Data for 180gr .44 special defensive loads?

[alping45]

I have a 3 3/4" Lipsey's Ruger Vaquero in .44 special, I would like to develop some high velocity, low recoil defensive rounds for CCW. I have some 180gr XTP's on hand and would like to get them up to around 1,200fps. I have seen data for 200gr bullets but no 180gr. Anyone have any info?

I would think this is surely doable as I am getting 1200fps with a 245 LSWC with 17.0gr of 2400, just under the Keith Load at 17.5gr. It is not very pleasant to shoot however.

[Outpost75]

In my Ruger .44 Magnums and .44-40s I use the Hornady 180-gr. XTP bullet in .44 Magnum brass with 8.4 grains of Bullseye.
In .44 Special brass for a Ruger I would work in the range of 6.5-7.0 grains Bullseye or up to 8 grains of Unique for similar results.

[rintinglen]

I think you'd have to go to 44 mag level loads to get what you're looking for--at least 20,000 psi. Your 17.0/245 grain load is pretty far over the top as well, (15.0 is where I stop with the 44 Special). IIRC, that is supposed to be a 28,000+ load. If that is a medium frame gun, the you are probably going right into the danger zone.
Brian Pearce wrote a very informative article on loading various power level rounds for the 44. It should be available from the Publishers of Handloader Magazine, Wolfe Publishing as a back issue.

FWIW, The hottest load I would shoot would be something around 9.0 grains of Unique, with your 180 grain bullet. Still over the top, but not beyond reason. I would not load such a round for an old S&W.

[alping45]

I think you'd have to go to 44 mag level loads to get what you're looking for--at least 20,000 psi. Your 17.0/245 grain load is pretty far over the top as well, (15.0 is where I stop with the 44 Special). IIRC, that is supposed to be a 28,000+ load. If that is a medium frame gun, the you are probably going right into the danger zone.
Brian Pearce wrote a very informative article on loading various power level rounds for the 44. It should be available from the Publishers of Handloader Magazine, Wolfe Publishing as a back issue.

FWIW, The hottest load I would shoot would be something around 9.0 grains of Unique, with your 180 grain bullet. Still over the top, but not beyond reason. I would not load such a round for an old S&W.

I have a copy of Brian Pearce's article, the 17.0gr Keith load is listed in his Tier 3 loadings under 25k PSI. He also shows 19.0gr of 2400 with a 200gr XTP at 1,250fps. Elmer Keith was shooting 17.5/250 in a Colt SAA, a modern medium framed Ruger Vaquero is much stronger than a SAA.

I think a 180gr XTP at 1200fps is well within the realm of safety in a Ruger med frame, though there are many other guns I would not try it in.

[alping45]

In my Ruger .44 Magnums and .44-40s I use the Hornady 180-gr. XTP bullet in .44 Magnum brass with 8.4 grains of Bullseye.
In .44 Special brass for a Ruger I would work in the range of 6.5-7.0 grains Bullseye or up to 8 grains of Unique for similar results.

What kind of velocity are you getting?

[Outpost75]

What kind of velocity are you getting?

Starline .44 Mag. cases, Winchester primers, 180 Hornady XTP, 8.4 grains Bullseye,
5-1/2" Ruger 1126 fps, 11 Sd, 27 ES, n=12 rds.

By way of comparison, same revolver, case, primer and bullet, 22 grs. Alliant #2400
1446 fps, 35 Sd, 105 ES, n=12 rds. Accuracy was nowhere near as good as the Bullseye.

[tsubaki]

I have been doing 9.0gr of Unique in my 3" model 720 Rossi with 180gr XTP's and getting 985fps.
At 10 yards the bullet expands perfectly when shot into a 50lb block of modeling clay.

Hornady shows 7.5gr Unique as the max at 900fps but Sierra with their 180gr bullet lists 9.1gr Unique as the max at 1000fps.
Sierra lists with their bullet 14.7gr of 2400 and magnum primer at 1000fps out of a 6 1/2" barrel.

List the powders you want to play with. Between the Sierra and Hornady books there are at least 16 powder choices.

[alping45]

Here's what I have on hand for pistol powders. 151007

[tsubaki]

Well we got 6 out of 11 between two books.
Give me a few.

