Hollow points

[kentuckyshooter]

Ok i know theres 2 acepted ways to make hollow points. Buy a mold or make 1. What im thinking on is just drilling a hollow point into the 2 RN bullets im curently using. I dont realy want to tie up extra money in molds that will seldom be used for low volume specilty bullets. I know someones had this thought befor and i was just looking for ideas and ewperences befor i embark down this road. As stated i cast 2 RN boolits. 1 in 9mm and 1 in 45 acp.

[NavyVet1959]

There is a jig that is sold that supposedly helps center the drill bit, but I believe it is based on drilling loaded rounds.

The problem with drilling a hollowpoint is getting the hole perfectly centered and taking the exact same amount out on each bullet. I tried once centering it by eye while holding a bullet under a bit mounted in my drill press and it didn't turn out that close to the center.

If the drill is stationary and the bullet is rotating (like with a lathe), you will get a centered hole, but if you start out off-center, the hole will just have a larger diameter.

After trying it a couple of times and not getting results that I considered acceptable, I gave up.

I've also tried using a Phillips bit and an arbor press to make a "scored" hollowpoint in a bullet. The end result was that the bit was driven into the bullet and it was difficult to remove.

I guess you could create a holder for the bullet that mounted onto the drill press's platform and after a bit of trial and error, get the holder positioned so that the bullet was really centered. I haven't been ambitious enough to try this yet.

[petroid]

look for the forster hollow point jig

[Tatume]

Several years ago I tested the 1/8" Forster Hollow Pointer (they also make a 1/16" version). I adjusted my alloy so solid 320 grain bullets would rivet when fired at 1400 fps into densely packed-and-bound saturated telephone books. Then I tested hollow point bullets in the same medium. There was no difference. Later I readjusted the alloy so solid bullets would mushroom, and ran the test again; still no difference. In my opinion the Forster device doesn't make a sufficiently large cavity.

[Jupiter7]

Hollow point molds have interchangeable pins. Only make "specialty" bullets when needed. I do this with several molds. Most the time I just split the pins up and cast flat and HP at the same time.

[OnHoPr]

Several years ago I tested the 1/8" Forster Hollow Pointer (they also make a 1/16" version). I adjusted my alloy so solid 320 grain bullets would rivet when fired at 1400 fps into densely packed-and-bound saturated telephone books. Then I tested hollow point bullets in the same medium. There was no difference. Later I readjusted the alloy so solid bullets would mushroom, and ran the test again; still no difference. In my opinion the Forster device doesn't make a sufficiently large cavity.

What is truly in question with all this so called penetration media like phone books, catalogs, moist sand, ballistics jell, water jugs, and what not is really just something to show something of what the boolit might do if it hits full shoulder meat with maybe bone or a raking shot on the ham and guts. There is not any actual test that I have seen what happens when a boolit hits hair, hide, a sliver of meat, soft green rib, and a pneumatic system full of air with a smidgen moist blood in there. Do cast boolits or really any other bullets mushroom on air at under 3500 fps? So, who is to say that the hollow point didn't preform as the metplat does on initial contact though probably a little different in that first inch or so compared to the softpoint. All these boolits are being shown after full travel through whatever medium. Not like shootin a deer broadside right behind the front shoulder ribs in through lungs and ribs out with a 358 win with a 250 cast, Hey where's the boolit.

[jmort]

"Do cast boolits or really any other bullets mushroom on air at under 3500 fps?"

Yes

[44man]

Many good points made and it is true nothing you shoot will give you the answer except the animal you hunt. I have been working on this for 30 years with my revolvers and I will never use a HP again for deer.
One problem is getting the alloy right so it works without stopping penetration or breaking up and having accuracy. +
There is a relationship between the caliber, meplat, boolit weight and velocity that can't be ignored. As you change any of these things, you might need some expansion but to determine how much means an animal.
I have several calibers worked out so the deer is on the ground when the hammer drops without any loss of meat but still have one to fix.
The line you walk is very thin but when right, it is amazing to see deer drop at the shot even hit behind the shoulders. Too make it even better is I would use my guns on the largest animals there are with complete confidence.

[Blackwater]

I'm with 44man on this, mostly, but the testing I once did a long while back now with .357 indicated that with HP's, it's always a balancing act. To get the right expansion without breakup, you have to balance alloy, velocity and HP size to get things "just right," like Baby Bear's bed. HP's CAN work, but it's a narrower range of the 3 factors above that give you just the right combination of factors to get just the right results. Extra tin tends to help the bullet hold together while it expands.

If I were trying it now, I think I'd go with something like 50/50 WW/soft for alloy with at least 4% and preferably 6% tin added, be sure it fit the cylinder throats well, load it up and try it. This should make a really good performing HP for the field. If it's a little soft, just reduce the amount of soft lead in our alloy until you get things just right.

[44man]

"Do cast boolits or really any other bullets mushroom on air at under 3500 fps?"

