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FergusonTO35
10-16-2015, 09:47 AM
Hey folks. I am planning to buy some new powder after work today for my NEF Huntsman. The place I go usually has both T7 and Blackhorn in stock. My budget is pretty tight right now and I can only afford one of them. Which would be your choice and why? I am currently shooting the 250 grain Lee REAL boolit over 80 grains Pyrodex RS lubed with Bore Butter. Also, do these powders work well with Bore Butter? How about LLA? Thanks!

M-Tecs
10-16-2015, 10:54 AM
I cannot fully answer your question since i only I only use Blackhorn 209 with sabots in my inlines. Blackhorn is really smokeless bulk powder with a little smoke added. Fouling is very very light. It is harder to ignite so do not use 209ML's.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?286227-anyone-using-blackhorn-powder

FergusonTO35
10-16-2015, 11:40 AM
Thanks. I e-mailed Western Powders about it and they got back to me quickly. The tech guy said I would have to use a Metrics breech plug in my rifle, also not to use Bore Butter or other blackpowder lubes. All my boolits are lubed with Bore Butter, I don't have time to get a new breech plug and switch everything over. I suppose right now I will get T7 and get BH209 after I cast some new boolits. I wonder if LLA works with BH209?

FergusonTO35
10-16-2015, 09:00 PM
Bought some T7 after work and was able to try a few shots at 40 yards or so. I was using 70 grains which is a mild load of Pyrodex, however it kicks and sounds more like 90 grains. Hodgdon's website says T7 produces more velocity than Pyro or BP so that is a built in savings I suppose. Produces alot of smoke too. Accuracy was at least as good as Pyro, maybe a little better. Reloads do require more effort but are doable, I guess I can live with that.

When it came time to clean I was surprised at how little fouling came out. Normally my pan of hot water turns blue pretty quick but not with T7. The patch on the cleaning jag remained surprisingly clean too. I have read on other forums that T7 fouling isn't nearly as prone to cause rusting as Pyro or BP. If that is true then Triple 7 is a real winner.

M-Tecs
10-16-2015, 10:17 PM
If you like T7 you will love Blackhorn when you make the switch.

FergusonTO35
10-17-2015, 07:46 AM
I don't doubt that, just wish it wasn't so much $$$. I'll use up all my BP type components and then change over.

M-Tecs
10-17-2015, 12:20 PM
A couple of years ago Cabelas had an end of the year sale on the 10oz. With my military discount and sale price I purchased a total of 5 pounds for $122.00. Wished I purchased more.

FergusonTO35
10-17-2015, 08:39 PM
Was that an actual 5 pounds or 5 10 oz. cans? $24.40/10 ounces is a good price compared to the norm but still way more than every other muzzleloader powder out there. I think Accurate will keep the price high until somebody comes up with a real competitor or the patent expires.

M-Tecs
10-17-2015, 11:03 PM
It was 8 10oz cans. Like I stated I should have purchased it all. They had 12 or 14 more. I had never used it before.

FergusonTO35
10-19-2015, 03:17 PM
Well, now that is a really good deal! I don't see it happening to me any time soon though.

FergusonTO35
10-19-2015, 08:34 PM
Tried out the T7 some more after work today. 70 grains in my NEF Huntsman with the 250 grain Lee REAL shoots perfectly to point of aim at 50 yards. My rifle wears a Williams ghost ring sight as do most of my lever actions. If this continues I may not even bother with Blackhorn. T7 costs alot less and is always in stock.

Motor
01-16-2016, 03:52 PM
If you like T7 you will love Blackhorn when you make the switch.

This is good to know but I may not run out of 777 any time soon. :)

Motor

FergusonTO35
12-10-2018, 10:03 AM
Update: been using T7 for three years now and am quite happy with it. The fouling is crusty but pretty easy to clean up, Thompson Center T17 works great. I have also found accuracy doesn't diminish as quickly from fouling as it does with Pyrodex. Only real difference is the rifle is a little harder to load. Never had a bit of corrosion on any of my guns since I made the switch either. 70 grains under a PRB in my NEF Huntsman is at least as accurate as the 250 grain Lee REAL, that is what I am hunting with right now. After the season, T7 goes on clearance at Walmart so I always pick up extras.

