200 grain for 9mm, 9mm largo, 38 super, or 9x23?

[preparehandbook]

I was thinking about the old british 38/200 load. This round routinely performed better on flesh than paper.

I carry a Tokarev, in 7.62x25 and am very happy with it's performance with the PPU JHPs.

I have some extra barrels in 9mm bore that can easily be chambered for 9mm largo, 9x23, 38 super.

So if I wanted to load a max weight cast boolit and drive it at moderate speeds, what are my options?

Load a really long nose in a 9x19 case?
Use 9mm largo cases? Or 38 super?

How do I overcome internal case taper?

[Groo]

Groo here
158 or 160 is about the limit in a 38 super.
For the shorter cases lighter/shorter bullets are needed.
To overcome the internal taper you will need a boat tail bullet or a double ended one [like rn on one end and tc on the other with the driving band in the
middle]
Even the long cases are shorter than the 38special and the mag sets the oal limit.

[preparehandbook]

...and the mag sets the oal limit.


The Tokarev mag can swallow about 1.4" OAL

[Outpost75]

I load the Accurate 36-155D bullet in the 9mm and my friend in Italy also uses it in his 9x21.
You can tweak the diameters when ordering a mold to fit your barrel.

150749

The 9x23 would be a good conversion for a TOK and would give you a strong case with a bit more powder capacity.

The 36-178D has a longer nose and is intended for revolver use, but at 1.32" OAL in a 9x23mm case should fit in your magazine, depending upon the front radius of the magazine box to clear the nose of the bullet.

150750

[lar45]

I've thought about loading 180s in the 9mm Largo, but havn't done anything with it yet.
A place to start might be to cut some cases in half and see just how deep you could go on each one. Or get a case in each caliber, then seat bullets deaper and deaper until the case starts to expand. Take that info with your 1.4" length and see how long of a bullet would fit.
Then look to Quickload for a place to start with powder charges.
If you could get 180s to fit, they might be able to go 1100fps @ 30kpsi, or 200's @ 1000fps in the same pressure range

[9.3X62AL]

FWIW, my NEI #169A bullet that duplicates the form and weight of the 38 S&W 200 grain RN is .810" long--has a drive band/lube groove arrangement designed around seating in a 38 S&W casing (.775" vs. the 9mm's .754"), and the nose's ogive form corresponds somewhat to that of an autopistol round nose shape. I don't have access to samples that I could send you, unfortunately--but NEI Handtools' website might have a drawing or even critical dimensions listed. If you have 1.4" of mag space......total of case length plus bullet length is 1.564"......OAL at 1.400" = 0.114" seat depth. Might work!

[OldManMontgomery]

I have loaded 158 grain RNL in a 9x19 case. There were loads given in the Lyman #45 manual (I think) and I tried them.
I have loaded 158 grain RNL in Super .38. Seems to like 2400 powder.

One of the problems is the length of the bullet. This crowds the powder chamber and makes fitting into a magazine (and through the action) more difficult. Typical rifle bullets of 180 or 200 grains have rather long ogives which make the bullet longer than a flat-ended cylinder would be. The shortest possible 200 grain bullet would be flat based (not going for long distance like a rifle, right?) with a slight taper on the bottom to fit into the internal taper of the case. The front end needs be as wide as possible (to save length) without engaging the rifling for easy chambering and unloading; and very flat fronted.

Truthfully, I don't think one can '... get there from here' with 9x19 or Super cases.

I have worked with 147 grain jacketed bullets in the Super .38 and of the opinion one can get some serious velocity from them.

Actually, I wish you well. I'm a heavy bullet adherent, having read a lot of Elmer Keith in my younger days. I like the idea of a big, heavy, as wide as possible, flat meplat bullet at whatever one can achieve safely. Probably easier in a revolver because the bullet can hang out the front of the case and is only limited by the cylinder length.

