. If I still had the TC 30-30, I would put it up against any 30-30 rifle. I would be foolish with a revolver but I would go against any other revolver.
Then I would win with my SBH against a Marlin .44 all day long.
Maybe I out shot so many rifles because I out shot the guy behind the butt. I know anyone that comes here to sight in a deer rifle will not out shoot my revolvers at 100 or 200. They sure would not out shoot a single shot pistol.
The BFR! I have shot about every revolver made from the most expensive customs, most expensive factory and everything below and not a one has matched them. Some got close is all.
Linebaugh and Huntington guns were the closest.
Let me show you a very expensive one. Factory .454's on the left, 50 yards. Benched. I worked on the gun and loaded some of his brass with a PB cast and shot the right target.151567 Spending more sometimes fails.

[44MAG#1]

This is getting goofy. While I have had run ins with 44man in the past I now accept him as a valued part of the shooting world.
While I don't agree with him always I understand him. He is like a a one person cheerleader, car sales man, if you will of the revolver that,occasionally, gets over wound like a rubber band twisted too much. And in the process looses sight of the fact that good revolver shooters don't abound around every corner regardless of the loading technique or the gun loaded for. Fact is most handgun shooters puke when the distance goes beyond 25 yards and maybe 50 for most. Again regardless of loading technique especially when the recoil get ill tempered.
We know no one is going to challenge a rifle unless it is in good hearted fun only. Especially if much money is on the line. Only an idiot would do that. Just one hitch in the get along with the revolver shooter and he would be toast.
Lets leave 44man alone. He is like most. In his own little world. Me included.

[Love Life]

I laughed, I cried, I went and shot some world records, and then I went and played Alpha Wars.

[ErnieBishop]

:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

[Love Life]

ErnieBishop- I may be misremembering, but did you have some firearms built by Macs Gunworks? I have one of his rifle actions I've been pondering on.

[ErnieBishop]

Yes.
Chuck has built several rigs for me.
Both rifle and specialty pistol

[BCgunworks]

Everyone needs some once in a while. 151581

[Markbo]

What difference does any of this make. The OP said he would do it JUST to donate funds to the site. Some of you hotshots that live anywhere near GA should take him up on it JUST to get the donations made! Who cares if he outshoots you? Nobody expects anyone that shows up with a revolver to win this contest.

[44MAG#1]

Since the OP knows unless he locks up and keels over he is going to win. So, why not just go ahead and give up the hundred bucks and then be quite about it.

[mozeppa]

i once shot a flea off a sleeping dog at 4000 yards with a open sight 22 hi-standard pistol.

twice.













never woke the dog.





yup.

[mozeppa]

with a mirror.

[bedbugbilly]

The last time I got in to a betting shooting match, the guy I was going to shoot against and I finally decided on what the target would be and the distance . . . we decided it would be the "broad side of a barn" at fifty paces . . we both lost which doesn't say a whole lot for either of us. Prize was a cup of coffee . . . . we ended up going to the coffee shop and we went "Dutch". :-)

[ErnieBishop]

Apen,
I appreciate your willingness to help this site and I appreciate your sense of humor.
This thread has brought both smiles and laughs my way.

I have never been one to say, "Any gun and any distance."
Now, if it was one of my Specialty Pistol's against your 308 at 500 yards or meters, that would be a fun challenge for an ice cream cone or a coke.


I'm looking for a way to raise money for the cast boolit site. I've been around here long enough to know that a revolver is just as good as a rifle at long range......just a fact.....all you have to do is read on here.
I'm willing to sacrifice myself and offer a challenge to anyone shooting a revolver. The challenge is that I can, with my rifle, beat any revolver shooter shooting 5-5 shot groups at 500 M. If I win, Ill pay 100.00 to the site. If I loose, I'll pay 1000.00 to the site. The revolver shooter isn't obligated to pay anything. It's a win win for the site. I just need suggestions on how to set it up and assign some sort of accountability. Any suggestions on how to make this happen are appreciated.

[44man]

Ha, should have seen me shoot the other day. Friend came to sight in and brought a big bag of water jugs. I set a bunch at 100 and with my .500 JRH, I was able to center all but one, a little left when the dot fuzzed out. But at 50 I tried off hand and was painting a 2' mess with the dot.
Need bags more then ever. I now have a paint mixer in my hand.

[Love Life]

Apen,
I appreciate your willingness to help this site and I appreciate your sense of humor.
This thread has brought both smiles and laughs my way.

I have never been one to say, "Any gun and any distance."
Now, if it was one of my Specialty Pistol's against your 308 at 500 yards or meters, that would be a fun challenge for an ice cream cone or a coke.

That would be a fun challenge!

[paul h]

Since the OP knows unless he locks up and keels over he is going to win. So, why not just go ahead and give up the hundred bucks and then be quite about it.

Because the guy making the BS quotes about what he can do with a revolver is the one who should be quiet.

[BCgunworks]

Because the guy making the BS quotes about what he can do with a revolver is the one who should be quiet.
[smilie=w:

[apen]

I got tired of hearing about all these world record groups being shot


It gets really tiring. When I started shooting a rifle for something more than fun, I was devastated when I could not shoot 1/4 minute groups at 100. Here I am... just spent all that money for a rebarrel, and I could not do what everybody else was doing....EVERYBODY else was doing it...they said they were. I wasted a lot of time.





Many of us who do shoot handguns beyond the 10, 15, & gasp,,, the 25 yd mark have found out a handgun is quite capable of things many find hard to believe. But,,, we are also realists


Not everyone is a realist, which is why this got started.



I guess I need links I have never seen any revolver threads at benchrest central.


Strange indeed.



I did forget another condition. Anyone that takes the challenge would most likely use cast in the revolver so what say cast in a .308?
This IS the CB site!


You aren’t in a position to make a condition unless you are stepping up. You have said cast boolits trumps jacketed in your wheel guns.



