Springfield Trapdoor 50-70

[The Ozzman]

Hey guys.

This is my first post here, I hope in the right section and by the rules.

I refer to a Springfield Trapdoor Rifle in 50-70, the actual trapdoor/breech is dated 1869, whilst the lock plate on the side is dated 1863. I am new to the trapdoor domain but I beleive this is an Allin conversion from a percussion rifle.

The outside has some surface pitting, dings, dents etc. The bore has well defined rifling, with some pitting throughout. Most of it looks fine based on my experience with pitting, however there is one smallish dark pit a bit smaller than a fingernail (but oblong) that I am not sure about.

I would like to be able to shoot this gun in time. I do not have a bore scope.

Running (gently) a Mosin cleaning rod down to the pit, the top of the cleaning rod snags slightly, but it's not like it sinks into a deep cavern.

This pit is about 20 inches along the barrel, so it's quite aways from the chamber.

The way I see it, I could try (blackpowder only) with caution. I could have the gun sleeved with a bore liner or I could have it modfied into a mock Trapdoor carbine. Upon recent enquiry with smiths, I have been infromed that most do not do re lining of guns anymore, perhaps lack of demand? Who knows.

So what should I do? I would eventually like to shoot this gun. I would be happy to learn how to paper patch in order to emeliorate leading issues.

So, thanks for having me and thanks in advance for any tips you may be able to offer.

[M-Tecs]

Lots still reline. John Taylor on this forum would be a good start. http://www.johntaylormachine.com/49.0.html

http://www.texas-mac.com/Relining_a_Springfield_Trapdoor_Barrel.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?161721-Relining-a-Springfield-Trapdoor-Barrel&highlight=T.J.'s%20liners

http://www.redmansrifling.com/liners.htm

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?73601-Simple-barrel-liner-project&highlight=T.J.'s%20liners

High Plains Reboring & Rerifling is another option.

Phone: (701) 448-9188Fax: (701) 448-9112243 14th Ave NW, Turtle Lake, ND 58575-9410 Send email to High Plains Reboring & Refifling
- See more at: http://www.bbb.org/minnesota/business-reviews/guns-and-gunsmiths/high-plains-reboring-and-refifling-in-turtle-lake-nd-96177160#sthash.OEBnNz3x.dpuf

[ndnchf]

It may shoot fine. Try it before going the reline route. Get the Lee 515-450 mold, it has large lube grooves and closely replicates the original bullet. Try them unsized with 2F black powder and SPG lube. That will give you a good starting point. I shoot a model 1868 trapdoor 50-70. This bullet works well.

[John Taylor]

You might try scrubbing the barrel with 0000 steel wool and fine oil. Now I'm going to catch plenty of flack for this but I have used it more than a few times on old barrels. If it does not help then you were probably in the market for a liner or new barrel.

[The Ozzman]

Thanks guys.

I should have specified; I am in Australia and smiths dont seem to work on these guns alot. Thanks for the input anyway M Tech.

I will give her a go with caution. I would rather not re line and I don't want or expect a tack driver.....minute of Apache or a dinner plate at 70m would make me happy.

Given there is plenty of rifling, I would think (correct me if I'm wrong) that experimentation with weights and types should give me somethign serviceable.

I will keep you all posted, great to be here guys!

Ndncheif and John Taylor; thanks for your time :-)

[The Ozzman]

151321151322

Guys I have uploaded these two photos I took just now. I have noticed on the lower left of the chamber lip there is a burred bit, just below the extractor/ejector.

I do not yet have a case to insert to see if it chambers. If it prevents the case from chambering, is gentle polishing an acceptable method of releiving this burr?

I read of people using a case with polishing compound on it, attached to a wooden dowel and drill run slowly to polish a dinged chamber. If it chambers okay I will leave it, but wont have a case for a few weeks.

Finding a good gunsmith is hard here, finding one interested in doing the work is another matter entirely.

Thanks in advance guys.

[StrawHat]

Here is the website for all things Trapdoor.

http://trapdoorcollector.com/

From the description and the mention of the date on the breechblock, it sounds like you have a Model 1868. If so, there should be two serial numbers, one on the breechblock and one on the barrel. The M1868 was the first of the trapdoors to have a breechblock machined to accept a separate barrel, unlike the earlier Models which had the surplus barrels machined to accept a breechblock. I have one of the earlier ones, Model 1866, and they are a good deal of fun to shoot.

