Has any one ever split a shot gun barrel shooting round balls

[Ernest]

I guess the title says it all. I have picked up an old ball and shot gun called the Ubique. It is not rifled but is built for shooting shot and full 12 gauge size round balls round balls. I am gathering the material to shoot the gun but don't want to damage it in any way.

[FullTang]

Shooting a solid ball won't really stress the barrel any more than a similar load of shot, as long as the ball fits through the barrel (and any choke.) That's easy enough to determine, but the real question is what kind of load the gun was originally designed to shoot. If it's really old, then you need to be thinking about black powder. Modern guns are almost impossible to destroy without a barrel obstruction (notice I said almost!), but this is not necessarily true for older guns made of older steel (think of the Titanic here), especially if you load an old black powder gun with modern smokeless powder.

[Outpost75]

I split an H&R .410 firing round balls in it, the gun recoilled forwards and the muzzle split open like the hood of a cobra when the ball wouldn't go through the choke. I cut off the muzzle behind split and recrowned it and I now have a .427 cylinder bore .44/.410 snake gun.

[Whiterabbit]

I suggest SOFT lead. I cast some 58 cal roundballs from hardball and from nearly pure lead. "snug" fit in a wad (you could turn it upside down gently, but shake and the ball falls out) and into my 20ga handi slug gun.

The soft came out and left the wads ok, but the hard cast left wads with missing petals. Maybe that's OK, but I got a little paranoid and decided to stick with soft lead for all shotgun work.

[Cap'n Morgan]

If the gun is made for shooting round balls it probably has a rear sight? Just remember not to use any form of over-disc if using roll crimp.

[BAGTIC]

How did a .410 shotgun come to have a .427 bore?

[Outpost75]

How did a .410 shotgun come to have a .427 bore?

That's what it measures when H&R built it about 1910, marked ".44/12mm/.410"-2-1/2"

[FullTang]

That's what it measures when H&R built it about 1910, marked ".44/12mm/.410"-2-1/2"

Which gets back to what I was saying about the Titanic---metallurgy wasn't the same in 1910 as it's been since WWII. But I think it's pretty awesome that after blowing the gun up, you cut the barrel down and kept shooting it!

[Outpost75]

Oh yeah! But the barrel I use MOST for it is a .44-40 which I had John Taylor fit up and chamber for it!
MUCH better than shooting shooting .433 Speer round balls through the .410 barrel!

151480 151481151482151483

[FullTang]

Nice! Is that a companion piece for a .44-40 revolver? Peep sights are nice, too.

[Hardcast416taylor]

A smart acker and a few brews later ruined a Winchester Model 59 shot barrel by putting the barrel in a stream to shoot carp! The Model 59 had a nylon string wrapped barrel to make it light weight. I heard the barrel looked like a fishing reel with a bad cast happening. The guy just got a stunned look on his face from this stupid stunt. What his Dad said about this is unprintable.Robert

[Outpost75]

Nice! Is that a companion piece for a .44-40 revolver? Peep sights are nice, too.

Of course! SEVERAL of them....151527

[Ernest]

Out post 75 thanks for the reply. This is an old Ubique made by Tolley. It has rear sight and the advertizement/brochure of the time says it is made to shoot a full size 12 gauge ball. Using plug gauges the barrel tapers quickly to .723 +/_ .001 at the breech and then drops to .720 at the muzzle.

The problem is that only RB mold I can get my hands on cast a .732-.734 ball. I have tapped one of the dead soft balls thru the bores and it doesn't take much force to get it through. I would not worry about a .729 ball but I am alittle worried about going from .734 to ..720 or 14 thousands swage???.

Does any one know where I can get a .729 mold from. I tried Jeff TAnner in England. He uses pay pay and I tried to set that up but I couldn't get the payment to go through. :-|.

