BSA Cadet rifle in 32-20, groove/chamber incompatibility.

[stubbicatt]

Learned a whole lot with this rifle. It started life as a 310 Cadet chambered firearm, and sometime in the 50's I hear, it was rechambered in 32-20. Groove diameter measures at 319", so I'm in search of a .320" bullet mould. Problem is, a sample case expanded with a .320" expander plug was a snug push fit in the chamber.

The 310 Cadet used a heeled bullet like our modern day 22 long rifle cartridges. I guess I could experiment with heeled bullets, but not having done that before, I have a reluctance. I would need to have the heel part of the bullet properly dimensioned to be snugly held by the 32-20 case mouth, and haven't actually gotten my noodle around what those dimensions should look like. Not to mention whether the throat ahead of the chamber will accommodate the bullet, as it might be too long.

However the chamber of the 32-20 is designed for something like .314" bullets, which is what I have cast up so far. I do not expect any accuracy to speak of out of the .319 bore.

I took my RCBS 32-40 expander which measures exactly .320" (it is too small for 32-40 in my estimation, and has been replaced in use with a BACO custom expander plug), and ran it in a 32-20 case, opening the neck to that dimension, plus or minus. It fit in the chamber, but it was a snug push fit. It ejected readily. I did this thinking perhaps I can get a .320" bullet to fit and shoot in the .319" bore.

My current plan is to get a .317" BACO expander and a .320" 110 grain mould made for the rifle, and assemble rounds on those dimensions. The concern I have is the tight fit of the test cartridge in the chamber, and whether there will be enough room for the case neck to expand to release the bullet upon firing. I realize my methods of measuring are rudimentary. I may make a chamber casting to see what we have here.

The only other approach I can think of is to remove the barrel from the receiver and have the chamber neck opened up a couple thousandths to accommodate a .320" bullet.

Suggestions? Ideas?

[curator]

I have a Martini Cadet "rechambered" to take .32-20 cartridges as well. You might start with a chamber cast to actually measure the chamber/throat area. The "heeled" bullet cast from BHN 12-15 alloy is the correct one to shoot accurately. I have a CBE mould that casts 120 grain slugs with a short .310" "heel" and a .322" ogive. I tumble-lube these with Lee liquid alox and "thumb-start" them in unsized fired brass cases. RCBS sells a bullet mould for this as well. Lee makes a "factory crimp" die for the .32-20 if you feel you must crimp the bullets in place, but I have found no need to do this with mine, simplifying the reloading process and eliminating the working of the brass cases. Simply re-prime, load powder, seat bullet and shoot. I have been shooting the same 100 cases for about 20 years and have lost only one to the mouth splitting. My favorite load is 4.5 to 5 grains of Unique or Blue Dot powder for a velocity of about 1250 fps. This load shoots to the sights on these fine old guns.

I have helped several shooting friends get their rechambered Cadets to shoot, and a few have had to trim the .32-20 case a bit to get the heeled bullets to chamber properly. Mostly it just works as originally designed, substituting the slightly longer, thicker rimmed .32-20 brass for the hard-to-get .310 Greener cases. I have an original Cadet not re-chambered and making brass for it is a pain, having to thin the rim and shorten .32-20 cases to fit. However, there is no difference in the accuracy of the converted rifle using the same bullet loaded as above.

[Outpost75]

I used the RCBS 32-120 Cadet heeled bullet in mine.

[swamp]

I have the heeled boolits for the Cadet. My guns are in the original 310. If you would like to try some let me know. How close to Denver are you?
swamp

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The concern I have is the tight fit of the test cartridge in the chamber, and whether there will be enough room for the case neck to expand to release the bullet upon firing. I realize my methods of measuring are rudimentary. I may make a chamber casting to see what we have here.



It is easy to say that you would be OK with this sort of fit, in a strong action and with a relatively modest powder charge and cast bullet. I think you most likely will, but at the very least you should work up to it from low charges, and check every loaded round very carefully in case you get an oversized bullet or a case which is thick in the neck.