One has to be a little careful here, as most of us think of a revolver being a conventional revolver like a Ruger, Sweat & Miss'em, BFR etc - and at 500 meters I seriously doubt any internet keyboard shooter will step up using those firearms - BUT


I value your posts probably more than any here, but I'll be fine. The people who have those types of revolvers seem more ground to planet earth.





500 meters with a revolver? Someone actually claimed they could out shoot a rifle at that distance?


Said it more than a few times





What difference does any of this make. The OP said he would do it JUST to donate funds to the site. Some of you hotshots
that live anywhere near GA should take him up on it JUST to get the donations made! Who cares if he outshoots you? Nobody expects anyone that shows up with a revolver to win this contest.
The expectation was that the challenger would challenge the claim with sincerity. What you are suggesting is that anyone show up just to “make” me pay. That’s about as classless as it gets.











Since the OP knows unless he locks up and keels over he is going to win. So, why not just go ahead and give up the hundred bucks and then be quite about it.


I need to be quite and just give up the donation huh?
The reason I condensed every answer in one post was to make less noise. You have made more noise in my thread than I have. Aren’t you that guy from the frankenruger thread? I’ve made little noise since I’ve been here.

[BCgunworks]

I need to be quite and just give up the donation huh?
The reason I condensed every answer in one post was to make less noise. You have made more noise in my thread than I have. Aren’t you that guy from the frankenruger thread? I’ve made little noise since I’ve been here.

Yes. He is the one that admitted to trolling....and 44 man is the one who claimed sniper like accuracy with a BFR every other post....with all the same pics.....and even randomly talked about wet and dry does in the middle of a shooting thread.....morning meds are important for some.

[44man]

Have fun, I get a laugh. I have always said revolver VS revolver.
Would I shoot mine against a Franken Ruger with cast? Sure. I would give a break and shoot my .500 JRH against a .357 or maybe the 45-70.

[BCgunworks]

Now we have to use cast....back peddling still....

[44man]

Now we have to use cast....back peddling still....
What would you expect since cast is all I use and this is a CB site.
I can differ and use my SBH with XTP's.
I get cast as good as a "J" word so what is the problem? But I am not stingy and would let you use bullets.
There has to be conditions so since it is not an eyesight thing, I want a scope or you mount a red dot.

[BCgunworks]

What happened to "more accurate than a rifle because it's short and stiff".

And all the other comments you made.

In a nut shell. All these people called you out...I didn't start the thread. Don't even know who did. And don't care.

But then you decided to call me out....that's fine. Watching you backpedal was enough for me to chuckle.

In a nut shell....go outshoot a match grade rifle since you said you could OR choke on the humble pie you have been served.

[ErnieBishop]

44man,
You are embarrassing yourself. I hope you realize this and give this foolishness up.
Almost feels like politics and spinning the narrative: First there were no conditions..."Any gun any distance."
Now to iron sights, cast bullets, must be a revolver, etc...
Since cast is superior in terms of accuracy, I can't see how jacketed would have any advantage:veryconfu
Add to that you have made it clear, your eyes aren't what they used to be, you are older, don't have much of a place to shoot right now.
You are either a very poor communicator, since your printed capabilities and challenges exceed reality, or you are having times of confusion.
I will take one of these two over a third possibility of being intentionally deceitful.

If someone wants to go to Bayside and do a distance challenge, I promise you it will be video taped with witnesses.
If someone came here the same would be done.
I would use a scope, and in all sincerity you wouldn't stand a chance.
Not saying this to be either arrogant or mean. I want to be clear about this.
It would involve multiple distances from several different field positions (under time) that would be further than you have shot at and there would just be targets to aim at (No aiming points above the targets) .
I would use my 357 Mag FR.
Just for a context, before a couple of months ago, I had never shot a revolver beyond 200 yards...Call me a novice LR shooter with a revolver.
You could say I am not a revolver guy compared to many here.
In fact, I have fired less than 200 rounds through revolvers in the last 10 years, maybe 15 years for that matter.

I don't have the time to travel to you, but I would gladly donate $1000 to mission work or a needy family here in the states if you could beat me.
Head to head competition. This way the conditions would be the same for both of us.
Sorry, but I don't trust your claims given what you have said the past year plus.
You may well just beat me beyond comparison, given your skill set, experience, and claims.
But that is a chance I am willing to take.
Be assured IF you really decide to do this that I will have practiced a lot by that time.
I sincerely believe you would be wise to quit making claims that you cannot prove and challenges (Like any gun/any distance and even that your BFR's can out shoot rifles at distance) you don't stand a chance of winning.
Every time you make outlandish statements you lose more credibility, and I believe that is something you don't want to lose.
I don't doubt you are a better shooter than most back in the day, and even more so than the every day kind of handgun shooter.

FWIW-I don't have much respect for "Mall Ninja's," "Tactical Ted's," or "WannaBees" who continue to make outrageous claims.

[44MAG#1]

What I would like to see is leave the Frankenstein revolvers at home. The single shot handguns at home and pick off the shelf revolvers and do a shooting contest at 100 yards and 200 yards offhand standing, both using the same sighting system two hand hold for an average of five 6 shot groups with the Lowest average the winner.
My money would be on 44man on this.

[Love Life]

Id like to see the original challenge. Revolver vs Rifle. No handicaps as none have ever been put forth with the claims that started this thread. Conditions only started appearing when the gauntlet was thrown.

[ErnieBishop]

[smilie=w:

Id like to see the original challenge. Revolver vs Rifle. No handicaps as none have ever been put forth with the claims that started this thread. Conditions only started appearing when the gauntlet was thrown.
[smilie=w:

[BCgunworks]

Id like to see the original challenge. Revolver vs Rifle. No handicaps as none have ever been put forth with the claims that started this thread. Conditions only started appearing when the gauntlet was thrown.
[smilie=w:

[ErnieBishop]

Not even close to the thread's challenge or 44man's claims and challenges.
Sounds like you need to start a new challenge thread and there may be all kinds of takers.
A lot of folks could beat me off-hand.
Personally, as a hunter I don't see a reason to shoot off-hand standing when I can get lower and get a rest.
I'm NOT Quigley with either a handgun or rifle[smilie=s:

What I would like to see is leave the Frankenstein revolvers at home. The single shot handguns at home and pick off the shelf revolvers and do a shooting contest at 100 yards and 200 yards offhand standing, both using the same sighting system two hand hold for an average of five 6 shot groups with the Lowest average the winner.
My money would be on 44man on this.

