100 yard target shooters with pistols: you ever try untrimmed brass?

[Whiterabbit]

So, I've been trying to work up a solid load for 100 yard hunting, goal is 6" offhand and as good as I can get it form bags, and I've been having some issues.

I got it to the point where I can get 3-4 about twice as tight as I expect, then throw one or two rounds 6-8" away. That's fine if I'm offhand, but if the flyer is TDC when I'm aiming at game, I'm in trouble unless she is <40 yards away.

So loading this time around I inspect the brass and I see that some pieces (about 10-20%) are much longer than other pieces. It seems to fit the narrative I'm finding myself in. Inspection of loaded rounds (before), I saw no evidence of weak crimps or excessive crimps. But downrange tells the story.

My question is, have any of you shot for groups with brass you knew varied in length? Did you notice a difference? Do you believe I can blame the brass for my poor shooting?

For the record, I trimmed all the brass and loaded again, but it might be more time before I can get to the range, so I won't have an answer generated here for some time. So what do you think I can expect next time out?

[Outpost75]

I think you may need to reconsider what a handgun is for.

Typical handgun ammunition, such as the .357 or .44 Magnum will not group much better than 2 inches at 50 yards for ten-shot groups fired from an industrial test barrel, fired in a tunnel on a return-to-battery rest. Ordinary service-grade ammunition is considered quite good if it does that at 25 yards.

When you then take a functional pistol or revolver and sum the sigmas of what the ammunition is capable of fired from a test barrel, then factor in the inherent dispersion of the pistol or revolver fired from a machine rest, then factor in the shooter's holding error or variation in natural point of aim, any effects of wind, light, mirage, zeroing errors, range estimation errors, and any effects of variation in velocity upon recoil impulse and angle of departure from the bore, based upon a hand hold, I think you are dreaming expecting 6 inches at 100 yards, if you expect any degree of regularity.

I knew a CWO on the Marine Corps pistol team who was a High Master competitive shooter and double Distinguished with both rifle and pistol, who could regularly make hits on a military D or F silhouette at 200 yards with an M1911 service pistol. Indeed, he killed enemy soldiers in combat during Tet '68 with a .45 at over 100 yards, which were witnessed. He was taught how to do that by none other than Col. Walter Walsh, who had done the same thing in WW2 and before that as an FBI agent.

I think 8" at 100 yards with a service pistol or revolver is attainable and realistic.

This target was shot with a Colt New Service M1909 at 100 yards with Saeco #954 and 7 grains of Bullseye.

151438

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I am not sure how much the brass will be changing it it would be worth a new bag of brass and trim all the same , but the first thing I would do is label my cylinder and shoot test groups with each chamber , I would want to know if it is just 1 or 2 chambers that shoot off or wild because that may be a throat irregularity issue that will cause problems no matter the brass length

[Whiterabbit]

groups were shot in one chamber.

[Tackleberry41]

Consistency is a big thing when it comes to shooting. Any variation is going to open groups. May not matter a t close range plinking. But 100yds with a pistol. I would want brass to all be trimmed the same length. Or your going to get more or less flare in that step, then more or less crimp at that stage. A heavier crimp or lighter will certainly mess things up.

[44man]

Revolver brass seldom lengthens but can affect crimp but crimp is no use for groups anyway. it is case tension first. First shots from new brass will SHORTEN and it is rare to need to trim. The stuff just does not flow like rifle brass. Thousands of rounds that never seen a trimmer leads me away from that. I just pulled .44 cases out of the box and all are 1.275 after shot so many times I lost count. My .475 brass is 1.385 with a max of 1.390" and never trimmed. I have never trimmed .500 JRH brass either. I do NOT count loads with brass, waste of time.
One chamber is not a revolver so use them all.
Do NOT use new brass or it will go all over the place. If you did it is the answer.

[44man]

I think you may need to reconsider what a handgun is for.