[Ernest]

well good news . got my order to Jeff to go through should have a mold in 7 to 10 days. I hope hope I can get the old girl up and running by Dec. I would really like to try to shoot a deer with it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Tolley made more than one kind of Ubique gun. The smoothbore version had a recess choke, with the muzzle little or no narrower than most of the bore, and did indeed give pretty good results with round ball or shot alike. Tolley claimed that it would give the performance of a shotgun and of a rifle, and it probably came very close, as long as you are talking ranges of up to forty yards or so. But in Indian jungles you could do a lot of shooting without exceeding that. The books of Jim Corbett, the hunter of maneaters, are fascinating, and very often describe shots and cine film taken from much closer. They also claimed that the 8ga Ubique was about three pounds lighter than most double rifles in that caliber and yet hit with more power. True with a "but" again, I should think. It could achieve greater velocity, without the resistance of rifling and with less risk of leading or stripping. But the recoil would be extremely severe with such loads.

They were designed to give a tight fit for the ball, but I am sure that didn't mean tight enough to swage a belt around it. I wouldn't derive any security from the ball being soft. Water is soft enough to stick your finger into, but behaves quite differently if you hit it at high speed. Shotgun barrels, unless impaired in some way or built more flimsily than Tolley (renowned for their heavy waterfowl guns) were likely to do, seldom burst from overpressure or from the impact of lead and choke. It is due to the buildup of a pressure wave, catching up with a bullet which is slowed in its course, and that can happen with the softest lead or a charge of small shot.

But Tolley also built a different kind of Ubique gun, following the practice of others by rifling a rather long choke at the muzzle. This is the principle others termed the Paradox gun, and dates it to after Col. Fosbery's invention of 1886. I have heard it said that this choke was difficult to see, which means it could be extremely shallow or extremely rounded rifling. That wouldn't be a recessed choke, which would defeat the intention. They were proved as rifles. They were often said to give as good a shot pattern as a smoothbore, which I would guess to mean regular but a little wide, due to centrifugal force.

To add another complication, rifled-choke guns have lived through many decades during which big game was being shot less than formerly, and rifles required to be licensed and registered, but shotguns didn't. So it is possible that the rifling may have been removed. If a smoothbore were cylinder bored or close to it without a recess, I would suspect this.

In the circles these guns moved in, the name would have been recognized as the motto of the Royal Artillery, which doesn't carry regimental colours, on which other regiments wrote the names of battles awarded as battle honours. So King William IV awarded them the single battle honour "Ubique", which is Latin for "Everywhere".

[Ernest]

Ballistic's in Scotland thank you very much for the very informative reply. I also have an older 10 gauge under lever hammered gun that by proof marks was originally a rifled choke gun. It is now smooth bored. I suppose that it may have been reamed to smooth bore because of stupid laws. If so that is sad. If I remember correctly it was reproofed later in it's life. Of course all this is supposition. A person who is an expert in the field of ball and shot guns said it may have been sent back to tolley for the change because the recoil with the full bulleted load was extreme.
All in all thanks for all the replies. I have been given advice that the correct ball diameter is .735 but I am going to start with a .729 ball just to be safe.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That would be sad, all right, but it is just as likely to have been done because someone wanted an ordinary shotgun. They were really colonial guns, excellent for lion, but of little use in the UK. Our red deer has sometimes been considered the same species as the American elk, and could no doubt form fertile hybrids. The few which remain in woodland areas are nearly as big. But most shooting takes place in barren mountains which were denuded of forests in the Middle Ages. It is an expensive and exclusive sport, where an intruder can ruin someone's day-long stalk a mile away, shots were long by Express rifle standards, and the deer aren't really 10ga size.

While these guns generally delivered a pretty fair pattern, it is unlikely to have been the best for most purposes. The rifling was designed to minimize deformation of the pellets on the outside of the charge, and therefore "flyers" outside the main pattern. (Shot cup wads or sleeves were almost unknown in those days.) But this probably did happen to some extent, and there was very likely a tendency to deposit lead in the rifled area. There is a big difference between getting a trace of leading from one shot at your lion, or a hundred traces shooting driven pheasants, and the lighter Paradoxes were otherwise very acceptable for the latter.

The pattern would also be widened by centrifugal force. Indeed the French have made, and I think still do, shallow rifled shotguns for this purpose, to be used for rabbits in dense cover, where ranges are always very short. One myth is that shooting shot with a rifled bore produces a "doughnut" pattern, with a hole in the middle. On the rare occasions when this happens, it is due to shot deformity deep into the charge. For the pellets in the centre aren't spinning at all, and as you move outwards they are spinning in a spiral of differing radius.