[JHeath]

Search for Clark's posts on this and other forums about 158s in 9x23 Win. in Tok pistols. He worked his way up to . . . pioneering . . . compressed loads of Power Pistol, while monitoring for extractor groove expansion. That's not 200gr data, but indicates it can safely be worked up. The Tok magazine provides length, and the pistol is . . . I don't want to say indestructible, but Clark couldn't kb Toks with Power Pistol. If you can shoot 200s from a .38 S&W at a COAL of 1.240", you can surely shoot them from pretty much the strongest pistol case ever (9x23Win) in one of the strongest auto pistols ever, at a COAL of 1.360".

[Outpost75]

As FYI, in the .38 S&W, aka Colt New Police, for use in a 1930-vintage Police Positive, NOT the Special, but the Jimmy Cagney model brandished in the 1931 Warner Brothers gangster flick Public Enemy, I load 5.6 grains of Alliant #2400 with the Accurate 36-201D ogival wadcutter, for 700 fps. Does shoot high to the fixed sights, so my preferred load is the 36-155D hollowpointed to 146 grains, with 2.7 grains of Bullseye for 785 fps from a 4" barrel. Gun has 0.005" cylinder gap.

[tazman]

This is the longest and heaviest boolit I have been able to get to work really well in the 9mm luger cartridge.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=1908&osCsid=b3lj07evu1342m928v6kimle06
The hollow point version weighs 147 grains(nominal).
This was designed from the ground up for the 9x19 and works quite well. I have shot it in 3 different 9mm pistols with excellent results. I am running it at about 850-875 fps. If you are looking for a 17 round capacity 38 special, this will fill the bill.

[preparehandbook]

As FYI, in the .38 S&W, aka Colt New Police, for use in a 1930-vintage Police Positive, NOT the Special, but the Jimmy Cagney model brandished in the 1931 Warner Brothers gangster flick Public Enemy, I load 5.6 grains of Alliant #2400 with the Accurate 36-201D ogival wadcutter, for 700 fps. Does shoot high to the fixed sights, so my preferred load is the 36-155D hollowpointed to 146 grains, with 2.7 grains of Bullseye for 785 fps from a 4" barrel. Gun has 0.005" cylinder gap.

700 fps, that's the sort of velocities I was thinking of.

[trapper9260]

I shoot 147gr lyman and have good turn out on it.That is sofar the biggest i shot in 9mm luger.I shoot it in 4 of my 9mm lugers and they are all differnet and do good with that round.

[corbinace]

Not much to the OP but I too have used the 147. Well over 100K rounds in my Glock:Fire: at about 900 fps and I love them. Not cast by me but commercially.

[jmorris]

I have pushed 147's out of 9x19 over 1100 fps making major power factor.

[Artful]

The heaviest loading I know of was for Navy Seal S&W 9mm pistol during Vietnam - this was subsonic loading for Subsonic shooting thru "Hush Puppy" suppressors. As stated in Paulson's book on Suppressor History they resized Sierra .38 170 grn FMJ to .355 and seated them in 9x19 brass.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/hushpuppy_in_seal_museum_2-300x225.jpeg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/hushpuppy_in_seal_museum-300x225.jpeg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/seal_mk_22_with_ammo_and_suppressor_internal_wipe_ kit_below-300x205.jpg
Mark 22 Mod 0 with Mk 3 Suppressor.
Issued Special Mk 144 158-grain green-tipped FMJ rounds were issued with each gun. These superfat 9mm rounds with Super Vel headstamps traveled at subsonic (less than 900fps) speed to not produce a ‘crack’ breaking the sound barrier. The 170 grain load tended to crack the slides at the slide lock notch so were abandoned.

[9.3X62AL]

I have pushed 147's out of 9x19 over 1100 fps making major power factor.

