Shot my very first handloads - need some advice

[Javelin Dan]

Ok, so I finally made it to the range today to fire my first ever batch of hand loads. The really good news is that I still have all my appendages, hair, and skin. Really jazzed about all that. There was no real drama; no powderpuff loads, and nothing wanted to jump out of my hand so I believe all the charges were correct. No muzzle flash; a little more smoke and corresponding gunpowder smell than I anticipated, but then this was my first experience with Bullseye. But I did have a couple of failure-to-feeds and several failure-to-fires. More on that directly. Let me first bring you up to speed on what I was shooting.


I currently own an H&R (732).32 Long, a Jimenez Arms JA-32, and a WWII vintage Deutsche Werke Ortgies 7.6 mm. Before attempting to take a stab at hand loading, I ran several boxes of what commercial ammo I could find locally, CCI Blazers and Winchester “White Box” for the semi-autos, and also a Winchester 91 gr. RN “White Box” target ammo for the H&R. All these fired without fail, although there were one or two failure-to-feeds with the “White Box” .32 ACP. These are VERY short rounds measuring at around .94”


I went to the range with about 50 rounds chambered in .32 S&W long, and 75 rounds of .32 ACP. Before anyone asks, yes – I did have the proper shells for both. For starters, I used the same Hunter's Supply hard cast, 76 gr. lead RN-FP bullet (.313" diameter) for both chamberings. The .32 ACP's were pressed to an OAL of around .96” over 1.7 gr. of Bullseye. The .32 Long's were pressed to an OAL of 1.2” over 2 gr. of Bullseye. Every single powder charge in every single shell was weighed in on a digital scale. Not every single round was measured for length, but every second or third one was. Winchester small pistol primers were used in all.



Obviously, with the H&R revolver, there were no chambering issues. However, there were two (I think!) failure-to fires. Examining all primers that failed to fire (in both chamberings), ALL had decent sized dimples dead center of the primers. All the .32 long rounds that failed the first time were reloaded and fired on the second try.


The ACP rounds were a little more problematic. There were a number that failed to fire in the Ortgies. (I didn't keep track). All ejected normally and were later loaded individually and re-fired, and all but one fired on the second try. However, I had a few problems inserting the hand loads in the magazines (2 of them) for the JA-32. In fact at one point, a round got lodged in one of them and had to put it aside. Later at home, I gently pried the round out and measured its length at .980”. Must have been one I didn't measure. I may very well measure them all – at least for a while.


There is a highly recommended gunsmith around the corner from the range, so I took the 7.6 mm Ortgies there afterward and showed him the one round that didn't fire. He dry fired the gun and thought that the firing pin was striking hard enough, but said something about checking the spring and promised to look it over. He also mentioned something about improper head-spacing, but again, all pin strikes were dead center of the primers. He also mentioned something about the primers being pressed to the proper depth, but mine all appear to be flush and he never questioned the one on the one bullet I showed him.


Before I reload and move on, I have some questions. Since I had some amount of failure-to-fires in all three guns, should I suspect the primers? I chose Winchester as they were reported to be medium strike primers and very reliable. I was told Federals are lighter, but are they touchy enough to be dangerous?


Should I press the next batch closer to an OAL of .95”? Neither gun seemed to like the length of my bullets and both digested the CCI Blazers flawlessly, and all but one or two of the Winchesters. Don't have any more to measure, but I think I remember the Blazers as measuring shorter than my rounds, and the Winchesters were really short. Wouldn't press them shorter than .95 though.

Should I suspect anything wrong with the primer depth? I only have a flat edge on a metal ruler - no dial indicator or anything like that. How would I address it anyway?


Any other general advice? I'm just learning and I didn't expect this to be flawless, and it wasn't. I was really nervous before firing my first rounds in each gun, but what a gratifying BANG they made! Overall, what a HOOT!!!

[Pumpkinheaver]

Concerning the failure to fire issue, to me it sounds like your primers are not fully seated, the first strike finishes seating them and the second fires the round.

[Indiana shooter]

Primers should actually be slightly recessed in the primer pocket, not flush. That will cause your failure to fire right there. First strike seats the primer the rest of the way the second strike detonats the primer.