Typical handgun ammunition, such as the .357 or .44 Magnum will not group much better than 2 inches at 50 yards for ten-shot groups fired from an industrial test barrel, fired in a tunnel on a return-to-battery rest. Ordinary service-grade ammunition is considered quite good if it does that at 25 yards.

When you then take a functional pistol or revolver and sum the sigmas of what the ammunition is capable of fired from a test barrel, then factor in the inherent dispersion of the pistol or revolver fired from a machine rest, then factor in the shooter's holding error or variation in natural point of aim, any effects of wind, light, mirage, zeroing errors, range estimation errors, and any effects of variation in velocity upon recoil impulse and angle of departure from the bore, based upon a hand hold, I think you are dreaming expecting 6 inches at 100 yards, if you expect any degree of regularity.

I knew a CWO on the Marine Corps pistol team who was a High Master competitive shooter and double Distinguished with both rifle and pistol, who could regularly make hits on a military D or F silhouette at 200 yards with an M1911 service pistol. Indeed, he killed enemy soldiers in combat during Tet '68 with a .45 at over 100 yards, which were witnessed. He was taught how to do that by none other than Col. Walter Walsh, who had done the same thing in WW2 and before that as an FBI agent.

I think 8" at 100 yards with a service pistol or revolver is attainable and realistic.

This target was shot with a Colt New Service M1909 at 100 yards with Saeco #954 and 7 grains of Bullseye.

151438
How wrong you are. The revolver can beat a rifle to 500 meters or more. Yes I seen a Marine with a 1911 hit almost every steel at Ihmsa to 200 meters with a 1911 but could not knock steel over. I shot Quantico long ago. Sad you do not know revolvers. Might be the toy, snub nose until you watch bob or Jerry break a balloon at 1000 yards with a nine revolver. I wish I could do it but not going to happen.
If I got 2" at 25 or 50 yards, the gun is gone right quick. The revolver is the best stinking machine ever made.

[williamwaco]

Are you saying 6 to 8 inches at 100 yds, off hand, is poor shooting ???

I am not about to mention my 100 yard groups.

[c1skout]

My best load so far will go into 6" at 100yds from a rest, I can do about 8 - 12" offhand depending on the wind, light, my eyes, etc. I think that's all the better I can do right now, if I had a better load I'd never know it!

[Tom W.]

I trimmed all of my .44 brass, once, after I had surgery and was bored out of my mind. I don't know what possessed me at the time, but I assure you that it won't happen again.

[Whiterabbit]

I don't want to start a fight about what number constitutes a good group at 100 yards with a scoped revolver. Let me put it this way:

I have a known good load with bullet A. When I shoot well, it stays in the black of an NRA target (target X) at 100 yards consistent. When I put a shot outside the black, I always feel as though I pull the shot. Weak wrist, blurry vision, bad fundamentals, bad day out. We all have them. Based on target response, it is very good feedback about how good the load is. (this load is not sensitive to case length)

I am developing load B for bullet B. 3 shots, I cut the bullet A group in half. Pretty good! then a couple shots fly. I feel like they are good shots. Not like load A at all. Feels good, look in the scope, a couple get pulled out of the black. Not good. Why. Well, it's always possible it is the shooter, but "feeling like this" on the line nets all holes in the black with load A. So I have to ask is there something in the load that is no good? Then I see the cases are of varying lengths. one case was maybe even .08" longer (look at that on calipers, that's a mile long). Each of these cases was inspected at loading, so it's not like that long one super-crushed the bullet in crimp. Seemed OK. But still, case length varied.

The question is, does it make sense as a model, that my issues could be nailed to case length? Or am I already going down the wrong thought path?

[WALLNUTT]

If 8" was all you could do at 100yds there would be no revolver class in IHMSA.

[Outpost75]

....I shot Quantico long ago.....The revolver is the best stinking machine ever made.

Did you know Ole Dad Wincentsen as an NCO, when he was a WO or after he got commissioned? How about Jim Land, David Boyd or Dumpy Bartlett?