The current law enforcement love affair with the 9mm x 147 grain JHP "Sub-Sonic" loading--which run about 950 FPS from most pistol-length barrels--serves a different agenda than maximizing projected energy downrange. As you allude to, the sub-sonics are about a 15%-20% underload from the caliber's potential capability. The Jello Shooter Cadre touts these loads as The Bestest Ever Birthed, with their 38 Special ballistics and alleged Controlled Expansion Bullet Construction that produces such nice flower petals after perfect penetration......in laboratories. By circuitous palavering, Dr. Fackler and FBI created a refried 38 Special, for a self-loading platform, that can hopefully be easily controlled by the majority of LE shooters while stopping goblins when the shooter hits the target. This "improvement" is a lot more about improving hit rates than improving ballistic performance, but the lab dudes and FBI leave that unsaid. In the real world, the 9mm is a mid-point between the 38 Special and 357 Magnum, and it seems a reckless waste of potential to down-load it. We compound the error by then touting such loadings as Best Ever while carrying them in harm's way. The load's ballistics revolve around suppressor usage in SMGs--it was optimized for this purpose. We are kidding ourselves to allege otherwise. The handgun is already a severe compromise between portability and ballistic projection, one that favors the former factor significantly. In good faith I cannot recommend the use of adulterated loadings in harm's way to others without being truthful about the load's capabilities.

[LIMPINGJ]

Thanks for your observations tazman and 9.3x62AL, it's nice to finally hear someone call a 38 Special load a 38 Special. At least they give you a 19 shot 38 Special.

[tazman]

Thanks for your observations tazman and 9.3x62AL, it's nice to finally hear someone call a 38 Special load a 38 Special. At least they give you a 19 shot 38 Special.

That and the fact that it shoots well in my pistols is why I shoot that boolit. I have no reservations about the 38 special for my uses.

[jmorris]

The load's ballistics revolve around suppressor usage in SMGs--it was optimized for this purpose.

For most suppressed SMG use I use 147's loaded subsonic. The only exception is the MP5 SD, the ported barrel bleeds off too much gas and they won't run right with the powders I use, unless you run lighter bullets (with more powder).

[Certaindeaf]

700 fps, that's the sort of velocities I was thinking of.

IMI makes a standard pressure 158gr 9mm load that does 950fps from a pistol and Freedom Munitions offers a 165gr standard pressure 9mm at about the same velocity I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9CGuEJGLUQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITYYtNfwGSQ

[docmagnum357]

I loaded a bunch of flat base, 1r 9mm 150 grain boolits as an experiment to see if I could get lower recoil, better accuracy from my 9mms. The most accurate 38 special load I ever worked with was 200 grain SWC and 2400 powder. Had a recipe that made major and was not +p. I was looking for the same thing in 9mm...more bearing surface, more weight, better penetration for a "woods gun" and of course it had to feed.
The taper issue is a big deal. With soft lead i believe you can use the Lee factory crimp die and kind of "iron out " any bulge you might get. Not good, but if the alloy is soft it will "slug up" under firing pressure. Mine did. No leading and mild recoil . I only experimented with fast powders. I was looking for low recoil, quick recovery from recoil. It is also nice to shoot a 9 and not have the ear splitting sonic crack. I have read of British loads for suppressed STENs that used 160- 170 grain boolits but I can't remember where and don't remember many details.
9mm cartridge development has indeed gone the wrong way. Faster, lighter bullets make pretty flowers in gelatin but big heavy blunt boolits make gaping bleeding holes all the way through critters and tend to shoot without the snap and crack of the lighter faster loads. I think 9mm will run out of room before the recoil toleration level and recoil recovery level of most folks is reached. There really is something Special about the 38 special. A 38 Super is a much better platform. Probably a bout perfect case size.

[bobthenailer]

I have seen a few published loads for the 38 super & 180 gr jacketed & cast bullets

[reddog81]

Here's a 200 grain bullet I tried shooting recently in a S&W 929. The results were the worst of the day. bullets were tumbling at 15 yards and only 3 of the 8 bullets hit the 6" target. These were seated really long and would only work in a revolver. I was trying out half a dozen different bullets with 3.5 grains Bullseye and figured I try this one out just for giggles. It was a failure. The bullet was seated so it took up less room in the case than a 158 grain bullet would and I used 158 grain data.