[TRM]

I think you all need time out:popcorn:

[44MAG#1]

"Not even close to the thread's challenge or 44man's claims and challenges."

I did not say it was was close to the original.

"Sounds like you need to start a new challenge thread and there may be all kinds of takers."

I don't need to start a new challenge thread because I made the statement on what I would like to see and did not issue a challenge.


"A lot of folks could beat me off-hand."

Well so be it.


"Personally, as a hunter I don't see a reason to shoot off-hand standing when I can get lower and get a rest."

Well I guess if you were better offhand you may have a different opinion but then again maybe not.

"I'm NOT Quigley with either a handgun or rifle[smilie=s:"

Maybe you should stand up and shoot and enjoy a different phase of shooting.

[ErnieBishop]

44Mag1,
I'm quite content with the phase(s) of shooting I'm involved in already-Thank you very much.
The standing and shooting with a handgun (Semi-Auto) I am connected with involves humping your gear (everything you need for both rifle [I use a SP for the LR rifle portion] and handgun) over a 2 hour roving course engaging 5" and 10" steel targets under time out to 50 yards with bonus targets further. Carbine shooter out to 500 yards, and Precision Shooter out to 1K (This is where i use a SP). You have to find and range all of your own targets and every miss takes away points. This 3-day match (2 field courses each day) is what I do once a year is where I have shot the majority of my handgun rounds.
I know my limits using irons, and even with a reflex sight or scope I am noticeably better, but still nothing special.
IHSMA never appealed to me. Different strokes for different folks.
I am content knowing where I am at in my shooting ability...

[castalott]

Ok....The rifle and the revolver need to be shot offhand and one handed.... the groups would be measured in 10x yards and the revolver might win....

I knew a guy with a Garand who was teased by a scoped rifle shooter..." I can beat your groups at any distance." The Garand shooter said he would take the bet but he ( the Garand shooter) wanted to design the course of fire. The scoped shooter agreed. The Garand shooter threw his empty Garand backwards over his head on the concrete floor. " Throw your rifle backwards over your head like I did and we'll get started...." . The scoped shooter conceded on the spot.... I wasn't there...I just heard about it.

Dale

[ErnieBishop]

Ok....The rifle and the revolver need to be shot offhand and one handed.... the groups would be measured in 10x yards and the revolver might win....

I knew a guy with a Garand who was teased by a scoped rifle shooter..." I can beat your groups at any distance." The Garand shooter said he would take the bet but he ( the Garand shooter) wanted to design the course of fire. The scoped shooter agreed. The Garand shooter threw his empty Garand backwards over his head on the concrete floor. " Throw your rifle backwards over your head like I did and we'll get started...." . The scoped shooter conceded on the spot.... I wasn't there...I just heard about it.

Dale
Awesome!!!

[tazman]

Awesome!!!

That reminds me of an old story I heard about a duel. A short (5 foot tall) but very fast gunslinger challenged a tall man(6'5") who was not a gunhand to a duel. The tall man accepted provided he could set the terms.
He chose sledgehammers in 5 feet of water.
The shorter man conceded and they eventually became friends.

[ErnieBishop]

Sounds like you need to know in each case.... "A man has to know his limitations."

[oscarflytyer]

Just now seeing this. I love it. short ancedotal story. range with 200 yd 24" steel plate. 10 1/2"bbl Ruger BH 44 Mag, irons, 265 Hornady RNFP. I was ringing the plate 4 or 5 of 6. Two guys other end, 30-30s with scopes. They couldn't hit the plate. Guy came down, stood behind me, watched and asked if I was one hitting the plate - there was no one else on the range! - confirmed it when shot, then went down and he and his buddy packed up and left. Tickled the heck out of me.

[ErnieBishop]

Good shooting!

[JHeath]

I knew a guy with a Garand who was teased by a scoped rifle shooter..." I can beat your groups at any distance." The Garand shooter said he would take the bet but he ( the Garand shooter) wanted to design the course of fire. The scoped shooter agreed. The Garand shooter threw his empty Garand backwards over his head on the concrete floor. " Throw your rifle backwards over your head like I did and we'll get started...." . The scoped shooter conceded on the spot.... I wasn't there...I just heard about it.

Dale

Then there's George Farr, who shot 70 consecutive X's at 1000 yards with a borrowed '03 and issue iron sights, against a Marine with a scoped match rifle who shot 76 including sighters I think. The two shot until sunset before Farr -- who was over 60 years old -- dropped out of the X ring. This was at Camp Perry 1921.

http://www.bobrohrer.com/sea_stories/end_of_an_era.pdf

People amaze when they "didn't know they couldn't do it." We have revolver shooters out there who could embarrass some serious riflemen, or at least shake them up a bit. Not beat any rifleman at any distance, but they could put up a good show.

[apen]

We have revolver shooters out there who could embarrass some serious riflemen, or at least shake them up a bit.

If you mean the revolver shooter could make the serious rifleman concerned with precision, say "I thought I would beat him worse than that", I wouldn't argue.


Ok....The rifle and the revolver need to be shot offhand and one handed.... the groups would be measured in 10x yards and the revolver might win....

I knew a guy with a Garand who was teased by a scoped rifle shooter..." I can beat your groups at any distance." The Garand shooter said he would take the bet but he ( the Garand shooter) wanted to design the course of fire. The scoped shooter agreed. The Garand shooter threw his empty Garand backwards over his head on the concrete floor. " Throw your rifle backwards over your head like I did and we'll get started...." . The scoped shooter conceded on the spot.... I wasn't there...I just heard about it.

