Merits of Hardball vs. Lyman #2

[RogerDat]

Lyman #2 is 5% Sn 5% Sb while Hardball is 2% Sn 6% Sb both are nearly the same BHN so why use one over the other? What applications are better suited to one of the two alloys and what characteristics of the alloy make it better for that use?

Sort of an academic question except that I have a supply of lead alloy that has 16% Sb but only 5% Sn. This means it takes less of the more expensive solder/tin metals to get that alloy cut to Hardball than it does to make it into Lyman #2. Mixed with plain I can get Hardball using about 1/4 lb. of 40/60 solder. Lyman #2 takes solder measured in pounds.

[bangerjim]

I consider them the same for gubmint werk.

Sn adds very little hardness per % content. I cannot recall the exact numbers but is very low/%.

From what I have found and read, we do not really need anything over 2% Sn (for good fill). More is just a waste of $$. Lyman is a standard mix in the old and new books and will be a teeny bit lighter than HB due to the 5% Sn and will give you slightly different weights for the molds based on the Lyman mix. But who really cares about a grain or two? I don't. Some do.

And I use it because I have over 400# of hardball!

banger

[JWFilips]

Both too hard for normal shooting in my book unless shooting rifle at +2000 fps
(Just my ramblings)

[bangerjim]

But they make wonderful sweetening alloys for pure. I never could understand why the "olde schoole" guys shot that uber-hard stuff all the time. And molds are still designed for the weight and sizing of the darned stuff.

My, how times and thinking have changed.

banger

[JWFilips]

B...Jim if you Read their work ( old Guys) Hard was 12 BHN most times & Lyman #2 was hard ++ for rifle shooting
Now we are living in a too hard world of commercial casts because they want the boolits to reach you in "Good" shape They care not if they are too hard for most everyones guns at BHN18. & Yes I shoot BHN 20+ in my 243 at 2300fps but everything else is way below Lyman #2 just no need for that hardness unless shooting rifle. When the old ones said "hard" they really meant not the "Hard" we know today.
As alway just my rambling 2 cents

[jhalcott]

Those old guys shot darn few hand guns! My grand dad and friends Mostly used 30-30s or 03's. The pistols that were used were often revolvers of various make and vintage. I wonder how he made it into his 90s (age!) with a still in the same building as his reloading equipment!

[Mitch]

here is the formula from the rotometals site.it seems to be pretty close
Basic Rules for Hardening Lead-

For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3.
For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.
For a simple equation,
Brinell = 8.60 + ( 0.29 * Tin ) + ( 0.92 * Antimony )

[RogerDat]

The point about 2% tin Jim mentions touches on a thought I was having. Lyman #2 lends itself to cutting with plain while still maintaining an equal ratio of Sn & Sb and those two will alloy with each other. A 50/50 mix of plain and #2 has about 11.6 BHN and still has a 2.5% Sn for fill out.

Hardball starts out with only 2% tin cut that 50/50 and the alloy calculator says you have 11.7 BHN but only 1% Sn to aid fill out. Which may be sufficient tin for fill out purposes.

I have rifle in mind for this stuff. .223, 7.62x39, 303 Brit, 8mm mauser. Those first two tend to be where the hardness will be most significant. Auto loader functionality I figure requires lot of velocity & harder lead.

[jmort]

The balanced alloy will be superior in terminal performance. Paper cannot tell the difference. 94/3/3 is perfect for me, but to each his own. It is good as is and can be heat treated into the mid 20's BHN and will stay together post impact. I find the cost of tin to be well worth it, but again, to each his own.

[RogerDat]

The balanced alloy will be superior in terminal performance. Paper cannot tell the difference. 94/3/3 is perfect for me, but to each his own. It is good as is and can be heat treated into the mid 20's BHN and will stay together post impact. I find the cost of tin to be well worth it, but again, to each his own.

I have made a batch of stuff close to your 94/3/3 from COWW's with tin added - theoretical 95/3/2 it casts fine and seems entirely adequate for punching paper or most handgun uses I have put it to. Up to medium hot 357 magnum loads.

