Condition 3 carry

[preparehandbook]

How many of you carry condition 3 (Loaded mag, empty chamber, safety off)?

I carry an M57A Tokarev which allows:



Condition Russian, Chambered, half cock locked (not drop safe, slide and trigger locked until hammer is cocked).
Condition 1, Chambered, Cocked, locked (Drop safe, slide can be operated on safe).
Condition 2, Chambered, hammer down, safety off (not drop safe), or safety on (drop safe).
Condition 3, Chamber empty, safety off.


I usually carry condition 3. I feel it is a bit safer with kids around, etc. and as I grew up with condition 2 and condition 3 carry. If the Tok was drop safe without the safety on in condition 2 I would carry it thusly, as I can cock a hammer on draw long before I am up and on target.

Condition Russian, with the Tok on it's half cock (more of a 1/5th lock) is kind of neat because if you lose control of the gun most westerners are not going to sort out how to get it running very quickly, at least not before I beat them into submission with my cane.

I hear a lot of talk about condition 2 and 3 being "too slow" but I have never heard of an instance where this extra time caused a problem. In many areas of the world condition 3 is mandatory and it doesn't seem to slow people down when stuff goes pear shaped. What I do see is a whole lot of negligent discharges in the news.

Why is condition 3 so slow for Americans, but the rest of the world does ok with it.

Any thoughts?

[Hickok]

Sometimes I carry a Glock 27 shoved down in the top of my western style cowboy boots and then pull my pants leg over the boot. I too have the Glock in condition 3 using this style of carry, because I just don't trust the Glock style trigger if the pistol is not in a holster that protects it from getting snagged or hooked on clothing that can cause a discharge.

Since the pistol is shoved down the top of my boot, I figure if I have to go through the motions of lifting my pants cuff to get the handgun out, I could rack one in the chamber if the need arises, because this ain't gonna be a fast draw anyway!

Maybe not the best or fastest way, but this is the way I have to carry a handgun at times, or go without, which I am not going to do!

[Walkingwolf]

I carry condition 1, but advocate others make their own choice.

[Omega]

I carry either a glock 23 or an XDs .40 in locked and cocked condition. I practice getting a gun into shooting condition from all manner of conditions because you never know what gun you will end up with in critical situations. The trick is to keep the booger hook out of the trigger well until you need to squeeze the trigger, and not to fiddle with a loaded gun unless you are drawing it to use.

[Outpost75]

Russian carry is unsafe.

With older designs such as the TT33 and Beretta M1934 I favor Condition 3. In addition I carry the gun with the hammer at full cock with the chamber EMPTY. This reduces effort needed to rack the slide and provides intimidation value upon presentation if you need more time to rack the slide, because you have not learned and practiced the technique for this carry as demonstrated in the video link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGD2j9ks38g

[Walkingwolf]

Russian carry?

[bedbugbilly]

Everyone should carry in the manner that they are most confident with - it's a personal choice.

Personally - I usually carry a revolver - it's always ready to go. I have recently picked up a 9mm Shield to switch off to once in a while - that will be carried with one in the tube - safety on ready to be thumb swept off if necessary to remove from holster. My holsters all cover the trigger. I sometimes carry a SR9 in the same manner.

Any class I've ever taken on SD it has beens stressed to carry with one in the tube (semi) or full cylinder on a revolver with a cross bar. And I will also state that the training I've received has been from LE officers and former Spec. Ops. Military - all of whom have had field experience backing up what they stress. As they have all stated - a good holster which covers the trigger to prevent any possible accidental snagging and which holds the weapon securely but allows quick withdrawal - there should never be a problem. Most SD situations are going to happen in a matter of seconds and the last thing I want to be doing with a semi-auto is to be remembering a round has to be racked. But again . . . it's personal choice.

As far as "losing control of your gun" . . . it is your responsibility to "be in control of your gun". As my instructors have stated time and again . . . if someone tries to take possession of your handgun, you'd better be fighting like #$%#^%$ for to have them take it from you is going to result with you being dead.

Just curious . . . you show you are from "west coast of USA" . . so I'm assuming Kalifornia. As Walingwolf states . . "Russian carry"? You obviously are enamored with your Tok which is fine . . everybody likes different things. If you are carrying legally, then you would have had to have taken classes to do so. What did YOUR instructors tell you as far as carrying? Just curious . . .

[Jupiter7]

Condition 3 leaves too many "what if's" open for me. I carry at all times, except while in the building at work, a round is always chambered.

[Outpost75]

Russian carry?

Chamber loaded. Hammer lowered to half-cock notch. NOT drop safe!!!!!~!

[Blackwater]

The only time I've ever used Cond. 3 is when my son was really young, and I was concerned about his safety. Kept it in the top drawer of the dresser, and by the time he was old enough to rack the slide, he was trained in its operation, and had fired it, and found the recoil more than he wanted. This let me rest easy, and if he'd ever needed it when I wasn't there, I knew he knew how to use it. My wife never seemed to even WANT to know how to use it, but I finally got her trained on it too.

Some 1911 holsters tend to knock the safety lever off safe, and with those, I've always used a thumb snap, and kept constant check on the safety's position. I think it's the Bianchi #1L that used to do that, but there are others from what I've seen and understand from others.

If handled properly (emphasis on the "properly"), a 1911 is entirely safe, and I've never had an accidental discharge with one. I've never deactivated the grip safeties as was once recommended by some, and never had a problem making them work.

Good, safe carry is more a matter of state of mind and training than it is any combination of "mechanical safeties." That's what I've found, at least. The wrong state of mind, and NO pistol is "safe," no matter how many "safeties" it has on it.

[preparehandbook]

In a TT33 in good condition, using military ammo, Russian carry is safe. It is an accepted method of carry in more than 20 countries.

The original hard primers could be set off from dropping the gun... off a building.

Modern primers aren't any stiffer than any other, and many surplus TT's have warn hammer packs leading to an unsafe half cock. A properly functioning TT on half cock is only 1/5 of travel so cannot set off the round if released. I have seen one in good shape hammered on a bench until the hammer broke and it did not fire the primer.

I do not carry this way, but I have enough spare TT's that one of these days I will see exactly how far a drop it will take to set off a modern style primer.

[gray wolf]

Why is condition 3 so slow for Americans, but the rest of the world does ok with it.

OK--simple drill,
Holster your >>> EMPTY <<< firearm have someone come within arms distance - contact distance, and draw there EMPTY firearm as if to shoot you .
Please don't tell me your going to draw against an already exposed gun that may be out or half way out of there holster.
Trying to beat action with reaction is silliness, and Doing so will put two guns in play.
A right handed person would be trying to tie up the bad guys gun with the left hand while making a contact body shot with the right hand.
Thus leaving no hand to rack a slide.

This is not beyond the realm of what can and does happen.

Can you draw and fire a combat accurate shot in 1 second or under 1.5 seconds?
Most gunfights are over in less than 3 or 4 seconds, So a 1.5 second draw and fire accurately has used up almost 50% of that time.
A highly trained person may try a take-a-way with the left hand. How highly trained are you ?

you-tube videos are far from my favorite cause they show many unskilled people doing some very unskilled things,
trying to show other unskilled people how to do things. But Here are a few that may drive the point home.
If you choose to ignore the fact that it can happen-then be it as it may.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKso6R10OJ0



and another
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqQAgtNMwDY

I won't comment on UN-holstered boot carry,
or on the very common pocket carry,
what if your bending down and fixing a shoe lace ?
or picking up a set of dropped car keys ? the gun is now compressed between your upper body and you almost have to stand to get the gun out.

Problem is most folks do not practice much at all, I know, all of us here practice till we don't get it wrong--right ?
Thing is people do not practice close contact situations,
but rather create shooting situations in there head that keeps them in there comfort zone.

I have taken a lot of CCW people that think they are prepared for the real world and in less than 5 minutes proved to them how unsafe they are with an empty chamber.
About as empty as there words are when they say: yea but that won't happen to me.

If you do not have a shot timer or have not downloaded an APT for your phone, here is one you can download to your desktop PC
It does not record shots but can be set for different times.
At least you can see if you can beat the set time on a draw and fire with an EMPTY gun.
The free download is very good to get the idea of how fast you are.

http://dryfirepractice.com/the-timer#

(http://dryfirepractice.com/the-timer#)


The original hard primers could be set off from dropping the gun... off a building.
I know I may be old, BUT-- I can't remember the last time I dropped a gun off a building.

[Walkingwolf]

Chamber loaded. Hammer lowered to half-cock notch. NOT drop safe!!!!!~!

Got it, but even though it is not drop safe do you really think that will make a difference to others. This is what has always bugged me about the do it my way or the highway gun crowd. It is a fruitless effort in futility trying to convince others to do it my way.

The only thing I try to convince others of is they have a choice, and that they alone take responsibility for that choice. My life is a lot calmer that way.

[Outpost75]

Got it, but even though it is not drop safe do you really think that will make a difference to others. This is what has always bugged me about the do it my way or the highway gun crowd. It is a fruitless effort in futility trying to convince others to do it my way. The only thing I try to convince others of is they have a choice, and that they alone take responsibility for that choice. My life is a lot calmer that way.

IF that is the only pistol you have, then you must decide your mode of carry based on the threat assessment and risk analysis. In a combat zone some people are willing to compromise safety to speed response time. In civilian personal defense situations, I don't feel that doing so is worth the risk.

My preference is to carry a handgun which is safe to carry with the chamber loaded, and which can be drawn and fired immediately by the trigger stroke only, without manipulation of an external safety lever. The gun must also permit an immediate repeat strike on a misfired primer, without requiring two hands to "tap, rack, bang!" It should also be capable of safe one-hand reholstering.

My preference is a revolver or a DA autoloader. I do have and practice with single-action revolvers and autoloaders, but they are not my first choice for defensive carry. However, if carrying one afield, if it is needed for that purpose, you dance with the girl you brought to the party.

[Babbott213]

A empty gun is only an object that can be thrown. Practice with your EDC folks and your best safety is your trigger finger. Keep it off the trigger until ready to fire.

[Char-Gar]

I am not a tactical maven, so split seconds don't really mean much to me.

Your first line of defense is never to go where trash people hang out.

Your second line of defense is to keep your eyes open at all time and be aware of who is around you and what they are doing.

If you do 1 and 2 above, it is not likely that the partial second it takes to rack the slide to chamber a round will prove fatal.