Dale

That's been the pre match ritual at every match I've been to. It's good to hear the history behind it though.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL-VX3WbA9U

[44man]

Just now seeing this. I love it. short ancedotal story. range with 200 yd 24" steel plate. 10 1/2"bbl Ruger BH 44 Mag, irons, 265 Hornady RNFP. I was ringing the plate 4 or 5 of 6. Two guys other end, 30-30s with scopes. They couldn't hit the plate. Guy came down, stood behind me, watched and asked if I was one hitting the plate - there was no one else on the range! - confirmed it when shot, then went down and he and his buddy packed up and left. Tickled the heck out of me.
This is what I said and it is fun like no other. No other claims made except between revolvers shot the same way on equal footings. Gun against gun and even switch guns. You shoot mine and I shoot yours. I can tell you for a fact you might out shoot me with my gun because many do.
Would I out shoot you with your Franken Ruger? Maybe but you might not only out shoot me with my gun but also yours.
I can destroy you by making you shoot your loads in both guns and me shooting only my loads.
Sorry I do not own a .357 so bring any other. Bring a .44 Frankin Ruger and you might do better with my SBH AND yours if you shoot my loads.
I stop being fair if you make me shoot what you bring. Not going to happen but you can shoot mine. How about you shoot a Freedom .475 and you shoot my BFR .475 back to back? FAIR? You, not me. Gun V gun. I will stand back and laugh. You shoot, I win, my gun is better.
Back about 62 years ago I had a 27 with an 8-3/8" ribbed barrel and a Phantom scope that I hit 1" targets at 100 yards with shot after shot from prone.
Want to shoot, bring a Frankin .475 against my BFR. You will be in pain in short order. I do not want a pimp .357. Just short of a baby dropping a pacifier.

[M-Tecs]

i have shot many, many groups down to 1/2" with bfr revolvers at 100. Not all the time, mind you but enough to know.


i do. The revolver is capable. Maybe not us but my groups at 500 meters ran 2-1/2" for 5 shots, cast boolits,many times. When i shot ihmsa i could run my ruger sbh, production, open sights to 3/4" at 200 meters, creedmore......................................... .............with a good scope i don't know what the limit is for a decent revolver.


how wrong you are. the revolver can beat a rifle to 500 meters or more.

correct, the revolver is 100% dependent on barrel rise and hold. The barrel will be off the bag before boolit release. You add weight to reduce rise. To free float makes no sense since the barrel is off the bags so added weight might act to reduce rise. Barrel nodes or vibration has left the bags. Short pistol barrels have been proven more accurate then long rifle barrels. I have shot 5 shots into 3/8" at 100 yards with 10" pistol barrels and shot pennies and nickles at 100 with them.
bc is a great gunsmith but i will have a doubt about free floating the revolver since my best at 500 is 2-1/2" and 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 with the first shot a sighter. A short barrel does not vibrate and is off the bag too soon. It is the weight like a ruger sbh hunter.
Funny i hit 1" targets at 100 back in 1953 with a s&w 27 from prone.
i will take a bfr and whip the daylights out of any gun as far as you want to shoot.

?????????????
. No other claims made except between revolvers shot the same way on equal footings. .?????????????

[44man]

Hell yes BC, I do not challenge. But bring a Franken .475 and I will give you my gun and stand back, never to shoot. I do not have to be a part of it. You will have my loads. Run each gun. How would I know you cheat in favor? I will shoot too. Better yet I will have a friend shoot.
Why do you fool with a .357? Where is the Franken BFR?

[44man]

[/b]


??????????????????????????
Exactly, revolver v revolver, single shot V single shot or rifle v rifle. Just where did you see me say revolver against a rifle. I would state the stupid inference. Maybe I said it wrong, so what. It was about revolvers.

[M-Tecs]

Exactly, revolver v revolver, single shot V single shot or rifle v rifle. Just where did you see me say revolver against a rifle. I would state the stupid inference. Maybe I said it wrong, so what. It was about revolvers.

Your words.



I will take a BFR and whip the daylights out of any gun as far as you want to shoot.

[ErnieBishop]

:veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu

Hell yes BC, I do not challenge. But bring a Franken .475 and I will give you my gun and stand back, never to shoot. I do not have to be a part of it. You will have my loads. Run each gun. How would I know you cheat in favor? I will shoot too. Better yet I will have a friend shoot.
Why do you fool with a .357? Where is the Franken BFR?
:veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu

[ErnieBishop]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

This is what I said and it is fun like no other. No other claims made except between revolvers shot the same way on equal footings. Gun against gun and even switch guns. You shoot mine and I shoot yours. I can tell you for a fact you might out shoot me with my gun because many do.
Would I out shoot you with your Franken Ruger? Maybe but you might not only out shoot me with my gun but also yours.
I can destroy you by making you shoot your loads in both guns and me shooting only my loads.
Sorry I do not own a .357 so bring any other. Bring a .44 Frankin Ruger and you might do better with my SBH AND yours if you shoot my loads.
I stop being fair if you make me shoot what you bring. Not going to happen but you can shoot mine. How about you shoot a Freedom .475 and you shoot my BFR .475 back to back? FAIR? You, not me. Gun V gun. I will stand back and laugh. You shoot, I win, my gun is better.
Back about 62 years ago I had a 27 with an 8-3/8" ribbed barrel and a Phantom scope that I hit 1" targets at 100 yards with shot after shot from prone.
Want to shoot, bring a Frankin .475 against my BFR. You will be in pain in short order. I do not want a pimp .357. Just short of a baby dropping a pacifier.
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[JSH]

I wondered when this would come to a head.
I saw way to much grey area in the OP.
Ernie, I would just buy you the ice cream and the coke and get it over with, lol. Never got out west of me to shake your hand, but still look forward to it when time allows.
"Mall Ninjas" that one always cracks me up.
Jeff

[ErnieBishop]

Maybe you can make it to WY-SHOT in June and then you could do more than shake my hand...You would be shooting with a group of folks who push distance with all kinds of handguns. Steel and prairie dogs make a great combination.