FergusonTO35
12-03-2019, 03:10 PM
Hey gang, still using Triple 7 and quite happy with it. Those of you that use it, how many shots can you fire before accuracy falls away? I'm currently shooting 65 grains under a 250 grain Lee REAL in my Huntsman. The first 5 or 6 shots are pretty much dead on, next 5 or 6 will wander a little bit. After that fuhgedaboutit, might as well be shooting a smoothbore with an undersize boolit.

FergusonTO35
10-12-2020, 09:05 PM
Wow, this forum doesn't get much traffic. Anyhow, still shooting the T7 and have discovered it works great in my sidelocks, which never functioned well with Pyrodex, including my 1980's CVA Plainsman with a dogleg ignition path. The fouling is crusty but cleans up fast and easy. Good job Hodgdon!

Dvdmacdaddy
10-12-2020, 10:27 PM
Tried the American Pioneer it was awful. Then tried T7, used it for a year or so. Then found Blackhorn used it for several years, still do. Last two years I’ve been experimenting with real black powder.

If I am going on a fill the freezer hunt it’s Blackhorn, I know it and trust it.

ndnchf
10-13-2020, 12:37 PM
I use BH 209 in cartridges and it works very well. I really like it, but it is pricey. So I mostly use it in smaller cartridges. But I have tried it in .50-70 and .50-95 too. It works equally well in these.

FergusonTO35
10-13-2020, 01:31 PM
I'm actually getting back into sidelocks, so I will probably stick with T7 for the forseeable future.

Chemoman
10-14-2020, 09:55 AM
T7 is a very accurate powder but clean up isn’t near as good as 209 powder. 209 powder is a very very accurate powder. stay away from pyrodex. will rust your gun out faster than any thing out their. if you use pyrodex in a 45/70 cartridge or anything like that use a scale to weigh and use a drop tube. then most of all dont compress. then a 60 thousands wad over the powder. also duplex it with 7 grains of shot gun powder on the bottom of the case. it will shoot accurate then. clean like crazy when done shooting. pyrodex rusts like nuts. many years ago a famouse American shooter won a South African long range shoot useing a 475 grain cast boolit with a pyrodex load like described. i will never use it but it can be made to work well with care.

FergusonTO35
10-15-2020, 01:09 PM
I hate Pyrodex and will never use it again. Last night, I had my first ever misfire with T7 after 5 years of using it. On the sixth round fired from my old CVA sidelock percussion the cap popped but the rifle didn't fire. Stuck my nipple pick down the flash hole and found no powder in the drum. I suspect that fouling prevented the powder from getting in there when I tamped it with the ramrod, or I didn't tamp it hard enough. Subsequent rounds I made sure to tamp it firmly and also probed with the nipple pick to ensure powder was getting into the drum, they all fired no problem.

Yooper003
10-18-2020, 06:38 PM
Tried out the T7 some more after work today. 70 grains in my NEF Huntsman with the 250 grain Lee REAL shoots perfectly to point of aim at 50 yards. My rifle wears a Williams ghost ring sight as do most of my lever actions. If this continues I may not even bother with Blackhorn. T7 costs alot less and is always in stock.
True Blackhorn is more expensive, but even though the can is just 10 oz. a100 gr. Load by volume is just 70 gr. By weight, so you are gaining there.

Shawlerbrook
10-18-2020, 06:49 PM
I know many rave about Blackhorn and it probably is that good, but I have been using Triple 7 for years now with great results.

FergusonTO35
10-19-2020, 01:23 PM
Same here, being able to use it in sidelocks is a huge bonus.

Dvdmacdaddy
10-25-2020, 10:24 AM
I use Bh 209 or black powder in a inline 209 muzzle loader and just BH 209 in a hand full of cartridges per year. My go to hunting load I use a 250gr Hornady SST ML and 100gr BH209, 1in group at 100yds. I also use a Hornady Great Plains or PRB backed by 100gr BH209 if I can’t use a sabot, not quite as accurate as the sabot but definitely minute of deer out to 100yds. Still experimenting with BP/projectile combos, only get a chance to shoot my muzzle loader rifle a few times a year.