I am not familiar with that firearm but generally speaking a rimless case head spaces on the mouth. If you have to much crimp it can create to much space between the primer and firing pin causing a failure to fire as well. (Though most of the time the extractor will hold the case in place well enough to allow the primer to go off)

[Bzcraig]

We need more info. What are you using for your load data? Are all guns bone stock, reworked, reduced springs? What are you using to measure your oal? I use Federal primers in my revolvers that I have changed springs in, never had a detonation and always go bang. However, I believe Lee has some disclaimers with some of their equipment. Are you shooting cast or jacketed? Did you do the plunk test for the acp rounds?

[Mk42gunner]

According to my copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th ed., your powder charges aren't out of line. Of course the data in it was for the Lyman 311252, a round nosed boolit.

I agree with the others, it sounds like the primers aren't quite seated enough. How are you priming the cases? What I mean is are you priming on the press, if so what type? Or are you using some sort of off press priming system?

Either way primers should be seated fully; which means they will be below flush by a few thousandths of an inch when seated properly. This allows the legs of the primer's anvil to seat against the case and preload the priming pellet. If in doubt hold your straight edge across the case head and verify there is a gap between it and the face of the primer.

It is good to ask questions instead of blindly blundering along. Be safe and you will figure this out,

Robert

[rintinglen]

Concerning the failure to fire issue, to me it sounds like your primers are not fully seated, the first strike finishes seating them and the second fires the round.
+1
The description of the problem that you provided is classic for short-seated primers. The primer may be flush, but the anvil is not seated against the base of the shell, it is hovering a few thousandths away so the the first strike expends its energy driving the primer home, while the second then has enough force to detonate the primer and ignite the powder. The cure is to fully seat the primers, usually slightly below flush, to assure the anvil is supported by the primer pocket.
.980 should not be a problem. While your boolit may require a deeper seating, a RNR should function fine loaded to .98 or even .984.

[Wayne Smith]

To further explain - if you take a primer and look closely at it you will see that the anvil is slightly proud of the case. They are made this way (American, Russian aren't) so that you literally seat the anvil on the priming pellet as you seat the primer.

[rond]

The FN boolit needs to be seated different than the round nose in the 32 acp. The base needs to be the same depth, not the nose.

[Javelin Dan]

Thanks to all who responded. Apologies for the lack of pertinent info, but at this point I don't yet know what all I don't know.

I am using a Lee's single stage press and using the small pistol priming tool supplied with the kit. I'm installing the primer on the downstroke of the second (powder-through case mouth sizing) die. I'm putting a fair amount of pressure on this at the bottom of the stroke. Is there some way to adjust this?

I am using loading data from Lyman's 49th, and as previously noted, the bullet is a hard cast lead, no jacket projectile.

[Javelin Dan]

Forgot to mention bullet seating. l am seating the bullets for both chamberings in the first crimp groove to get the lengths I gave you. I first started to try to get a noticable roll crimp on the ACP's, but was bulging the case. I then backed off the crimp untill I just got a light crimp at the case mouth. Feels real smooth, and looks to be a big improvement over the factory rounds. Never tried anything different on the Longs.

[rsrocket1]

You only want enough of a crimp to remove the case flare. A little beyond vertical is OK, but a roll crimp is not good on a case that headspaces on the case mouth. The roll crimp will cause the case to go further into the chamber than it should. That might cause the failure to ignite primers you have although I agree that it is more likely not seating the primer properly (especially if the second strike set it off). The danger of roll crimped cases that headspace on the case mouth is that the case mouth could get pinched between the bullet and the chamber edge which could send the chamber pressures way up. Fortunately, many rimless guns will hold the case in the proper position with the extractor and not let the case go too far forward.

At the very least, the primers should be even with the face of the cartridge. Most of my handgun cartridges do this. Only on rifle cases do I see primers seated below the edge of the case. A quick feel with your fingers should tell you whether the primer is too high or not. I put all my loaded cartridges bullet side down in used factory trays and boxes. This gives me a chance to inspect the primer seating one last time before boxing it up.

[Wolfer]

The Lee auto-prime tool is relatively cheap and you can feel the primer bottom out.
If you run your fingernail from the boolit to your case it should catch on the case. If it doesn't you have too much crimp for the auto loaders.