Post some more photos when you get a chance.

Kevin

[The Ozzman]

Cheers Kevin.

That site is very cool. I will get some more photos tomorrow as I will be doing some work on it then. I cant wait to have it in shooting condition. Im going to make a chamber polishing device from dowel and emery paper, I read this elsewhere.

Hopefully that will smooth out the burr, as long as I go slow it should be okay, I would think.

Very very interesting pieces of history! Really loving it, and all the more satisfying that I am putting her back in action.

Cheerio.

[cold1]

You may want to try paper patching of the boolit also. It has helped a trapdoor 4570 I have. it shoots tighter groups with the patch.

[ndnchf]

I agree that it looks like yours is a Model 1868. I believe Strawhat meant to say the M1868 was the first to have a separate machined breech (not breechblock). A separate breechblock is an integral part of all Springfield Trapdoors. Here is a photo of my 1866 and 1868 for comparison. You can see the serial number on the 1868 on the breech and barrel.

[The Ozzman]

Thanks for the info guys.

From my limited knowlege I would agree that it is an 1868. I will have the photos ready tonight.

The gentleman Al from trapdoors.com advised I would need a hone or probe to sand the damage out. Does anyone make such a device for the 50-70? I am a patient person, so doing it by hand is possible for me.

Will post photos later this evening.

Cheers

[StrawHat]

I agree that it looks like yours is a Model 1868. I believe Strawhat meant to say the M1868 was the first to have a separate machined breech (not breechblock). A separate breechblock is an integral part of all Springfield Trapdoors. Here is a photo of my 1866 and 1868 for comparison. You can see the serial number on the 1868 on the breech and barrel.

I mispoke, you are indeed correct, a separate breech. Not enough coffee.

Kevin

[StrawHat]

...Thanks for the info guys... Cheers...

You will find a wealth of knowledge on this site.




...The gentleman Al from trapdoors.com advised I would need a hone or probe to sand the damage out. Does anyone make such a device for the 50-70? I am a patient person, so doing it by hand is possible for me... Cheers...

Wait until you get your brass, if it fits, you will not need to hone anything. If you do need to hone or polish, you can make a tool using the dimensions of the cartridge brass.

Kevin

[kootne]

Ozz, I too have an 1868, they are a well made rifle and mine shoots all to one hole at 50 yards, (or did back before my eyes stopped focusing).
What ever I tried on that chamber mouth, I would make sure it was not capable of cutting any deeper than the damaged portion. Take your time, mark the area with a felt tip pen, try the empty case and see where the ink rubs off from interference. Work on that spot only.
I would suggest only black powder, 1 or 2F, as the recievers on those rifles are iron, not steel. Don't go over 450 gr. bullet, that's what they are twisted for and also to keep pressure down. I would cast it between 1-20 and 1-30, make sure there is no antimony or arsenic in the lead mix or they won't bump up if your bullet is under bore size. Don't size the bullet and use a lube like SPG or similar that is made for black powder.
A lot of the old time guns will shoot pretty good even if the barrel doesn't look good, I think the black powder fouling fills the pits and gaps:)
They are a little tedious to clean if pitted but that is part of the game.
The action will stay a lot cleaner if you slide an empty rod through and put the patch on at the chamber end and pull it out (all fouling is traveling towards the muzzle this way).
Also, if it doesn't group well, try using a 3/16" or 1/4" cork wad between bullet and powder.
Have fun, be safe, and shoot straight!

[Ed in North Texas]

Thanks for the info guys.

From my limited knowlege I would agree that it is an 1868. I will have the photos ready tonight.

The gentleman Al from trapdoors.com advised I would need a hone or probe to sand the damage out. Does anyone make such a device for the 50-70? I am a patient person, so doing it by hand is possible for me.

Will post photos later this evening.

Cheers

If that burr gives you problems with case extraction, and you need a hone, a VERY CAREFUL use of a brake cylinder hone might help. I haven't used one since I rebuilt a TR-3A decades ago, but they will fit a variety of internal sizes. Use oil and rotate by hand, concentrating on the damaged area (careful so the rest of the chamber edge isn't worn away in the process).