Looking to eventually get a flint lock or percussion build your own rifle kit and a cap and ball revolver.

remy3424
10-25-2020, 10:58 AM
Another user of BH here, with inline and sabots. Start with T7, gave all that away when I discovered BH. The cost is well worth it.

warren5421
11-08-2020, 01:05 PM
I use Goex FFFg for .45-70, .44-40, and .45 Colt. Had trouble getting the black so bought T7 right after it was on the market. Still use both just don't compress T7 now. I now use 65 gr T7 in my .45-70 behind a .060 wad and 535 gr bullet. Shoots as good as my compressed 70 gr FFFg black.

FergusonTO35
10-11-2021, 03:42 PM
T7 is still working well for me in my sidelocks and inlines. I do think I am going to start swabbing between shots though. How are you guys swabbing your guns when using T7? TC Natural Lube 1000 (I think that is what its called) is supposed to be formulated especially to work with T7. I've heard of people swabbing with Bore Butter when using BP or Pyro. Might it be a good idea to swab with natural lube when using T7?

Gobeyond
03-07-2022, 08:27 PM
Is it possible to overload a cartridge with Triple 7? Like a 43 Mauser.

BLAHUT
07-22-2022, 10:55 PM
I TRYED THEM ALL> I ONLY USE BLACK HORN 209 FOR EVERYTHING USE ONLY A MAG PRIMER I USE FOR HUNTING I USE FOR TARGET MUST USE A CRONO IT CHANGES VOLISITY WITH EVERY LOT NUMBER I STAY AT 1200FPs WITH PURE LEAD DEPENDING ON WHICH GUN 500 TO 525 GR BULLET> FRONT STUFFER OR CARTRAGE I ONLY BUY 8LB GUGS I TRY TO GET ALL THE SAME LOT NUMBERS IN CASE ORDERS> I HAVE GONE THROUGH MAYBE 16 TO 20 8 POUNDERS STILL HAVE THREE ON SHELF> WILL NEED TO GET SAME FPs WITH NEW ORDER/LOT NUMBER>

NSB
07-23-2022, 06:27 AM
This discussion isn’t of much value at this point in time. There hasn’t been any Blackhorn209 brought into the country since last year and may not be available this year. I used BH209 exclusively for the last five or six years with good results. I just recently tried T7 again and I’m getting just as good results albeit I have to use a “Windexed” patch between shots to get the crud ring out before reloading….not a big deal.

RCB 1917
07-25-2022, 05:50 PM
Re BH209 availabilty, I just picked up three today in a Florida WalMart.

metricmonkeywrench
07-26-2022, 07:27 AM
I have 2 inlines, and older CVA Buckhorn that lives on a diet of Pyrodex RS and whatever pellets i come across. The previous owner ruined the barrel so its relegated to just being a "fun" gun. The new CVA Wolf received a factory BH209 breech plug off the bat and has never seen any other powders than the BH209. I'm shooting either the pricey factory power belts or Lee REAL's in either rifle. I finally got the correct rod end and will be trying out some of the CVA ELD bullets this week

For either I have not found the need for "magnum" primers. Though I have a small supply of normal 209 primers most of my range time is spent using some ancient Rem 97* primers that were obtained as a part of a lot buy and almost a lifetime supply.

Most all of my other M/L supplies are obtained from Wally World at closeout prices when the hunting season ends. The supply of BH209 (and other powders/pellets) does not seem to be a problem in my area.

FergusonTO35
09-20-2022, 03:01 PM
T7 and BH is available here but primers and caps are not. If someone asked me today about the best option for deer hunting other than centerfire rifle I would tell them to get a quality crossbow. Even if you buy a top shelf model, its going to be cheaper in the long run than relying on commercial powder, caps/primers, and projectiles. I'm probably going to upgrade mine soon.