[fecmech]

These groups are from my Model 14-3 .38 spl at 100 yds off the bench, sight is a Millett 3 moa red dot. The load was bullseye and the H&G 39 RN and what I use shooting Hunters Pistol Silhouette for the rams. As you can see the gun can easily clean the 100 yd bank of rams (half size),me not so much. I usually average 6-7 rams, best was 9. That dot sure wiggles around an awful lot offhand at a 100!
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22896&d=1276549398

[runfiverun]

if your extra case length is touching the cylinder throat it could be your issue.
it could also be doing something to the boolit as it passes by if it's rolled in deeper than it blows out before the base goes past.
if you are going to precision shoot you must also precision reload just like for a rifle.
I know you got some 1-2" 100 yd groups in you and the gun the trick is to keep on moving forward with each step in the process until you both get there.
one other thing you can look at down the road is your boolits bhn, another is the friction of your lube, and primer choice can also help bring things into better alignment.
but you have to have consistent neck tension to get started along the path first.

[dtknowles]

Shooters around here are not all that special, not much into competition. I shot my revolver at the 8 inch plates at a hundred yards and when I hit the plates 3 out of 5 times off an impromptu rest, it was worthy of comments from the people who noticed what I was doing. Iron sights.

Yes, case length could be an issue for a few reasons, they have been mentioned. I hate trimming so I just sort by length. I think 8 inch groups at 100 yards with a revolver are pretty good but not great.

Tim

[Outpost75]

....I shot my revolver at the 8 inch plates at a hundred yards and when I hit the plates 3 out of 5 times off an impromptu rest, it was worthy of comments from the people who noticed what I was doing. Iron sights.....I hate trimming so I just sort by length. I think 8 inch groups at 100 yards with a revolver are pretty good but not great.

We both learned from similar old salts...

[contender1]

I shoot a lot of handgun stuff at 50, 100, 150 & even 200 yds. Heck,, I've played with it out past 400 yds. A handgun CAN do it.
Now,,, as to why you are having issues. Might I suggest you go to Lee Martin's Single Action forum,,, & look into what David Bradshaw has to say about long range handgunning. He's forgotten more than I'll ever know.

[wv109323]

I don't think case length will be all your problem. Different case length will give different bullet crimp but I don't think that affects accuracy that much..
With that said I had a friend that shot a Model 14 with a scope in NRA Hunters Pistol Silhouette. He won the state championship several years. He used 5.0 of Unique with a 158 jacketed bullet. I am sure he never trimmed brass . His ammo was loaded on a Star progressive.
It is hard to cast a bullet that is consistent and accurate at 100 yards with all things considered..
There are many more factors to consider with cast boolits. First boolit to bore fit. Boolit to chamber throat fit. Bullet base consistency. Is case neck expansion large enough to prevent bullet deformation during seating? With jacketed bullets many of these disappear. Gun manufacturers usually optimize tolerances for jacketed bullets. Reloading dies are more usually dimensioned for jacketed bullets.

[apen]

How wrong you are. The revolver can beat a rifle to 500 meters or more. Yes I seen a Marine with a 1911 hit almost every steel at Ihmsa to 200 meters with a 1911 but could not knock steel over. I shot Quantico long ago. Sad you do not know revolvers. Might be the toy, snub nose until you watch bob or Jerry break a balloon at 1000 yards with a nine revolver. I wish I could do it but not going to happen.
If I got 2" at 25 or 50 yards, the gun is gone right quick. The revolver is the best stinking machine ever made.


What does that mean when you say a revolver "can" beat a rifle at 500 yards? Can't that be said for a trebuchet at the same distance?
I'll beat the ever living snot out of any revolver shooter at 500 yards with my rifle every time. I will bet money on it too. I kind of feel foolish posing this, but this perception that it is likely to beat a rifle at 500 yards, just keeps going and going, and going, and going....Do you all really believe this? I feel like I am challenging a one legged man to a foot race......although I shouldn't based on this place....I'd be handicapped. What kind of rifle is this.....one you have smithed?
Ridiculous.