[Ernest]

interesting thing about the 12 gauge ubique I have is that it has a plaque on the but stock that it was a gift to
PRESENTED TO
THE
Rev d C. PRICE M.A.
BY THE
Parishioners of Mcesler ( best I can read it)
Feb 28th 1897


On his transfer to a parish in India. The old girl may just have a tale or two to tell.. I won't be shooting a tiger but I would like to harvest a few quail , doves and a deer for the pot with her.

[longbow]

Not that there is anything wrong with your choice of 0.729" ball but I have shot many 0.735" balls cast from range scrap (basically wheelweights or maybe slightly softer) with no problems.

Like you, I was wondering about safety when a 0.735"/0.736" round ball hit the 0.729" bore after the forcing cone and like you I also did a "tap through" using a wooden dowel and hard cast lead Ball. It went through so easily I ceased worrying and loaded up.

The load I used as my basis for the load was a pressure tested load published by Precision Rifle for their full bore PileDriver slug that weighed 610 grs. My logic is that the ball weighs 575 grs. so is lighter and even though over bore diameter, the amount of metal to swage on the equator is very small where engraving a full bore slug with long bearing surface requires much more metal to be moved.

In any case, the load worked well and I got very good accuracy from my smooth bore (cylinder bore of course) with no signs of pressure.

Recovered balls show a narrow "belt" around the equator and those shot from rifled gun showed clean sharp engraving. A success all around.

If you like shooting big 'ol round balls as much as I do you will be having some fun I am sure.

Longbow

[Ernest]

Thanks Longbow. I think I will try a .729 ball first since the barrel ends up at .720 and that will get me a 9 thou swage. If I don't get the accuracy I am looking for I will go to the .735 ball.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The main thing is that the belt is narrow, which should be fine. I would prefer pure lead to range scrap, though, unless it tests as pretty soft.


Price is a Welsh name, although nowadays plenty of people who never thought of themselves as anything but English have it. "Mchesler" would be Manchester, to which a lot of Welsh people migrated in the nineteenth century.

[Driver man]

"That would be sad, all right, but it is just as likely to have been done because someone wanted an ordinary shotgun. They were really colonial guns, excellent for lion, but of little use in the UK. Our red deer has sometimes been considered the same species as the American elk, and could no doubt form fertile hybrids. The few which remain in woodland areas are nearly as big. But most shooting takes place in barren mountains which were denuded of forests in the Middle Ages. It is an expensive and exclusive sport, where an intruder can ruin someone's day-long stalk a mile away, shots were long by Express rifle standards, and the deer aren't really 10ga size."

In New Zealand we have both red deer and American Elk (we call them Wapiti} The red deer were introduced from the highlands of Scotland and grow to large size , up to 500 lb . We have very large Elk that can exceed 1000 lb, introduced as a gift from president Roosevelt and we have very large hybrids of the two, so yes they do interbreed. They also make good eating and hunting of which we do year round no restrictions at all.

[longbow]

Yeah, 0.720 might be a bit much for a hard 0.735" ball... or even a soft one. I find the 0.005"/0.006" squeeze no problem but my bore diameters run 0.729"/0.730" and no choke.

A hollow base Foster slug would be no problem there but I agree that a smaller ball than 0.735" would be a better choice in your case. In fact if the bore tapers to 0.720" at the muzzle you might want to go with a ball of about 0.725". I wouldn't worry about 0.003" to 0.005" but much more than that makes me nervous without pressure testing.

Longbow

[Ernest]

well I got the tanner mold in .729 today. I will be using pure plumbers lead that tests at 8 on our gauge. I hope that this week end I can give it a try ..