Back in the 1920s there was an experimental issue of National Match .30-06 ammunition with tinned cupro-nickel jacketed bullets. It was extremely good at preventing serious metallic fouling. But I believe it was Col. Townsend Whelen who found out that it drastically increased the bullet pull, to the extent of breaking the test machine.

Nonetheless this didn't cause accidents. What did was the members of the intellectual classes who, despite instructions to the contrary, lubricated those bullets with grease. When things happen quickly enough, a liquid, or grease, behaves very much like a solid, and it was enough to cause breech explosions. This suggests to me that bullets don't pull out of the case at all. The case is expanded to release them, like blowing into a rubber glove, and you don't leave much room for this to happen.

People certainly do get good accuracy with the standard cadet and bullet, but I think the heel bullet isn't something I'd choose to go back to, when you are so close to not needing one. Relieving the neck slightly is one possibility, but you would have to buy a neck reamer, and probably specially made. Another possibility would be to ream or turn your case necks thinner. But before any of that I would try a bullet of anything between .316 and .319, to see if it expands to seal the grooves. There is a good chance that it will, if it is reasonably soft. Of course you don't want to pay for a special mould only for an experiment. I would lathe turn the test bullets from sticks of lead cast in a steel tube. Or you could expand smaller bullets larger with two punches (the nose can be flat for this purpose) in a hole drilled with an O sized (i.e. .316in.) drill in a piece of metal.

[stubbicatt]

Thanks fellas. I think the heeled bullet is the way I will go with this one.

After looking at the fired cases, they appear to be a nearly straight taper, no shoulder left in them. I sort of figured the majority of the chamber may have been that 310 Greener chamber. I wonder if the chamber reamer the Aussies used to convert them to 32-20 might not have only opened the rim seat and base of the cartridge, but left the rest intact?

The bore on this rifle is just perfect. Even shooting 314's yesterday I was ringing the 200 yard plate at the range. A really neat rifle for sure.

Only shot 10 shots, and there were some small blobules of lead in the first 6 inches of the bore, but they brushed right out.

At first I was happy to buy the rifle. Then I felt betrayed that it wasn't standard 32-20 dimensions. Now I am happy again. I feel like Snoopy doing a happy dance! :)

Ballistics in Scotland, that 32-20 brass is pretty darn thin as it is. I would be reluctant to neck turn any of the brass for fear of a neck separation, which is a really unhappy experience. Nonetheless, I appreciate the ideas. If the heeled bullet doesn't work out, I guess plan "B" would address reaming the chamber neck a little bit, and returning to a .321" bullet sort of setup.

[stubbicatt]

I have the heeled boolits for the Cadet. My guns are in the original 310. If you would like to try some let me know. How close to Denver are you?
swamp

Swamp, we spoke on the phone awhile ago about 45-70's. I went ahead on and bought the RCBS mould. It should be here by Wednesday. Thank you for your generous offer. --Got any good sources for lead? ;)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I told this tale once before on another thread. I once owned one of the Martini Cadets that had been converted to .32-20. I purchased a box of .32-20 WCF mfg. by Remington and went through most of the box of 50 without hitting anything at all. The first half of the box left me so puzzled that I fired the remaining rounds at a smooth dirt embankment about 50 yards distant and learned that no two rounds hit in the same location. I was about age 15 at the time and not well funded, so I set it aside. I didn't want to get rid of it because it was almost new in appearance. Years passed and one day I happened to read a letter in the American Rifleman by a fellow that had the same problem, but he had figured out that the .32-20 bullet is closer to .30 cal. and the .310 Cadet was closer to .32. So he started loading with .32 S&W wadcutters and experienced fantastic accuracy. I dug the rifle out, bought a box of .32 wadcutters and tried it out. I found that once the powder was added to the case one could start the bullet with their fingers, then turn it upside down and press the bullet against a table top to push it into the case and seat it flush. No dies needed. It worked just like the fellow said, and the Cadet became very accurate. So much so, in fact, that it became boring. Desiring more flash and bang I sold it for well over $400 back in the 1990s, one of my many mistakes in life. Anyway, you might give it a try.