With cooler weather it is time to do some melting & smelting. While I see some wisdom in keeping "ingredients" separate this is a good time of year to make ingots of casting alloys to have them in the garage ready for use. Beats running a snow blower out to the shed or thawing a frozen lock to get raw ingredients in the winter.

Lyman #2 or Hardball are not always intended to get used "as is", they may well go into a pot and be cut with some plain or COWW ingots for boolit casting. Or potentially be used as is for the rifles mentioned above. I'm just now getting molds to cast for the auto loading rifles (.223 & 7.62) so I can cast for them.

This year is the first time I had enough printers lead to make it worth casting a hundred or two lbs. of a finished and know alloy ingots just to have on hand ready to go. The printers lead is in spacer strips so keeping them in original form does not provide the verification of alloy that linotype or foundry type forms would provide. No reason not to melt them into a more convenient form in large batches which I get XRF gunned to find out the alloy.

This thread for me is about what to make from that printers alloy to have on hand in 1# ingots ready to use as is or cut with other lead for casting. My reluctance to make Lymans #2 is partly due to having to add solder/tin raw ingredients in because once added they are no longer available for other uses, such as making that 94/3/3 or softer alloys from plain or COWW stock.

I want to make large batch so that I can get XRF of sample and have a stockpile that is consistent. Got to wondering with the two alloys being almost the same BHN which would be the better one to have on hand, in quantity for use as is, or as ingredient. And why?

[youngmman]

I have used a 93/5/2 alloy, with a BHN of 14, for years and it seems to work well as is with all my handguns, 38sp, 357mag, 44sp, 44mag & 45 ACP. It's a mix of Lino and COWW.

[Mitch]

I to like to alloy a big batch Meaning to me 100 to 150lbs at a time.i do not have a xrf that I could use.so what would be wrong with mixing lyman no2.reason cut 50/50 and have 95 2.5 2.5 would make a good mix for most pistols.and if you have a xrf handy and can mix something usefull to you that can be cut in what ever % you need.maybe evn some that could be cut several ways to end up with what you want.it seems to me I am adding tin to the mix no matter what.mono and lino just allways needs some tin for my uses. So my vote would be lyman no 2 for overall mixing of alloys no tin needed


Bob

[RogerDat]

I to like to alloy a big batch Meaning to me 100 to 150lbs at a time.i do not have a xrf that I could use.so what would be wrong with mixing lyman no2.reason cut 50/50 and have 95 2.5 2.5 would make a good mix for most pistols.and if you have a xrf handy and can mix something usefull to you that can be cut in what ever % you need.maybe evn some that could be cut several ways to end up with what you want.it seems to me I am adding tin to the mix no matter what.mono and lino just allways needs some tin for my uses. So my vote would be lyman no 2 for overall mixing of alloys no tin needed


Bob

Yes short of buying foundry alloys doing a big batch is the only way I know to have anything consistent to work with from the assorted scrap that makes up my world view of lead. I can usually get it xrf gunned but it is them doing me a favor so I would much rather ask the yard to test a couple of ingots from 150# batch then have to ask them three different days to test three different 50# batches.

[dubber123]

I am not convinced "hard" is as necessary as we have been lead to believe. I have 2 recent examples, a 9.5" .357 Mag, (F/A mod 353), that shoots a 220 grain, 9 Bhn boolit cast of 50% WW to 50% pure lead + 2% Tin at 1,500 fps. Pressures should be in the 45,000 Psi+ range. It shoots in 1" with iron sights at at 50 yards. I have never done more than push an oily patch down the bore.

Example #2 is a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington. It shoots the exact same boolit at 2,150 Fps., and similarly groups under 1" at 50 yds. The bore in this rifle was firelapped.

I rarely do much harder than 14 bhn, which is air cooled WW's + 2% tin any more, and I can't see any difference in accuracy. Maybe I am just lucky. :)