Yes
Absolutely. Even to the point of utter destruction. Even from a revolver. I have 180 revolver deer and know exactly what each gun does and even they can turn a deer to a mush pile. They can fail as fast too. You can go from a loss to sucking up burger with a sponge.

[Tatume]

What is truly in question with all this so called penetration media like phone books, catalogs, moist sand, ballistics jell, water jugs, and what not is really just something to show something of what the boolit might do if it hits full shoulder meat with maybe bone or a raking shot on the ham and guts. There is not any actual test that I have seen what happens when a boolit hits hair, hide, a sliver of meat, soft green rib, and a pneumatic system full of air with a smidgen moist blood in there. Do cast boolits or really any other bullets mushroom on air at under 3500 fps? So, who is to say that the hollow point didn't preform as the metplat does on initial contact though probably a little different in that first inch or so compared to the softpoint. All these boolits are being shown after full travel through whatever medium. Not like shootin a deer broadside right behind the front shoulder ribs in through lungs and ribs out with a 358 win with a 250 cast, Hey where's the boolit.

Not true. What is in question is will the bullet perform or not. If one does a direct comparison and there is no difference between two tests, then there is no difference.

[44man]

My fastest killing revolver was the .475 BFR with a 420 gr WFN at 1329 fps. It will go 37" in soaked phone books. It will blow 4 gallon jugs of water, spit the 5th and penetrate 17 in a straight line.
Now I got the 440 gr .500 JRH to kill faster with half the nose cast softer. I found the boolit weight was making it worse so half the nose soft turned it into a hammer.
With my .44 a Rem factory HP went 11". With the RD 265 it does 33" and with my 330 gr it does 34" in phone books. It has killed every deer fast as has the Lee 310. Hard cast.
The .475 has gone through 16" of seasoned oak fire wood. It drops 99% of deer right now. Any that run never make 30 yards. This is what the .475 does with a heart shot using a 22 BHN boolit.150829 Why would I use a HP?
You just can not tell until you open an animal.

[longbow]

What is your purpose for the hollow point boolits? Fun? Hunting? I'm guessing not with 9mm and .45ACP. Self defense?

If just for fun shooting and blowing up water jugs or testing expansion then extreme accuracy is not an issue so you can probably get away with drilling by eye or making a simple drill jig... or get the Forster too as already mentioned.

Also for blowing up water jugs, you really don't have to worry much about alloy. Brittle alloys like straight wheelweights and harder will usually shed the nose in my experience but they still blow up water jugs.

If you want controlled expansion then you will have to play with alloy and cavity size.

The easiest way to produce hollow point boolits is a multi cavity HP mould like the Mihec Cramer or the NOE moulds. They do cost a bit though.

If you only want a few then a drill jig works well enough.

Something else that may tickle your fancy is making a meplat on those RN boolits. Dale53 sent me a series of articles by Ed Harris many years ago and one of them was about putting a flat nose on .22 rimfire bullets and how much more effective they are than the RN. So, I mad a simple file jig and tried some into a Bullet Test tube (expansion tester) and sure enough the flat nose expanded into a nice mushroom where the RN just penetrated. You would need a fairly soft alloy for that to be effective though.

Longbow

[44man]

I do not like the .454 or .460 since they are so fast, a cast boolit needs much more work for deer while they work for larger animals. I prefer a .45 Colt for deer even if slower.
Do not believe in hole size alone. You must place energy in the right place. But energy dump does not work. If you think stopping a boolit inside is better you have not hunted enough. To recover a boolit in a deer is a failure. Loss after penetration is a myth.
Bullet makers have worked years to get expansion without a loss of penetration. Why would you do other?

[NavyVet1959]

In general, I'm of the belief that 2 holes are better than one. That's why I don't feel all that underarmed when carrying a 10mm with cast bullets for self-defense.

[Larry Gibson]

I've been using the Forster 1/8 and 1/16" HP tool for many years on cast and jacketed bullets from 22 through 45 caliber. Yes the bullets are HP'd after loading so other than a case trimmer which the HP tool is used with there is no other special moulds required, you just HP and use the bullets you have. The trick is to use the correct alloy and use the correct size depth of the HP for the bullet/alloy/use intended. None of that is rocket science and already has been done.....the tricky part is getting you, the user, to use the information..........seems everyone, bullet casters in particularly want to do it their own way. The Forster HP tool is not hard to use correctly and there really isn't any need to reinvent the wheel as far as alloy or HP depth is concerned.

The age old argument to use or not to use a HP, RN, SWC, WFN or "hard cast" is a horse that has been beaten to death. No sense beating it anymore here; either you're going to use the HP or not. If you've decided to use the HP as the OP obviously has then by all means do so, just please use a correct alloy and HP the bullets correctly for the use with a HP mould or with the Forster HP tool. I've found with the 9mm and the 45 ACP that a fairly soft alloy is needed; I prefer 30 or 20-1 alloy. A large wide mouth HP is best and a WFN or RN cast bullet seems to work best.