I thought I had a picture of the bullet sitting next to the case but couldn't find it. The bullet is just as long as the case is.

[475AR]

I was thinking about the old british 38/200 load. This round routinely performed better on flesh than paper.

I carry a Tokarev, in 7.62x25 and am very happy with it's performance with the PPU JHPs.

I have some extra barrels in 9mm bore that can easily be chambered for 9mm largo, 9x23, 38 super.

So if I wanted to load a max weight cast boolit and drive it at moderate speeds, what are my options?

Load a really long nose in a 9x19 case?
Use 9mm largo cases? Or 38 super?

How do I overcome internal case taper?

I designed a cast bullet for my DI 9mm AR15, it casts @ 180gr with my lead. It was designed to fit and maximize case capacity in the 9mm. It is mold # 35-188DZ Tom @ Accurate Molds cut it. I bet it would work great for what you are wanting to do.212128

[Walkingwolf]

I was thinking about the old british 38/200 load. This round routinely performed better on flesh than paper.

I carry a Tokarev, in 7.62x25 and am very happy with it's performance with the PPU JHPs.

I have some extra barrels in 9mm bore that can easily be chambered for 9mm largo, 9x23, 38 super.

So if I wanted to load a max weight cast boolit and drive it at moderate speeds, what are my options?

Load a really long nose in a 9x19 case?
Use 9mm largo cases? Or 38 super?

How do I overcome internal case taper?

The 38/200 load had a very wide meplat, something that is going to be hard to get with a semi auto. Personally I believe the best possibility to duplicate the 38/200 load is with the 40 S&W using a 200 grain bullet downloaded for suppressor.

Berry's 200 grain flat point.

https://www.berrysmfg.com/pub/products/40-401-200gr-fp-250ct-50400.jpg

ETA I carry my 1911 with a 200 grain RNFP at a mild 800fps. With the wide 45 bullet it matches the performance of the 38/200.

[Harter66]

Just because a 148 WC fits , feeds , and shoots well doesn't necessarily make it a good idea .
212129

This is in a Win case and fed in a FEG HP9 and a P95 DA .

[Petander]

To the right: My neverending 166 grain 9mm subsonic project has been quite ok,I still do get minor leading depending on the gun. Mostly expander thing I suppose.

That's a Lee 158,gives me 166. I keep casting and testing alloys and size,shoots and feeds great.


To the left is a dummy 230 grain 35 Whelen ... It fits in the 9mm chamber,too. But my Quick Load accrobacy isn't good enough for load stunts like that.

218619

[lar45]

I've done a little bit with the 190 Ranch Dog in my Star Super in 9mm Largo and have reached 1000 fps with Bluedot.
I do have a Wolf extra power spring in it.
I tried them powder coated first, but it looks like they work better lubed with Carnauba Blue.
218673

[Outpost75]

These are the primary bullets I am shooting now in the .38 S&W Ruger India Model and also in the 9mm revolvers;

218632218633

[RJM52]

The .38 Super is a straight walled case and is easy to use heavy bullets without case bulging.

I have used 160 grain Hornady FMJ bullets as well as 160 grain LRN. The FMJs could be pushed to 1100 fps in a non-supported chamber barrel and the 160 lead up to 1170...this was my standard IPSC load for 15 years. Have seen loading data from I believe Layne Simpson up to the 170 and 180 grain FMJ bullets.

This was the last of my IPSC ammo..50' offhand..9 rounds...before the eyes went to ****...

218729


Bob

[RJM52]

The 38/200 load had a very wide meplat, something that is going to be hard to get with a semi auto. .com/pub/products/40-401-200gr-fp-250ct-50400.jpg[/img]


The 38/200 had a long tapered bullet...there was no flat meplat....none that I have ever seen that is...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38/200

Bob