[swamp]

I don't have any reliable steady sources. Always looking. I have gone to shooting ww or 20-1 in mine. I could trade you a bit if you need.
swamp

[square butte]

Saw one at a guns shop a couple of hours from home last week - Chambered in 32 Winchester special. Could hardly believe my eyes. Had to ask the owner if I was reading the chamber marking correctly. He confirmed that it was indeed chambered in in 32 WS.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The .32 Winchester Special was a moderately popular rechambering for them, but not, I think, as good as that slightly unusual .32-20. Some people will tell you the 3/4in. diameter barrel threads can swell, producing hard extraction. But some have used it with no such problems, and I think it is only likely with gross overloads or a case based on the .44 Magnum. It will, however, recoil excessively for a rifle of the Cadet's weight and stock design.

[pietro]

.

Converting .310 Cadet to .32 Winchester involves also deepening the loading groove in the top of the breechblock to accommodate the much longer cartridge - AND, being so lightweight a rifle, results in felt recoil that's like getting kicked in the chops by a mule. :happy dance:


.

[Hooker53]

The RCBS heeled Boolits are the way to go on this gun. On mine anyway. I had to trim my case length down a few thousands at a time setting a boolet after every trim until it would chamber. After that, I knew what my case length would be. Between four or five grains of Unique and it shoots like a dream. IV also had good luck with a case full of Trail Boss as well. Swamp and a lot of the other Cadet owners were VERY helpful after I bought mine.

There is also another member on here that cast some good Reg .32 cal hollow base Boolits that are looking real promising. Good luck with your loads. It looks like you are on the right track. These little rifles ate a lot of fun.

Roy
Hooker53

[rmark]

I use 32-20 brass trimmed down to 1.15 inches, with the RCBS heeled bullet and 4.0 grains Universal powder. In essence it's a 310 cadet long. Accuracy so far is 2" at 25 yards, but I'm still working on that. Maybe a bit more powder or softer lead.

I suspect the 32-20 reamer used to rechamber the barrel produced something like a long throated 310 cadet chamber. Brass trimmed to 1.0 inches resulted in 8" groups with keyholes, trimmed 1.2 inches had to be pushed into the chamber.

I tried the .32 wad cutter in untrimmed 32-20 brass with 4.0 Universal, had about 3" groups at 25 yards with occasional flyers.

[Hooker53]

rmark. It would seem that a lot of these little cadets had Dif depth chambers to a small degree. Especially when someone hand fed a 32-20 reamer down in it. After this is done, Bad A-- Wallace calls it a 310 Greener Mag. That's what I tell everyone around here it is. Ha.

[stubbicatt]

Oddly enough, the little girl shot really well yesterday at 100 yards using 314 bulleted ammo. Ordered up the RCBS mould. I guess it should arrive sometime this week. We'll work on building some loads with that bullet.

Thanks everybody.

Regards,
Stubb

[Black Beard]

I normally shoot my 310 with 120 grain RCBS heeled bullets. 4 grains of trail boss in a 310 case. It is very good.

I’ve tried paper patching a backwards bullet which worked fine but the Lee 314-155-2Rs were too long for the rate of spin given theloads I was playing with. The remaining case capacity (0.6cc) doesn’t hold enough powder to make much velocity. 32-20 might work better as you could get them coming out at 1200fps+so more stable. Or if you have a 32 mould for a shorter bullet it would be better as long as it has a step down to a nose section.

I tried a custom 8mm gas check on the front of a 32 wadcutter which worked to seal the front of the bullet. Accuracy was not as good as the RCBS bullet but it showed potential.

Have a look at the 32-20 chamber dimensions:
http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/32-20%20Winchester.pdf
The neck tapers by 4 thou but .319 bullet + 0.012?? cartridge walls is too big for the neck, even if you cut them down.

BB

[stubbicatt]

Yes. Except the chamber on this rifle really closely resembles the 310 chamber. No vestige of a shoulder at all, just a taper from the case head to the case mouth. Best of all worlds. I am not sure yet whether I'll need to trim the cases back to allow chambering, but I'll find out once I make up a dummy round.

The RCBS heeled bullet mould arrived last night. I can't wait to get casting. What a magnificent rifle.