[rondog]

An unloaded gun is nothing but an unwieldy club. If you're attacked by a bad guy he's most likely to be on you before you know what's happening. Getting enough notice of an impending attack to be able to draw and rack the slide is a very slim chance. You may not even get the chance to cock the hammer, let alone the luxury of using both hands to rack a slide efficiently enough to charge your gun properly.

I want my pistol ready to go instantly. To me that means a 1911 in Con 1 or a DA revolver. I don't trust any kind of striker-fired pistols, especially those with no manual safeties. Flicking off a thumb safety is so fast, easy and second nature that it's essentially a non-action to me. As I draw, that's just where my thumb goes, and it's disengaged long before presentation.

Don't even get me started about ankle or boot carry -

[tinhorn97062]

I am not a tactical maven, so split seconds don't really mean much to me.

Your first line of defense is never to go where trash people hang out.

Your second line of defense is to keep your eyes open at all time and be aware of who is around you and what they are doing.

If you do 1 and 2 above, it is not likely that the partial second it takes to rack the slide to chamber a round will prove fatal.

Sound advice...I do both 1 and 2. Many places, I simply avoid. I have nothing to prove and no desire for a person to test whether or not I can "handle myself". But, evil folks can be found in many places....so I'm always armed and it's always ready to go.

[rondog]

Sound advice...I do both 1 and 2. Many places, I simply avoid. I have nothing to prove and no desire for a person to test whether or not I can "handle myself". But, evil folks can be found in many places....so I'm always armed and it's always ready to go.
I absolutely agree about 1 & 2! I avoid going out in public so much I'm dang near a hermit. And when I do, I'm hawk-eyeing everyone around so much people probably think I'm a weirdo. Has helped me spot some shady looking characters and hinky situations though.

[gray wolf]

An unloaded gun is nothing but an unwieldy club. If you're attacked by a bad guy he's most likely to be on you before you know what's happening. Getting enough notice of an impending attack to be able to draw and rack the slide is a very slim chance. You may not even get the chance to cock the hammer, let alone the luxury of using both hands to rack a slide efficiently enough to charge your gun properly.

I want my pistol ready to go instantly. To me that means a 1911 in Con 1 or a DA revolver. I don't trust any kind of striker-fired pistols, especially those with no manual safeties. Flicking off a thumb safety is so fast, easy and second nature that it's essentially a non-action to me. As I draw, that's just where my thumb goes, and it's disengaged long before presentation.

I couldn't agree more,
the issue is not one side of the argument trying to convince the other side.
You could do all kinds of drills that show how ineffective an empty chamber can be.
I posted two good videos that make it very clear and prove the point.
When the student is ready the teacher will appear.
some people are just not comfortable having a fully loaded gun on there person.

You are either 100% ready to fight and defend, or your not.
IMHO an empty chamber is being almost ready to save your life,
against someone who is 100% committed to take it.

[preparehandbook]

The mechanics of an empty chamber are simple enough to understand, the advantages and disadvantages are easy enough to sort out.

In my personal experience I think these specifics don't matter as much as people think. Most of the world carries condition three and I have not heard many soldiers/police complaining. It's only here in the land of negligent discharges that everybody stresses over that last 2/10ths of a second. When in reality most of them are going to waste a full 10 seconds stammering and wetting their pants before remembering they are even carrying a gun. (I am talking in general, not referring to anyone in this discussion or forum). I have actually seen several cases where the victim literally forgot they were carrying a gun until it was all over, and a hell of a lot where they were too scared to draw.

When I was young and foolish and was employed in harms way, I found that fractions of a second can matter. I am alive today because I was fast, because I trained for hundreds of hours... and because the other guy had a single action auto, hammer down, and I had a revolver. He was shot before he ever got close to bringing that hammer back.

Training is the key. You have to train until when you decide to engage everything is automatic.

condition 3 is the absolute fastest, safest, method of carry if have to switch between different guns. Rack the slide and it's ready to fire, whether it's a 1911, HP 35, or any of the plethora of overly complicated plastic tacticool pistols popular today.

I know someone who was shot while trying to sort out his decocker. His practiced draw and tight weaver stance didn't help when his gun failed to go BANG. He banged his magazine, racked it... No BANG. About this time the other guy guessed he was eventually going to get shot, racked his little Bryco/Lorcin/pot metal whatever and put a some rounds in my friend before running away. Everybody lived, but that was luck.

Now that I am old and fat I steer clear of dangerous situations, so other considerations are higher priority. I am around children that have strength to turn off a safety, but not near enough to rack a slide.

Who survives an armed encounter depends on 3 things:

1. Luck
2. Consistent Training.
3. Determination.

I son't care if my sidearm is duct taped to my forehead and my magazine is in my shoe, if I need to, I am going to get that sucker operational and end the threat. Because I am lucky and determined. (I can't say trained, I don't do duct tape, forehead, shoe-mag drills)

[Petrol & Powder]

Not trying to preach but if you're depending on a child's inability to operate the mechanics of a gun (chamber a round, cock a hammer, pull a heavy trigger, etc.) to prevent a child from shooting a gun, you're operating on the edge of a tragedy. If part of your reasoning for maintaining the pistol in condition 3 is the prevention of a child discharging the gun I have to ask why that child would have access to that gun in the first place?

Condition 3 is adequate when engaging an adversary at a distance but I think it is unacceptable at short distances. It's not the speed at which the gun can be put in action that places you at a disadvantage, it's the need for both hands to put the gun in action. You use the term "luck" quite a bit so I'll use your term - you'll be lucky if you can get even one hand on that gun in a close quarters attack.

As for Condition 3 being the best method when switching between types of firearms, I have to say that sounds good in concept but it shouldn't matter in reality because one shouldn't be switching between types of firearms dedicated for self defense.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, nor am I attempting to say my way is better than your way.
I am trying to get you to re-examine your thinking.

[gray wolf]

It seems all the empty chamber advocates are never going to get into a close quarter encounter.

It's the never going to happen to me mind set. ( never happen till it does )
And I am sure that a person with that mind set will never train for it.

Doing something once is not training. How many people train to at least get off the X while deploying a weapon.
IMHO a reasonable person would assume they can't draw and fire a gun that is not chambered with one hand.
Close quarter encounters often require the use of the off hand, once again, it leaves you one hand to draw and end the threat.

Lets get back to the kids for a moment, Or even a family member or someone Else's kid or a bystander.
THEY MIGHT BE IN YOUR LINE OF FIRE OR HAVE TO BE PUSHED ( MOVED ) out of the way.
You might have to push off a scared person tugging at you from behind.
One hand clears your line of fire while the other hand deploys your weapon.
It's unsound thinking to assume it can't happen.

The UN-chambered gun argument goes much deeper than what lies on the surface.
That's why it is hard to present facts, The will to carry a fully loaded gun is not there.
It's purely a psychological issue. One that a forum discussion can not solve.

IMHO the argument about a kid picking up a gun that is not chambered is safer in preventing an accident.
Is just another indication of lack of responsibility on the gun owner.

It's a discussion that never gets solved because facts are negated by a mind set.

[str8wal]

Condition 3 is fine until the time when you are pumping gas in your vehicle and a perp comes up from behind and is on you before you can draw and rack. It is a tad difficult to rack a slide while your off hand is fending off an attacker. Don't think it can happen to you? It happens more often than you think. You never really know when the S will HTF, so condition one for me anytime I leave the house.

[Love Life]

Condition 1 is perfectly safe as long as you don't shoot yourself.

[jmort]

"Condition 1 is perfectly safe as long as you don't shoot yourself."


Or someone else by mistake. There are few people that I would want to be near with their 1911 in condition 1.

[Love Life]

"Condition 1 is perfectly safe as long as you don't shoot yourself."


Or someone else by mistake. There are few people that I would want to be near with their 1911 in condition 1.

Just one of the risks we live with in order to have our freedom. As long as all the safeties work, it falls on the user. I prefer condition one. Others prefer 3. I just get very loud with people who practice unsafe firearms handling around me.

[gray wolf]

I just get very loud with people who practice unsafe firearms handling around me.

WOW!!! I can't agree more.

Finger on the trigger is one that I find very difficult for some folks to correct.

I have a gun and that's all that matters is another one.

Those things only happen to other people.

This can't be happening to me.

It's my Birthday, why is this happening ?

I will deal with it when it happens, wrong, you will revert to your level of training.

Talking with a loaded gun and pointing the gun in the direction of the conversation.

Lack of training--lack of training to instill muscle memory--Lack of brain cells--

In order to train many people you need to get past the cortex part of the Brain.
The scientific, problem solving, lets see how do I fix this problem, area.

But in order to reach the cerebellum part of the brain, ( the cave man part ) the do it now part, the I don't have time to think this out part,
I must act now I don't have time to put it down on paper and figure it out part.
We must first get through the cortex area, By the way this area will shut down under extreme stress and adrenaline flow.
So things not practiced under some type of stress cannot be replicated under stress.

I get tired of saying it; We do not rise to the occasion, we do not show a gun and the bad guy turns to dust and blows away.

I have a big problem with folks that just get a gun and think it's all finished.
They actually think they are ready to carry a firearm and use it safely and adequately in a high stress ballistic situation.
How about the people that take a class in order to get a CCW ?
Fact is almost all CCW level 1 training does not involve drawing from a holster. It's considered TO DANGEROUS, and it is.
People do not take into account that gun fights begin and end from the holster, Yes I know that home protection may render a gun from
a bed stand that is not holstered.

People do not train to a level of proficiency that renders them ready for encounters with bad guys.

bringing us back to the original subject matter of this discussion.

I can't buy into the argument that if it's good enough for the military it's good enough for me.
The military combat arena is totally different that the street. Many situations do not involve hands on contact with the people trying to kill you.
I will bet that the troops that clear dwellings, or participate in an area that may present an enemy at close quarter, do not have an empty chamber. The general population of troops perhaps.

I really do not think that SWAT people carry an empty chamber.
Yes we are not SWAT folks, point is if you are in a situation that trully demands deadly force, it demands it now.

Many people do not take into account levels of force,
many states say that only a level of force necessary to stop a threat is justified.
then you better be ready to justify what you did by accurately articulating the facts as they happened.

You can't shoot someone for getting in your space with a whiffle ball bat.
Can I ethically and morally shoot this person, Do they present a lethal threat to my life ?

Eyes are the windows to the soul,
But hands are the windows to intentions.

Sorry for the thread drift, maybe we need a sub category for CCW self defense.

[preparehandbook]

Not trying to preach but if you're depending on a child's inability to operate the mechanics of a gun (chamber a round, cock a hammer, pull a heavy trigger, etc.) to prevent a child from shooting a gun, you're operating on the edge of a tragedy. If part of your reasoning for maintaining the pistol in condition 3 is the prevention of a child discharging the gun I have to ask why that child would have access to that gun in the first place?