Hope that helps.

[The Ozzman]

Guys this info has been so very helpful and a big weight off my mind. I was worried it may be out of action, not that I really thought that but I had waited so long for this gun and was worried I had made a mistake :-) You know how it is!

As promised, here are some photos; sorry if the quality aint quite right

151748 151749 151750151751

Cheers

[The Ozzman]

151753151754

Will be back in a few days :-)

[218bee]

My 50/70 Trapdoor barrel looks like a sewer pipe but shoots the LEE boolit above quite well at 100yds with 65gr of 2F.
Aim low cause I believe at lowest setting it was meant to be "on" at 200yds or so
Fun to shoot but my old eyes have trouble seeing that tiny front blade

[The Ozzman]

Thanks 218Bee! I am glad to hear that. I have given mine a clean with a brush and Hoppes, some of the shine is coming back which is cool, also, there is still prominent rifling there.

I can get a mould for the Lee bullett here quite cheap so thats great.

What sort of terminal performance would these bullets give on animals? I know the meplat is small, but given the huge size and weight I imagine that would not matter heaps. I recall reading somewhere that the original load would penetrate 5 inches of seasoned pine at 1098 yards.

[StrawHat]

...What sort of terminal performance would these bullets give on animals? I know the meplat is small, but given the huge size and weight I imagine that would not matter heaps. I recall reading somewhere that the original load would penetrate 5 inches of seasoned pine at 1098 yards...

I am not sure of how much pine it will cut through but the more I use the 50-70, the less use I have for the 45-70. It seems to have a much harder impact on deer and anchors them more quickly. I use an 1866 and have done so for the last 8 or 10 years. Prior to that, I was a 45-70 man all the way. Now, the 50-70 is the one I grab when hunting.

The Lee mold has given good results in my rifle as has the Lyman 515141 (450 grain Gov't). I also have a custom mold for the Gov't boolit with a hollow base but not sure if you can get that in your land.

Kevin

[The Ozzman]

Thanks Strawhat.

Very excited to see how I go getting this gun cleaned up.

If I require molds in the future it is pretty straightforward to order from overseas but not cheap.

Strawhat; is it the terminal performance that you like over the 45-70 or just the round overall?

Cheers

[StrawHat]

Both, the terminal performance of the 50 is that it appears to hit harder than the 45-70 (or my 405 WCF with similar velocity). The deer seem to drop faster with similar hits and tracking is only a matter of a few feet. I have always felt that with similar bullet weights and velocities, the larger diameter bullet will hit harder.

I also like the rifle that I use for the 50-70. I took an 1866 barrel and wrapped it in the wood and small parts of the 1841 Mississippi Rifle (replica). It was a fun build.

Kevin

[The Ozzman]

Hey again folks.

I have been off for a while. Thanks strawhat for the above post.

I have a question regarding the firing pin on this rifle. Should it be spring loaded? This one does not have a spring, the pin appears to be free floating. Moves back and forth without issue, but wondering if this is okay?

I cannot find refernce to whether this model should be free floating or an actual spring loaded pin.

Cheers!

[varsity07840]

Hey again folks.

I have been off for a while. Thanks strawhat for the above post.

I have a question regarding the firing pin on this rifle. Should it be spring loaded? This one does not have a spring, the pin appears to be free floating. Moves back and forth without issue, but wondering if this is okay?

I cannot find refernce to whether this model should be free floating or an actual spring loaded pin.

Cheers!
My 1868 has a pin spring. My 1888 and Gemmer built on an 1884 action do not. I have a spare '84 breech block that doesn't either. They all function fine.

Duane
either.

[ndnchf]

I recall reading an ordnance department document that discussed firing pin spring breakage. When the spring broke, it sometimes would cause the firing pin to be jamed in the forward position, resulting in a slam fire when the breech block was closed with a live round in the chamber. This was on the early M1873s. After a certain serial number, the spring was eliminated allowing the firing pin to float. My M1868 has a spring, but I check it regularly. My M1884 does not. I don't recall if my M1866 does or not, but I think it does.