[Whiterabbit]

Hi guys,


I don't want to start a fight about what number constitutes a good group at 100 yards with a scoped revolver.

Let's take the competitiveness to another thread. It's a topic that can be hashed out somewhere else.

[apen]

It's not competitiveness, it's a reality check and it's germane to the topic at hand. I'll not post in your thread any more.

[44man]

What does that mean when you say a revolver "can" beat a rifle at 500 yards? Can't that be said for a trebuchet at the same distance?
I'll beat the ever living snot out of any revolver shooter at 500 yards with my rifle every time. I will bet money on it too. I kind of feel foolish posing this, but this perception that it is likely to beat a rifle at 500 yards, just keeps going and going, and going, and going....Do you all really believe this? I feel like I am challenging a one legged man to a foot race......although I shouldn't based on this place....I'd be handicapped. What kind of rifle is this.....one you have smithed?
Ridiculous.
I do. The revolver is capable. Maybe not us but my groups at 500 meters ran 2-1/2" for 5 shots, cast boolits,many times. When I shot IHMSA I could run my Ruger SBH, production, open sights to 3/4" at 200 meters, Creedmore. I had vision and could focus both sights and the target. Now I am a few months from 78 so don't ask again!
You need to load right.151506 This is a 50 yard revolver group, now stretch to 100 yards. 151507
By the way BFR in .500 JRH, 440 gr boolit at 1350 fps. 151508 This is off hand at 100 with my SBH, old IHMSA gun, 330 gr boolit at 1316 fps. 3/4".
Both guns have 4 minute Ultra Dots on them.
Out of box guns. The revolver IS accurate.
Another thought, my SBH has over 80,000 heavy loads through it and uncounted light loads. It can still do that except for the loose nut behind it.
The limits with mine are me and my eyes today.
With a good scope I don't know what the limit is for a decent revolver.

[Whiterabbit]

Hi guys,



I don't want to start a fight about what number constitutes a good group at 100 yards with a scoped revolver.


Let's take the competitiveness to another thread. It's a topic that can be hashed out somewhere else.

[williamwaco]

You didn't mention the scope in your original post.

With a scope and sand bags, I can do 3 to 4 inches at 100 yards with a 4 to 6x scope from a revolver. About the same with the Thompson Contender.

I never trim cases.

[Whiterabbit]

do you think you could do 1-2 inches if you trimmed cases?

[BCgunworks]

Many have seen what we're doing with the franken Rugers. I strive for one Moa with those. But with a standard type wheel gun I accept up to 3 Moa.

I reload that ammo with as much precision as I would a bench rifle.
Pall brass is trimmed to the same length. That's a good idea so crimp pressure and bullet hold are the same.
I make sure all primer pockets are the same depth. Only have to check this once...

i charge all all my accuracy loads by weight.

When really being picky about groups I also sort my bullets.

accuracy is a systems approach. Everything has to be right.

[Love Life]

BCgunworks- Your inbox is full. I tried to send you a message.

[RogerDat]

Now I'm not a competitive shooter, I hit the soda can or paper plate all is good with my world but I would think given same OAL that different length brass would have a different amount of space behind the bullet. Lot gets written about pressure and its effect on burn, bullet expansion in the bore, etc. Seems like it could make a difference having more space, and it is a difference that could be eliminated by trimming and using the same head stamp. I know that 5.56 vs. .223 Remington they say back off the load by a bit for the 5.56 because it has less case capacity.

If trimming works fine you have a solution. If not no harm done. Now if the OP is saying all the brass starts out the same but some ends up a good deal longer I'm just going to sit back and let more knowledgeable folks come up with why that might happen.
:coffee:

[daniel lawecki]

As a 100 yard shooter I read and sorted thru a lot of post here. Jim has a lot of good sound advice to read and learn. All my shooting is now down at 100 yards. I use to use RCBS dies on my loads but have switch to Hornady dies after reading Jims post. I've been reloading and shooting cast boolits since 1979. I don't post a lot here but there is sound advice from many here. Lube Primers Tension and Bullet fit and Alloy will determine your group size if your up to shooting and reloading for what works in your gun.