[Javelin Dan]

Ok - thanks for all the info. I totaly get that I need to do my own heavy lifting here. I'll do some research and figure out how to get the primer depth correct, and I may back off on that crimp while I'm at it. It may take me several weeks to sort all this out and get back to the range, but I'll report back on my progress. I just needed to know where to start looking. You folks have been a huge help! Thanks again.

[Pumpkinheaver]

Stick with it, we were all newbies once. Better to ask questions than to let your pride stop you and you do something you shouldn't.

[Javelin Dan]

I promised I would come back and report on my progress and today, I made some. After taking a few days to think and do some research, I realized I actually had several problems to address and decided to eat this elephant one bite at at time.

My biggest and most frustrating problem was the “failure-to-fires” which you all convinced me were due to improper seating of primers. Googling around, I found particularly pertinent information here: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=562933 and I began to realize my problem. Newbie that I am, I took all the precautionary notices about the care and handling of primers so seriously that I was almost treating them each like little vials of nitro-glycerine. I simply wasn't applying enough omph! to seat them home on the press for fear of setting them off. The thread shown above convinced me that with caution, I probably wouldn't, though I'm sure many of you have stories about inadvertent “primer bites”. I researched several types of priming tools, and ended up winning an Ebay auction for a Lee's Ram Prime – it'll arrive next week. But I had time on my hands and 81 Winchester primers left and desperately wanted to know if it was me as I suspected, or the Winchester primers.

My dies were already set up for the .32 Long, and I figured those rounds would actually benefit from the crimp that I already had adjusted in, so I just decided to load for the H&R and let it tell me what I needed to know about the primers. I had seen enough testimonies from people who had used the Lee “Perfect Priming tool” (what came with my kit) for years without issue that I decided to try it again, only this time using a little more muscle to get 'em home. I donned my safety glasses, got my first shell ready to prime, girded up my loins, pulled the handle down and put a little “grunt” into it. I heard and felt a slight crunch as the primer slammed into its seat...but no bang! I removed the shell and examined it next to one of my previously loaded rounds. The primer in the early round was definitely flush (no more), but this one was noticeably slightly BELOW the bottom surface of the shell. I did another, then another, examining each one as I went and everyone looked snugly seated below the heel of the shell. I loaded 25 rounds, than another 25, and the rest till I had 81 rounds ready to take to the range, which I did today.

No need for melodramatics here, every single round simply fired off first try without fail. I know it's customary to cycle a couple hundred rounds to truly declare a problem solved, but comparing this week to last, I think I can safely say there's no need to change to a softer primer. The Winchesters should work just fine. Since it was just around the corner, I picked up the Ortez from the gunsmith who said it had a weak firing pin spring. Only 70 years old; go figure. That could have contributed to the higher number of failures I had with that gun. I'll address removing the crimp for the ACP's next.

I don't want to get maudlin here, but I need to make a point. When I decided to start reloading, I was completely on my own. I knew a couple of guys (not well) that loaded, and I asked a lot of questions. Deep down, I was hoping that one of them would take me under his wing and become a mentor. Neither did. Maybe it was because I was so inquisitive that they were afraid I would become their “new best friend”, but it soon became apparent that I would have to do this the hard way.

I bought my Lyman's 49th and read as much of it as I could. I started scouring the internet and landed on several helpful forums, but got most of the best info here. The point I'm trying to make is that you guys collectively are my mentor. I'm sure there are many others that have or could make the same claim. I humbly remind you that you all started somewhere, and ask you to remember that when I or some other newbie asks a stupid question that has already been asked and answered a hundred times. Your patience and fellowship mean more than I can put into words. Thank you.

[stubbicatt]

Sounds like you are making progress. Good for you!

As an aside, I don't believe a weak firing pin spring would cause the issues you described. But hopefully that has been rectified too.

[LuckyDog]

... when I or some other newbie asks a stupid question that has already been asked and answered a hundred times. Your patience and fellowship mean more than I can put into words. Thank you.

Wow, my sediments exactly too!

[Wayne Smith]

Two things - post your location and there may be one of us within reach.