[tsubaki]

With their 180gr bullet Sierra with a 6 1/2" barrel has a max of:
Unique at 9.1gr at 1000fps
Bullseye at 6.5gr at 900fps.
231 at 7.0gr at 900fps.
H110 and a magnum primer at 17.7gr at 1000fps.
AA#5 at 10.2gr at 900 fps.
2400 and a magnum primer at 14.7gr at 1000fps.

[tsubaki]

With the 180gr XTP Hornady bullet with a 3" barrel max loads of:
Unique at 7.5gr at 900fps.
Bullseye at 6.5gr at 900fps.
231 at 7.2gr at 900fps.
AA#5 at 10.4gr at 1000fps.

[tsubaki]

And as always, DO NOT depend on internet ****.
DO double check stuff before you load!

[MT Gianni]

The only way I would use my Ruger medium frame as a CCW would be if it were the only gun I had. If I was concerned about human threats I would slow them down to 45 acp speeds to prevent downrange damage from over penetration. If I was concerned with 4 legged predators, I would start with a 250 gr bullet and move up in weight.

[alping45]

Yeah I have about a half dozen other pistols that would be more ideal for CCW, so why carry the Vaquero? Because I want to that's why lol. No concern with over penetration with the XTP's, they are explosive at even moderatley high velocities which would make them ideal for a defensive round IMO.

[Jtarm]

And as always, DO NOT depend on internet ****.
DO double check stuff before you load!

And chrono if you have one. It doesn't tell the whole story about pressure, but it gives you an idea.

For the velocity you're seeking, I wouldn't go with a powder faster than Unique.

Power Pistol seems to be the only slow-ish handgun powder I can consistently find these days.

Alliant lists a load of 8.6 under the Speer 200 HP giving 976 fps. They don't list starting or max. I'm guessing that's within SAMMI pressure limits, so you might be able to exceed it a bit.

If you have a .44 magnum revolver, I would recommend working up your loads in it to be safe before feeding to your Blackhawk.

[ironhead7544]

The 180 gr 44 cal Hornady XTP was designed for the 44 Special. 900 fps would be fine.

[RJM52]

100% agree on using a chrono...different guns react differently with a different lot of powder or primer type...especially when one is pushing the pressure envelope.

A question for the OP...how did you determine that the 180 XTP was a "fast opening" bullet. Have you seen demos in ballistic gelatin confirming this? Even some water tests? The XTP line was originally made to meet the FBI barrier penetration protocol and I have found that they expand a lot less than expected. A better hunting bullet than a self-defense bullet.

I am mainly a .41 shooter but I do have a long history with .44s, both Magnum and Special. A few years ago Speer came out with their 200 grain Gold Dot HP...it has a HP deep enough to do shots with... It was originally designed as a .44 Special defensive bullet to be pushed under 900 fps. The factory loading is 860 from a 6.5" barrel.

Speer later used the same bullet in a .44 Magnum loading...the Gold Dot 200 grain Short Barrel Load. This runs the same bullet at 1080 fps from a 4". A friend tested all the available .44 Special ammo in his Model 21 TR Special. None of them expanded reliably. He then bought a 3" PC 629 and the .44 Magnum version opened every time. The Speer #14 loading manual has loads for this bullet in .44 Magnum. I was so impressed with the round I bought a 629 Mountain Gun just to shoot them out of. 10 grains of Winchester 231 with a Speer GD HP or any plated or cast bullet for cheap practice equals the factory load.

As to your selection of powders and bullet for use in a New Vaquero...should have no problem with making it safely to 1200 fps....but again use a chronograph as with just 3" of barrel you will be maxing out.

For a 3" barrel I would try Herco, AAC-9 and Blue Dot first as all are in the medium burning range...

I only have 180/.44 Sp. data using SR4756 with a 180 Sierra and a 6.5" barrel S&W Model 24:

11.0....1280 fps

12.0....1320 fps

170 grain Lyman cast Spire Point that had the gas check portion milled off from a 200 grain bullet:

12.0 SR4756...1458 fps

13.0 SR4756...1520 fps (1340 from a 3" M-24 Combat Special)



Good luck and go slow...Bob

[RJM52]

Looked over on LoadData.com. The only ones close use Vihtavuori powders. One set of loads using 2400 went up to 1200 fps and that was at 17.0 grains...

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ross-seyfried-lipseys-ruger-flattop-44-special-bisley-revolvers/

Bob