[TCLouis]

May be old info, did not read all of the msgs in the thread to here, but as someone started down the trail to say up near the top of the thread;

First
With a revolver well situated to obtain the best groups
Shoot one shot on each of 6 targets
Repeat 5 times with the same chamber firing on the same target each time.
Now we know how precise the pistol is, what it and the chosen load is capable of, and what dispersion is the "fault" of the revolver/load.
Always fire the most precise chamber first after this, or the 2nd best if it is just before the most precise shooting chamber.

I can always tell a good load out of my Super Redhawk. There will be one enlarged circle/hole and another single one round hit 1" away. I start with that chamber under the hammer.

For a rifle I will steal advice from Jack OConner . . .
He was asked what was the proper number of shots to prove a rifles capabilities . . .

3 shots, 4, 5, 10.

His answer was pretty simple but hard for many to do
5, 1 shot groups shot at different times
After all that is how we hunt.

All this advice stolen from others over the years, but has served me well.

One last tidbit that seems to be especially true

Plinker603 had this tagline years ago . . . "Aim small hit small"!

I use clay pigeons at 50 or 100 to force this issue.

No more than I have shot a pistol/revolver the last couple of years one would likely be safe at 25.

[Thumbcocker]

Some years ago Ross Siefried did an article on a MOA revolver group. He solicited input from his readers and reported that several people contacted him about getting 1" 100 yard groups with revolvers. IIRC many had been fire lapped. His groups were qbout the size of a postage stamp.

[dubber123]

Some years ago Ross Siefried did an article on a MOA revolver group. He solicited input from his readers and reported that several people contacted him about getting 1" 100 yard groups with revolvers. IIRC many had been fire lapped. His groups were qbout the size of a postage stamp.

I remember that article, and I believe he said ALL had been firelapped. Something to think about there ;) He said he never believed it, but accounts from very reputable sources kept coming in. Several brands were mentioned, Dan Wesson, S&W, and Freedom Arms. All claimed to use full power loadings, no powder puffs.

He had a custom .45 Colt Ruger BH with a Douglas barrel blank built, but it came with 2 out of alignment chambers. He had to load 3, shoot, reload 2 and shoot 2 more. That makes it extra hard to do in my experience. He did eventually shoot postage stamp sized groups. It was a .45 Colt with heavy, LBT boolits and they were full tilt loadings.

[Saltner]

Very interesting to try shooting at these distances, unfortunately in Italy there is the culture that you have in the US, you can not go hunting with pistols and revolvers, unfortunately this is in Italian law.
It is not even considered the muzzle-loading hunting, you rarely see some lovers using some ancient weapon or replica muzzle loading polygon.
Turning to the subject, i tried to shoot at 55 yards with a H&K Mark 23 in 45 ACP with the classic 200 SWC ...
I was stunned by the accuracy!
151656

This is 15 shots at 27 yards, too bad for the flyerThis rather have 15 shots at 23 yards, too bad for the flyer
151657

I believe that handguns may to compete.

[44man]

Now I'm not a competitive shooter, I hit the soda can or paper plate all is good with my world but I would think given same OAL that different length brass would have a different amount of space behind the bullet. Lot gets written about pressure and its effect on burn, bullet expansion in the bore, etc. Seems like it could make a difference having more space, and it is a difference that could be eliminated by trimming and using the same head stamp. I know that 5.56 vs. .223 Remington they say back off the load by a bit for the 5.56 because it has less case capacity.

If trimming works fine you have a solution. If not no harm done. Now if the OP is saying all the brass starts out the same but some ends up a good deal longer I'm just going to sit back and let more knowledgeable folks come up with why that might happen.
:coffee:
There will not be more space unless you adjust the die. The most important thing is even case tension, the crimp has very little affect unless the case is so long it jambs into the throat. I made hundreds of crimp tests over the years and found nothing of value.
If I had a case a few thou too long, the edge would be a few thou ahead of others is all. How it holds does not change much at all.