I wondered when this would come to a head.
I saw way to much grey area in the OP.
Ernie, I would just buy you the ice cream and the coke and get it over with, lol. Never got out west of me to shake your hand, but still look forward to it when time allows.
"Mall Ninjas" that one always cracks me up.
Jeff

[BCgunworks]

This is funny as heck....since ishma is something 44man likes to talk about....and has rifle like accuracy....

where are the national and world championship awards?

2.5" at 500 yards....consistently....with a factory gun.....I would video that and have witnesses....could prob get in the world record books....

you keep trying to challenge me...don't know why....I didn't start this thread....did laugh like hell at it tho....and all your foolish claims.

your statements have been quoted above by others. They are exact word for word of what you have stated in multiple threads.

these are active members that all seem to have a good rep.

hows that humble pie taste? Little bitter?

if you want to shoot against me....or many of the others pushing the handgun envelope I suggest you show up to Wyshot 2016 in Gillette Wy. There will be several people there shooting your hated franken Rugers....and you will prob be the only one with a BFR....

pM Ernie bishop for details. We will have group rates at a local hotel. I drive over 30 hours to get there so no excuses.

So there is your chance.....bring you BFR....your ego....some made up stories....well set up a table for you to suck down that humble pie while people are smacking pdogs at distance up to 2000 yards with handguns....

[Love Life]

Warning!! Thread drift!!

At the WYSHOT, does anybody use the Freedom Arms single shots?

[BCgunworks]

Warning!! Thread drift!!

At the WYSHOT, does anybody use the Freedom Arms single shots?

ernie has one....but I don't think anyone does. Mainly xp and MOa and some TC. Handful of traditional handguns

[44man]

No, I am on SS and will not go cross country.
I hate to challenge but does a free float revolver shoot better. Short gun barrels are stiff without vibration nodes. Only only one thing controls a revolver, hold and barrel rise. The grip is more important then the barrel.
Yes, I shot IHMSA and won Ohio state with a SBH with 79 out of 80, shook at the last ram. You do not know unless you hit 20 straight turkeys at 150 meters. Then to shoot state champ with a Ruger mark II out of box with no sight settings the same year. I missed three, first pig, turkey and ram but spotter seen hits. I hit all chickens at 100 yards for a shoot off. 57 out of 60. All shoot off chickens.
I shot with the best of the best, Boyd Carpenter, Blackie Sleeva, David Bradshaw, Josie Engle.
How the hell can you claim to be better. I was international class with all guns in every class. Production revolver to unlimited. You have no stinking idea until you shoot against the best where a tiny target at 200 meters will win. Get off my back. My friends would eat you alive.
You have not made cast shoot either.
I learned to love my friends, we would beat each other and a hug was the best thing ever. Win or lose. Sportsmanship was our way. Now it is hate, I can't go that way. You think it is a keyboard. Most of you do shoot from it. 25 yards with a revolver, the Francon Ruger will turn you into a 700 yard shooter.

[BCgunworks]

No, I am on SS and will not go cross country.
I hate to challenge but does a free float revolver shoot better. Short gun barrels are stiff without vibration nodes. Only only one thing controls a revolver, hold and barrel rise. The grip is more important then the barrel.
Yes, I shot IHMSA and won Ohio state with a SBH with 79 out of 80, shook at the last ram. You do not know unless you hit 20 straight turkeys at 150 meters. Then to shoot state champ with a Ruger mark II out of box with no sight settings the same year. I missed three, first pig, turkey and ram but spotter seen hits. I hit all chickens at 100 yards for a shoot off. 57 out of 60. All shoot off chickens.
I shot with the best of the best, Boyd Carpenter, Blackie Sleeva, David Bradshaw, Josie Engle.
How the hell can you claim to be better. I was international class with all guns in every class. Production revolver to unlimited. You have no stinking idea until you shoot against the best where a tiny target at 200 meters will win. Get off my back. My friends would eat you alive.
You have not made cast shoot either.
I learned to love my friends, we would beat each other and a hug was the best thing ever. Win or lose. Sportsmanship was our way. Now it is hate, I can't go that way. You think it is a keyboard. Most of you do shoot from it. 25 yards with a revolver, the Francon Ruger will turn you into a 700 yard shooter.

never attacked you....you came after my design and attacked me....now your rubbish has caught up with you. Funny isn't it?

Never would have said a thing to you if you didn't act like an ignorant fool towards me. I sure did fire back at you....and you earned it. And you earned everything in this thread.

Never claimed to to be the best shot in the world....but I have done quite a bit with standard handguns and wanted to do more....so I made it happen...and it works quite well...pdogs at almost 400 yards make your little steel chicken look like a truck hood.

I am glad the OP started this thread. I also thank the ones who copied and quoted all your statements. Exposing the rubbish all in one thread.

I am not the "grandmaster" of shooting, I am not the "grandmaster" of gunsmithing, I am not the best at anything. There is always someone better.

you could learn a lot from that statement above.

This thread will help new comers and lurkers who read this forum for advise to realize what real information is as it realates to our sport. Maybe this will keep them from becoming discouraged when people ask about accuracy with X gun and someone (44man) posts crazy claims of sub Moa groups past 1/4 mile with factory handguns.

those kinds of posts discourage people who are new or learning the sport....when their shooting 3-5-10" at 25 yards as they learn.....then they read some rubbish about someone walking out and shooting sub Moa at 1/4 mile with a 5" BFR like its child's play.

Enjoy the humble pie.

[BCgunworks]

I have had enough of the BS.....44man is now on my ignore list....but I can still hear him eating that humble pie![smilie=s:

[ErnieBishop]

Some guys shot pd's with my 223 Rem FA 2 years ago.
My other barrel is a 6.5 Swede Improved.
There will be a guy coming for WY-SHOT 2016 for the first time who has a FA single-shot in 7-08 and he just took a buck antelope with it this year. He really likes his.
For big game with bottleneck cartridges, the 243 Win, 260 Rem, 7-08 and 308 would be my top choices, with the 260 and the 7-08 being my favorites.
I prefer the FA over TC products FWIW.