[Ernest]

well tears....
I finally got all the accouterments together to shoot the 12 gauge.
The first load
Cheddite new paper hulls trimmed to 2.6
.729 round ball cast out of plumbers lead that test at 8 on the hardness tester
unique powder 21.5
2 hard card wads and a soft felt wad .
roll crimp. a
Friday I didn't have time to set up the chronograph but on firing I could tell the velocity was low. I only had time to shoot two shots at 50 yrds . Lateral dispersion was about 4 inches but the vertical dispersion was 18 inches.
Saturday evening: I changed the load by increasing the powder charge of unique to 24.5 and substituting a federal plastic wad with pedals removed + 1 1/2 hard card wad and a roll crimp.

[Ernest]

This load obviously had more recoil than load number one and the first shot hit directly over the sight at 50 yrds. [smilie=w:. then the second shot hit 5 inches higher. Ok. then the tired jumped up 18 inches:violin:. There was still a lot of unburned powder in the barrel. Oh well.

I'm not sure what the next step should be ???

[Ballistics in Scotland]

One thing worth a look would be an undeformed ball recovered from the backstop, or even better, a few of them. Do they have an even belt all the way around, like when you push them through? If not it might be that they are a loose fit in the case. although paper should be better that way than for plastic or brass.

The number of shots you have fired isn't enough to give certain information, but it sounds like something is preventing it from giving the four or five inches at fifty yards (not bad for a smoothbore) of which it ought to be capable. The usual rule is that the bullet produces about equal dispersion in all directions, inconsistency in the charge or ignition produces differences in bullet drop at long range, and something wrong with the firearm produces dispersion in one particular direction. As bullet drop can't vary more than the bullet drops, it sounds like the bullet or the gun.

You shouldn't be leaning the barrels on a rest, especially a hard one. It is also worth seeing whether the forend latch will let you sandwich a tight piece of cardboard, leather or foam plastic between forend and barrels. You don't say which barrels produced those points of impact, but it is possible someone built stress or distortion into the barrels while relaying a loose rib.

[longbow]

I'd say 21.5 grs. Unique is a bit light so maybe not enough pressure to get complete burn. With plastic wad/gas seal and 24.5 grs. though it should be in the ballpark though.

My BPI reloading bulletin sheet shows 2 3/4" Cheddite hull with 27 grs. Unique under a BPI plastic wad and 0.690" ball giving 8500 PSI. Your 0.729" ball will be a little heavier.

If your first load didn't have a plastic gas seal that may explain low velocity. There is a lot of leakage past nitro card wads compared to plastic gas seals in my experience.

However, your second load should have performed better... at least combustion wise.

Did you recover any wads? Recovered wads can tell a story. I found many with blown gas seals before I started using nitro card wads and COW under the ball. Accuracy improved considerably with the addition.

Also, as BIS pointed out, recovered balls can also tell a story. They should have nice even "belts" around the equator. Shoot some into sand or some relatively soft media to recover them for examination. Water would be good but round balls that size tend to go through a lot of water jugs.

BIS also brought up another good point. You said your bore tapered to 0.720" but if the ball is loose in the hull and breech end of bore is close to ball size, the ball may be picking up a spin as it leaves the hulls and hits the forcing cone. That could leave an uneven "belt" and cause bore centering and flight issues.

I have recovered 0.735" round balls shot from my 0.730" bore that showed quite uneven belts indicating roll when entering the bore.

A scoop of COW under the ball may help stop that if it is occurring.

As for powder, I have used Blue Dot successfully under round balls of down to 1 oz. so Unique should certainly work if all else is right.

Is the gun tight? If it is sloppy at the hinge then that could also explain a few things.

Longbow

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Deformation of the ball due to hitting the forcing cone off-center is a distinct possibility. But I can't see it becoming capable of a continuing rolling motion down the bore, with the combination of bore and ball diameters you describe. If it did, it would most likely roll on the bottom of the bore, which would give those 18in. fliers a downward motion, not upward.

When a ball leaves the muzzle with a rolling motion, the apparent airspeed and air pressure are increased on the side which is moving forwards, and are reduced on the side which is moving backward. The ball is deflected in the direction of the surface it recently contacted, to the right if it rolled on the right-hand side, and downwards if it rolled on the bottom. Gravity being what it is, the latter would usually be the case, and continued testing is unlikely to show consistent rolling on the top of the bore.