I agree completely with what you say.

I think of it more as a last line of defense. When I am out, my gun is on my person, when I get home it goes into a lockbox by the door. I have some health issues that could, under rare circumstances, result in me losing consciousness. It is a long shot, but better safe than sorry.





As for Condition 3 being the best method when switching between types of firearms, I have to say that sounds good in concept but it shouldn't matter in reality because one shouldn't be switching between types of firearms dedicated for self defense.

I worked for a couple decades in a couple jobs where switching guns was a frustrating reality. I had my choice of sidearm and BUG, but if I had to go with a client to Mexico (many times a year), I got issued something else there, and it could be anything, but older single action autos are pretty popular down there; .45 llama, 1911, Star 9mm. We did a lot of travelling and also my boss loved gun fads and seemed to put no value on standardization... I'm just grateful he didn't decide Gyrojets were the gun of the future. But he did go through a magnum revolver faze, then a wannabe bren ten period (CZs, but not in 10mm).

Nowadays I guess this is just not an issue. I have gone through 3 carry guns in the last 4 years. P64 (it was cheap) Smith 6906, now a Tokarev (more bears, more winter clothing to get through).

I do agree with all the points you've raised.

[preparehandbook]

Condition 1 is perfectly safe as long as you don't shoot yourself.

I had a 1911 go off in the holster once (AMT Hardballer) and have been sour on condition one ever since.

It was a mechanical malfunction. The safety got brushed off, when I bumped the grip safety taking it out of the holster it fired. I was essentially unhurt.

I know the problem was a fluke, but the fact that having the safety get bumped off more than a couple times is too much for me. Especially being privy to way too many LEO NDs with condition one carry.

[Bonz]

I carry either a S&W Bodyguard .380 (new generation) or a Sig Sauer P290RS with a round in the chamber. Both pistols are DAO and have "re-strike" capability. The S&W Bodyguard .380 has an external safety but I never use it. The Sig Sauer P290RS does not have an external safety but does include a firing pin safety block that blocks the firing pin from any forward movement unless the trigger is depressed. Neither pistol have a magazine disconnect safety.

[Love Life]

Gray Wolf- REMF and POG back on the main base in the rear with the gear were often condition 4 with a magazine accessible. Meat eaters in the street were condition one whenever they left the wire and on post.

Preparedhandbook-It is understandable that an incident like that will make you gunshy of that carry method. How one carries is their choice, but Gray Wolf is hitting the nail on the head with his talk on practice. 5,000 repetitions should take care of it.

[waksupi]

I had a 1911 go off in the holster once (AMT Hardballer) and have been sour on condition one ever since.

It was a mechanical malfunction. The safety got brushed off, when I bumped the grip safety taking it out of the holster it fired. I was essentially unhurt.

I know the problem was a fluke, but the fact that having the safety get bumped off more than a couple times is too much for me. Especially being privy to way too many LEO NDs with condition one carry.


If it went off, you also had your finger on the trigger. Operator error.

[Petrol & Powder]

If it went off, you also had your finger on the trigger. Operator error.

/\Agreed/\

And goes a long way to explaining the OP's reluctance to carry with a chambered round.

[pretzelxx]

I carry a striker fired gun, with a grip safety and I carry with a round in the chamber. The way I feel is if theres ever a threat would I die because I need to chamber a round? I just be extra safe when loading and unloading/holstering.

BTW I carry iwb at the 5 o'clock with an alien gear tuck 2.0 and the only issue I had, was my shirts being too sort when I first got the carry permit and a crappy belt. Now all I worry about is will I be able to shoot accurate and fast enough if I need to...

[preparehandbook]

If it went off, you also had your finger on the trigger. Operator error.

My finger wasn't on the trigger, The gun was still fully in the holster. That is why I described it as a mechanical failure, rather than a ND.

To clarify:



A mechanical failure is when the weapon experiences a failure causing a discharge. such as when a round is fired upon closing the bolt, or when you touch a grip safety and the weapon fires.
A negligent discharge is when the operator discharges the weapon when they should not.

[preparehandbook]

/\Agreed/\

And goes a long way to explaining the OP's reluctance to carry with a chambered round.

You sound unfamiliar with the 1911.

A 1911 to fire properly must meet several conditions.



Round in chamber
slide in battery
hammer cocked
Manual safety off
Grip Safety depressed
Trigger pressed


I described:



Weapon in holster (no trigger access)
Manual safety off
Weapon fired upon touching grip safety


Since it fired, obviously the weapon was charged and in battery.

A properly functioning 1911 will not fire when the grip safety is depressed and the trigger is not. If it does, it is by definition experiencing a mechanical malfunction. In this case a burr on the hammer was determined to be the culprit. AMT fixed it, but the gun was troublesome in general.

[35remington]

Prepare, your claim of a 1911 firing in this manner is the first I've ever heard of. Be not surprised when I figure that won't ever happen to me. Because it doesn't seem to happen to the rest of us here either.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm very familiar with the 1911 and take a bit of offense in the schooling you just gave me. I don't need a dissertation on the operation of said pistol.

I'm not buying that it "just went off" and your explanation of it being in a holster is your version of what you think happened. I'm certain you truly believe that's what happened and I'm not calling you a liar. I think something depressed the trigger. I don't think I'm alone on this forum in that opinion.
Sending it to AMT and having a repair done does not mean the fault that was repaired is the fault that caused the negligent discharge. It just means a repair was done.

[gray wolf]

When people safety check a 1911 many people do not do what is known as the ping test.
I will try to explain it best I can.

The pistol is cocked by working the slide, the safety is swiped ON, then the trigger is pressed with about 2 or 3 times the normal amount
that would fire the pistol.

Then the safety is gently swiped off, the pistol is held up close to your ear and the hammer slowly brought to the rear.
If you here a metallic PING!! it's the sear slipping off the hammer hook, not enough to drop the hammer, but it has moved.
If this occurs the safety is deemed unsafe. Again many people do not perform this test.

I say, I think-- that if this situation gets bad enough the gun can fire when the safety is dropped.
I know the safety blocks the sear and the hammer, so we may need a high class expert to say for sure if this can happen.

I am not trying to defend anyone with this, I know if it fails the test the safety needs to be welded up or replaced.
Many people that do a shade tree safety replacement do not know to test for this.

If I am wrong here I sure do not mind being told so, I apologize for posting this and not knowing the complete answer.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.shtml


The next check is to determine if the thumb safety is holding the sear from partially disengaging from the hammer. ( I call this the click test - and remember - DO NOT TOUCH THE TRIGGER after disengaging the thumb safety.) After disengaging the thumb safety, place the hammer area of the pistol close to your so that you can hear the slightest click when you run this test. With the hammer area of the pistol held close to your ear, pull the hammer to the rear very slightly. Do not touch the hammer at all until you have placed the pistol near your ear. If you hear a very slight click when you touch the hammer this is the sound of the sear jumping back into full engagement with the hammer full cock hooks. Remember, you must engage the thumb safety, pull and release the trigger, disengage the thumb safety, holt the pistol near your ear, and then just touch the hammer slightly to the rear. If you hear a click the safety is allowing the sear to move slightly out of engagement with the hammer. The hammer hooks that the sear engages with are only .022" thick as made at the factory and if the pistol has had a trigger job done the hooks could have been shortened to .019". Any movement of the sear could leave the sear engaging the hammer with only a few thousandths. NOT SAFE! If you hear a click you must have the safety replaced or welded up and re-cut to stop any sear movement with the thumb safety engaged.
Next you will check the grip safety. to test the grip safety, first cock the pistol. Then with the pistol cocked, thumb safety off, and the grip safety not depressed, pull the trigger firmly and release. The hammer should not fall. If the hammer falls when the trigger is firmly pulled without the grip safety depressed the grip safety is defective. The grip safety must be repaired before you load or fire the pistol.
The next step is checking the grip safety is to determine that the grip safety is not allowing any sear movement jus as you did in the thumb safety test. This is a repeat of the click test. To test for this you run the grip safety test as just described and then place the pistol next to your ear. Touch the hammer slightly to the rear and listen for a click. If you hear a click the grip safety is not blocking the movement of the trigger enough to prevent slight movement of the sear away from the hammer. Again this test is just a repeat of the click test that you did to check the hammer. Remember, do not depress the grip safety during the test and do not touch the hammer until you have placed the hammer next to your ear to hear the click.

[Outpost75]

M1911 without a firing pin block safety is not drop safe, sorry, wrong answer.

[gray wolf]

Not trying to beat a dead horse here but if it helps someone that's good.


Q: The one and only problem I’ve ever had with the classic 1911 is having to carry “cocked & locked.” In your opinion, are the double action only models offered by Para-Ordnance the way to go when safety is concerned?

There are really two parts to your question so I’ll deal with them separately.
First, yes the P-O LDA is an excellent option when the cocked and locked 1911 is a problem. Charles Riggs wrote a nice article for me on the LDA which addresses this:
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/para-ord-745.htm
Second, I believe that the concern about the safety of the “cocked and locked” (condition 1) pistol is more a matter of perceptions than reality. It looks scary. When you’re new to the 1911, it feels scary. I started out with wheel guns and it took me some time to get used to cocked and locked. But, given the huge number of M1911 pistols which are out there in service, you would think that we would hear more about accidental discharges if this were a problem. The fact is that we don’t because they don’t go off by themselves. I have only heard one story from one police officer who claimed one went off in his holster when it bumped against a banister as he descended a set of stairs, but when I pushed him for details, he refused to say anything more. He wouldn’t tell me the kind of holster, if the gun had been modified, its state of repair or any other circumstances. This led me to believe that he was either blowing smoke or there was something about the gun he didn’t want to tell me.
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/safety_on1.jpgSafety On 1911