I've some 9mm or 45s around that I HP'd with the Forster tool. I see if I can find them and post a pic or two.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Decided instead of finding some old ones I'd just whip out a 45 ACP to get pic's a demonstrate it's not hard at all to HP with the Forster HP tool. pictures show the 1/8" HP tool in the Forster case trimmer set for the 45 ACP cartridge. One picture shows the drill and the next shows the centering tool. It's not hard to center the drill at all with the tool as the drill is centered on the bullet nose before the collet is finish tightened.

I drill the initial 1/8" hole the depth of the drill which was .32". For low velocity handgun rounds or large caliber bullets (.375 - .45) I use a 1/8 x 5/16" counter sink to open the HP. The 1/8" centers in the 1/8" hole already drilled in the bullet with the HP tool. I also open and deepen the HP to .32" with the countersink. It can be done by hand with the countersink or with a drill press or vertical mill with a mill table. If by hand a separate chuck or other tool to hold and twist the countersink helps. Note the HPs are quite well centered.

It's not hard nor does it take long to HP 50 rounds this way. Took longer to take pictures and write this post than to HP the bullets.

The bullet used is 225 gr RN. Any of the 220 - 230 gr TC cast bullets would be very good to use. I'm looking for a Lyman 452484 as the GC would alloy for softer alloys to be used at +P velocities.

Larry Gibson

150839150840150841150842

[Tatume]

The bullets I tested were modified using the tool as supplied by Forster. The addition of a countersink significantly changes things. I have little doubt that bullets with a large hollow cavity as pictured above would expand substantially. This is a very good upgrade to the basic Forster tool, if one wishes to use hollow point bullets.

On that subject I have thoughts also. For self defense in the woods I carry the fastest, lightest, hollow point ammunition I can, based on the threat I perceive. I hear people talk about protection against bears, and in some areas bears are a real threat (e.g. Montana, Alaska). Here in the Eastern U.S. you almost never hear of a bear attack. Yet every year people are bitten by rabid skunks and foxes (my brother included, while at work and prohibited from carrying a firearm). These are the greater threat, and for them a devastating expanding bullet is my choice.

Now I need to acquire another Forster Hollow Pointer. :-)

Take care, Tom

[NavyVet1959]

I'm more interested in being able to just hollowpoint the cast bullets before they are loaded into the cartridge. If I screw up the hollowpointing, I don't want to have to go to the trouble of removing the bullet, reflaring the brass, and reloading the cartridge if at all possible. The problem is finding a way of holding the small bullet securely while not damaging it and having it perfectly aligned with the drill bit given the equipment that I have on hand. In other words, I don't want to end up buying a lathe just to hollowpoint some bullets. :)

I wonder if it would be possible to mount a cheap lathe chuck on the table of my drill press, align it with the drill press's chuck, and then be able to always drill centered hollow point holes in the bullets.

Harbor Freight has a 2" chuck for their mini-lathe that has a MT1 shaft for $30.

http://www.harborfreight.com/2-inch-mini-lathe-chuck-with-mt-1-shank-65132.html

Just need to figure out a way to mount that to the table of my drill press. Something that had a socket for a MT1 shaft and then a plate that could bolt to the drill press's table. Hopefully, the socket would fit in the existing center hole of my drill press's table.

[Tatume]

Why not just make a jig? Take a piece of steel (or aluminum, or possibly even oak) and clamp it to the drill press table. Drill a hole that is a close fit for the bullet. Remove the drill bit and replace it with a smaller bit. Put a bullet in the hole, and drill the hollow point. You will have to find a way to keep the bullet from spinning, but I would imagine that gripping it with padded pliers would suffice. You might want to do this before sizing and lubing the cast bullet. Experiment, I'm sure you can do it with a little ingenuity.

Of course, if you remove the piece from the drill table, you'll probably need to start over. Or, perhaps not. Just put the piece back, put the original bit in the drill press, lower the bit into the hole, clamp the piece to the table, and you're back in business.

[Larry Gibson]

Alloy is critical for all HP'd cast bullets but especially so with handgun bullets having a velocity of 850 - 1100 fps. It's why I prefer a GC'd bullet for those but a FB'd PB'd works also if a little fouling isn't minded. Usually not many of these types are fired. With handgun bullets I prefer to have no antimony in the alloy favoring a 30 - 1 or 20 - 1 alloy of plain lead and tin. With a GC'd bullet such as the 358156 cast of pure or 40-1 alloy the 1/8" Forster HP .32" deep gives every bit as good expansion as the fabled Winchester and Federal "FBI" 150 gr LSWCHP load. In the 9mm with the Lee 120 gr TC bullet cast of 20-1 alloy and HP'd with the 1/8" Forster tool 3/16" deep expansion is impressive at 1300 fps out of my CZ75.