I can see two kinds of problem with traditional wads. The gases can pass around card, and through felt or similar fibre. The solution with shot charges was to roll the edge of a thick felt wad in greasy or waxy lube and sandwich it between two card discs. But when you use a ball, the pressure tends to change the wads from flat to cup-shaped, and the gases will find their way around. One solution is to use a smaller ball, which is a close fit inside the conventional plastic shot-cup wad. But it would really hurt to buy another mould so soon, and maybe you want to solve this problem by means the makers of the Ubique gun knew. Assuming it hasn't been altered, it is surely possible.

Cream of wheat may work, but it is compressible to some extent. Making the wad column considerably longer than usual may also help, since the ball is shorter than the same weight in shot. I've got a lathe, so I might try a softwood spacer, cup-shaped at the front and flat at the rear. But you could probably make a device in non-gluable plastic to mould them from five-minute epoxy and sawdust.

[longbow]

I doubt an over bore size ball would roll down the barrel but certainly I have recovered some 0.735" balls that showed they were spinning when they hit the bore as the "belt" is skewed. That will leave a distorted surface which would tend to cause uneven drag and induced spin resulting in a "curve" ball type trajectory. Or at least I think it would have a tendency to and result in unpredictable trajectories.

Now for undersize balls like 0.690" I have lots of experience with inaccuracy using those naked in everything from bolt action, single shot, pump gun and side by muzzleoading shotgun. Not sure which side of the barrel they roll on but I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from inside with them. I tried and lost! Yes, I can be a slow learner. A simple donut wad may have made a big difference but I was too simple to think of a simple donut wad back then. Nowadays I have ball moulds that cast balls for use in shotcups or moulds for larger bore size balls and both work well so I have not revisited the 0.690" ball.

Longbow

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I doubt an over bore size ball would roll down the barrel but certainly I have recovered some 0.735" balls that showed they were spinning when they hit the bore as the "belt" is skewed. That will leave a distorted surface which would tend to cause uneven drag and induced spin resulting in a "curve" ball type trajectory. Or at least I think it would have a tendency to and result in unpredictable trajectories.

Yes, that is the distinction I was trying to make. That skewed belt could be enough to start it rolling in the air after leaving the muzzle, and perhaps would make the jet effect on exit asymmetrical.

[Cap'n Morgan]

When a ball leaves the muzzle with a rolling motion, the apparent airspeed and air pressure are increased on the side which is moving forwards, and are reduced on the side which is moving backward.

That is the Magnus effect at work. Here's a video which shows just how much effect spinning can have on a round object - in this case a basketball:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtP_bh2lMXc

No wonder round balls and shot patterns go south after some fifty yards!

[BAGTIC]

That's what it measures when H&R built it about 1910, marked ".44/12mm/.410"-2-1/2"

That may be because the .410 is alleged to have originated as a .44/40 shot load and the 44/40 used a .427 bullet. Makes me wonder if H&R ever made .44/40 firearms (rifle or shot).

[Ernest]

Thank you for the replies, especially Long Bow and Ballistics in Scotland. I am always amazed at the depth of knowledge on this site.

Well progress was made. Looking at the old Tolley catalogs I noticed that the 12 gauge smooth bore called for a 4 dram load. Looking in Graeme Wright's 3rd addition ( what would we do with out Graeme's book?) I found a pressure tested 3.2 ton load with a 2 1/2 inch shell with a 740 grain conical with unique/ universal/ ap-70 at 27 grains. Since the round ball weighs about 580 , about a 160 grains less I assume I could go that high safely.

To make a long story short starting at 24.5 grains and working up with the .729 ball showed minor improvement but Tolley advertised 10 shots in a 6 inch square with either barrel at 50 yrds. and I wasn't close to that. I bit the bullet and started loading the .735 ball, working back up the powder charge. At 26.5 unique with a heavy roll crimp With the right barrel I got 4 shots inside the magic 6 inches. I was tired. Recoil was brisk out of a very light 12 gauge. Velocity was very consistent at almost 1200 fps and I declared victory.

