What is this thing attached to an old Colt?

[JimmyTheDentist]

Howdy folks!

A neighbor handed this to me and asked what it was. I told her I’ve got no idea.

It was in a box of stuff from her recently deceased father . . . who was about 82.

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The frame is a Colt.


There is no barrel. No original cylinder assembly. The crane has been replaced. Looks like the hammer/nose has been replaced/modified. Top strap has been drilled and tapped.


The most blatant modification is that the cylinder has been replaced with a big hunk of what looks to be stainless steel which houses a firing pin . . .

Pull the trigger and the hammer falls on a rod that runs through the steel block. This extends the pin past where you would normally find the forcing cone. I assume it then strikes the primer of the round that must have been seated directly into the barrel.

There are no markings on the modification anywhere as far as I can see. And the serial number on the replacement crane does NOT match the serial number on the frame.


I imagine it would be possible to only load one round at a time. And there’s no ejector . . . so it looks like the only way to remove a spent case would be to pry it out of the barrel. While firing, how would you prevent the round from falling backwards out of the barrel?


What’s the point of this thing? Is this some guy’s design project? Maybe it was used for designing barrels? Or for working-up custom loads? Or is this an item that was mass-produced by some company someplace?


I’m completely ignorant about older revolvers. I’m not super-interested as it's not mine to fix up . . . but just out of curiosity is there a way to find out, definitively, what sort of Colt this used to be? The closest I can figure, from fartin’ around on the interwebs, is that maybe it’s a 1917 or a New Service?


When I punch the serial numbers from the frame and the replacement crane into the Colt customer service webpage I get a bunch of not overly useful information. The proofhouse web site is only marginally more helpful . . . manufacture of both pieces may be from 1919 but I don’t trust that.


If anybody here can shed some light on any of this that would be most appreciated.


And, in any event, I sure do hope you all have a wonderful Columbus Day.

Thanks much!

Jimmy the Dentist

[Walkingwolf]

Not positive but that appears to be a block used to keep the frame from twisting while removing, and installing barrels.

[fryboy]

wow ....if a case was put in where the barrel went it would more than likely stick out enough to be manually pushed out , if the block locks in place it would hold the shell in place .. just for grins does a 410 shell fit it ? or mayhaps just the head ? i'm for some reason thinking a signal/starting gun ( but that's just a swag )

[paralaska]

I think I've seen one of these before . . . It was a single shot. The barrel was chambered for the round as in a rifle . . . I'm gonna do some research, but i'm pretty sure that's what it is . . . Seems you could screw in different barrels for different calibers if the firing pin is center fire . . .

[Greg S]

It looks as if smeone made a copy of an old Colt Camp Perry Model. This looks similar but as stated, the cartridge would have to be chambered in the barrel. The Perry model was in 22 lr with a 10" barrel.



http://www.coltfever.com/Camp_Perry.html

[Guesser]

Single shot breech block?? Kinda reminds me of the Ruger Hawkeye from the early 60's that had a roll out breech for the 256 Winchester Magnum.

[baogongmeo]

A part of someone's homemade Camp Perry model?

[Nueces]

There was at least one article in one of the old gunzines, maybe 50 years ago, about this single shot conversion of a Colt 1917. This was before the TC Contender came out, of course. These guns could be had mail order for less than $30. All sorts of surgical ideas were applied to them at the time.

[Tackleberry41]

Sure looks like a home made set up, where you could shoot different cals by screwing in a different barrel, tho imagine it would be limited to lower pressure rounds. Maybe the original gun was going to be to much to fix so they decided to make...something out of it. My friend may make fun of some of the 'weird' guns I bring around. Tho not to much at the 1911 I built from a rust pitted frame he was going to toss in the trash. Or my 'pirate gun' as he calls it, Rossi single shot pistol that came in 45/410, that was near worthless until I did a barrel stub in just 45 colt and is shockingly accurate. Wish I could find another barrel to stub in 38/357 or similar.

[Scharfschuetze]

Yep, a single shot modification to the Colt. Note the firing pin that goes through the block to fire a round chambered in the barrel.

Ruger made a similarly breached handgun based on the Blackhawk revolver chambered for the 256 Winchester Magnum in the late 60s. I believe it was called the "Hawkeye." Should 'a bought one when nobody wanted them. I haven't seen one in years.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I recall seeing a black & white photo back in the 1960`s in a gun rag, possibly the NRA Rifleman, of a shooter in a bullseye stance holding a revolver very similar to this item. At the time I thought it an odd firearm to be using for target shooting.Robert

[kywoodwrkr]

Looks like W. Ruger didn't have an original idea with the Hawkeye doesn't it!

[labradigger1]

Training/starter pistol?
Maybe put a primed empty 38 or 45 colt case where the barrel used to be?