What do we mean by “cocked and locked”? The M1911 pistol is loaded by inserting a charged magazine and racking the slide. This action chambers a cartridge and cocks the hammer of the pistol. The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks” the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-cock notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.
But what about the cocked and locked pistol taking a hard hit on the hammer? Could it go off then? Listen to this report from Terry Erwin:
“About ten years ago, I was working as an armed-plain clothed-security officer. During a struggle with an arrested subject the Combat Commander I was carrying cocked and locked, holstered in a Bianchi “Pancake” on my strong side hip, struck the center door jam of a set of double doors. The center door jam was knocked loose, and two belt loops were torn off of my jeans. The hammer was bent inward and the safety would not move. A gunsmith had to press out the safety, hammer pin, and sear pin. The edge of the sear had cracked off, and a piece of one hammer hook also cracked off. The gun did not discharge upon that impact. I have carried several Colt’s, including that repaired Commander for most of my adult life, and have never once worried about the weapon (myself or someone else is a different story, but not the gun).”
The 1911 is a single action semi-automatic pistol so it has to be cocked in order to fire. People deal with this in one of three ways: cocked and locked (condition 1), or they chamber a round and carefully lower the hammer (condition 2) so they have to thumb cock the gun to fire it, or they carry it with an empty chamber and rack the slide when they bring it into action (condition 3). I would advise either condition 1 or 3 for home defense, but not condition 2. I don’t advise condition 2 under any circumstances. (For more discussion on the conditions see “The Conditions of Readiness (http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm)”) If you are only using the gun for home defense, there is nothing wrong with leaving it in condition 3 with a loaded magazine but with an empty chamber – as long as you have the presence of mind to load the weapon under stress. (Don’t give me a “duh” on that one because weird things happen to one’s mind when someone is trying to get into your house at 3 AM).
When the gun is cocked and locked, the sear is blocked from releasing the hammer. Further, unless a firing grip is on the pistol, thumb safety swept off, and the trigger is pulled, the gun will not go off. For my money, this is much safer than a Glock or some of the other new pistol designs which have no external safety. The Glock, by the way, is also pre-cocked which is why it can have a much lighter trigger than a real double action gun. It could be said that the Glock is “cocked and unlocked” which is called “condition zero” with the M1911. Anecdotally, we hear of many more “accidental discharges” with Glocks than with M1911 pattern guns. The 1911 has two manual safeties. It may look scary, but it is really much safer than many current designs.
If an M1911 has been butchered internally, all bets are off, and I have seen a couple like that. But if the gun is in good repair, it is safe and will not go off unless the thumb safety is swept off, a firing grip is on the handle, and the trigger is pulled. If you buy a used M1911 pattern pistol, be sure to have it checked out by a competent gunsmith just to insure that the gun has not been modified or made dangerous by a tinkerer and that it is in good working order.
A sideline: of the pistols I have carried, the M1911 is the only one I carry with the safeties engaged. I carry S&W and Beretta DA/SA guns with the safety off. Glocks and wheel guns don’t have a safety at all (and no, I don’t consider the trigger flange on the Glock a real manual safety). In this respect, the cocked and locked M1911 is the safest pistol. It is unique in the fact that it has not one but two manual safeties which have to be acted upon to make the gun fire.
Now, to argue the other direction for just a second, do I feel safer with a true DA/SA with a firing pin block and a manual safety like a S&W or Beretta? Yes, in an absolute sense, I do when I’m in the world of theoretical possibilities, but again, I think this is more a matter of feeling than reality. Some weird combination of events could conspire to take the safety off, push down the grip safety and pull the trigger all at the same time, but I can’t visualize what that circumstance would be. Nevertheless, when I’m backpacking and I know the gun may have to ride in my backpack and flop around in a tent with me, I will often carry a S&W DA/SA just because some of these strange possibilities come to mind. For the purposes for which a gun is needed, I feel safer with the M1911 because I know I’m going to shoot it better and faster than these other options.
I have seen “accidental discharges” with M1911′s, but without exception they have been instances in which the finger was on the trigger or the fire control group had been modified by an incompetent. I have yet to document a single case in which an M1911 simply experienced a catastrophic failure and went off while cocked and locked. And I do hunt for such stories because this is a concern for a lot of people.
Another interesting “safety feature” of the M1911 was first observed by Massad Ayoob. In the event that a bad guy might get your gun away from you, confusion about the controls of the cocked and locked M1911 could cause him enough hesitation to give you a chance to either get the gun back or flee. The current generation of thugs have cut their teeth on double action semi-autos and revolvers and many do not know how the M1911 operates. Ayoob tested this with people who were unfamiliar with pistols by giving them unloaded pistols of various designs and measuring how long it took them to figure out the controls and make the hammer drop. The M1911 proved to be considerably slower to fire than double action guns in the hands of those who are unfamiliar with the gun.
Q: Is the cocked and locked M1911 a problem for people who are new to firearms and want to keep one for home defense?
In my opinion, cocked and locked does not present either a safety or handling problem. In fact, I would be inclined to argue the other way, that it is very intuitive and simple, and very quickly brought into action. 90 years of successful service tends to bear this out. All you have to do is to sweep the thumb safety down with your thumb and the gun is ready to fire. It is a natural motion and people learn it quickly.
Other issues come into play when you’re considering keeping an 1911 loaded for home defense, such as if you have small children in the home and how much access your friends have to your home, but there is nothing inherently dangerous with having a cocked an locked gun at the ready. If you have really small children who are too young to train on firearms safety, then condition 3 – empty chamber – is definitely the way to go because the child will not know to rack the slide to load it and they will lack the strength in their hands and arms to do it. If you are a very social person who has a lot of parties and people running through your house all the time, then you really should wear it, concealed of course, so that the pistol is under your immediate control and you don’t have to worry about someone finding it and doing something stupid. If that’s not possible, lock it up or find a smarter circle of friends who won’t go through your stuff when you’re not looking.
Finally, the real cure for cocked and locked anxiety is to get “un-new” to the gun. Shoot it, get used to it, learn it so that you don’t have to think about it. Familiarity will dispel that anxiety. Get some training if at all possible. Pistols really require some training and practice to use effectively. A good training session with a qualified professional trainer will help to separate the fact from the fantasy about what you can actually do with your pistol when the chips are down.
I feel that the 1911 is the fastest, best shooting pistol which has ever been built, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t some other good designs out there. You should be comfortable with your gun, and if you just can’t get over that fear about the cocked hammer, find another gun that feels good to you. I love the 1911 because of the way it shoots, but I had some nervousness with them when I was new to them. Practice and familiarity made it go away.
“Due to misplaced concerns about safety and liability, the police have shunned the Condition One (Cocked and Locked) SA auto, mostly in favor of DA autos that aren’t any easier to use than a DA revolver. Claims that the SA auto is unsafe or requires special training are hogwash, something that too many people accept without challenge. And if you don’t believe it, come see me at any CTASAA course and I’ll prove it to you.” – Chuck Taylor

[bruce drake]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdZ3hZ8y-w

Forgive the older vhs-quality video and the Saddam Hussein/Tom Selleck mustaches (a requirement for Middle Eastern men still)but Israeli Instinctive Shooting has been my preferred tactical shooting style for over 25 years.

It allows me to retain all my auto pistols (Tok33), 9mm P-35 and M9, and both of my 1911s in Condition 2 (mag chambered with empty chambers) and still maintain control and minimize accidental discharges with a very fast time to bring it into action if needed. Punch the pistol forward with your grip hand forward while pulling the slide back with your "weak" and releasing it to chamber the round for firing. I have modified it from the horizontal at chin level to more where I'm charging the slide as it is clearing the holdster and moving into the ready position. The meat finger stays out at all times of course when upholstering but the rest is a pretty good video.

Bruce

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

the right gun the right holster I am condition 0 ready to fire with just a squeeze of the trigger or condition 1 swipe off thumb safety then squeeze trigger

but the wrong gun and or wrong holster and condition 3 empty chamber gives you a gun a lot closer than the car but not as readily available as 0 or 1

make the decision based on the gun and holster

some of the Russian or surplus guns it is probably better to carry condition 3 if you must carry that gun


not sure there is much of a time condition 2 is ever a good idea 2 would be round in chamber hammer down for a 1911 easing that hammer down is almost asking for trouble make sure it's always done in a safe direction

[Petrol & Powder]

".......Finally, the real cure for cocked and locked anxiety is to get “un-new” to the gun. Shoot it, get used to it, learn it so that you don’t have to think about it. Familiarity will dispel that anxiety. Get some training if at all possible. Pistols really require some training and practice to use effectively......"

There's a lot of truth in the quote above.

In years past; I trained with, carried, maintained and shot, some type of 1911 variant (usually a LW Commander). I no longer carry a 1911 but I will not disparage the design. I was comfortable and proficient with a SA auto carried "cocked & locked" but ultimately decided there were better options for me. I will say that any handgun carried for self defense requires a great deal of familiarity. I constantly come across people that are shockingly unfamiliar with the guns they carry. Furthermore, those same people often seem to prefer to remain unfamiliar with their tools. Spend some time when the tools you use!!

[preparehandbook]

I'm very familiar with the 1911 and take a bit of offense in the schooling you just gave me. I don't need a dissertation on the operation of said pistol.

I apologize for my rudeness.

When you seemed confused as to how the malfunction occurred I presumed a lack of familiarity in the platform. i now see that my presumption was incorrect.

There was no offense intended. I did not intend to disrespect you in any way. Rereading my post I see how my wording was disrespectful and I should have caught it myself. You are justified in feeling offended and it is my fault for wording my comment inconsiderately. I am sorry.


I'm not buying that it "just went off" and your explanation of it being in a holster is your version of what you think happened. I'm certain you truly believe that's what happened and I'm not calling you a liar. I think something depressed the trigger. I don't think I'm alone on this forum in that opinion.
Sending it to AMT and having a repair done does not mean the fault that was repaired is the fault that caused the negligent discharge. It just means a repair was done.

I wasn't really intending to go into any depth on the matter, but I think it is the best way to clarify the incident. I tried to find the article about it from the time, but It's somewhere in a pile of magazines.

I don't know about nowadays, but back then when an officer's gun fires in the holster in the middle of a room full of officers, there is no small amount of consideration as to why it happened.

This isn't a case of billy-joe-bob let one off, now let's blame the maker. This is a case of "AMT is no longer an acceptable service replacement sidearm"

We were at our department range trying to sort out whether or not the holster, weapon, or officers were responsible for 1911 safeties getting bumped off in a service holster. This was the 80s and officers had begun to use extended safeties and slide releases, also synthetic holsters were becoming popular, especially with retention features. There was no shortage of resistance to some of these trends.

The AMT in particular had it's supporters (myself included) as a more modern 1911, allowing officers to have advanced features without having a "custom gun" (defense attorneys demonized these).

Some felt the extended safeties were a liability and should be prohibited entirely. Some felt the holster was at fault, some felt that the officers were either bumping the safety or forgetting to engage it at all (the "Officers should only carry revolvers" crowd)

I was promoting the hardballer's longer safety, halfway through a magazine I engaged the safety and holstered the weapon to compare it with another officers 1911 with a different safety. The officer next to and behind me pointed out that he thought I knocked off my safety while holstering.

