Cast v. Jacketed

[nehpd]

Hi, all! I have a general question. I am hand loading .451 cast lead into an 1873 Uberti "Special Sporter" with the 24" barrel, .45 Colt. I haven't found that sweet spot yet while trying a small assortment of 255 gn LRN and 260 gn SWC mixed with various levels of Unique and some accurate that is dirty as hell...forgot the actual number on the accurate. Anywho, I recently acquired a box of the Hornady Leverlution jacketed hollow points in .452 diameter. In general, should jacketed bullets be the same, smaller, or larger in diameter than the lead cast bullets. I understand about cleaning the barrel after lead, etc, but I am also curious what anybody has to say about loading up that particular round (I think it is also 250 grain bullets) in a toggle link repro. like my Uberti for killing hogs out to a hundred yards. Thanks for any input, y'all!

[OnHoPr]

I am not sure, but why are you putting .451s in a 45 colt. .451s, .452s, 453s would generally be going in something like a 45 acp, lead. The 45 colt should be using a minimum of 454 and likely 455s and 456s possibly. The lead boolit should be slightly larger in diameter.

PS Maybe the hard taken definition of the word "minimum" was a bit overboard which was not my intent of it. Maybe an adjective like roughly minimum would have been better.

[shoot-n-lead]

I am not sure, but why are you putting .451s in a 45 colt. .451s, .452s, 453s would generally be going in something like a 45 acp, lead. The 45 colt should be using a minimum of 454 and likely 455s and 456s possibly. The lead boolit should be slightly larger in diameter.

WHAT???

All of my colts have shot .453...never had one that took any larger.

[nehpd]

I am not sure, but why are you putting .451s in a 45 colt.

Fair question...because I got over 1500 of the .451 in various weights and configurations for 50 bucks when I was first starting out and figured it was a good deal. Ignorance is bliss, you know? Anyhow, this could very likely explain why I have not found that sweet spot yet. But these are definantly .45 Colt bullets because the minimum weight is 255 in both keith-ish semi-wadcutter and traditional RNFP. There was a also a handfull of 230 grain lead ball bullets in the bottom of the box. I loaded and shot those, too, for grins and giggles, knowing those definitely belonged in a 1911...

[OnHoPr]

Here are a couple of retro quotes about 45 colt boolit diameters.


I have a new Ruger BH I measured one a month ago with 0.453" cylinder throats and 0.452" barrel groove. The guy who bought it uses the Lee 255 RF boolit sized in a 0.454" sizer to just lube it. His boolit measures about 0.4525". and a 1926 Colt New Service Flat Top Target. The New Services I shot and owned all liked 0.454" boolits, specifically the 454190 Lyman.
Every article I read in the 45 Colt and cast bullets gives conflicting information. The specs changed around WW2. Basically they went from 0.454" nominal to the modern 45 ACP barrel standards of 0.451" to 0.452" nominal.
I have seen everything from .451 to .455. Some go 0.457" in the older S&W revolvers. Most of the articles appear to address issues where the cylinder throat and barrel don't match up. Or are reversed with a smaller throat than barrel groove. I already have .452 molds and sizers for the 45 ACP. These are both just "fun guns" as I have a S&W 329 44 Magnum for serious work.


Winchester standard factory ammo uses .456" bullets.
Remington standard factory ammo uses .455" bullets.
The Cowboy loads vary by manufacturer from .452" to .454" bullets. Jacketed bullets for the .45 Colt are almost always .452" diameter.


Since you have so many boolits that are close, maybe you should look into a bump system to bump your boolits up to what YOUR gun likes. Do a little research on it, it may be worth while. Maybe better than confusing a substantial known problem with other issues to figure out trying to get your gun to shoot well and not wasting a bunch of primers, powder, and time reloading and shooting with less than average to stellar results. It also may be easier to slug check your throat and bore to see what will fit your gun. Then maybe get a mold and recast all those boolits. Just possible thoughts, maybe someone else could chime in on a suggestion or two.

[Tatume]

I am not sure, but why are you putting .451s in a 45 colt. .451s, .452s, 453s would generally be going in something like a 45 acp, lead. The 45 colt should be using a minimum of 454 and likely 455s and 456s possibly. The lead boolit should be slightly larger in diameter.

Not true. Perhaps you're thinking of the 455 Webley?

[OnHoPr]

Well, maybe my memory banks are a little to retro, so what is the smallest and largest size boolits for the any vintage or new colt 45s? Maybe my info in reading the web was wrong.

Here is a couple of molds on Midway.

RCBS 1-Cavity Bullet Mold 45-250-RN-HB 45 Colt (Long Colt) (455 Diameter) 250 Grain Round Nose Hollow Base
RCBS 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 45-270-SAA 45 Colt Single Action Army (454 Diameter) 270 Grain Flat Nose

[sparky45]

Slug your barrel, it'll tell you what it wants. As a rule of thumb, go 1,2, or 3 thousandths OVER the slugged grove diameter for cast.

[JohnH]

I have a Rossi 44 Mag that slugs 432. Sammi Specs call for that groove diameter. I bet your Uberti would be much happier with boolits at least 454.

[GRUMPA]

Slugging the barrel is pretty much a must when using cast boolits. I do that in everything I use for good reason, trust me no 2 are close to the same.

9mm barrel I have slugs out with a .358 groove diameter. Factory fodder is .355/.356 diameter and wont be accurate no matter how much swearing you do.