Second, now that you have your primer issue solved, what do your barrels look like??

[Javelin Dan]

Been a little while since I checked back here, so let me catch up a little. It's been a couple weeks since I last posted, and in that time I've shot at least 300 rounds of handloads. I had decided that I had bitten off a pretty big chunk in trying to learn to shoot well, reload for two different chamberings, learn to shoot three different guns, and deal with all the floatsom and jetsom that comes with all that. I resolved myself to loading only for the .32 long for a couple weeks and verify that I had transcended all the beginner issues I had with that boolit, and just generally learn to shoot a little better and get comfortable with the gun. I've gone from making the target look like it was sprayed with a shotgun to shooting 4" - 6" groupings. Not great yet, but much better, and I'll continue to work on tightening that up.

The other day, I decided to go back to loading 50 rounds for the two .32 ACP's. Feeling confident that I have moved past my primer seating issues (I received my Lee's Ram Prime and it DOES have a better feel, but I am now confident using either method), I mainly wanted to see if I still had any failures to feed or fire. I had backed off on the crimp to where there is still a slight one, but I can definitely feel the case mouth when I drag my finger nail over it. I started out with Dad's 7.6mm Deutsch Werk Ortgies. To Stubbiecat: there apparently WAS a problem with the firing pin spring. Gunsmith said he took mine out and put it in his gun and had several failure to fires. With a new spring installed, I shot 30-35 of the fifty through that with absolutely no failures! I then wanted to try the Jimenez Arms JA-32. Using the rest of the rounds, I had three failure to feeds, but when the rounds were cleared and tried again, they all went bang. Before anyone reminds me, I do realize this is a cheap Saturday night special, and that they can be jam-o-matics, especially when new. This one has had close to 200 rounds fired through it but I did do the old Jimenez "fluff-n-buff" before I fired it the first time. I THINK the problem resides in fine tuning the feed lips of the magazines. Any advice on a procedure here would be greatly appreciated. Are there any magazines available from another vendor of better quality?

Wayne Smith - I'm in Akron, OH. Not sure exactly what you are asking about how the barrels look except to say this: After shooting today, I noticed the gun was considerably cleaner than in recent weeks. I had started another post about cleaning my brass without tumbling. When I mentioned the brass was sooty inside and out, a member (can't remember who) suggested my powder loads might be on the light side. I got out my Lee's balance scale and checked it against the digital scale I've been using, and sure enough, the digital scale was measuring light. (It was a cheap scale - noticing a theme here?) I followed the manufacturer's recommendations on calibration several times, but it still measures light. So I compensated for the actual loads I wanted to use, and the gun was a lot cleaner today. May have noticed a little more recoil too...

I don't want to make too many changes too fast so I can actually chart my progress as I make it, but was just wondering how many of you feel that the factory sizing die would solve all my feeding issues. Anybody, anybody, Bueller...?

[Javelin Dan]

Just wanted to clarify - when the JA-32 jams, the round lodges pretty much in the center of the ejection window butt down, bullet up, at about a 45 degree angle. Don't know what this means, but just thought I'd report it.

[.45Cole]

You probably (hopefully) didn't pay that much for the JA-32. I don't have personal experience with them but they have the rep of being problematic. I have a J-22 that will feed about 3-4 out of 6. That's good. Build your skill, but don't get down on your skills if they don't provide results out of this pistol.

The orientation sounds like an extraction issue, my J-22 does the same thing. Wouldn't spend much trying to fix it.

[Javelin Dan]

Hi .45Cole - yeah, thankfully I didn't pay a whole lot for the JA-32. But here's the thing: that gun will eat a steady diet of CCI Blazers all day long and never hiccup! I just gotta figure out how to duplicate that with my handloads...

[Wayne Smith]

The question about the barrel condition was pointed to a possible leading problem. As one who had plenty of practice scrubbing lead out of gun barrels, I can say it is an occupational hazard for one who is starting casting.

[Javelin Dan]

No casting for me, at least not now. I'm just buying a pre-cast bullet from Hunter's Supply. They have a lube ring which is supposed to reduce leading. So far, the barrel doesn't seem to have any unusual deposits in it. Since I've never seen a serious case of leading before, please tell me what to watch for.