Cast boolit newspaper test; 30-30 & 308

[Huntsman]

So today I set out to the range to carry out some long awaited ballistic tests with my 30-30 & 308. Powder used was IMR 3031 and BLC-2 (only for 30-30 w/Lee cast).
I used Ackland Granger catalogs and soaked for two nights. The bullets never made it passed catalog #2 but the 200gr 308 was pushing it ;)
Moulds were Lee 170gr GC and NOE 165 GC for 30-30 and Lee 200gr RN GC for 308 Win (boolit weights came exact +/- .2grs with gas check). Alloy was a modified Lyman #2 which came to 13 BHN, Lube was L.L.A. thinned with mineral spirits.
Distance was 100yds.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i375/Jamie_MG/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_102219_zpsxc3uqpkq.jpg (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/Jamie_MG/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_102219_zpsxc3uqpkq.jpg.html)


I started the shoosting off with the 308 (Win 88). The first boolit I shot looked a little messy and I actually figured it would'nt have expanded at all but when I saw that it did I was happy but much much happier with the 2nd shot. This one formed a beautiful mushroom :rockOn:
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i375/Jamie_MG/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_101815_zpshjzcaa7y.jpg (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/Jamie_MG/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_101815_zpshjzcaa7y.jpg.html)
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i375/Jamie_MG/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_101838_zpsemxrmbxx.jpg (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/Jamie_MG/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_101838_zpsemxrmbxx.jpg.html)
And then this beauty;
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i375/Jamie_MG/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_102419_zps7xd6sxhn.jpg (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/Jamie_MG/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_102419_zps7xd6sxhn.jpg.html)
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i375/Jamie_MG/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_102428_zpsunfy00ke.jpg (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/Jamie_MG/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_102428_zpsunfy00ke.jpg.html)
This was the exact same alloy/boolit I used for last years cow moose ;)

Now for the 30-30. This was my first step into the cast boolit rifle ctg world. I went with the Lee 170gr mould but will more than likely retire this mould since I just recently purchased the NOE mould off the EE here.
So here is the first shot with the 30-30 Lee mould-velocity is approx 2000fps;
Expansion was as expected;
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i375/Jamie_MG/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_103646_zpsb9kq88lf.jpg (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/Jamie_MG/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_103646_zpsb9kq88lf.jpg.html)

And now the NOE 165gr
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i375/Jamie_MG/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_104420_zpsyucfklci.jpg (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/Jamie_MG/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_104420_zpsyucfklci.jpg.html)
Much better I think.
And all 3 that I shot. The NOE closest to loaded cartridge was max load of 28.5grs IMR 3031 and the other was 25grs same powder
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i375/Jamie_MG/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_111419_zpswcizlhxl.jpg (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/Jamie_MG/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151008_111419_zpswcizlhxl.jpg.html)



Should be good for deer this fall me thinks :d

[white eagle]

Me thinks so to
nice to be sure of your chosen alloy
good job

[jmort]

Great stuff. Love to see bullets post impact with wet paper.

[Bzcraig]

Looks like a winner to me!

[OnHoPr]

First of all, the win 88 in 308 is decent deer medicine. One of those in 284 would be very interesting. How fast were you pushing the Lee 200 gr to have it mushroom all the way to the end of the shank? Frags must of gone somewhere, especially in a animal. What is the engraved ring on the outside of the 308 brass near the top of the web? Strange how the Lee and the NOE of similar weights with the NOE 165 having just a slightly bigger metplat had so much more mushrooming than the nose shearing of the Lee 170. Interesting documentation of how the metplat can/may be so differentiating with speed and alloy make ups along with range. With pushing a Lee 180 gr just above 2000 fps @ 50 yds in magazine catalogs and phone books (dry) I get about half the shank left and the rest mushroom and/or shear like the 200 gr shown. @ 270 yds in a bocks of moist sand I get a picture mushroom with all shank intact.

[Huntsman]

OnHoPr;
The 88 is a nice rifle :D This was my Dads and I love it! So to answer a few questions. The ring around the 308 brass looks like brass failure, I noticed when I took the pic and pulled the boolit, inside there was also a ring so that would've been case head separation right there had I fired it. That won't happen again ;)
So the Lee 170's were cast last summer (2014) and the NOE's 2 days ago (Wed Oct 7th). So age hardness. They scored 12.5 BHN and the NOE's 13 BHN. Had I had more I would've taken a 2nd shot since the 1st 308 shot looked like **** and the 2nd was pure excellence.
I plan on doing this again once I collect some more paper materiel.

[ammohead]

Huntsman,

It could be that your sizing die is setting your shoulder back too far causing excess headspace. This will cause incipient case head separation way too soon. Compare the shoulder length between fired brass and sized brass and adjust your die.