Warning!! Thread drift!!

At the WYSHOT, does anybody use the Freedom Arms single shots?

[BCgunworks]

Some guys shot pd's with my 223 Rem FA 2 years ago.
My other barrel is a 6.5 Swede Improved.
There will be a guy coming for WY-SHOT 2016 for the first time who has a FA single-shot in 7-08 and he just took a buck antelope with it this year. He really likes his.
For big game with bottleneck cartridges, the 243 Win, 260 Rem, 7-08 and 308 would be my top choices, with the 260 and the 7-08 being my favorites.
I prefer the FA over TC products FWIW.

I like the fa....

[ErnieBishop]

I have responded in a more detailed way to Love Life in a PM about the FA single-shot.
FYI - WY-SHOT is a 3-day steel shoot and prairie dog shot for handguns of all kinds...No rifles allowed.
There is a steel shoot comp that you can only be competitive with using a SP, but any handgun could be used, if you wanted to. Most guys shoot from the prone position, but you could stand and shoot off-hand if you wanted. There will be one stage next year (NEW) that requires everyone to shoot from a kneeling or sitting position.
No one is required to shoot in the steel competition, just as no one is required to kill pd's. You can do what you want.
Some just shoot dogs, while others just shoot steel, and of course most do both.
There is cash prizes and other prizes likes scopes, Krieger barrels, gunsmith work, bullets, powder, etc..
Some guys do the majority of pd'ing with semi-autos, and revolvers. Some primarily use 22lr's.
We have folks going for 500 yards plus pd's with 22lr's (Both semi-auto and bolt) handguns and others going for 1000 yard and 2000 yards plus kills with specialty pistols. Others are going for maximum red mist...
Use what you want and have a great time.

[BCgunworks]

I love blowing up pdogs at Wyshot. :bigsmyl2:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z0KHi80vCus

[apen]

Fine shooting......you aren't too shabby at "whack a mole" here either.

[BCgunworks]

Fine shooting......you aren't too shabby at "whack a mole" here either.

I think we smacked one between the eyes here.....:violin:

[Plastikosmd]

Pm sent Ernie, I want to know more about the FA single also

[M-Tecs]

I have responded in a more detailed way to Love Life in a PM about the FA single-shot.
FYI - WY-SHOT is a 3-day steel shoot and prairie dog shot for handguns of all kinds...No rifles allowed.
There is a steel shoot comp that you can only be competitive with using a SP, but any handgun could be used, if you wanted to. Most guys shoot from the prone position, but you could stand and shoot off-hand if you wanted. There will be one stage next year (NEW) that requires everyone to shoot from a kneeling or sitting position.
No one is required to shoot in the steel competition, just as no one is required to kill pd's. You can do what you want.
Some just shoot dogs, while others just shoot steel, and of course most do both.
There is cash prizes and other prizes likes scopes, Krieger barrels, gunsmith work, bullets, powder, etc..
Some guys do the majority of pd'ing with semi-autos, and revolvers. Some primarily use 22lr's.
We have folks going for 500 yards plus pd's with 22lr's (Both semi-auto and bolt) handguns and others going for 1000 yard and 2000 yards plus kills with specialty pistols. Others are going for maximum red mist...
Use what you want and have a great time.

I am a maximum red mist type. I have done the 1,000 yard pd with a rifle. Now my goal is 75% hits.

[BCgunworks]

Ernie may remember. I think the long dog last year was with a xp100. Like 1500 yards

[M-Tecs]

When Remington discontinued the XP100R's I got a great deals on .223, 260 and 35 Rem. I had planned on rebarreling the 35 Rem to 6mm Dasher but haven't gotten around to it. Just picked up a 35 Rem barrel for my Contender so it might still turn into a 6mm Dasher.

[ErnieBishop]

Marc killed one at 1100-1200 this year (257 Roberts AI?), while the year before Erik killed a couple at 1100 yards (6.5-284) and Aaron nailed one in the 1400-1500 yards range with his 6 Dasher XP.
I have texted Marc to get the actual distance for this past June.
We will have 3-4 guys set-up for 2000 yards plus this coming June. I figure my 1800 yard pd (6.5-24 XP)and 1590 yard pd (6-284 XP) kills from 2004 will be surpassed in 2016. After that, I will work on further distances for myself.

Ernie may remember. I think the long dog last year was with a xp100. Like 1500 yards

[ErnieBishop]

Bob and crew make a quality product with single-shot FA specialty pistol.
I would probably choose the 16" 260 Rem or the 7-08 15" for big game myself.
The 223 is a just nice shooter.
The new 243 Winchester 8T barrel would be a great dual purpose set-up for both varmints and deer/antelope.
With the prototype I was hitting steel at 500 yards with a 44 Mag and factory Ammo that Bob had brought to a LR specialty pistol match shooting off of the bench.
This is a great little specialty pistol whether shooting straight wall or bottleneck cartridges whether you are a left-hand or right hand shooter.
I choose this SP any day and all day before a TC product.

Pm sent Ernie, I want to know more about the FA single also

[ErnieBishop]

Marc S. responded and his kill was at 1164 yards with Old Blue, a 6.5-284 (NOT the 257 Bob AI) rear-grip XP-100.

Here is a group on steel that Aaron shot at 2,018 yards with his rear grip 7mm Dakota XP shooting 180 grain Hybrids.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/Aaron20181_zps41188106.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/Aaron20181_zps41188106.jpg.html)
Here is the portable set-up we were using when I was spotting for him.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/wyshot_zps5dae1868.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/wyshot_zps5dae1868.jpg.html)
And here is my son's longest to date at WY-Shot in 2014. He just wanted to kill one over a grand and got that accomplished on his first time out in less than an hour. 1181 yards.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/FatherampSon_zps2cc266cb.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/FatherampSon_zps2cc266cb.jpg.html)
Aaron's at 1292 yards - 6 Dasher. I thought he shot on further in 2014, but I don't have a pic handy.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j4/xphunter_2006/Aaron1292pd_zps727af954.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/xphunter_2006/media/Aaron1292pd_zps727af954.jpg.html)

[ErnieBishop]

Added some more info about the FA SP in my post above...