Trying to look at a hip holstered 1911 while wearing it is like a dog looking at it's tail, so I am trying to look down at how the safety, holster, belt, all interact, but every time I turn, I change how they sit. The other officer is squatting behind me looking at the how the gun rides.

I went to remove the harballer from my holster and the instant my fingertips brushed the grip safety, it fired. The bullet (200ish grain cast SWC, loaded mild) came out of the holster, into my pant leg, grazed down my thigh, exited my pants at the knee. It put a whole in the linoleum floor but bounced off the underlying concrete and landed a few feet away.

As you can imagine there was a great deal of excitement, not the least of which mine as I tried to figure out if I was injured.

After some examination of the AMT we found there was a rough spot when you cocked the hammer, we were unable to get it to act up when trying it unloaded. The gun was delivered to our department armorer.

A month or so before an officer was at our range with a brand new AMT and his entire first magazine discharged with one pull of the trigger. It got sent back to the factory and corrected. But after my incident the AMTs were definitely considered suspect.

Our armorer found a big burr that caused the problem IIRC it was holding the hammer back and pushing the sear down. I could be wrong about the specifics, I was soured on the gun by this point. AMT offered to make it right, and blamed the holster for the manual safety issue. The holster maker was having none of this and blamed the safety coming off on operator error. In the end the department decided it was done with the AMT and took them off of our approved list, and out of consideration for any contracts.

[preparehandbook]

It's a discussion that never gets solved because facts are negated by a mind set.

This is not true in my case.

You have convinced me.

I carefully reread your posts. I realized that much of what I have been doing is accommodating situations that no longer apply to me, for instance, I do not switch carry guns so having a technique that addressed that is silly. I am a stubborn old man and find myself still trying to fight the battles of my youth rather than my world as it is today.

Condition 3 has it's place, but for CC it's not the optimal choice. I guess if I had to carry something like a bryco where I could not trust the safety at all, it might be a necessity until a better gun was acquired, but that is not my situation.

I tried running some drills with my gun condition one and it feels pretty good, about the same speed as a condition 2 draw, but I think the condition one draw makes for a little more solid grip while bringing it around.


Anyway. You have won me over. Your position is the correct one. I thank you for your patience and input.

[Walkingwolf]

the right gun the right holster I am condition 0 ready to fire with just a squeeze of the trigger or condition 1 swipe off thumb safety then squeeze trigger

but the wrong gun and or wrong holster and condition 3 empty chamber gives you a gun a lot closer than the car but not as readily available as 0 or 1

make the decision based on the gun and holster

some of the Russian or surplus guns it is probably better to carry condition 3 if you must carry that gun


not sure there is much of a time condition 2 is ever a good idea 2 would be round in chamber hammer down for a 1911 easing that hammer down is almost asking for trouble make sure it's always done in a safe direction

This is the case for every single gun in service. Were these guns not functioned tested before issue by the armorer? The safety on a 1911 blocks the sear NOT the hammer, so for the safety to be on in the first place the hammer has to be in position. NOBODY should carry a gun they have not personally function tested.

I just checked my 1911, the safety will NOT go on until the hammer has engaged the sear. I encourage others to clear their 1911's and check theirs. Maybe mine is flawed, if it is they all should be flawed. Bur or not if the AMT is made to spec it will not set the safety until the sear is in the hammer notch. I also checked to see if the safety will go on if the trigger is stuck back. Safety will not go on with the hammer back, and the trigger pulled.

Not saying it didn't happen, but IMO the armorer should have been fired, if the gun did not function properly. The only way I can see this happening is if the sear had been tampered with, wrong cut on the sear. This HAS happened, not with just AMT, it comes from people doing a trigger job that do not know what they are doing.

[gray wolf]

The safety on a 1911 blocks the sear NOT the hammer, so for the safety to be on in the first place the hammer has to be in position.

sorry but your wrong
The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.

[Uncle R.]

Not trying to beat a dead horse here but if it helps someone that's good.<snip>
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/safety_on1.jpgSafety On 1911

The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.
<snip>

I love the 1911 because of the way it shoots, but I had some nervousness with them when I was new to them. Practice and familiarity made it go away.
<snip>


[QUOTE=Petrol & Powder;3405326]".......Finally, the real cure for cocked and locked anxiety is to get “un-new” to the gun. Shoot it, get used to it, learn it so that you don’t have to think about it. Familiarity will dispel that anxiety. Get some training if at all possible. Pistols really require some training and practice to use effectively......"

There's a lot of truth in the quote above.
<snip>

QUOTE]

Thank you gray wolf for a most excellent post. In the course of my musings on 1911s and carry methods I didn't consider that the safety will prevent hammer fall even in the event of a broken sear. You could almost say that the safety does "lock the hammer" on a 1911 - at least it prevents the hammer from falling all the way if the sear should fail. I learned something here today.
Again - thank you!

I confess that like many I was a bit nervous at first about carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. Expert opinion, study and careful reflection on the mechanics of the pistol convinced me that it was reasonable to do so. I had decades of experience and practice at shooting 1911s but very little experience at carrying them. Now after a year or so of frequent carry in condition one I'm much more comfortable with the idea.

Uncle R.

[Walkingwolf]

sorry but your wrong
The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.


The hammer will partially fall, but the safety keeps both the trigger, and hammer locked by THE SEAR. The safety will not engage unless the sear is engaged. The hammer cut for the safety is an additional safe guard if the sear breaks.

One cannot have the safety on unless the sear has engaged the full cock notch. When the safety is taken off the sear is already engaged, with spring pressure. Without a trigger pull, maybe a gun drop, the hammer should not fall because the safety is turned off. UNLESS the sear has an improper cut.

[gray wolf]

I just checked my 1911, the safety will NOT go on until the hammer has engaged the sear.it's not supposed to I encourage others to clear their 1911's and check theirs. Maybe mine is flawed, if it is they all should be flawed. Bur or not if the AMT is made to spec it will not set the safety until the sear is in the hammer notch. as it should be on a 1911 also checked to see if the safety will go on if the trigger is stuck back. Safety will not go on with the hammer back, and the trigger pulled. not supposed to do that either

You make statements like this and then you want to tell me how a 1911 safety works ??
Not sure what your point is but it sounds like your safety is doing what JMB built it to do.

one more time

The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks” the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-cock notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.

[Walkingwolf]

Not sure what your point is but it sounds like your safety is doing what JMB built it to do.

The point is simple, I doubt a bur kept the sear from engaging the hammer with the safety on. If the safety did get knocked off the sear was already engaged with the hammer. Not saying it didn't happen, but I can't see how unless the sear had an improper cut.

[Blackwater]

Well, many good points have been made, and none have been entirely wrong or right. This is one of those questions that's always good for an argument because all sorts of scenarios can be imagined where this or that comes into play that rarely if ever seems to happen. The simplest and most direct answer is usually the best, though, and most particularly when it comes to the question of whether you get to go home or to the morgue or hospital. This is why my own philosophy is that if attacks can't always be anticipated, one really needs to stay aware of anyone who gets too close or telegraphs their intent in any sort of way, and actually most usually do, but aren't recognized as such. Just staying aware and dubious of anyone who makes any sort of choice that puts them a little too close for comfort is a good philosophy and tactic. Thereafter, it's really an issue of how quickly you can bring your gun into play, and for that, nothing beats Cond. 1.

Cond. 3 was developed for the US Military, and drummed into millions of servicemen by feeding them all sorts of proposed scenarios that might come into play. They also, and this is the salient point for them, and I suspect the determinant, take all comers, some of whom are not very bright and not gun-savy. For this situation, it'd be crazy NOT to go with Cond. 3, but that doesn't make it desirable for self defense carry at all! For self defense, if you're really serious, and want to carry, that's pretty much ipso facto Cond. 1 simply because any other mode is giving the bad guys more of a chance than anyone needs to be giving them.

Carrying a gun is NOT the same as being "protected" or "safe." It just gives you a fighting chance to survive, and that's all it can ever do. People can carry any way they want to, of course. It's still a free enough country for that. But those who are serious practice, and those who practice should be able to handle Cond. 1 with no problem. I've carried that way for many years almost universally, and I've used holsters that tended to knock the manual safety off, but still never even thought about an AD. With a good and proper holster, that should never be even a possibility. But what's in the minds of many is .... let's call it "highly varied," OK? And sometimes, we shooters can think ourselves right out of an awful lot of good ideas, like Cond. 1, among others. There really IS such a thing as "overthinking" some questions. Good, simple answers to good, simple, straight-forward questions are still usually the best, but of course, not for everybody.

[Lawyerman]

Never, ever. If I NEED a gun, I NEED it now and don't need to be fiddling around. Every thing that you have to do to bring the gun into action is one more opportunity to screw it up.....It's already not your lucky day, you're having to draw a weapon to use deadly force on another human being....Why push your luck even further? At some point, it simply runs out.....

[MtGun44]

Condition One: only.

[NavyVet1959]

I carry either a glock 23 or an XDs .40 in locked and cocked condition. I practice getting a gun into shooting condition from all manner of conditions because you never know what gun you will end up with in critical situations. The trick is to keep the booger hook out of the trigger well until you need to squeeze the trigger, and not to fiddle with a loaded gun unless you are drawing it to use.

Unless you've added a *real* safety to your Glock, it's not "locked and cocked". It is in Condition-0 since if you pull the trigger, it goes bang. It is *possible* to put a Glock in basically Condition-2 though. You have to disassemble it, load a round in the barrel, and then reassemble it. At this point, you need to just cock the firearm by a short movement of the slide.

If I'm carrying a Glock, I'm carrying it in Condition-0 and relying on a hard type OWB ABS/Kydex holster to protect the trigger.

If I'm carrying a M1911, I'm carrying it in Condition-1 or sometimes in Condition-2. In all my years, I've never had a problem with an AD while lowering the hammer on any type of firearm. I can definitely cock the hammer one handed if need be with any of my SA M1911s.

Some of the guns that I have carried were DAO and even when they had a safety, I usually did not use it. The heavy trigger acted as a bit of a safety mechanism, just like with a DA revolver.

EDITED 2016.01.22:


One of my "1911s" that I have is a Para P14.45 with the LDA trigger. With it, you have to have your hand on the grip safety to be able to cock the hammer, so it pretty much a two handed job (unless you can do some sort of contortionist hand movements).