[Dutchman]

1969 NRA Gunsmithing Guide has the article on this conversion. Pretty cool overall.

Dutch

[Crank]

Love it! Somebody got the itch to make a home-brewed "Hawkeye" using a DA Colt. I would agree that it appears to be a Colt New Service frame. The thing to look for, is there a serial number and markings on the bottom of the grip frame? If so, that is the serial number location for the 1917 model, if the only number is inside the window of the frame, it is a commercial New Service (unless someone "sanitized" it to remove the US property markings). The fact that it once had a lanyard in the bottom of the grip doesn't count for much, as many commercial guns had these also. A neat piece of creative work, I wish I was lucky enough to find something that unique.

Mark

[runfiverun]

hmm I got a few spare Dan Wesson barrels kicking around here.
matching one to something like this would offer a pretty good chance at a super accurate single shot pistol.
and if the threading were done right or a bushing was used it could easily be made into a switch caliber pistol.

[MtGun44]

Single shot conversion, partially completed.

[pietro]

.

Colt, S&W, Ruger, & others made similar single-shot target pistols - which were all the rage, 50+ -odd years ago, when Bullseye shooting was the only game around ((except for International & Olympic shooting).


.

[M-Tecs]

Since it has a firing pin in the block it's not a copy of the Camp Perry model. On the Camp Perry model the block and barrel is one piece. It is a copy of the Ruger Hawkeye without an ejector. The Hawkeye was chambered for the .256 Mag in the barrel and it had a firing pin in the breachblock. A friend of my dad had a Hawkeye. I got to shoot it in the early 70's.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Have never seen one till now ! I admire the ingenuity of whoever did that. That would be a fine answer to the "silly" idea that one revolver is plenty for personal use.
Mike in Peru

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The possibilities are much extended by the fact that it is unfinished. It could be a target pistol with no target sights yet, and the firing-pin not yet shortened and rounded off to suit that breech face. But a couple of other possibilities are a device for fireforming small rifle cartridges at home, or a military or industrial fuse igniter.

[Motard]

Slaughterhouse pistol?

[pietro]

.

IMO, it's more of an "un-revolver".... ;)


.

[JimmyTheDentist]

IMO, it's more of an "un-revolver".... ;)

Yeah, it is most certainly no longer a revolver!

You guys sure do know a lot about guns . . . all this info, even the guesses that may be off the mark, seems pretty well informed!

The owner found a barrel and so now we can see how it screws into the frame and how you could seat a single round at the breach. And how it would be a simple thing to change calibers.

There are no markings whatsoever on the barrel. And so I am uncertain of the caliber. And no place for any type of front sight blade . . . so the tapped holes might point to this thing being used for some sort of target shooting. Though removing the spent case seems like it would preclude any timed competition.

Overall length is 10.125in. An imprecise measure with my dial caliper shows the ID at the muzzle end is roughly .221 and at the breach end, in order to accommodate the case, it’s .348

She found no ammo lying around but did have a couple of empty boxes of “.218 Bee” . . . with which I am wholly unfamiliar.

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Thanks to CRANK for the info about the Colt frame . . . no numbers on the bottom of the frame at the grip . . . and it doesn’t look “tampered” with . . . so I figure this is probably a New Service Model.

And thanks very much to all the rest of you fine folks for all the input. Now that I‘ve got some ideas I’ll keep digging around for specifics. Using the references you folks provided here should allow me to fill in the blanks about where it actually came from and when.

On a separate but related note, the owner has no interest in this thing. Nor do I. So it’s up for grabs if anybody out there wants to make an offer for it.

Again, I sure do appreciate you all taking the time to sound off on this thing!

Jimmy the Dentist

[Ola]

Single shot breech block?? Kinda reminds me of the Ruger Hawkeye from the early 60's that had a roll out breech for the 256 Winchester Magnum. My thoughts exactly..

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That barrel pretty well clears up that a target pistol was what was intended. In theory it might be more accurate than a target revolver, but that is mighty theoretical, and it would take a better pistol shot than me to find a difference. The use of the Colt frame is logical enough, since unlike the Smith and Wesson it didn't depend on locking in a barrel lug at the front of the ejector rod, which would be hard to duplicate.

Someone with the patience could probably rebuild it into an extremely good revolver. But I doubt if it would be justified for the person who has to pay to have it done.

[Dutchman]

1969 edition NRA Gunsmithing Guide

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrggbgwfdbdwstfxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/rftdkdrkbxwfqgwskgbxssqrtwrst/4/28344/9895637/001b-vi.jpg

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrggbgwkrdddkrwxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/wrqfwtgqbxrkktrfgfsxrqrkswwdq/4/28344/9895637/002b-vi.jpg

[JimmyTheDentist]

1969 edition NRA Gunsmithing Guide

that is F A N T A S T I C ! ! !

i'm getting old enough to realize that many of life's little mysteries seem to go forever un-solved.

it sure is satisfying - especially these days - to get a definitive answer about things mis-understood.

thanks very much, Dutchman, for taking the time to find / scan / post this great little article and for clearing up all my confusion!