[ErnieBishop]

Since we have been off topic a little bit here's a video for you guys you keep asking me more questions about the FA single shot handgun: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr1XjK5aFak

[apen]

Is that a bag rider attachment on the bottom of the pistol grip? I can't see from the pic. Those things must have minimal recoil to be using the NF BR scope. I know you said you could use a rifle scope on the FR.

[ErnieBishop]

Yes they are. On Erik's 6.5-24 and on Aarons 6 mm Dasher.
With a good muzzle brake I can shoot almost any cartridge in a specialty pistol and use a high magnification rifle scope safely

[Plastikosmd]

Agree, with lighter calibers u can do it without a brake with comfort, even an old school external adjust scope. This is a 223. Muzzle blast can be impressive, I double my hearing protection
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/encore/274ecdc4.jpg

[ErnieBishop]

I use double hearing protection as well.
6XC with 105's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD03Aqo_XfI&index=7&list=FLfEoqqK-q7iARmKwk742NZg
7mm SAUM (Short Action Ultra Mag) with 162's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_FbsGLxxw8&index=27&list=FLfEoqqK-q7iARmKwk742NZg

[apen]

FYI - WY-SHOT is a 3-day steel shoot and prairie dog shot for handguns of all kinds...No rifles allowed.

Safety first.....you don't want some yahoo out there with a dang rifle blowing bullets haphazardly all over the place. :smile:

[ErnieBishop]

I am kind of a safety Nazi, regardless of the weapon.
Come play with us in June...

Safety first.....you don't want some yahoo out there with a dang rifle blowing bullets haphazardly all over the place. :smile:

[BCgunworks]

Major thread drift.....I just ordered a new gun!
freedom arms single shot in 338 and 223

[MBTcustom]

This thread is aimed (at least by some) at making 44man eat his words.
I detest it when people take what somebody says out of context.

However, 44man has made claims and the OP did issue a challenge. Honest men must face forward.
44man stated he could whip any gun, and I would like to see him demonstrate this.
However, I can build "a lowly 308" that can shoot sharper than 44man can, even on his best day, so I see that as a crummy proposition.
I think a head to head contest between two 45-70 caliber firearms at 500 yards is fair. Both with cast lead. Both with iron sights. But 44man gets his pistol, and the challenger can choose their rifle. (I suggest a Sharps, or a H&R buffalo classic.)
If it weren't for the $100 vs $1000 terms, I would say let's be gentlemen and let 44man attempt this feat three times. Being the challenge was issued as it is, let the chips fall where they may.

If everyone is willing, I'd say even if 44man loses, I honestly want to see how close he can get.
We are here to see what is possible at our best, not to rub eachothers nose in our mediocrity.

[ole 5 hole group]

Well, I though just maybe this thread was just going to drift away and the challenge made its point to all. Back in the day 44Man was a sharp cookie, both as a handgun enthusiast and experimenter in most things that used gun powder or an arrow.

You don’t win a State Championship in IHMSA by being just good. For those of you that have competed seriously in State and National matches in any of the shooting disciplines (rifle, handgun, air rifle etc) should know just what it takes to be the Champion and just being good doesn’t cut it. Not many are able to compete against the top dogs and the top dogs just keep competing against one another until some young pups come along and run with the pack.

Most just show up for the comradely and to have a great time at these competitive sanctioned shooting events – everyone gets a patch or two for entering and paying the price of admission to the line. When I see someone with a vest full of patches and a zillion pins in his cap – I know that man enjoys shooting and he attends and shoots at a lot of sanctioned shooting events but he isn’t a top contender, as those boys are always in stealth mode. How many can consistently run in the top 10 or the top 20 year after year? I sure couldn’t but I had one good year that I didn’t stumble and I could be counted on to be a threat for a couple years if the big boys had one or two bad relays.

44Man was in that pack and won one (1) year and that says a lot. IMO he was good enough to do what he said he’s done but I don’t think some of the claims occurred more than once in his shooting career. 3-shot half inch group at 500 yards with a revolver – once OK, twice? I think not. I’ve done and seen done some pretty amazing shots made but luck was the name of the game. BUT, if one has put in the serious trigger time with a quality firearm, it seems like that person is luckier than most.

He’s 78 – we all know that, he’s still climbing in a tree stand and killing deer – you should be so lucky to live that long let alone still killing deer with a handgun and taking that deer from field dressing to the freezer by yourself at that age. He tells it how he remembers it with a poor choice of words sometimes but that’s good enough for me. The challenge made its point and I totally agree that it had to be made for the upcoming lads who are struggling at the 25 yard line shooting 6 inch groups. Shooting is a developed skill and depending upon the shooting discipline they take a lot of quality trigger time and money – some a whole lot more time & money than others.

[Plastikosmd]

Ya had me until the ending^

Bc Gratz on the FA. I await a report as I save for one and a Franken someday.

[ole 5 hole group]

^^^ You are correct Plastikosmd - that last sentence didn't belong in this thread, so I removed it. jmort said it better than I could. Carry on.

[ErnieBishop]

I love this thread :drinks:

[BCgunworks]

:popcorn:

[jmort]

To me this is just another jack-*** thread that will drive off yet another plank member who has forgotten more about cast bullets than the new members shooting jacketed bullets will ever know about cast bullets. Great, we get stuck with new members shooting jacketed bullets at rodents and we lose one of the last of the old time members who knows a whole lot about cast bullets. We get stuck with new members who are clueless about what makes cast bullets work. Thanks for further degrading our knowledge base. 44man is a stud who should be respected.