[44man]

Some years ago Ross Siefried did an article on a MOA revolver group. He solicited input from his readers and reported that several people contacted him about getting 1" 100 yard groups with revolvers. IIRC many had been fire lapped. His groups were qbout the size of a postage stamp.
I had that and it was taken to the limits of parts and cost.
I have shot many, many groups down to 1/2" with BFR revolvers at 100. Not all the time, mind you but enough to know. I don't like paper targets so I shoot cans or plastic bottles of water and many times if you lay all the bottles side by side, holes are exact from one to another.

[ole 5 hole group]

In rifle benchrest I've shot several 0.102's & 0.103's and left a little money with the scorers when I challenged the group but they were measured correctly so they took my money for the insult. Never did earn a screamer patch, which is 0.099 or smaller in a registered match. I've got a couple rifles capable of zero groups but I'm not that capable for 5 consecutive shots at 100 yards. Tried real hard too.

Now shooting competitive 2700 - I could shoot 3 inch and smaller groups off-hand in 10 seconds firing 5-rounds all day long at 25 yards but so could anyone else ranked an expert or higher - that's basically a score of 100 with several X's. Now shooting off-hand at 50 yards, that separated the men from the boys and there's not many in this world that can keep 30 rounds in a 3.3" diameter at 50 yards fairly consistently - I know I never could and I would practice 6 days a week and shoot a match on the 7th day - I kept this up for several years until my vision went and back then, optics wasn't an option.

One can talk about reloading all day long, but you never saw a Service guy or gal ever shooting reloads, as they shot factory match. Ya, I know they test all ammo coming off the line at the factory when they change out their tooling and those lots found within their specs for their 1911's are all taken up by the different branches. So, if one has deep pockets I suppose they could find some perfect ammo. My friends and I scrounged lead, cast and reloaded using a Starr progressive for years and we thought we made the finest match ammo on the planet - probably did too but we just couldn't shoot up to the pistol and ammo capabilities. Never shot a double charge of bullseye in a match but shot a few in practice.:-o Took us a while to realize when we ran out of primers and backed the plate up, we needed to dump the power out of the following case - but we did figure that out.

One doesn't get the opportunity very often to shoot with a high master or against one but when you do, you will appreciate the dedication this person has put into his shooting game but I doubt many, if any, could shoot bug-hole groups at 500 meters with a handgun. Speaking for myself, I probably would have trouble keeping 10-rounds in a bushel basket at 500 meters rested off a solid bench.;) With a scope, I might be able to keep them all in a bushel basket if it was a big one. When hunting with a handgun you just need a little luck - you probably need luck just to see one, a little more luck to see him within 100 yards standing still, a little more to get him broadside and just a tad more to place your shot where you actually intended it to go. Without a little luck you still get the chance to get out and enjoy Nature and either bask in the sun or freeze your **** off while enjoying Nature.

I know I didn't help anyone out here but to answer the trimming question - No, I don't trim and I've never seen a handgun cartridge lengthen - I've seen them shorten but as of this date, never seen any lengthen.

[paul h]

An very accurate revolver scoped from the bench will put a cylinder full into 2" at 100 yds, an exceptional revolver will group 1". I've shot 2" groups at 100, with cast bullets and untrimmed brass. The gun is a factory Ruger SRH 480, 2.5-7 scope. My buddies 480 had identical accuracy. He used to shoot IHMSA and once fired a 1" group at 100 yds with irons from the bench.

But the op asked about shooting off hand at 100 yds. That is much more about the shooter than the gun, though a good gun and ammo is needed for sure. The reason to start with a scope off the bench is to work up your loads to find your guns sweet spot, and then once you know how good your gun can do, then you can find out what you can do.

Conversely I've had a badly choked Ruger blackhawk that at it's best off the bench would group 8" at 50 yds. So no matter how well I could shoot, the gun was holding me back.