In rifle cartridges either the 1/16 or 1/8" Forster tool suffice up through 35 caliber. Since the HP is not that deep and rifle bullets center better in the Forster tool there is little to make the holes "off center". I've HP'd a lot of them over the years and seldom is a Hole off center if the cartridge is concentric and put into the and aligned correctly in the case trimmer. That is not hard to do at all.

Shown are the 7.62x54R with 314299, the 35 Rem with the 35-200-FN and the 30 Carbine with the 313631 all HP'd with the 1/8" Forster HP tool.

Larry Gibson

150855150856150857150858

[dubber123]

Another tip to remember is that HP's work off hydraulic pressure to expand. If the tip gets plugged with a non hydraulic material, they can and will fail. The FBI discovered in the 70's that if they plugged the HP cavity with paraffin wax, their HP .38's worked every time. By pre-plugging them with a material that can flow after impact and start expansion, you help guarantee a more satisfactory result.

I tried this years ago using some leftover boolit lube in the HP's of my .38 Spl carry ammo. Whether into wood, water, through multiple layers of clothing, they always worked. Hornady and undoubtedly others use this same "new" technology with some of their carry ammo. The Critical Defense line, and PowRball come to mind. It's something to consider.

[Larry Gibson]

I long ago quit filling the HPs with lube as it collected dirt and sometimes melted out in hot weather. I started using Permatex Silicone sealant. After Hardening" it stays pliant, doesn't collect dirt and never comes out. Expansion has always been excellent through surface substances that can clog HPs.

Larry Gibson

[dubber123]

[QUOTE=Larry Gibson;3401003]I long ago quit filling the HPs with lube as it collected dirt and sometimes melted out in hot weather. I started using Permatex Silicone sealant. After Hardening" it stays pliant, doesn't collect dirt and never comes out. Expansion has always been excellent through surface substances that can clog HPs.

Larry Gibson

Larry, my first batch got plugged with LBT Blue Soft lube, and never melted out, but I doubt they ever saw much more than 100 degrees. My last batch got plugged with silicone as you do, but I haven't got to test them yet. I expect identical results.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

150868For the sort of hollow that is useful in a powerful rifle used for game (which isn't much), there is a simpler method than drilling. A bullet diameter die can be used with the two punches shown, and squashed in a large vice. It can also bee used to size a pan lubed bullet. If you really want to drill, you could substitute a sleeve to hold the bullet for the pointed punch, with a bore to locate your drill. The drill can be held in a knob or collar to turn it by hand, and stop it at the right amount of penetration.

[mold maker]

Put the drill bit in your press vice and center it to the chuck, with the quill extended more than the length of your boolit.
Put the boolit in the chuck and set the HP depth.
Drill the HPs very slowly. The only variable left is how deep, in the chuck, the boolit is set.

[NavyVet1959]

Why not just make a jig? Take a piece of steel (or aluminum, or possibly even oak) and clamp it to the drill press table. Drill a hole that is a close fit for the bullet. Remove the drill bit and replace it with a smaller bit. Put a bullet in the hole, and drill the hollow point. You will have to find a way to keep the bullet from spinning, but I would imagine that gripping it with padded pliers would suffice. You might want to do this before sizing and lubing the cast bullet. Experiment, I'm sure you can do it with a little ingenuity.

Of course, if you remove the piece from the drill table, you'll probably need to start over. Or, perhaps not. Just put the piece back, put the original bit in the drill press, lower the bit into the hole, clamp the piece to the table, and you're back in business.

I had also considered something like that, but was hoping for something that could be set up on center and then stay centered across multiple bullets.

Aligning it might consist of something like this:


Put a drill rod in the drill chuck, tighten it, and lower it to the lowest position.
Loosely attach the lathe chuck to the press's table so that it can still slide around a bit.
Raise the table until the drill rod is inside the lathe chuck.
Tighten the lathe chuck while also adjusting its position so that it ends up centered on the drill rod.
Loosen the jaws on the lathe chuck so that it no longer grips the drill rod.
Raise the drill chuck.
Loosen the jaws of the drill chuck and remove the drill rod



Hopefully, at this point you can put a bullet in the lathe chuck, tighten it, and set your depth stop on the drill press so that you will bore the same depth hole on each bullet and they will all be exactly in the center of the bullet.

Now, I have never tried this, nor have I ever worked with a lathe, so if anyone sees something that I've overlooked, feel free to point it out.

[NavyVet1959]

Put the drill bit in your press vice and center it to the chuck, with the quill extended more than the length of your boolit.
Put the boolit in the chuck and set the HP depth.
Drill the HPs very slowly. The only variable left is how deep, in the chuck, the boolit is set.

Unless you have something in the chuck to limit the depth the bullet can slide into it, using this method and getting a consistent depth could be problematic.