[Black Beard]

Sounds like a very versatile rifle. How much do they go for in the states? Going price for a reasonable one here is £650 ($1000) as an antique.

[stubbicatt]

Black Beard, that's about what we paid for it. But it is mint. Really a beautiful rifle. Bright sharp bore, clean wood, a magnificent rear sight. I'm impressed! BSA made good rifles as well as good motorcycles!

[downunderrunner]

holy.............................................. ..... 650 quid???????????? i just paid $400 aud for a vic gov marked cadet in .297-230 morris!

[stubbicatt]

Good news. The RCBS heeled bullet mould arrived, and made some boolits yesterday. They are an easy slip fit in the 32-20 case mouths. Unfortunately, they are a little too long to chamber in the rifle, so I'll get a Lee 32 magnum trimmer to trim the fired cases to 1.2 inches.

The issues as I see them now is that the as fired cases are *just* a little too large to securely hold a heeled bullet, and pan lubing promises to be interesting. Perhaps if the boolits can be pushed out from the bullet base, they will leave grease in the groove, but not adhering to the heeled portion. The issue of increasing neck tension on the heel enough to hold them in place is a little more problematic.

It seems the necks will be trimmed approximately 0.75" shorter, so they should size down just fine in the 32-20 FL die. Expanding them and flaring them just enough to hold the bullet might take a little figuring them out. I have also read elsewhere that the seating die is probably incompatible with these larger diameter heeled bullets, that they tend to get stuck in the standard seating die, which seating operation will become necessary if I cannot thumb seat them.

Anybody know if the Lee FCD will crimp a 1.2" long case onto the heeled base? Best option seems to me to be hand seating bullets in "as fired" cases, and crimping them if possible.

[curator]

Using Lee liquid alox for lube has the added advantage of being sticky enough to "glue" the bullets into the cases without a crimp.

[Black Beard]

I am pretty sure that the Lee 3 die set have expanded and seated RCBS heeled bullets in 1.075 cases. 1.2 should be no problem. You might be able to neck size using a short 32 pistol sized like 32 auto. I haven't got access to a book that would tell me what would work at the moment.

The .323 bullets definitely get stuck. It is very annoying.

[Hooker53]

Stubbicatt, I had the same seating prob you did and setting the Boolit by hand is the only way for my cases. The Lee FCD won't work on the trimmed cases as I tried to make it work. I had to alter the FCD to work with the trimmed cases. If you want one done, PM me and I'll fire my lathe up and do it. A lot of my problems went way when I started Factory crimping them. I also upside down size mine in my Lyman 450 so I can grease the lube groove. This also assures the crimping on them. Keep shooting guys

Roy
Hooker53

[stubbicatt]

So Hooker53, you reckon just to thumb seat them, and then FCD them with a modified FCD? If that will work, that's definitely the way to go. I still have to make an estimate at how much shorter the cases need to be to chamber properly. There is a youtube video by an Australian Veterinarian on loading the 310 Greener, and he suggests using the 32 Magnum Lee trimmer to get the cases to 1.2 inches, which is where I will start.

Once I have that length determined, I'll send a PM to work out the details on shortening the die and collet assemblies on the Lee FCD. Thanks for offering to help in that regard.

I'd much prefer to pan lube, but if not I feel confident that Lathesmith can make a die and punch set that will work on my Star lube sizer with one row of holes to just fill the groove without greasing the heel. But that is a little further down the road I think, if I can't make pan lube work.

I have tried the LLA before and I just didn't like it all that much. It might be a tidy answer, and I may try it, but only if I can't make the other methods work first.

[Hooker53]

I was the same way on the LLA. In this case, i do t like my Boolit completly covered in ot. That's why I lube mine upside down in my Lyman 450 after I primmer, charge and set the Boolit. I learned to do that with my 38 rim fire #2 Rem rolling block that I changed over to a center fire. I got A mould company to make a brass mould with two diff Wt's of heeled Boolits and with the mould I bought a straight punch that you Act push the Boolit down the size/lube die first. The rim of the brass is what the top punch pushes. With the heel already in the case, the only thing that gets the lube is the groove. Very neat and clean. That cleanliness may depend on you vi tags of die. Some has more holes at diff areas. Luckily mine don't get much lube on the Boolit nose because of the shape of it. If it does, it's an easy clean up.