Revolvers can shoot much more accurately than most give them credit for. The key is putting in the time finding a good one, working up loads, and mastering it.

[Whiterabbit]

well, no difference, trimmed or untrimmed.

http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/17369d38e20e4b50578dd06bfc902ed4

Top target is 50 yards. <2.5 inches. bottom is 100 yards. Almost 8". Not sure I'm quite there for a 100 yard hunting gun (unless you set up a shooting bench 100 yards away from the animal I am about to shoot.....)

Frankly, not sure where to go from here. I have a gun that can't miss at 50 yards, but if I wanted a 50 yard gun I wouldn't need something with a scope and 5 lb of steel in it and a case that holds 50 grains of powder.

Not happy with the state of CA. My cast lead 425 grain ranchdogs don't have this issue. But can't hunt with lead. shooting 45 cal barnes in a 16" twist is NOT easy.

[williamwaco]

do you think you could do 1-2 inches if you trimmed cases?


No. Makes no noticeable difference.

[44MAG#1]

I'll say this, if you are good enough shooting from field positions, not bench rest, that you can tell the difference between trimmed and untrimmed brass, within safety perameters, you are one heck of a shot and need a job being an exhibition shooter for one of the major gun makers.

[ErnieBishop]

I was curious about what was going to be said about 100 yard group shooting...Some really good stuff and then some great entertainment.
Many 2.5" groups with a wheelgun shooting cast at 500 yards with iron sights????:kidding::kidding::kidding:
Might as well go to Williamsburg or Deepcreek and be competitive at 600 yards in LG, If you just used a decent scope of course[smilie=w::popcorn:


I do. The revolver is capable. Maybe not us but my groups at 500 meters ran 2-1/2" for 5 shots, cast boolits,many times....With a good scope I don't know what the limit is for a decent revolver.

[Whiterabbit]

I just have no idea why I cannot shoot 5 inches at 100 when the load clearly shows capability of <2.5 at 50. My cast lead load does not have this issue.

[ErnieBishop]

It is more difficult for most folks that can hold 2.5" at 50 to then shoot a 5" group at 100 yards.
The further you go the more difficult it becomes with both irons and optics.
Just because I can shoot a 5-shot 1/2" group fairly often at 100 yards with one of my specialty pistols does NOT mean I should expect a 5-shot 5" group at 1000 yards

[dubber123]

It is more difficult for most folks that can hold 2.5" at 50 to then shoot a 5" group at 100 yards.
The further you go the more difficult it becomes with both irons and optics.
Just because I can shoot a 5-shot 1/2" group fairly often at 100 yards with one of my specialty pistols does NOT mean I should expect a 5-shot 5" group at 1000 yards

Yep. I am far from Ernies level, but I can tell you 50 yards is WAY harder than 25, and 100 is WAY harder than 50.

I suspect a bullet/boolit issue. I cite the fact wadcutters generally shoot excellently at 25 yards. but are clearly going the other way by 50. I tried really hard a few years back to get the groups I wanted at 50 with wadcutters in .38 Spl., but once I found other designs would beat them with ease, I gave up. I still shoot wadcutters for 25 yd. pistol practice, but don't bother once I want to shoot 50 yds. or more. You may be having a similar issue.

[Whiterabbit]

Strong indicator this gun may need to get sold. If it can't connect at 100 yards, may as well step down in power and carry less weight and abuse.

[ole 5 hole group]

Whiterabbit - If you can shoot that handgun consistently into 2.5 inch groups at 50 yards, I think it would be a big mistake selling it. Do you have other handguns that you can consistently group 5 shots into 5 inches at 100 yards? I ask because gun handling is extremely important when one is shooting at that range. Much like a benchrester shooting in the 0.1's at 100 and at 300 yards he can keep 3 maybe 4 into a group under an inch but one or two shots will open that group up considerably - just a little more/less pressure here or there, squeezed that 2 ounce trigger a little differently etc - that's all it takes but as far as the shooter is concerned - he called the shot good.