[NavyVet1959]

For the sort of hollow that is useful in a powerful rifle used for game (which isn't much), there is a simpler method than drilling. A bullet diameter die can be used with the two punches shown, and squashed in a large vice. It can also bee used to size a pan lubed bullet. If you really want to drill, you could substitute a sleeve to hold the bullet for the pointed punch, with a bore to locate your drill. The drill can be held in a knob or collar to turn it by hand, and stop it at the right amount of penetration.

Wouldn't that basically be swaging a hollowpoint into the bullet? I tried using an arbor press and phillips bit to swage a cross hollow point into a bullet a few times, but never could get it to release easily. Since I didn't have anything around the bullet, it increased in diameter also.

I've used sharpened rods / nails to drill holes in soft materials like wood before when I either could not find the right size drill bit or had broken it. I think that might also work with lead and as such, the hollowpointing would not decrease the weight of the bullet.

[NavyVet1959]

I wonder if the lathe chuck could be held securely with just a 7/16" or 15/32" hole drilled into a short piece of 2x6 and then the lathe chuck pounded / pressed into the hole until the lathe chuck was flush with the wood. The Morris Taper #1 is 0.4750" on the large end and 0.3690" on the small end with the taper per inch of 0.0499"

http://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The ordinary Jacobs-type chuck doesn't centre the drill as accurately as a bullet requires. In fact even a self-centring lathe chuck won't if it has been too strongly tightened up on steel workpieces, or frequently tightened up not quite too strongly. You would have to test it with a drill rod the same diameter as your bullet is going to be, and use a dial gauge on the table, or feeler gauges between the drill rod and a solid object clamped to the table, to check for concentricity of rotating.

What you need in the drill is a collet, and for a few bullets, such as 9mm. and .375 they are available ready-made. Most bench drills will take a Morse taper collet, which are tolerably cheap. If you don't use one of those bullets, you could have a collet to hold a centre drill like the one illustrated in post 17, and have the bullet on the table.

For the table a search on eBay for "collet", "collet chuck" and "collet fixture" will give you pictures and ideas - none of them, unfortunately cheap, and you may fine the Forster tool is better value. One possibility is a fixture like this, which you would have to realign each time. Best way is two drill rods of the same diameter held in the spindle collet and the table collet, and move the latter until a micrometer measurement where they meet is the same as the true diameter of one rod.

The hole in the table is likely to be cast and insufficiently accurate to align anything. If you want to go this route, a counterbore or micrometer boring head held in the spindle would do it. First I would align the table as accurately as I could, and then drill the table mount and column for a couple of large setscrews, to stop it swiveling round the column.

I would also try to work on bullets always at the same temperature. An unseen quality of lathe design is that thermal expansion off the headstock and tailstock changes their height by about the same amount, and there is no reason for manufacturers to make bench drills that way.

Remember, misalignment of a turning bullet, stationery bullet or turning drill produces an off-center hole. Misalignment of a stationery drill produces an oversize hole, which isn't nearly as bad.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I wonder if the lathe chuck could be held securely with just a 7/16" or 15/32" hole drilled into a short piece of 2x6 and then the lathe chuck pounded / pressed into the hole until the lathe chuck was flush with the wood. The Morris Taper #1 is 0.4750" on the large end and 0.3690" on the small end with the taper per inch of 0.0499"

http://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php

I think you would have to use a piece of metal, and use first a drill and then a Morse taper reamer held in the chuck or (better) a spindle collet.

Many bench drill users have no reason to know this, but the chuck is usually attached by a Morse taper, and lowering the quill reveals a slot in which a wedge, usually supplied, can be used to drive out the chuck.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

[QUOTE=NavyVet1959;3401384]Wouldn't that basically be swaging a hollowpoint into the bullet? I tried using an arbor press and phillips bit to swage a cross hollow point into a bullet a few times, but never could get it to release easily. Since I didn't have anything around the bullet, it increased in diameter also.

I've used sharpened rods / nails to drill holes in soft materials like wood before when I either could not find the right size drill bit or had broken it. I think that might also work with lead and as such, the hollowpointing would not decrease the weight of the bullet.[/QUOTE

That is exactly what it would be doing. The cylindrical die would have to be a close fit on the bullet and punches, and even so I would be happier to see the pointed punch penetrating well short of the bearing surface of the bullet. You don't need it to, anyway. The earliest Express rifle bullets and American copies were hollow almost back to the base in extreme cases. They worked fine on really soft-skinned and harmless animals, but on others they got numerous hunters quite seriously killed.

[Hickok]

Just wondering if anyone has tried paraffin wax in the nose of a hollowpoint?

[cainttype]

The Forster HPer actually works very well, and it's easy. Rigging a drill to the mainshaft makes it even easier.
There really isn't any reason to worry about screwing up and having to pull bullets. It takes very little time to familiarize yourself with the set-up, adjustments being made exactly the same as in regular trimming.
The only way I've seen that is easier would be to cast HPs in first place with a quality mould.