357mag: handgun slugs out at .3565 while my lever gun slugs out at .3575 diameter.

[Tatume]

All but one of my 45 Colt guns use 0.452" bullets. The one exception uses 0.451" bullets.

Some old Colt revolvers were made with horribly oversized cylinder throats, and usually they were very inconsistent too. The only way to get them to shoot halfway decently was to load bullets sized for the largest throat. Just because Colt produced such junk is no reason to believe that modern manufacturers do the same.

[Tatume]

Well, maybe my memory banks are a little to retro, so what is the smallest and largest size boolits for the any vintage or new colt 45s? Maybe my info in reading the web was wrong.

Here is a couple of molds on Midway.

RCBS 1-Cavity Bullet Mold 45-250-RN-HB 45 Colt (Long Colt) (455 Diameter) 250 Grain Round Nose Hollow Base


RCBS 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 45-270-SAA 45 Colt Single Action Army (454 Diameter) 270 Grain Flat Nose



And here is page after page of 0.452" molds for 45 ACP and 45 Colt. Just because Midway sells a 0.454" mold doesn't mean it is the correct mold.

http://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=452+mold

[MT Gianni]

My ruger bbls [3] have slugged .452"-.4525" Boolits are sized .454.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Hi, all! I have a general question. I am hand loading .451 cast lead into an 1873 Uberti "Special Sporter" with the 24" barrel, .45 Colt. I haven't found that sweet spot yet while trying a small assortment of 255 gn LRN and 260 gn SWC mixed with various levels of Unique and some accurate that is dirty as hell...forgot the actual number on the accurate. Anywho, I recently acquired a box of the Hornady Leverlution jacketed hollow points in .452 diameter. In general, should jacketed bullets be the same, smaller, or larger in diameter than the lead cast bullets. I understand about cleaning the barrel after lead, etc, but I am also curious what anybody has to say about loading up that particular round (I think it is also 250 grain bullets) in a toggle link repro. like my Uberti for killing hogs out to a hundred yards. Thanks for any input, y'all!

Like others have already mentioned, you are gonna want a fatter boolit for that rifle. I've been looking at a couple Leverguns in 45 colt for a while, and have read quite a bit from several sources. The quote below kind of sums it up...why you want a boolit to fill the chamber and if you choose to shoot up your box of 451's, I surely would NOT be Hot-Rod'ing the loads. I'd keep them at 14Kpsi.


A quote from Griff on a levergun forum.

I'm the cautionary type, I have 2 Uberti toggle links in 45 Colt; an 1860 and 1873. And like most others in this chambering, the chambers are generous, maybe to a fault. For this reason I would take bolt thrust calculations and err on the low side. Frankly, I would not buy a toggle link in a 44Mag.

One of the big complaints about the Uberti 45 are those large chambers. Mind ya, this is mostly from those CAS guys that shoot light loads... but even moderate loads will soot up cases in my 1860. The 1873 not so much... but it was one of the first 5 rifles imported from Uberti in this cartridge.

But, those large chambers make me wonder about that momentary lull between the bullet being released and the sides of the case gripping the chamber... and what that means in the way of bolt thrust. Ergo, my reluctance of loading mine very hot. I have the 24-¼" barrel, and probably should load up some 45Colt loads that more closely approximate factory loads and see what type of velocity I'm getting.

[Piedmont]

Some old Colt revolvers were made with horribly oversized cylinder throats, and usually they were very inconsistent too. The only way to get them to shoot halfway decently was to load bullets sized for the largest throat. Just because Colt produced such junk is no reason to believe that modern manufacturers do the same.

There were periods of manufacture at both S&W and Ruger where the cylinder throats in .45 were oversized. Now they tend to be too small. My understanding is new Colts are still oversized. So I guess it is more accurate to say they all made and make junk unless you just get lucky.

[triggerhappy243]

nehpd, you never mentioned group size. never mentioned what the lead composition was.

[mdi]

You can't make these kinda decisions (bullet diameter) without facts. Slug the barrel and measure with micrometers. Slug (or use pin gauges) the cylinder throats and measure with micrometers. Without facts, actual dimensions of your gun, it's all a WAG...

[triggerhappy243]

this is a rifle, not a revolver.

[Lonegun1894]

I shoot .45 Colt in Ruger revolvers, Rossi 92 rifles, and Winchester 94 rifles, and all of mine in the whole bunch shoot best with .454". I tried .451" and got crappy accuracy and leading. .452" was still leading a lot but accuracy improved slightly. I then tried .454", and got excellent accuracy and no leading, and haven't looked back. Now to be fair, .452"s worked ok with standard low pressure .45 Colt loads, but I use quite a few "Ruger only" .45 Colt loads for hunting, and those showed a huge improvement when I went to .454", so now I use .454" for all my .45 Colt loads regardless if they are the light plinkers or the heavy hunting loads.

[runfiverun]

you know back in the olden day's 454 was the size for 44 caliber black powder type revolvers.
just cause it says sumthin on the barrel or box don't make it so.

45 colt can run the gamut from needing or using 451 up through 455. [depending on the gun's dimensions]
my old vaquero needed 453, my navy arms lever gun will shoot 451 jacketed rounds exactly the same as 452 cast.
my 1911 will do the same thing.
44's are quite often the same way they will shoot best with 429,431, or up to 434.

[mdi]

this is a rifle, not a revolver.
So, slug the barrel and measure the chamber. Same principle...