I've also had an AD on an AR chambered in .300 AAC since I posted this. It was a slam-fire (possibly due to a proud primer) that happened in my reloading area and occurred when I released the released the BCG on a round that I had just reloaded. I was having rounds that were not always chambering, so I was needing to adjust the OAL on the rounds. It took a small chunk out of the carpet and the concrete in the floor. The bullet itself seems to have just "disappeared".

[Walkingwolf]

Unless you've added a *real* safety to your Glock, it's not "locked and cocked". It is in Condition-0 since if you pull the trigger, it goes bang. It is *possible* to put a Glock in basically Condition-2 though. You have to disassemble it, load a round in the barrel, and then reassemble it. At this point, you need to just cock the firearm by a short movement of the slide.

If I'm carrying a Glock, I'm carrying it in Condition-0 and relying on a hard type OWB ABS/Kydex holster to protect the trigger.

If I'm carrying a M1911, I'm carrying it in Condition-1 or sometimes in Condition-2. In all my years, I've never had a problem with an AD while lowering the hammer on any type of firearm. I can definitely cock the hammer one handed if need be with any of my SA M1911s.

Some of the guns that I have carried were DAO and even when they had a safety, I usually did not use it. The heavy trigger acted as a bit of a safety mechanism, just like with a DA revolver.

I carried condition two with my 1911 as a LEO, we were not allowed to skeer the public with a cocked hammer. I too never had a problem lowering the hammer. It is a very simple procedure, block hammer with thumb of weak hand while lowering with thumb of strong hand. All done while the gun is pointed in a safe direction. Anytime doing anything with a loaded gun it is a good idea to have a clearing barrel, bucket of sand, or a deep stack of magazines.

It amazes me that people who are intimidated by lowering a hammer, have no problem pulling the trigger to field strip a Glock. We have seen all too well how that has worked out for gun safety.

As a civilian I only carry cocked and locked, but if I did carry C2 I only have to lower the hammer after the gun is loaded, after service or shooting. The rest of the time it remains loaded in the safe. Same for the Glocks, I do not unload, and load them without a reason.

[NavyVet1959]

The only time my guns are in Condition-3 is when they are in my gun safe.

[Bill*B]

Strange things do happen. I've seen an Uzi (the thing does have a grip safety) lying on a bench, that fired when it was simply lightly touched. I have no doubt that the incident preparehandbook relates happened just as described. Don't think that strange can't happen.

[ksfowler166]

I have a Pieper Bayard Model 1908 32 acp pistol I pocket carry in either my left or right front pocket. The safety is pretty small, its a small gun after all and flat which makes it difficult at times to disengage it. So I carry it both with a round in the round in the chamber safety on and round not in the chamber safety off whichever I feel like doing.

A while ago I read where W.E. Fairbairn had his police officers carry there pistols with the safety off. I though well that just stupid carrying a cocked SA pistol with a round in the chamber without the safety on why would anyone not carry condition 1. Then I read Fairbairn's own words which was that he felt it was easier under stress rack the slide (gross motor function) instead of flipping the safety (fine motor function). I understood how that could be practical with guns like the Pieper with not very good ergodynamics.

[NavyVet1959]

A while ago I read where W.E. Fairbairn had his police officers carry there pistols with the safety off. I though well that just stupid carrying a cocked SA pistol with a round in the chamber without the safety on why would anyone not carry condition 1. Then I read Fairbairn's own words which was that he felt it was easier under stress rack the slide (gross motor function) instead of flipping the safety (fine motor function). I understood how that could be practical with guns like the Pieper with not very good ergodynamics.

Here's an article that mentions Fairbairn...

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2010/09/myths-of-israeli-method-of-carry-or-why.html

Here's an excerpt of who he was:



The most important development in C3 history to me was the adoption of that method of carry by the members of the Shanghai Police under W.E. Fairbairn. As the result of a number of incidents, Fairbairn (along with Eric Sykes) began to develop a new way to bring Shanghai P.D. officers to a high level of expertise with their handguns given the limited amount of training time and resources available to them. This training included, in part, carrying the gun with an empty chamber and then chambering a round as part of the draw stroke. This proved to be quite successful and when World War II broke out Fairbairn and Sykes were tasked with training commando units in close combat, including pistol use. They chose the chamber-empty target-focused method that had worked so well for them at Shanghai P.D., and for many of the same reasons. C3 allowed a person to safely carry and adequately use a firearm with a very limited amount of training. Fairbairn also wrote several books which also served to popularize the chamber empty carry method.


I can understand Fairbarn's justification, but I'll still carry with one in the chamber... If the gun is in my gun safe though, the mag is probably full, but the chamber is empty.

[smokeywolf]

Decades ago I carried a 1911 in condition 1 for most of 7 years. Was only in I think 3 situations (I remember 2 in particular) where I had to draw as quickly as I could. Never missed the thumb break on the holster. Never missed the thumb safety with my thumb.

While in the holster (designed for cond. 1), 4 things have to happen before the gun will fire:


Thumb break strap under hammer has to be cleared.
Thumb safety swept down.
Grip safety depressed.
Trigger pulled.


Given this method of carry, the design, caliber and track record of the pistol. I can't think of another pistol that I would feel safer carrying.

[Blackwater]

This is always an interesting discussion, and always lively to boot. There are always those who opine that "it's all personal opinion," and that's true as far as making the decision goes. But it's ALSO true that simple physics, geometry and ergonomics come into play in very finite and measurable ways. The shortest distance between two points will always be a straight line, and the minimum possible movements necessary to draw your gun for use will always be the quickest. That is most certainly NOT a matter of opinion. Now the joker in the deck here is how people are trained, and that CAN indeed make Plan B a more desirable choice, so it really takes a little experience to make these decisions, and with autos, a little honest self-evaluation - always a difficult and frequently embarassing task, but a necessary one anyway. Just how attentive are we when we carry? How coordinated and sure are we? Do we have or take the time to practice a real defensive draw as quickly as we can (almost always with an unloaded gun!)? These are some of the human factors that DO prove to be jokers in the deck beyond the simple geometry and other more finite and measurable factors in drawing and using a carry gun quickly and efficiently and safely, and it's these human factors that wind up often being the determinant, rather than the physics of it all. Therefore, there really IS a lot more to consider in each individual situation than the mere geometry and physics of it all. And this makes it a rather nebulous sort of thing when we try to recommend something to another person. What works best for us may well pose unintended problems for another person due to those highly variable human factors.

When I set out to decide the matter, I got a few holsters that I and friends had to try them out down on the lower 40. All the stuff I'd read made sense in print, but what seems "right" in print doesn't always work out in actual practice, so ... I just practiced and compared, and had a few others observe and comment. We never seem to notice all the things that others sometimes do notice, so that was a big asset that helped more than I'd anticipated. I found that there was really no comparison between cond. 3 and cond. 1 for me, and cond. 1 was the hands down winner by a potentially significant margin. BUT .... I had a long standing habit of being very conscious of my surroundings and my gun. At the time, I selected a Bianchi M-19L to carry my .45 in, and was quite happy and confident with it. This particular holster model, though, has a definite tendency to wipe the safety off when carried in cond. 1. It's also, though, designed with the thumb snap to sit between hammer and firing pin, so even with the safety off, which did happen now and then, I knew that as long as whenever I drew it, I had to assume it was ready to go and the safety was off (excellent assumption at ALL times for any gun!), and I simply never forgot or got careless with it.

Many people just don't like the IDEA of a cocked .45 or other auto, but that's just an emotion, and emotions are the responsibility of those who hold them, and not those around them. To insist that nobody around us do anything we don't particularly approve of may affect manners, generally, but when it comes to self defense, most instances will require PDQ application of whatever talents and techniques you've adopted and practiced, and the best equipment you've been willing and able to procure. One CAN make a carry gun a little "TOO safe!" One friend of mine who lives in an exclusive gated community was out to dinner once, and some obviously rich old lady with a dour demeanor and visage pointed out his .45 in his Askins Avenger holster was cocked, and haughtily asked, "Isn't that dangerous?" Without even turning his head for more than a half second, he responded as he cut another bite of steak, "Yes ma'am, it sure is, and I INTENDED for it to be dangerous. Why would I carry a gun that was NOT dangerous?" and then he just glared at her as though she had three heads. She got the message, and apparently wasn't so offended that she left the place, because she went back to the friends at her table and acted offended, which affected my friend not in the least. Not polite, I guess, but idjits won't LET us be polite sometimes, and a little "reality therapy" can go a long way with them. It'll never change their minds, but it keeps them from imagining they have some sort of right to tell others who know what they're doing how to do it THEIR way, in their ignorance. Did I mention my friend isn't a very big believer in political correctness, but he's one of the most intelligent and accomplished men I know? And he applies himself to finding what works for HIM, and he doesn't care what others think of his techniques or gear or personality. He's proven all his gear and techniques and choices where the OUGHT to be proven, which is out on the range or in the field, and almost always both.

So the only really REAL answer to these questions is to go try them, and if they don't work as well as it takes to make you comfortable with what you have, go get and try something else. There is really NO substitute for actually getting out and PROVING what works and what doesn't FOR YOU. Your results may vary from mine, and while there'll always be the truth that the physics and geometry of the matter IS finite, the human part is not, and that's the variables that often come into play, especially when it comes to the genral populace and guns, and the mistakes that CAN be made with them that can cause deadly results without intent by the users. And the hardest part of all is simply being honest with ourselves about our skills, coordination, and our ability to really PERFORM the safe practices necessary to carry a gun safely and effectively.

Ultimately, there's really no other answer except to go try it, and see how it works for you. Just remember to be honest and observant and rational, and when you've done your due diligence, you'll really feel a whole lot better, and maybe a bit humbler, and both of those are always good things for us shooters. It's not as common as it once was, but it doesn't HAVE to be that way. Making decisions like these and proving them out CAN re-instill in us a little more respect for truth rather than just following "rules" someone else has propagated as "the way to go." Yeah, there can be trends, and my tests showed me that I'm with many of the better writers on the subject.

And BTW, if you carry, and you don't have a copy of Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner," you really NEED a copy of it. This is the old Border Patrolman, not the camo guy. It's a small ad short book, but it's packed with the best info and advice you'll find on what really works in real gun fights. He was involved in many, many real gunfights, and his observations and opinions are golden. And it's not very epensive. I think I've read it at least 20 times, and each time, I re-learn something I'd almost forgotten. It's a short book because there really isn't all that much to consider, really, but what IS important needs to be dealt with very objectively and proven out in actual practice. He's the best source of this kind of info that I know of, though there are others. He almost always carried in cond. 1 when he was carrying and there appeared much of a chance of having to use it. He also carried in cond. 3 at times as well, though, and it's really a judgement call, and that's pretty well clear.