NSB
09-20-2022, 05:33 PM
T7 is still working well for me in my sidelocks and inlines. I do think I am going to start swabbing between shots though. How are you guys swabbing your guns when using T7? TC Natural Lube 1000 (I think that is what its called) is supposed to be formulated especially to work with T7. I've heard of people swabbing with Bore Butter when using BP or Pyro. Might it be a good idea to swab with natural lube when using T7?
I’ve recently tried T7 again and have found that swabbing with a patch dampened with Windex followed by a dry patch gets rid of all the crud in the barrel. It shoots as well as BH209 but requires a little more effort because of having to swab between shots.

FergusonTO35
09-21-2022, 08:34 AM
Thanks, that's what I will do then. If I am using just sabots in a rifle, I wonder what the best bore preservative would be? Or since I'm not using BP or pyro, would that even be necessary? I've never had a problem with bore rust in my cartridge guns.

HWooldridge
09-21-2022, 09:29 AM
Thanks, that's what I will do then. If I am using just sabots in a rifle, I wonder what the best bore preservative would be? Or since I'm not using BP or pyro, would that even be necessary? I've never had a problem with bore rust in my cartridge guns.

Ballistol works pretty well - especially cut with some water, i.e., "moose milk".

FergusonTO35
09-22-2022, 10:11 PM
Thanks, will remember that. Took my TC New Englander out for some exercise today, 70 grains T7 under a PRB. I found that I can get away with swabbing every second or third shot without losing accuracy or becoming too hard to load. Spit patch or soaked in BP solvent didn't seem to make a difference. I guess as long as you get most of the fouling out you're good. Gonna try out my NEF Huntsman with 200 grain .44 boolits in sabots tomorrow.

Extra bonus: the fun store actually had caps today so I stocked up.

BLAHUT
09-22-2022, 11:05 PM
I have tried all of the powders from black to all of the subitutes, no smokeless, I use only blackhorn209 in all my guns from 50 inline, 45/60, 45/70, I have maybe used 8 Galion jugs now and have 3 Galion jugs sitting in the locker. I have used 5744 in my 45/70 guide gun for bears, with a 515 gr pure lead bullet for fishing only. Blackhorn may be hard to light. factory suggested using mag primers. that is all I have ever use since I started using it. have not had any problem even in winter. will handle compression well. very accurate in all my guns from a 50 yds out to 1000meters. burns clean, cleans up simple. for a 500 gr bullet I use 42 grs or less depending on lot and keep at about 1200 fps or a tad less, on coronagraph. I can shoot 100 rounds without loss of accuracy, if I do my part.

FergusonTO35
09-26-2022, 09:03 AM
So, is BH just a smokeless powder that produces BP pressures? I would think that somebody could come up with a smokeless powder that is a safe BP substitute, maybe similar to Trail Boss.

NSB
09-26-2022, 11:38 AM
BH209 is basically a smokeless powder producing low pressure. Contrary to popular belief, Trail Boss can produce high pressures. DO NOT use Trail Boss in a muzzle loader…it’s definitely not safe.

Bmi48219
09-27-2022, 11:05 PM
Can Triple 7 be used as a BP substitute in a flintlock smoothbore pistol? Saw some today for $35.00 and started wondering. Does it work for flash pan charge too, or would BP be better? Thanks

AntiqueSledMan
09-28-2022, 06:59 AM
Hello Bmi48219,

I don't think it will ignite.
I used to dry my barrel out by dumping about 10 gr of Goex in and snapping a cap,
but when I started using Triple-7 I noticed a lot of un-burned powder left in the barrel.
My brother's Lyman Great Plains percussion doesn't like Triple-7, taking multiple caps to fire.
But with 4 grains of 4F Goex under the Triple-7, it will fire first attempt every time.
Maybe if you were to use 4-F primer powder under the charge and in the pan it would work.

AntiqueSledMan.