[Huntsman]

I'll check it out, Thanks ammohead!

But I will point out that I did a check of all my brass and that was the only one with the ring. It's headstamp was dated '74. BTW
this is IVI mil brass. And this brass is only twice fired.
It could also have been a piece of debris in the cloth I was using to remove the case lube.
But I am in the process of looking over all my brass and taking your advice ;)
Cheers

[popper]

What is modified #2? Al GC? They stayed ON. What was fps of 308? The RD design really does work.

[quilbilly]

I have done the same into soaked, compressed phone books with the 30/30, 308, and a 32-20. Penetration, expansion, and wound channels were remarkable with 160 gr RNGC with both the 308 and 30/30. At 40 yards and a muzzle velocity of 1550 FPS, the 30/30 got 16-17" of penetration. At 40 yards and the same boolit, the 308 got 20+" of penetration from a muzzle velocity of 1800 FPS. At 25 yards with the 113 gr RFGC at an MV of 1350 FPS, the 32/20 got 14-16" of penetration. My alloy is 60% pure, 40% hard chilled birdshot, and then I add a little tin. The boolits always hold together well. Soon I hope to test the new Lee 358 - 200 gr RNGC from my 357 Maximum carbine at an MV of about 1650 which should be interesting.

[Huntsman]

What is modified #2? Al GC? They stayed ON. What was fps of 308? The RD design really does work.

Hi Popper, when I said a modified #2 alloy was it started off as a Lyman #2 alloy but found it was too hard for my liking. So I added pure lead until I was satisfied. Basically got it to 13 BHN. Not 100% on the velocity as my Chronograph wasn't cooperating.
Cheers

[Gray Fox]

I have the NOE 165 and am concerned how far below the case neck the GC sits in .308. I'd like to use this boolit in a Ruger Scout Rifle as well as a Savage 99c, but am afraid it might lose the GC. Should I not worry about this? GF

[Tar Heel]

Huntsman....what rifle is the 30-30?

[Huntsman]

Huntsman....what rifle is the 30-30?

Win 94

I forgot to mention too that all bullets are sized with Lee sizer .309

Grayfox,
I don't think you'll have any issues with your gas checks. I'm sure more cast boolit shoosters can chime in ;)
I'm also thinking of loading up some 165gr NOE for my .308/88 as well. I'm sure they'll work fine.

[Motor]

Huntsman. Judging by you experience how would you expect these to work:

Lee 30cal.160gr 2R TL with the nose flattened to .180" diameter. The alloy is 12bhn but may age harden some. The velocity should be at least 1800f/s. Oh. Actual boolit weight is 168grs. Thanks,

Motor

[pls1911]

Great stuff. Love to see bullets post impact with wet paper.

Paper is good..... second only to pigs........
The problem is getting pigs to stand in front of a paper backstop!!!

[rosst]

Not trying to rain on your parade here but i don't think wet paper tests reveal anything with .30 cals except lots of good lookn expanded bullets/boolits . . theyre kinda fun and give some kind of comparison but nothing that resembles what will happen with animals. The same boolit that shows much better expansion in paper will be indifferent or no better than another when you get them in the field on game in my experience. I dont bother with that kind of tests anymore . .. for light skinned game ( Deer, Goats ) the biggest meplate you can live with and hollow point if you must in the softest alloy you can shoot in your velocity range is my choice
151227
this is a classic example . . the HP version of this boolit (RCBS 30 . 180) is hands down better with tests in wet newspaper at subsonic and 1600fps but in the field performance is so close as to be equals.
Where you put a well designed hunting boolit and at what velocity is the key. . . . my 2c

[Huntsman]

Huntsman. Judging by you experience how would you expect these to work:

Lee 30cal.160gr 2R TL with the nose flattened to .180" diameter. The alloy is 12bhn but may age harden some. The velocity should be at least 1800f/s. Oh. Actual boolit weight is 168grs. Thanks,

Motor

Hi Motor,
Do you have any pics of said boolit that you can share? With that hardness and ideal velocity that boolit should work well for you but your best bet would be to try it out and see. What do you intend on hunting with it?

Rosst, no worries. No drops of rain on this guy's parade :D.
Not to many people know this but the cloven hooved big game up here in Canada genetically have thicker hides and fur due to the much harsher frigid winters than your thinner skinned game. In fact it gets so cold up here the fish even grow fur coats :)

[Motor]

Not sure about posting photos on here. It looks like your typical flat nose 30-30 boolit. My intended game is PA or WV whitetail deer.