Well, I said if it works so well with my 38 roller, why not with my 310 Greener Mag. Luckily enough, my Boolit of my 38 can be the same Dia. As the case so if I size down beyond the case, no harm done. Unlike the Cadet round where the Boolit must be a larger Dia. Then the case, I can't push that into the die as far. Thus, that where I get the idea of taking a Lee Fact crimp die, pressing it apart and Faceing both the crimp part and the die body down. The reason being, my land and grooves are the largest reported here so far. .323. Because of that, I can use a 324 Lyman Lube die and come out right if I don't push down to far into the die.

After I took as much off the crimp part as I needed, I had to shorten the body enough to keep it from bottoming out on the stroke. The Epilogue to this story, is now I'm ruined on moulds after I bought a brass mould. Using a brass mould for me is like a walk in the park. Ha. I took somewhere around .125 off the FCD but that may vary with yours. After you are sold on your case length, you will need to send me one or two of them to Mic. After its done, the FCD with be set to your CL. Keep us abreast of your work and let me know if I can help with the lathe work.

lord knows as much as Skeetex, Swamp, Caliloo and all the rest helps me, I can give some back. All it will cost you is the wait!! Ha. Ha.


Roy
Hooker53

[stubbicatt]

After taking the action out of the receiver, and dropping a standard 32-20 round loaded with a heeled bullet into the chamber, I was able to take measurements and the cartridge case needs to be 1.1 inches long. So ordered up a Lee trimmer gizmo yesterday. I think with the modified FCD that this arrangement should work nicely, no need to resize the cases, just decap, recap, charge with powder, thumb seat bullet, slight crimp, and off to the range. Nice and simple.

Also found some load data at 10 grains of IMR 4227 which is supposed to get the thing shooting to 1200 fps. I reckon I'll start at 9 grains with small pistol primers and work my way up, watching for pressure signs. Maybe try some 2400 powder too, as I have a pretty good stock of that, and it is quite similar to 4227.

Tried 3.5 grains 231 and it was a neat little pop gun with the .314" boolits we shot through it to get some fire formed cases.

In essence, I think this is a 310 Greener chamber which will accept the larger case head diameter of 32-20, and the thicker rims.

Really neat little rifle.

[gnoahhh]

My first Cadet, from 35 years ago, was one of those re-chambered to .32-20. Out of ignorance I simply bought a set of .32-20 dies and a .32-20 mould and and happily shot the heck out of it. Accuracy was splendid- I could shoot clay birds offhand set at 100 yards all day long. Ones I have had since then didn't pan out as well, and the one I'm working with now (in original chambering) requires the heeled bullets for best shooting. Sometimes you get lucky, usually you don't with these things.

[Bigslug]

After looking at the fired cases, they appear to be a nearly straight taper, no shoulder left in them. I sort of figured the majority of the chamber may have been that 310 Greener chamber. I wonder if the chamber reamer the Aussies used to convert them to 32-20 might not have only opened the rim seat and base of the cartridge, but left the rest intact?

Scroll down on the Single Shot Guns page until you find Hooker53's thread titled "More Cadet Talk" and read of our adventures. It'll take you a couple of days to digest it all, but there's a lot of good intel there about the various .32-20 conversions. Pay special attention to the posts of Bad @$$ Wallace, as he describes the chamber that I (and I think you also) have. I think I've revved the engine a little hotter than most, so if you have inspirations of taking game with it, I might have some useful data there for you as well.

About the only thing useful mine can do with standard .32-20 ammo is fire form brass - it could probably hold it's own with a Brown Bess musket for accuracy. Once formed, my cases take a custom LBT 130 grain flat nose cast at .3205", and sized to .320", which shoot wonderfully out of the bore that as best I could determine is .3185"

[Huvius]

One common method of crimping the heeled boolit is to drill a properly sized hole in a wire stripping tool allowing a squeeze around the case mouth.
Also, there are some motorcycle chain spray waxes out there which work great as lubes for heeled boolits. I tried Maxima (which is very much like Alox) but changed to another brand, which of course, I forget. Will check this evening.
Wurth works great according to a shooter in the UK but don't remember if it is available in the US.
As for lead, pure lead is easy and cheap from big recyclers in the form of roof flashing and drain pipes. Have found some ingots there too.