[MT Gianni]

Jim in Phoenix made and marketed a jig to hp cast bullets in a mold. As with many designs set up took some time but it was interesting to play with. The caliber specific collars helped with the problem of holding the bullet without marking it up. If I want to play with HP in a caliber NOE generally makes a RG mold and that is the easiest way to turn them out.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, and the mould does it for only one bullet, while the Forster tool will do it for just about all you could ever need. If I wanted hollow points I would bite on the bullet, figuratively speaking, and buy the tool.

It isn't as often advantageous as some people think, to have a hollow point. I did it with the swage tool I illustrated, and got pretty good accuracy with smokeless loads of about 1900ft./sec. in my .40-82 Winchester. But that rifle, constrained by tube magazine and allowable length to have flat noses, is a good example of one in which the hollow points are unlikely to bring any worthwhile advantage. The cartridge would surely become less able to penetrate brush, and a dropped cartridge always lands on the bullet nose, as surely as a piece of toast lands butter side down. You wouldn't be getting anything in exchange for those disadvantages.

[NavyVet1959]

I think you would have to use a piece of metal, and use first a drill and then a Morse taper reamer held in the chuck or (better) a spindle collet.

Many bench drill users have no reason to know this, but the chuck is usually attached by a Morse taper, and lowering the quill reveals a slot in which a wedge, usually supplied, can be used to drive out the chuck.

Mine supposedly uses a Jacobs Taper -- JT33. I don't remember seeing any wedge in the box, but since I have not thrown it away yet, I can look to see if I missed it.



That is exactly what it would be doing. The cylindrical die would have to be a close fit on the bullet and punches, and even so I would be happier to see the pointed punch penetrating well short of the bearing surface of the bullet. You don't need it to, anyway. The earliest Express rifle bullets and American copies were hollow almost back to the base in extreme cases. They worked fine on really soft-skinned and harmless animals, but on others they got numerous hunters quite seriously killed.

I tried an experiment to see how a phillips bit in my drill press would work to place a cross type "hollow point" in the bullet last night. It worked a lot better than my attempts with an arbor press. I just aligned these by eye, so it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't as bad as when I tried it with the arbor press. The problem with the arbor press was that I didn't have anything to hold the bit securely, so it was too easy to come in at an angle.

(full resolution) (http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/phillips-hollow-point.jpg)
http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/phillips-hollow-point-320w.jpg

[OnHoPr]

Well ya all pop eye swab jockey those don't look to bad for a prelim test especially the two on the left. The one on the top must have been with your good eye.lol Very interesting. I wonder if you could take a larger phillips screwdriver and sharpen it on the blades like sharpening a drill for easier insertion into the lead. Maybe even spray it with a release agent or WD40 or cooking oil spray for lube, maybe a combo of Murphy's oil soap & water. Make a V block vise with toggle clamp and center it below the chuck. You would be able to do just about any size boolit and do about a 100 an hour. I wonder how those would mushroom or quadroom eckspand. On that top one if you had a screwdriver big enough to go almost across the metplat then go in with a cone point on top of that it just may look devastating. That would be something I might try with the Lee 501 440.

[NavyVet1959]

Well ya all pop eye swab jockey those don't look to bad for a prelim test especially the two on the left. The one on the top must have been with your good eye.lol Very interesting. I wonder if you could take a larger phillips screwdriver and sharpen it on the blades like sharpening a drill for easier insertion into the lead. Maybe even spray it with a release agent or WD40 or cooking oil spray for lube, maybe a combo of Murphy's oil soap & water. Make a V block vise with toggle clamp and center it below the chuck. You would be able to do just about any size boolit and do about a 100 an hour. I wonder how those would mushroom or quadroom eckspand. On that top one if you had a screwdriver big enough to go almost across the metplat then go in with a cone point on top of that it just may look devastating. That would be something I might try with the Lee 501 440.

I was actually kind of surprised that they turned out as good as they did considering I was just eyeballing it, especially considering how bad it turned out when I tried to do it previously with an arbor press. I just used 3 bullets (9mm/.38, 10mm, .45ACP) that I had sitting on my reloading bench. They might have been rejects or just ones that escaped when I was last reloading or tumble lubing that caliber. :)

I believe I was using a #2 phillips bit. It's possible that a #3 would be better for the .45 though. Since the #3 is more blunt, perhaps it might be necessary to use a small file to sharpen lower edges of the 4 wings so that they would go into the bullet easier.

Now, if I still had a house that had a swimming pool, I would fire them into it to see how they expanded. Probably the best use for a home swimming pool around here (the water temperature is too high to actually *swim* in it most of the summer). :(

My bullet trap in my garage slows the bullets gradually enough that I don't tend to get any expansion, so it would not work (even if I was willing to dig through a few feet of deceleration media to find one particular bullet). :)

A Torx bit might also be interesting, but it is pretty flat on the tip, so that might not work that well.