We "moderns" tend to flock to certain sets of "rules," and therefore, have abandoned (at least largely) simply thinking and reasoning and making good judgments on the basis of real info we can discern at any given time. When my son was very young, I learned he could load and cock and fire my Ruger SA .357 when he was only 3, so I sold it and got my first .45. I kept it in the house in cond. 3, figuring by the time he had the strength to get the slide back and chamber a round, he'd be old enough to know better, and I knew I'd make sure he knew how to do it safely. There'll never be any sort of substitute for good judgment. No "rules" will ever replace the need for it, ever.

[Outpost75]

“Le armi le carica il diavolo” is an old Italian proverb, which means, “The devil loads the guns.”

This attitude dates back to the era of horse cavalry, in which the primary weapon was a lance or sabre. Pistols were a backup weapon, secured with lanyards to keep them from being lost. The grip safety of our M1911 pistol was specified by a cavalry officer to prevent accidental discharge of a dropped pistol dangling on its lanyard while being jostled by a galloping horse! European butt-located magazine releases forced the user to positively grasp the magazine in order to withdraw it, reducing risk of the magazine being dropped and lost. Fast reloading was not felt important or necessary.

Carrying an automatic pistol with its chamber loaded was felt to be dangerous. "Modern" combat pistol technique as pioneered by Fairbairn & Sykes was taught only to commandos and covert operators. WW2 soldiers of both sides received only minimal training and were “not to be trusted with a loaded pistol.” Aircrews often carried revolvers, because they simplified training, were easier to maintain and safer to carry.

British Army and Home Guard instructions of 1940 stated that “automatics shall be carried with a loaded magazine inserted into the butt, with the chamber empty.” Indeed, U.S. Army WW2 instructions for military police, guards and escorts was to similarly carry their M1911 in “Condition 3.” “Cocked and locked” in “Condition 1” was intended only in combat zones when contact with the enemy was felt imminent.

[Dan Cash]

I guess I will sound like a pistolero who is not in the know but I have no clue what "condition one," "condition three," or any other condition than ready. In response to the OPs question: settle on one method of carry or get a different gun. Sometimes one in the chamber and sometimes not is a sure way to get killed. Your pistol, if in proper working order should be carried with a round in the chamber and thumb safety on safe. Carry it where you can get at it and operate the controll(s). Your carry "condition" must be always the same as you will react as you practice. You will not react to a situation as A+B=D or A+C=D. You can not differentiate.

With a revolver or DA auto loading pistol, this is demonstrated by a reaction of: grasp and pull the revolver, rotate on to the target and pull the trigger.

With a normal auto loading pistol, grasp and pull the pistol, rotate onto the target while depressing the thumb safety and pull the trigger.

This requires practice and conditioning. If you are not willing to invest the effort, put your pistol in the dresser drawer and leave it there.

[gray wolf]

I tell you what,
try to draw and rack the slide with one hand as if you were in close contact and fighting for you life.
Or trying to control someones weapon so you could draw and shoot.

Let me know how it works out

[Bigslug]

How well can you perform any of those tasks when someone is trying to kill you?
Adrenaline is not known for improving your fine motor skills.

How suitable is the handgun in question for each of those modes of carry?
An original, pre-1924 1911 was designed with Condition 2 in mind (remember that this was a cavalry generation transitioning from Peacemakers) - short grip safety and big beavertail surface on the hammer make thumb-cocking a semi-realistic proposition, but the tiny GI thumb safety makes Condition 1 a little awkward. A modern 1911 with its big thumb safety and high-rise grip safety was MADE for Condition 1, but SUCKS for Condition 2.

Do you even have both hands available to chamber that round from Condition 3? Are you going to be able to rack the slide with the sight on your belt while ducking and dodging out of harm's way?
On the one hand, I consider this "Condition Oblivious" for people who want to carry a gun but don't want to think about their gun, how it works, or the possible circumstances of needing to use it, but those questions hint that in some ways you might even have to be MORE aware of your surroundings and be MORE mentally ready for a fight than carrying Condition 1 or Condition Zero (cocked and unlocked, or "Glocked"). But if you're head is wired that way, you're probably better prepared for one of the higher states of readiness. You're either trained and aware enough to carry safely, or you're not and quite probably shouldn't. Condition 3 makes sense in a military setting where rifles are everywhere and if the handguns come out at all, the poo has well and truly hit the fan and there is time to see it coming at you. For dealing with the suddenly unexpected, I've got serious misgivings about it.

[Blackwater]

Dan, a lot of newcomers to shooting, and there are an awful lot of them now, aren't familiar with it so you're far from alone. The shooting game has been going on for an awful long time now, and every technical endeavor has its own peculiar terminologies, or jargon. This one was developed, IIRC, by Col. Jeff Cooper some years ago to describe the options for carrying a 1911 .45, but can be applied to many other semi-autos.

In it, Condition One describes a mode of carry where the hammer is cocked and a round is chambered, with the safety on "safe." Condition Two describes a hammer down on a chambered round, using the inertial firing pin (short enough so that the hammer doesn't press the point into the primer, relying on inertia for the primer strike after the hammer is cocked and the trigger pulled) to prevent accidental discharges (usually referred to as AD's), and the safety "off." Condition Three is the hammer down, safety off and empty chamber, necessitating that the slide be racked to chamber a round and cock the gun to ready it to fire. The military generally specifies Condition Three carry for most troops in order to prevent AD's. Condition One is generally preferred for self defense carry or wherever a gun might need to be used quickly.

An adjunct to carrying in Condition One is that the holster needs to be designed for that mode of carry. One example is the old Bianchi M-19L that has a covered trigger guard, so as to prevent people from getting their fingers inside the trigger guard and thus increasing the liklihood of an AD, and a thumb snap strap that goes over the rear of the slide between it and the cocked hammer. You can't conveniently carry a .45 in this particular holster in any other way other than Condition One. It's also worth noting that that particular holster has a habit of wiping the safety into the "off" position, but I never worried about it as long as the safety strap was between the hammer and frame, and that covered trigger guard it provides is also another good safety feature. Many other holsters incorporate some form of these traits.

I know usually carry on my belt in an Askins Avenger type holster. Mine is by Galco and I believe it's simply called the "Avenger," and it's a very simple, snugly fit open top holster with no safety strap. It has no tendency to wipe the safety off, which is good with a strapless holster, but it too has the covered trigger guard to help new shooters keep their hands out of the trigger guard until the gun is clear of the holster, and is as safe as such a holster can be. It's also the quickest and one of the highest riding and most concealable belt holsters out there. I love mine. Need to practice with it more, though, but we could all generally benefit from that.

Hope this helps. The language of all technical fields, and shooting IS a very technical field, often turns off many folks who are relatively new to them, but a little learning and you should be good to go. It's just a short-hand way, really, to communicate precisely what we're talking about so that others know what we mean without having to give a full description every time we speak of these things. Pretty simple, really, and very functional within the realm it applies to. The various sciences are full of their own particular jargons, as is auto repair, any sort of mechanical work, etc. The first thing to do in any technical field is to simply learn the jargon, and when you encounter a term you don't understand, just ask. No question is "foolish" or embarassing but once. Too many newbies are timid, and don't ask, so it's good to see someone with the simple courage to ask about such things. Good on ya' for doing so!

[buckwheatpaul]

I always carry condition 1; but I was trained that way....I believe that it is up to the individual and what fits their particular style the best.....which way you carry be consistent......stress can cause you to revert and get killed or hurt is you are not consistent with the way you carry.....good luck and God's speed.

[35remington]

Extended safeties and slide stops are the work of the devil. The size as found on the Colt Series 70 Reproductions and similar setups is perfect for me as it is big enough to manipulate positively but no bigger.

It it does not get in the way of my hands and seems more resistant to being bumped to the
off position when in the holster.

Which goes to show that fads that come about due to shooting games should be left to the gamesmen and not applied to those pistols actually intended to be used for serious purposes.

[Walkingwolf]

How many of you carry condition 3 (Loaded mag, empty chamber, safety off)?

I carry an M57A Tokarev which allows:



Condition Russian, Chambered, half cock locked (not drop safe, slide and trigger locked until hammer is cocked).
Condition 1, Chambered, Cocked, locked (Drop safe, slide can be operated on safe).
Condition 2, Chambered, hammer down, safety off (not drop safe), or safety on (drop safe).
Condition 3, Chamber empty, safety off.


I usually carry condition 3. I feel it is a bit safer with kids around, etc. and as I grew up with condition 2 and condition 3 carry. If the Tok was drop safe without the safety on in condition 2 I would carry it thusly, as I can cock a hammer on draw long before I am up and on target.

Condition Russian, with the Tok on it's half cock (more of a 1/5th lock) is kind of neat because if you lose control of the gun most westerners are not going to sort out how to get it running very quickly, at least not before I beat them into submission with my cane.

I hear a lot of talk about condition 2 and 3 being "too slow" but I have never heard of an instance where this extra time caused a problem. In many areas of the world condition 3 is mandatory and it doesn't seem to slow people down when stuff goes pear shaped. What I do see is a whole lot of negligent discharges in the news.

Why is condition 3 so slow for Americans, but the rest of the world does ok with it.

Any thoughts?
Be aware that the Tok has a positive firing pin. Carrying condition two rests the firing pin on the primer, unlike a 1911 where the FP only touches the primer after the pin has been struck with enough force.

[Dan Cash]

Blackwater, I am 70 years old and have had a handgun on or about my person daily for about 50 years. I have heard the terms of condition one, 2, 3 etc but they remain meaningless. When you skin leather, that pistol better go bang. All else is BS for the bar room shootists and keyboard commandos. Thank you for your effort at explaining the jargon.
Sincerely,
Dan

[NavyVet1959]

In simple terms:

Condition-0: You pull the trigger, it goes "bang". Also known as "cocked and unlocked".
Condition-1: It won't go "bang" when you pull the trigger, you first need to switch the safety to "off" first. Also known as "cocked and locked".
Condition-2: You need to cock the gun and then pull the trigger for it to go "bang". There's a round in the chamber, but the hammer is down.
Condition-3: No round in the chamber, so it doesn't matter how many times you cock it and pull the trigger, there's nothing there to go "bang".

The Glock fan-boys like to claim that their tupperware is in Condition-1, but in reality, it is in Condition-0. They definitely get their share of ADs and I suspect that if they didn't have such a crappy trigger, they would get even more.