Motor

[Larry Gibson]

Huntsman

Your wet pack tests of your cast bullets for the 30-30 and .308W are very good and quite valid in my experience. I have conducted a lot of such newsprint wet pack test over the years to obtain the best expansion from .30 caliber cast bullets especially when used in those 2 cartridges. I have conducted numerous such tests at 25, 50, 100 and 200 yards. Most of my testing was with the Lyman 311041 of which your Lee bullet is a copy. I used Winchester 170 gr PPs in the 30-30 fired into the same test media for comparative performance of expansion and penetration. My goal was to match the penetration and expansion of the well proven 170 gr PP factory loads as close as possible with the 311041. I have had Oehler chronographs since '74 so I knew the actual velocities also. These were conducted a long time ago so I do not have photo's.

What I found was that by using a suitable alloy and slightly HPing the 311041 and getting a muzzle velocity of 2000 - 2200 fps the expansion and penetration of the 311041 was very comparable to the Winchester PPs out to 200 yards. Around 1500 - 1600 fps velocity is retained by that bullet at 200 yards. Over the years the performance of the 311041 HP's in the field on deer proved excellent and every bit the equal of the 30-30 with factory 170 gr bullets when the velocity is in the 2000 - 2200 fps range regardless of the cartridge used. The 30-30, .308W and .300 Savage all worked the best because rifles with 12" twists were readily available and acceptable hunting accuracy at 200 yards over 1900 fps was easier to maintain than with 10" twist barrels. Still with diligence many cartridges in 10" twists can maintain acceptable hunting accuracy upwards of 1950 - 2050 fps which still puts "in the game".

For my hunting bullets I use an alloy of COWWs + 2% tin and then mixed 50/50 with lead. This gives about a 97 - 1 1/2 - 1 1/2 alloy. I let the bullet AC for at least 10 days before use. Now these are soft bullet and my mould drops them at .3105 so I use a .311 H&I die to seat the Hornady GCs, crimp them and lube the bullets with a quality NRA 50/50 lube. I use a Lyman 311041HP mould that I've shortened the HP stem so the HP is only 3/16" deep. That is quite sufficient to promote excellent expansion and minimal sloughing of the expansion petals. Expansion across 200 yards with such a cast bullet at a velocity of 2100 fps is very similar to the expansion of the Winchester 170 PP bullets in the same test medium. You can easily HP your loaded bullets in a similar fashion with the 1/8" Forster HP tool.

I've done considerable testing of the 311041 in the 30-30 using LeveRevolution powder. In a 20" M94 Carbine 2150 fps is easily obtained with excellent accuracy. Out of my 24" M94 I'm pushing 2300 fps with the same load. Of course any .308W with 22"+ barrel length and a 12" twist can easily reach the same velocities and maintain hunting accuracy.

I'll note that with such a soft alloy barrel fouling builds quickly. While I've not "leaded" the barrels accuracy does deteriorate after 5 - 8 shots. I've found many times with different rifles and different cartridges the best accuracy is with the 1st to 6th, 7th or 8th shot. Good rifles keep those in 2 - 2 1/2 moa at 200 yards. Subsequent shots decrease accuracy to 4 - 5 moa. Thus for hunting I clean the barrel ever 5 - 8 shots which is fine because if I miss that many times it ain't the rifle or loads fault and I might as well go home and clean the rifle anyway......


For zero and practice I cast the bullets out of COWWs and 2% tin and use the same load. I can most often shoot those all day long w/o any fouling buildup or loss of accuracy.

Larry Gibson

151272

[Rally]

Larry,
How much difference is there in your bullet weight from hunting alloy to target alloy? Does your point of impact change with alloy change? I'm considering doing the same thing with a Ranch dog 165 and using the softer alloy with a cup point.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
How much difference is there in your bullet weight from hunting alloy to target alloy? Does your point of impact change with alloy change? I'm considering doing the same thing with a Ranch dog 165 and using the softer alloy with a cup point.

There's only 1 - 2 gr difference in weight and no difference in impact out to 200 yards because that's where velocity drops to 1500 fps +/-. That's my personal max range for hunting cast bullets and regular loads. The XCB cartridge, bullet and rifle may change that with velocity capability with the same bullet upwards of 2500+ fps.

The reason for pretty much the same bullet weight is the extra weight gained by the softer alloy is lost when the bullet is HP'd.

Larry Gibson

[Markbo]

I would love to see your tests repeated with an HP drilled in those same bullets.

[Huntsman]

Thats some good info Larry, Thanks. I might check out that Forster HP tool. I just spoke with my big bro and blind set up he has all the deer traffic are feeding at 25-30 yards. I'll have to chrony my loads to see what exact velocity I'm getting. The Lyman CBH doesn't list any 165gr cast but with a 150gr at max going approx 2181fps and a 170gr going 2095fps with IMR 3031 I'm sure my boolits are in the 2000fps area. But only a chrony will tell true speeds ;)
I'll be hunting next week all week so one more trip to the range is in order.
Thanks again,

Huntsman