I would say that if your handgun likes the powder and bullet at 50 yards, I doubt everything would go to hell in another 50 yards, as your twist rate shouldn't come into play that quick but if it would by chance, then maybe you need to up the velocity a tad. If you know you're doing everything consistent from shot to shot, then I have no clue but I would hazard a guess your grip changes a tad maybe due to recoil or you concentrate on your X-hair so much that you ease up on your grip unconsciously - then there's that rest thing.

8" at 100 yards will put meat in the freezer until you solve the problem and get the 50 yard group down to a consistent 2"s and the 100 yard group down to 4 to 6 inches - might take a little time, effort and a lot of gun powder.;-) Good luck in your quest.

[Snyd]

Here's a great thread on 100yds with iron sights http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/14733/100-yards-iron-sights

I'm still working on 100yd shooting and am still using a 2X scope. But I have found a couple loads in this gun that are very capable.

I do trim by brass to the same length to get consistent crimp, not sure if it matters. Consistent grip and trigger pull probably matter more. I don't sort boolits or brass by weight. I reamed the throats to .4525 and cut the forcing cone to 11 degrees and have smoothed up the trigger.

With this setup I can hit my 4 inch steel off hand at 50yds shot after shot, kneeling, leaning or other field postions out to about 75ish. Beyond that out to 117 (ranged) a wrist rest or resting gun frame. One of these days I'll take the scope off and see what I can do.

Here are a few sample targets I've kept over the last few years.


50yds 355gr gc wfn, water dropped WW, 1200fps

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/BisHunter/sbh_355_03.jpg

1st two shots on left then settled in for the last 3. These were the last 5rnds I had this day otherwise I'd have shot 6.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/BisHunter/100ydSBH_02.jpg

This load is the plane ol' Lee 255gr plane base, air cooled wheel weights over H110. This was the first of 3 loads one day of testing this boolit as a Ruger Only load. Previously I've just shot this over 8.5gr Unique as a plinkin round.

1439fps

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/BisHunter/255_H110_02_zps07bf2096.jpg

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/BisHunter/255_H110_01_zpsbe0353db.jpg

[ErnieBishop]

Good shooting

[dvnv]

Whiterabbit:

I'll guess you aren't the 100 yd problem. What .45 copper bullet are you trying? What load/gun? I had to work up an all copper 454 load for CA hunting.

[Whiterabbit]

BFR 460, 200 grain XPB in a 1 in 16 twist. had to contact Barnes about the best bullet, I've tried them all with H110 (even the .451 muzzleloading bullets), no good past 50. Barnes suggested this was a challenge for contender shooters also, that they use the 200 grain XPB for their 1 in 16 twist guns. So that's where I settled. They suggested Longshot if H110 didn't work. Tried 20-27 grains, tightened up at 25 before loosening, so stuck with 25 grains. Shoots fine at 50 yards. Bullet speed is ~2000 fps.

[dvnv]

Have you ever tried the 250s? They work for me.

oops, I see you have tried them all...how about the 250s a little slower?

[Whiterabbit]

to be fair, I have only "tried everything" with H110, as that was the "go-to" powder. Barnes 200, 250, 275, 290 flat base, and 290 boat tail. I did not try the 225 grain 45 colt, the 250 grain muzzleloader bullets, and this testing predates the 200 grain "45 colt only" bullet as well.

When I told Barnes this, that's when they suggested longshot and that contender users have the most luck with the 200 grain bullets.

So, haven;t tried the flat nosed hollowpointed 250 grain bullets with longshot or any slower-speed powders.



Imagine how much lead I could have bought for all the money gone into trying these bullets.

[Snyd]

How about some brass alloy? Spendy but.....

http://beltmountain.com/punch.htm

[dvnv]

I'd try the 250's a couple of hundred fps slower...

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't trim handgun brass and I don't clean primer pockets. Never saw a bit of accuracy gain from either. Ive shot matches with untrimmed mixed headstamp brass and brought home trophys.