[Walkingwolf]

In simple terms:

Condition-0: You pull the trigger, it goes "bang". Also known as "cocked and unlocked".
Condition-1: It won't go "bang" when you pull the trigger, you first need to switch the safety to "off" first. Also known as "cocked and locked".
Condition-2: You need to cock the gun and then pull the trigger for it to go "bang". There's a round in the chamber, but the hammer is down.
Condition-3: No round in the chamber, so it doesn't matter how many times you cock it and pull the trigger, there's nothing there to go "bang".

The Glock fan-boys like to claim that their tupperware is in Condition-1, but in reality, it is in Condition-0. They definitely get their share of ADs and I suspect that if they didn't have such a crappy trigger, they would get even more.

Sorry that is not enough word count, come back with several paragraphs, and over 1,000 words to be acceptable.(tongue in cheek)

[Alexn20]

And BTW, if you carry, and you don't have a copy of Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner," you really NEED a copy of it. This is the old Border Patrolman, not the camo guy. It's a small ad short book, but it's packed with the best info and advice you'll find on what really works in real gun fights. He was involved in many, many real gunfights, and his observations and opinions are golden. And it's not very epensive. I think I've read it at least 20 times, and each time, I re-learn something I'd almost forgotten. It's a short book because there really isn't all that much to consider, really, but what IS important needs to be dealt with very objectively and proven out in actual practice. He's the best source of this kind of info that I know of, though there are others. He almost always carried in cond. 1 when he was carrying and there appeared much of a chance of having to use it. He also carried in cond. 3 at times as well, though, and it's really a judgement call, and that's pretty well clear.


I found the txt online at archive.org:
https://archive.org/stream/No_Second_Place_Winner_Bill_Jordan/No_Second_Place_Winner_Bill_Jordan_djvu.txt

[str8wal]

I tell you what,
try to draw and rack the slide with one hand as if you were in close contact and fighting for you life.
Or trying to control someones weapon so you could draw and shoot.

Let me know how it works out

This ^^^

Folks that say they carry with an empty chamber and only rack one home when they feel the need are asking for trouble. One never truly knows when that need will arrive.

[eli]

I carry condition 1 and 0, as reaction time is something I need to take full advantage of, especially as I get older.
I will carry a safety-ed pocket gun but not without a soft nylon holster. I will not carry a glock without an holster, unless it's for a very short time, in an outer pocket, coat or pocketed heavy shirt, with nothing else in that pocket.
My outlook is, I want to be ready, things happen quickly and fooling about with an un-ready firearm defeats the purpose of many thousands of hours of gun handling, so I can do what I must, safely and without wasted time.

[FergusonTO35]

I feel perfectly safe carrying my Glock 26 and 42 with one in the pipe. They have OEM triggers which I would guess have at least an 8 pound pull. I always use a holster that covers the trigger too. The most effective safety mechanism is between your ears!

[John Whorfin]

Be aware that the Tok has a positive firing pin. Carrying condition two rests the firing pin on the primer, unlike a 1911 where the FP only touches the primer after the pin has been struck with enough force.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for pointing that out!

I registered for membership on this forum so that I could post a question about this matter in this thread (which I found in the middle of the night while searching for information on the topic -- and have been reading through all the messages for the past several hours!)

While examining my new M57A I discovered that unlike my Para Ordnance (and the Series 70 I regret selling about three decades ago, because "why would I need two .45s"?), the Tokarev's firing pin extended into the chamber when the hammer was down (discovered while pressing on the pin to see how far it would travel before protruding).

I was shocked to find the pin sticking out while the base (the hammer end) was still "proud" of the opening!

I thought they must have made it too long before installing it. Or perhaps it was broken and the uneven ends of the broken area were making it "effectively" too long (proved to not be the case by simply holding the gun nose-down, and seeing that the spring withdrew it against gravity when I stopped pushing).

It was about that time when I realized how utterly dangerous it would be to carry in Condition 2. I was reminded of the old "cowboy six shooters" in the 1800s that had to be loaded with five, because the firing pin on the end of the hammer was resting on the primer (even recommended for newer revolvers until the advent of the transfer bar, but I digress).

And it was at that moment when I realized that the only way to safely un-cock it with a round in the chamber was to carefully choreograph a crazy sequence of hold hammer while pulling trigger while flipping into Safe the moment the sear released the hammer, being very careful to not let the hammer slip out and strike the firing pin before the safety had rotated enough to lock the firing pin and block the hammer.

Whew! And here I am, cursed with only having two hands! (Septuagenarian hands with tremors, no less!)

Until then, I was stunned at how safe the thing seemed to be -- how I'd feel safer carrying it cocked and locked than I would my .45 -- even though it lacked a grip safety.

The safety was very secure -- large ball bearing detents, snapped firmly into Safe and stayed there until I made a decision to take it out of Safe. I could not conceive of any rational scenario in which it would accidentally get bumped into Fire mode (unlike either of the .45s I've owned or my Taurus PT99). The locked firing pin made it drop-safe.

I am still shaking my head in disbelief that they'd engineer in such an elegantly simply yet functionally complete safety -- and then NOT use an inertial firing pin!

I have not yet checked the manual to see if it suggests lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. It would not surprise me if it does -- the manual goes into depth on the purposes and usage of the half-cock -- which the pistol does not have! (I wasted a considerable amount of time trying to figure out if it was defective. It didn't help when I read someone explain how his M57A does have a half-cock! Then, someone else mentioned that this model doesn't have half-cock. Apparently it did have half-cock, and then they removed that feature. I guess it must have interfered with the "bonus round" going off while putting the gun into Condition 2.)

Well, I've droned on long enough. I'll try to end on something (hopefully) upbeat, hopefully of benefit to someone...

I have during my searching encountered numerous posts by people who cursed the magazine safety (and, the non-drop-free magazine), and so, twisted off the flat spring that blocks the trigger bar unless a magazine is inserted.

This, of course, is prosecutor-bait should the weapon ever be used in a defensive situation.

So, here is a quick, easy, reversible magazine safety defeat:

I cut a small piece of thin cardboard out of an empty tissue box. I then slipped it under the spring, simulating the presence of a magazine.

I can now operate the trigger without having a magazine in the gun, and, when I press the magazine release button, the magazine instantly comes flying out the bottom of the grip.

This was my prototype; I plan on cutting a piece of shim stock later on. And, if I ever take the guy out of plinking-mode and into carry-mode, all I'll need to do is remove the left-side grip and pull out the shim.

BTW, I had a helluva time replacing the grips -- until I said [expletive deleted] and bent the ends up slightly. I did the same with the trigger spring. I removed it, bent (actually unbent) it slightly, and replaced it. Much lower trigger pressure. Nowhere near my .45 -- I will at some point take some stones to the hammer and sear -- but it must have been close to 30 lbs out of the box! I'm not exaggerating!

Ok, now I'm off to bed. Sorry for droning on so long. Retired from my writing career, but the "muscle memory" persists, sorry...

[Dapaki]

Pull trigger... BANG!

I carry single action, some without a mechanical safety switch.

I have hosted several 'active shooter' training sessions in my buildings when vacant for the cops to use Simunitions and have personally played the 'bad guy' a half dozen times... I always died.

Because of watching the cops train and seeing where they messed up and got 'shot', I stopped training on the safety latch for my EDC. What was happening time after time was upon engagement, they forgot to unsafe their weapon and got drilled every time. These were all guys that trained at the range to stay in safe, switch, fire, switch. The problem was that they reverted to idiots when under fire! Shooting 2 foot low, safety's left on, even dancing (hoping from foot to foot) when shot.

watching that go down time and time again changed my mind, draw, aim, bang!

[Burnt Fingers]

You have to look at the reason the Israelis taught condition 3.

They had such a mish mash of equipment that there was NO way to teach everyone the order of arms for the pistol they had.

So they settled on condition 3 as it can be done with any pistol.

[Geezer in NH]

Glocks don't need condition 3. [smilie=s:

[johniv]

What Smokywolf said!

[mattw]

I like a 1911 Officers model in condition 1, if the clothes are right. Otherwise it is a good 380 in condition 1 in my wallet pocket. If I have to go smaller, a P32 ready to go.

[tazman]

Given my condition and abilities, any draw I make will be slow. That said, The condition I carry in depends on the gun and the circumstance I expect to see.
In my home, the pistols are in condition three. If a child or unknown person should find the weapon, there will be a little time before they figure out there is no round in the chamber giving me time to react to it. When the grandkids are in the house, the guns are locked up where they can't get to them( I have one grandchild that I will not ever allow to handle a gun if I am present. He makes bad choices regularly, so I take no chances with him around. If he had access to a working gun, he would gladly shoot his family when in a fit of rage.).

When I pull the home defense weapon from hiding, I rack the slide. I can do this quickly or quietly depending on need. By the time I have the pistol in hand and standing, the chamber is loaded. The pistols are scattered through the house so that I am within a few feet of one no matter where I am in the house. These pistols get checked and lubed regularly. I take them to the range in rotation. I can do 4 inches or less group size at 10 yards with all of my pistols. Some will do quite a bit better.

In the woods, I carry either a 357 mag revolver or a 45ACP. The 45 will be cocked and locked(1911) or loaded and ready to go(Springfield XDm with grip and trigger safety).

The revolvers I carry don't really fit the conditions that are used for pistols. They are all carried with the cylinder full.
Slow fire, I can hold a 3 inch group at 10 yards. Rapid fire(double action) I can hold the 8 ring on a B27 target at 7 yards consistently. Good enough for close work on social occasions.

I don't have a compact pistol for concealed carry at this time. I am not certain I would be confident using one. I am quite confident with my revolvers.

[1006]

I think you should pick a method that allows you to draw and shoot with only one hand.

You may be defending yourself with the other or have already lost the use of it by restraint or injury.

[Idaho45guy]

I have carried for years in condition 3 with no safety. In the three instances I needed to clear leather, I was aware enough of my surroundings to have plenty of time to draw, rack the slide, and bring the pistol up with plenty of time.

I now carry a pistol with a safety and it goes in public with a round chambered and the safety engaged.

When I'm in the woods, my carry gun is a Glock 10mm and it has a round chambered when out of the vehicle and in the woods. When I carried a Glock for EDC in town, I carried empty chamber. I figured the chance of me have a negligent discharge in normal handling was greater than me having to engage a threat with my sidearm in the very low crime area I live.

When I traveled to bigger cities, I had a round chambered. Probably silly, but it's what I was comfortable with and the statistics bore out that practice.

It's all a very personal choice based on risk assessment for their specific area and what each person is comfortable with. So whatever folks decide to do in their own environments is fine with me.