[OnHoPr]

A Torx bit might work and make a decent HP. I think if you sharpen it in a way for easier penetration it would be helpful, you might/could heat it up with a benzo torch to help.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A Torx bit might also be interesting, but it is pretty flat on the tip, so that might not work that well.

I'm sure that is right about the standard Torx bit, but there is also a special Torx tamperproof or security bit to stop people unscrewing things they shouldn't. It has a little pillar rising up in the centre of the hole in the screw, and a hole to match in the centre of the bit.

I think someone makes or used to make a hollow point bullet with a central pillar, though possibly a round hole. The theory was that it would admit the fluids that produce expansion, but not the fibrous matter which can prevent it.

I wouldn't sharpen anything up though, or at least not freehand. If the centre of mass of the bullet is even a thousandth of an inch off-center, it is travelling in a spiral down the bore. When the effect of the rifling disappears, it will obey Newton's Laws by heading off in a straight line, pointing wherever the spiral last did. If the situation isn't worsened by an induced wobble you can compose a formula to predict the bullet's deviation. With that thousandth and a 10in. twist you get about a 4½in. group at a hundred yards, in addition to all the other sources of inaccuracy rifle accuracy endures. With the different requirements and slower twist of a pistol it may be acceptable, but eccentricity of mass is still something to beware of.

I would also look very closely at the accuracy of machining in that screwdriver or bit. All they guarantee it for is being accurate enough to drive screws with. You would provoke howls of derisive laughter by complaining that the shaft of the thing was wobbling a few thousandths off-center as you did so.

[NavyVet1959]

I'm sure that is right about the standard Torx bit, but there is also a special Torx tamperproof or security bit to stop people unscrewing things they shouldn't. It has a little pillar rising up in the centre of the hole in the screw, and a hole to match in the centre of the bit.

I think someone makes or used to make a hollow point bullet with a central pillar, though possibly a round hole. The theory was that it would admit the fluids that produce expansion, but not the fibrous matter which can prevent it.

The Federal Hydra-Shok is that way. I seem to remember the rationale was that it left a heavier core penetrator for going through bones.

[NavyVet1959]

A Torx bit might work and make a decent HP. I think if you sharpen it in a way for easier penetration it would be helpful, you might/could heat it up with a benzo torch to help.

There's also the Tri-Wing design that might prove interesting:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Screw_Head_-_Tri-wing.svg/40px-Screw_Head_-_Tri-wing.svg.png

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think the effect of that pillar on the weight of the bullet would be negligible, but reducing the tendency to be tail-heavy just might help accuracy a little.

[NavyVet1959]

I think the effect of that pillar on the weight of the bullet would be negligible, but reducing the tendency to be tail-heavy just might help accuracy a little.

Using this sort of method for making a "hollow point" should not have much (if any) effect on the tail-heaviness of a bullet since you are just moving lead sideways instead of removing lead like you might with a drill.

I think that all of my Torx drivers are actual screwdrivers and not bits, so I can't experiment with that, but if I stumble across a cheap Torx bit, I might try sharpening it and giving it a try.

[NavyVet1959]

One thing that I did notice is that if you try the "phillips hollow point" on a powdercoated bullet, the powder on the nose surface chips and flakes off. Not really surprising though.

The square drive (i.e. "Roberston") bits might also work.

[harley45]

The screwdriver bit idea is interesting, I'd never considered it. Off to the shop!

[NavyVet1959]

The screwdriver bit idea is interesting, I'd never considered it. Off to the shop!

Post your results...

[dubber123]

As heavy as the "walls" outward from your screwdriver HP's are, you might want to cast REALLY soft if you expect any expansion. Do yourself a favor and pre-plug them with Paraffin, old boolit lube or silicone. Helps pistol boolit expansion a bunch.

[NavyVet1959]

The largest Phillips bit did not work well. It was too flat on the bottom and deformed the sides of the noise of the bullet.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

One thing that I did notice is that if you try the "phillips hollow point" on a powdercoated bullet, the powder on the nose surface chips and flakes off. Not really surprising though.

The square drive (i.e. "Roberston") bits might also work.

Ah, now that might provide useful information. I think you would find that the coating chips off on the ogive, but with moderate penetration not on the cylindrical surface of the bullet. That makes distortion of the bullet less of a worry, although I still think it ought to be held in some form of close-fitting cylindrical holder.

The majority of bench drills nowadays have the chuck attached by two tapers, like this, even if one is fixed so tightly that you need never know about it::

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2MT-JT33-Tang-End-Drill-Chuck-Arbor-/330528163536?hash=item4cf50386d0

This one is on eBay UK, and not worth paying the international postage, but there will be plenty more in the US. This one has a tang to stop it from turning, and this is the kind for which you will find a slot through the non-rotating quill and the rotating spindle inside it, to drive out tapered tools. There is another type you just might find, which instead of the tang has a threaded hole. In this case a drawbar will run all the way to the top of the spindle, where you have to ease off a nut or bolt-head and loosen the taper by hitting the drawbar with a mallet.