FergusonTO35
09-28-2022, 08:40 AM
Hmm, rather surprising that nobody has come up with such a product until now. Of course, I'm also surprised at how very few smokeless powder muzzleloaders have been made. Seems quite strange to use a cutting edge inline that can make 500 yard shots but still be tied to BP or subs. There is an article on the Chuck Hawks website explaining how many subs can produce smokeless powder pressures even when used in charges recommended by the manufacturer.

NSB
09-28-2022, 09:11 AM
Hmm, rather surprising that nobody has come up with such a product until now. Of course, I'm also surprised at how very few smokeless powder muzzleloaders have been made. Seems quite strange to use a cutting edge inline that can make 500 yard shots but still be tied to BP or subs. There is an article on the Chuck Hawks website explaining how many subs can produce smokeless powder pressures even when used in charges recommended by the manufacturer.

I’m not sure what you’re saying in the last sentence. “How many subs can produce smokeless powder pressures even when used in charges recommended by the manufacturer”. I owned a Savage ML2 for many years and did a lot of load developement with that gun that was DESIGNED to contain the pressures of SOME smokeless powders. Most in-line muzzle loaders aren’t designed in the breech plug area to contain anything over black powder pressures. I’m not familiar with ANY smokeless powders that can be used safely in muzzle loading rifles that aren’t designed to be used with smokeless. In fact, some of the most common brands of in-lines aren’t safe with heavy charges of black powder subs. Some companies call their guns “magnum rated” simply to imply that you can use three pellets or 120 grains (measured by volume, not weight) of black powder subs. If you Google CVA mid 1990s guns blowing up you can read a lot of articles about people having guns blowing up and there’s some videos showing it happening. Those guns weren’t designed for high black powder pressures and lacked proof testing.

FergusonTO35
09-28-2022, 10:03 AM
Here is the article: https://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm It shows that some loads with subs get into the 30k pressure range.

Here is a link to Hodgdon data:https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf

I don't doubt that a 100 grain charge of T7 that gets close to 2000 fps is well into smokeless powder pressure, I don't see how it couldn't be. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that smokeless powder experimentation in muzzleloaders is something to take lightly. I'm just saying that everything I have read suggests that a quality inline which can handle magnum loads of T7 is almost certainly already operating at the lower end of smokeless powder pressure, and it would be nice if the rifle manufacturers performed testing to find some smokeless loads that are safe in a particular rifle.

NSB
09-28-2022, 12:19 PM
Here is the article: https://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm It shows that some loads with subs get into the 30k pressure range.

Here is a link to Hodgdon data:https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf

I don't doubt that a 100 grain charge of T7 that gets close to 2000 fps is well into smokeless powder pressure, I don't see how it couldn't be. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that smokeless powder experimentation in muzzleloaders is something to take lightly. I'm just saying that everything I have read suggests that a quality inline which can handle magnum loads of T7 is almost certainly already operating at the lower end of smokeless powder pressure, and it would be nice if the rifle manufacturers performed testing to find some smokeless loads that are safe in a particular rifle.
Your suggestions/ideas are dangerous. You need too understand why in-lines can’t take the pressure safely. If you look at a cross section of a barrel and breech plug interface, you’ll see that the cuts for the threads are the weak point on the whole thing. This is why people keep blowing up in-lines….they simply don’t know or understand what they’re doing. You also don’t understand what pressures the in-lines are running at. They are FAR below any smokeless powder pressures. You’re not offering any facts, just dangerous suggestions. Anyone reading this should do some research before even thinking about this idea. FWIW, Toby Bridges blew up a Savage ML2 playing around with different loads not recommended by Savage.

FergusonTO35
09-28-2022, 02:41 PM
These are just my thoughts, I'm not suggesting that anybody do anything.

toot
09-29-2022, 07:23 AM
NSB, and do not put a filler wad on top of TRAIL BOSS!

toot
09-29-2022, 07:26 AM
Bmi48219, yes it can be used in a flinter. I just shot an 80 GR, load of it in my BESS, with no BP booster and not a hesitation at all. jmho.

toot
09-29-2022, 07:32 AM
has any one tried BLACK HORN or BLACK MZ, in a rocklock with out a booster? just courious?