The remaining problem is that the sight is marked 50yrds but at that range the gun shoots 10 inches high. As velocity went up the group centers became lower. I have to think that since a 4 dram load with a 1 3/8 oz load calls for 1350 fps that if I had been willing to push velocities higher , possibly with blue dot , I might have brought the group just over the front sight. I am not ready to stress a 118 year old gun that much. recoil at that level would be startling and even at 1200 I wasn't having any fun shooting it so I think I'm pretty satisfied with the progress made with every one's help.

[Ernest]

Well I had a chance to get out and try the Ubique again yesterday evening. Again the first shot with the right and left barrel hit just over the front sight at 50 yrds.This is what I will call the regulation load.

Cheddite new paper primed case
Unique 26.5 grains
Federal 12S3 wad with pedals removed
one BPI soft felt was to cushion ball and fill the case
.735 RB cast in Lyman mold out of plumbers lead. It tests 8 on our hardness tester.
The ball is lubed by rolling in straight alox and allowed to dry.
Heavy roll crimp.
The velocity is very consistent right at 1150 in the right and left barrels

lessons learned so far.

accuracy is better with the .735 ball.
as velocity goes up the POI goes down and velocity has to be over 1100 to hit close to the sights at 50 yards. At a velocity of 950 fps the gun shoots 18 inches high at 50 yards
lateral spread is very consistent regardless of the load.
vertical spread is very dependent on velocity and barrel condition.
there is some leading with this load and the POI goes up as successive shots are fired.
The barrels are not regulated the right shoots to the right and the left shoots to the left.
recoil energy at this lever is 36 ft/lbs
I'm out of my reloading league with these ball and shot guns. I think I will stick with the modern guns and ammo from now on.


I think the next step will be to try to have some of the ammo pressure tested.
Does any one have suggestions about how I might stop the barrel leading.
Thanks again for all the suggestions.

[longbow]

I suggest trying a hard card wad column with a plastic gas seal over the powder. I found that with my smoothbores the plastic wads tend to try to wrap around the ball and often fail be cracking or blowing a gas seal. So if using a cushion leg I use at least one nitro card wad under the ball, and that is for balls that fit into shotcups. I did not manage to get any decent accuracy using a cushion leg under a 0.735" round ball. Hard card wad column worked best for me in smoothbore and the same load shot well from a borrowed rifled gun.

My load was based off a load Precision Rifle published for their Piledriver slug which was full bore and 610 grs. They listed loads from 36 grs. of Blue Dot to 44 grs. Blue Dot and pressure of 12,500 PSI for the max. load. I found that recoil with powder charges over 38 gr. were a bit punishing so stuck with lower powder charges under the 0.735" balls. There was little guidance as to other components in that load except that the hull should be straight walled.

It won't likely solve the unregulated barrel issue but may improve accuracy from each barrel. If you try a hard card wad column using Unique, I suggest dropping the charge a few grains as the lack of cushion leg may result in a bit of a pressure spike.

As for leading, I have not had any trouble shooting naked balls in my smoothbore and I only shot about 15 rounds through the rifled gun but got no leading at all. Had leading been an issue, I would have tried a lubed felt wad in the wad column along with the tumble lube you are using.

Longbow

[Ernest]

I did find some of the plastic wads and they were blackened on one side and not on the other. I think that a lube wafer would be a good idea. But first I think , and this will take a while, I need to get the loads pressure tested.

[BAGTIC]

I use .735 and .615 RB in my 12 and 20 gauge guns. The alloy is basically HTWW which in pistol bullets measures about 22-24 BHN. I tumble lube them with JPW as much to prevent oxidation in storage as anything. They all come out with a small flattened belt. No damage to my barrels which run from cylinder to modified smooth bored and also rifled. A RB makes very little contact with the bore and normally produces less pressure than an equivalent weight of shot. I believe that most split muzzles in shotguns made of modern fluid steels are the result of bore obstructions such as mud, snow, ice, wasp nests, and lodged wads. I have an 12 gauge O/U what I purchased with bulged chokes caused by shooting steel shot. The bulging is quite visible on the outside but there is absolutely no indication of any incipient splitting. The chokes were merely expanded outward. Ironically even the modified choke, the tightest, still shoots better than standard modified patterns, about 3/4 choke, so the relieving may have actually improved the patterns.