[cainttype]

WARNING...THREAD DRIFT
I support all manner of "pushing the envelope", in every discipline. I think NASCAR innovations can, and will, lead to new additions to high performance vehicles that we'll see on the road every day. I know the benchrest rifle pursuit pushes all standards of accuracy and component quality to it's limits, and eventually the shooting sports benefits from their efforts.
It wasn't firearms manufacturers that developed the practical use of pistol compensators for the myriad of examples that exist today, it was competitive handgun shooters and their pursuit for speed with accurate follow-up shots.
That said, I have no use for a "handgun" that can't be comfortably carried in, and deployed from, a standard type holster... If my ultra-light carbine is lighter than some revolver that needs a bipod to use effectively, I have no use or interest in it... just my take on things.

I'm glad there are those with extreme tastes, and the will to pursue them. It opens up possibilities unimagined by many. I hope they never stop.

I guess I'm "Old School", but I like most things that way.

[dragon813gt]

I just bought a Glock G20. I'm ready to take any and all rifles on at 1,000 yards ;)

[ErnieBishop]

Personally, I have asked 44man to hold off on these ridiculous LR "claims" that he has accomplished multiple times, beating rifles, before this thread was started...
I have never doubted his knowledge base or his accomplishments in ISHMA.
I have not suggested he stopped posting about CB's.

In my opinion respect can be both earned and lost as is trust.
44Man is not as old as my father, but if my dad started making foolish claims and or unrealistic challenges to multitudes of people, I would be upset, embarrassed, and would have a visit about needing to stop it.
It wouldn't take away from his other skill sets.
But if continued, people would lose trust in his word.
I get it, you are afraid he will leave, but he has been confronted for this kind of behavior before and it hasn't stopped him yet.
Others are concerned about shooters being discouraged when such claims are being made.
Both are valid concerns.


Great, we get stuck with new members shooting jacketed bullets at rodents and we lose one of the last of the old time members who knows a whole lot about cast bullets. We get stuck with new members who are clueless about what makes cast bullets work. Thanks for further degrading our knowledge base. 44man is a stud who should be respected.

[44MAG#1]

While I have been into it with 44man many times it took me a,long time to understand him. He is a cheerleader of sorts that is as good as cheering along the "team" as he is in shooting.
i really like him and hope he lives to be 150 and is still posting.
I still disagree with him on some things and always will.
I too look at a handgun as a simple tote able gun that is powerful yet convinient firearm.
Even a Contender or an Encore I can champion as a packable gun in reasonable form.
Some of these monstrosities that are on YouTube where shooters are shooting 1000 yards or more are nothing but specialty rifles with a handgun grip.
Use a stock Contender or Encore with a dot sight or a low power scope that can be handled with relative ease offhand if the need arises and that is good.
While I may be an ignorant troll and an undesirable member I still think when handguns go out to stupid levelsof build just to wow people it is stupid to call them a handgun with riflescopes on them to boot.
Of course it would be fun to have a 15 pound hand gun with a 16 inch barrel with a 36 power scope mounted on it with the whole shebang mounted on a hundred pound piece of I Beam chambered in a 6MM-284 using. 140 VLD bullets all the while being pulled around at the range and the field on a specially set up radio flyer wagon with all terrain wheels with a built in range finder.

[TRM]

Amen wasn't this A cast boolit forum? I sure miss the old days. Felix, Junior and all the rest.

[Plastikosmd]

No worries Ole 5 shot. I think I know what you are saying. On the net, sometimes intent and the posting don't match up. No blood, no foul

[OnHoPr]

I too look at a handgun as a simple tote able gun that is powerful yet convinient firearm.
Even a Contender or an Encore I can champion as a packable gun in reasonable form.
Some of these monstrosities that are on YouTube where shooters are shooting 1000 yards or more are nothing but specialty rifles with a handgun grip.
Use a stock Contender or Encore with a dot sight or a low power scope that can be handled with relative ease offhand if the need arises and that is good.
While I may be an ignorant troll and an undesirable member I still think when handguns go out to stupid levelsof build just to wow people it is stupid to call them a handgun with riflescopes on them to boot.
Of course it would be fun to have a 15 pound hand gun with a 16 inch barrel with a 36 power scope mounted on it with the whole shebang mounted on a hundred pound piece of I Beam chambered in a 6MM-284 using. 140 VLD bullets all the while being pulled around at the range and the field on a specially set up radio flyer wagon with all terrain wheels with a built in range finder.

I see your post as more down to earth in general handgun usage at a known leveling point in the era. There are a few good handgunners around. What was the Contender or Encore of yesteryear considered. Laws were put into place to create that level of what is considered handgun. Those levels are being tweaked for utmost performance. It is called creation and betterment of sorts. The blunderbust is a few centuries old, how did we get to this point. Back centuries ago they waxed feathers to make wings, now we have space flight to Mars and probes beyond. It is the USA where weapons are not only used for the military, but for sport, sort of a freedom. There are instances where that type of weapon is not only bumping the ceiling, but could also be convenient like sitting in a raised 4x4 box blind over strip cut corn and not having the length to get congested in the blind, but still need to reach out and touch something along with varmints. So, somethings may not be in the norm of things at the time, but what about in the future. A couple of other things is that for one, old guys with 50 year old pizza and Coors bellies might be not able to shoot prone with a rifle any longer for those ranges because that ole blood pressure would just be bouncing those crosshairs around. There was also no mention of how many shots was needed to connect on a PD at those ranges. At those ranges, bullet speeds, BC,s, and 10 mph fluctuating winds, and ES in loads I wonder how many shots. There also seems to be a lit chest thumpin from two different venues that would be hard to merge in competition. Though, I have seen some jaw dropping oddities before.

[44MAG#1]

"So, somethings may not be in the norm of things at the time, but what about in the future."

I am 63 years of age. The future is not too important to me as far as Buck Rogers Space Guns go.
If a Space Gun is whats one wants that is fine. You pay your money, you buy what you want.
Now if I were 20 again my idea may be different.
To each his own.