[StrawHat]

The coiled firing pin spring had a tendency to break and jam the firing pin in the forward position. It was dropped after serial number 87000, so in the year 1878.

This is in the 45-70 longarms. I will check my 1866 and see if there is one there.

Kevin

[ndnchf]

I checked my M66, it has a spring.

[The Ozzman]

Thankyou guys.

Mine moves back and forth freely so I will not bother with it. I'm still learning as much as I can, so appreciate hearing from people with and without springs. Seems as long as the pin is not jammed it is okay. Does anybody think this will be a problem I should resolve?

While I am here, I am trying to find a brake cylinder hone or engine cylinder hone that will fit my chamber but am without luck. Are they a special order item?

Cheerio

[ndnchf]

So long as the pin moves freely, it should be ok. But it would be prudent to disassemble the breech block to clean out old gummy oil/grease and inspect the pin. Sometimes the tip gets bent because it hits at an angle. It's hard to tell if it's bent without removing it. At the same time you can clean and lube the cam lock assembly. I just did this to a friend's model 1880 trapdoor. The firing pin was all gummed up. But it works like new now.

[The Ozzman]

Talk about coincidence. Just now went to take a look at the breech block assembly, pin is now frozen :-(. I have been cleaning surface rust and I think gunk and steel wool fragments have gotten to it.

The rear part of the pin/striker still moves, but front is jammed. This tells me the pin is broken, right?

I really, really don't want to have to get a new breech block, please tell me I wont have to!

I would like to get a new pin and spring for it so it is spring loaded again. Someone has had it open at some stage as one of the screws is dinged up.

Cheers

Ozz

[ndnchf]

Sounds like the firing pin is broken, easy fix. Al Frasca can sell you an original replacement:
http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/parts.html

[Pavogrande]

Regarding the chamber mouth ding -- I would first try tapping in a steel plug like removing a dent from a 22rf chamber - Moving the burr back in place rather than removing it.
Hard to keep a hone centered in that close space.
Perhaps that burr is from a shooter frantically trying to dig out a copper case with a knife after the rim sheared off --
my ha-penny

[Geezer in NH]

Dixie gun works just bought an 1866 pin as mine had to be drilled out. $8.00 plus shipping.

[MtGun44]

I have two trapdoors, both .45-70, but one would not shoot for sour apples until I
went to the Lee 405 hollow base mold. It instantly started shooting into 4" at 100 yds
with pure lead alloy.

I think you may need a hollow base mold for that rifle. The were NOT designed for modern
oversized cast from harder alloys, they were intended for pure lead or nearly pure and very
soft, plus hollow base to slug up to the generally oversized bores.

[doc1876]

I know if missionary5155 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?2687-missionary5155) sees this, he will comment, as he is really involved with the 50-70

[Butzbach]

Whatever you do keep going. The trapdoor action is very satisfying to operate. The last time I fired one (45-70) was in the Michigan woods 45 years ago. Everything from the hammer cocking clicks to the cartridge insertion to closing the trap feels very good to the hand. The resounding "Thwock!" as it hit a water heater on the war path at 30 yards was apparently also quite memorable.
Keep plugging on your repair. You will not regret it.

[The Ozzman]

Thanks Butzbach. I will keep working on the old girl for sure. It is something that is very very interesting to me and I would like to see it in full functioning order again. If I ever decided to use it, I would be very aware of advice given here.

I am just getting some more things to keep working on it.

Pavogrande; I never thought of that, very interesting and cool. So perhaps a battle wound I guess? Or hunter in a hurry, possibly up against something that viewed him as lunch!

[StrawHat]

...Perhaps that burr is from a shooter frantically trying to dig out a copper case with a knife after the rim sheared off --...

While possible, all the 50-70 muskets were equipped with cleaning rods so if something got stuck, the rod would be handy to "unstuck" it. I recall some mention of one of the Indian fight were an Officer carried a 50 and the troops would pass their jammed 1873s to him to get the swollen case removed.

Kevin

[fast ronnie]

I had a rifle with a dinged chamber that would scratch the brass. I put some fine emery tape on a piece of wooden dowel with the end ground on a taper. It only took 3 or 4 swipes to remove the burr and didn't take off any extra material. It worked fine and doesn't tear up cases anymore.