J the D

[Nueces]

Overall length is 10.125in. An imprecise measure with my dial caliper shows the ID at the muzzle end is roughly .221 and at the breach end, in order to accommodate the case, it’s .348

She found no ammo lying around but did have a couple of empty boxes of “.218 Bee” . . . with which I am wholly unfamiliar.

Jimmy the Dentist

Jimmy, your caliper measurements are consistent with the 218 Bee case, which is just the 32-20 necked down to 22. I could send you an orphan case that you could try in the chamber. PM me if interested.

[JimmyTheDentist]

one last thought about this if there's still anybody out there following along . . .

this article seems to make it clear that these things were never mass-produced, yeah?

is it safe to assume that "Gunsmith Harry Creighton of Nashville, Tenn" cranked out a few of these and that's all there is?

or that maybe the author, Capt. Franklin C. Green USAF, did some messin' about with his spare parts but the idea never caught on and so not more than a very few exist?

the Ruger Hawkeye single-shot pistol seems not to have been overly popular either, right?

does scarcity in this instance make this a valuable collector's item? or does it's uniqueness make it nearly worthless?

in any event i gotta get my hands on some .218 Bee and get out to the range!

thanks again, all.

James

[CLAYPOOL]

Runfiverun are you willing to sell said Dan Wesson barrels and their caliber..?

[JimmyTheDentist]

. . . your caliper measurements are consistent with the 218 Bee case . . . I could send you an orphan case that you could try in the chamber . . .

thanks ever so much to Nueces for taking the time to find, pack and ship the brass to me so that i can close the book on this little caper.

he was right-on . . . and his case fit this thing just like he said it would!

his generosity allowed me to take the next step and track down some factory rounds of .218 Bee in order to make certain everything would seat properly.

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while i've got no easy way to temporarily mount a scope, i at least do have the crappy old replacement grips that came on the gun . . . i hope they (or any of the rest of the thing for that matter) don't get blown off or up or out while i'm fiddling about at the range.

i guess the last thing to do now, before i say goodbye to this freaky bit of old gun junk, is to get out there and see if i can't hit the side of that proverbial barn.

thanks again, everybody, for all the input/help/guidance/patience you've provided . . . i sure do appreciate it!

Jimmy the Dentist

[Nueces]

Hooaah!

[Whiterabbit]

how do you extract cases?

[pistol]

Thanks to all you guys from a newcomer (but OLD shooter): I find your inputs simply fantastic, on any subjects. To say the truth, I have found ALL shooters, all over the world, to be a very nice bunch of people, a sort of fraternity across borders. Thank you for being what you are!

[Tackleberry41]

I guess in some cases this was a way to keep using a pistol that might cost to much to fix? The factory produced ones did not sell well, so guess their only really good as a cheap project. I would think taking the barrel on and off to load, besides being tedious, would also sort of ruin it as a target pistol. Or having them in multiple calibers as the poa would change all the time.

[Nueces]

how do you extract cases?

Pop 'em out with a rod down the muzzle. The Ruger Hawkeye, based on the Blackhawk frame, made use of the standard ejection rod, with a tab on the back acting on the case rim. See http://stevespages.com/pdf/ruger_hawkeye.pdf

So, with some more engineering, I bet a Colt or Ruger rod housing could be installed as with the Hawkeye.

[JimmyTheDentist]

I guess in some cases this was a way to keep using a pistol that might cost to much to fix? . . . taking the barrel on and off to load, besides being tedious, would also sort of ruin it as a target pistol. Or having them in multiple calibers as the poa would change all the time.

never dawned on me that maybe this original rig was so screwed up that it might have been more economical and fun to make these modifications rather than scrapping the whole thing . . . that sure does help explain why somebody would bother with such a contraption.

you don't need to remove the barrel to load . . . the "firing pin block" swings aside on the crane just as if there were a normal cylinder there (there are more pics backwards in this thread). and that allows for simply pushing the spent case out from the muzzle . . . i've got a thin brass rod that will hopefully do the trick.

but you make another good point about utilizing different calibers. i originally figured you'd simple buy different barrels with different chambers . . . swap out the barrel and then you could get right back to shootin', right? but you'd need to spend a heck of a lot of time/ammo sighting in each caliber prior to any practical use of the thing. and i guess that might sour me on the whole idea.

plus, where would you buy barrels for this? you'd need to fabricate your own, yes? i'm no good in the machine shop so i'd hope to find just one that might work.

and the one we find is .218 Bee?! why in the world would anybody choose .218 Bee for cripes sake?!

thanks.

J the D