[Boolseye]

Hey to the OP, I bought one of those Forster tools when I was starting.
Works fine, as you can see from Larry Gibson's post. As long as the alloy is soft enough they will mushroom out–especially if you countersink them like that .45 in the Gibson post. I never did that, and still got some good expansion. Have fun.
Have a couple HP molds now.

[kentuckyshooter]

Just want to say thanks for all the info. My end up hunting down one of the fosters tools. I had never concidered punching a hollow point into a boolit. This would retain the original weight and give u the mod i was looking for. Ill for shure have to try it. Just a little info on my normal alloy. Its coww mixed 50/50 with range scrap. Most of the range scpap is jacketed with a some cast thrown in. It give me good shootin boolits but idk what the bhn would be. Any one care to guess if this might be ok for the hollow pointed and home made flat nose rounds i intend to make and try?

[NavyVet1959]

You could also start out with the Fosters hollowpointing tool to drill a 1/16" hollowpoint in the bullet and use that as a guide for the screwdriver bit so that it would be centered and maybe less deformed.

[dubber123]

Just want to say thanks for all the info. My end up hunting down one of the fosters tools. I had never concidered punching a hollow point into a boolit. This would retain the original weight and give u the mod i was looking for. Ill for shure have to try it. Just a little info on my normal alloy. Its coww mixed 50/50 with range scrap. Most of the range scpap is jacketed with a some cast thrown in. It give me good shootin boolits but idk what the bhn would be. Any one care to guess if this might be ok for the hollow pointed and home made flat nose rounds i intend to make and try?

I have only used range scrap a few times, but in both instances it wasn't all that far off from WW's. If you are making HP's for pistol boolits, my guess would be they may be on the hard side to get reliable expansion. It would work great for anything else.

[Boolseye]

Shooter,
that will be too hard, most likely. Best expansion has at least 50% pure lead, in my experience. The BHN has to be down around 6-7. That's for a bullet going 900 fps or more. YMMV.

[dudel]

The largest Phillips bit did not work well. It was too flat on the bottom and deformed the sides of the noise of the bullet.

NV, you got me thinking now. How about a cheap set of allen keys? sharpen one end to a point, cut off an inch of the key, and set it in a block to control the depth. Then use a vice/press to push the key into the boolit. That would give you a consistent depth, and the allen keys would give cheap material with which to make different diameters.

I've hollow pointed .45 Boolits with a 60 degree countersink before. Gave a wide hollow point which reminded me of the "Flying Ashtrays". I made a quick jig from wood. Drilled a set of through holes that closely matched the boolit size, then partially slit the board through the holes. I'd align the gig against a stop on the drip press, load the Boolits, then push on the slit side of the wood which would clamp the Boolits in place for drilling. The wood did not deform the Boolits.

[NavyVet1959]

NV, you got me thinking now. How about a cheap set of allen keys? sharpen one end to a point, cut off an inch of the key, and set it in a block to control the depth. Then use a vice/press to push the key into the boolit. That would give you a consistent depth, and the allen keys would give cheap material with which to make different diameters.

I've hollow pointed .45 Boolits with a 60 degree countersink before. Gave a wide hollow point which reminded me of the "Flying Ashtrays". I made a quick jig from wood. Drilled a set of through holes that closely matched the boolit size, then partially slit the board through the holes. I'd align the gig against a stop on the drip press, load the Boolits, then push on the slit side of the wood which would clamp the Boolits in place for drilling. The wood did not deform the Boolits.

Looking on the Harbor Freight site, I see that a 10 piece set (1/16", 5/64", 3/32", 1/8"., 5/32", 3/16", 7/32", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8") of allen wrenches (aka "hex key set") is $1.99. That's pretty cheap, so it might be worth a bit of experimentation. Cut off the 90 degree curve part of it and you have a longer and shorter piece from each wrench that you can use for experimentation. Put the piece in your drill press and while it is spinning, use a file to sharpen the exposed tip to whatever angle you think would be appropriate. You could even take a dremel type tool or triangular file and cut a groove on each face to give it more of the star instead of hex shape.
http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-hex-key-set.html

They also have a metric set for the same price if those sizes (1.5mm, 2mm, 2.5mm, 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, 5.5mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm) work better for your particular bullets.

Here's how the various sizes (SAE and Metric) work out ordered by size and the decimal inch equivalent.



SAE

Metric




1.5 = 0.05906



1/16 = 0.0625




5/64 = 0.078125





2 = 0.07874



3/32 = 0.09375





2.5 = 0.0984252




3 = 0.11811



1/8 = 0.125




5/32 = 0.15625





4 = 0.157480315



3/16 = 0.1875





5 = 0.1968504




5.5 = 0.2165354331



7/32 = 0.21875





6 = 0.2362205



1/4 = 0.25





8 = 0.31496063



5/32 = 0.3125




3/8 = 0.375





10 = 0.3937008