[kopperl]

Mine shoots minuet of turtle with a heeled boolit over 5.5 gns Unique in 1.1 case.

[stubbicatt]

Thanks fellas. Big slug, I feel sort of foolish now starting this thread, as the one you referenced has a whole lot of information. I guess I need to work on my search skills. Nonetheless, I appreciate the patience of you guys in answering this thread.

Huvius, I like that idea on drilling a wire crimper/cutter. I'll have to give it a go. Do you suppose I would do well to drill between the pivot bolt and the handles, or between the pivot bolt and the other end of the cutter/crimper? What do you reckon, .002 to .003" crimp sound about right? Drill the hole .003" smaller than heel diameter plus case wall thickness? 'Course I'm not sure I will be able to find a drill bit that size exactly, so it may be a compromise... I have some of that "Chain Wax" that sure smells like Alox to me. It doesn't seem to fling off my "O" ring chain, but it doesn't last very long on my non "O" ring chain. -Tho the leaky gearbox main shaft seems to keep the chain nice and oily! LOL. About every 500 miles when I change primary chain case lubricant, I top off the gearbox. Seems to work. :)

[Huvius]

.002-.003 crimp would be great if you can drill to that precision.
You don't need the leverage that putting the hole on the handle side of the pivot would give but would still keep the strippers functional as strippers.
One thing to try is to shim the plier open a few thou before drilling so you have that much compression to work with. My tool at first had a hole which was roughly case mouth sized and would work fine on some cases and not enough on others. I had to file the entire length of the inside edges to allow it to close a bit more but that could have been obviated if I had drilled them with them open a bit as it would allow me to crimp with some 'feel'.
Of course, if I had the tools, I could have just drilled another hole with the stripper a bit opened... that would have been easier.

[Hooker53]

Stubbi, now your catching on. That sizing trick Huvius is talking about is the same thing I do with a sizing die. I just get a nice groove full of lube on the Boolit doing it the way i doit. I do admit that the depth I push it into the die and the mount of pressure I have on my lube determans how clean my Boolit comes out. That's the reason I just took on a Savage 23-C in 32-20 so I have the lube below the case mouth BUT, it will never shoot as well as my Cadet 310 Greener Mag. Ha. enjoy and keep us posted. Your next step will be finding a peep site for your Cadet and ordering a Lyman 17-A for the front. Ha. Ha.

Roy

[linus]

I have two 310 cadets. The first had been rechambered to 32-20, and, as expected, its .316 groove diameter did not stabilize a .311 bullet. I contacted LBT (lead bullet technology) who made me a custom mold for a 100 gr gas check bullet. The bullet when sized measured .318 and shoots like a dream. I restocked the rifle in figured walnut and replaced the front sight with a globe sight with a post and replaced the rear sight with an aperture sight on the back of the receiver designed for Martinis.
My second 310 is still in the 310 caliber. This rifle also shoots well as is with 120 gr heeled bullets which I cast from a brass mold supplied by CBE (Cast Bullet Engineering) in Australia. This is an excellent mold. The bullet falls right out after opening the mold. I use a very soft bullet usually 1:50. I noticed harder bullets lead more. The only leading I have had shooting this bullet soft is when I tried lubing the bullets by shaking them in a container of paste wax. I had read this was a good way to lube heeled bullets. It didn't work well for me. My previous method was done by painting Lee's liquid alox diluted with alcohol to make it thinner into the lube groove. I am still looking for less tedious way of lubing these bullets. Any ideas?
Interestingly the 100 gr gas check bullet I use in the 32-20 Cadet works well in the rifle still in 310. I do it by sliding the bullet separately into the chamber followed by a charged case with a card wad to hold the powder in place. It's called breech seating. I also use a card wad at the base of the 310 bullet.