Sig P938 9mm "cocked and locked carry" question

[40-82 hiker]

A friend of mine sent me an email this AM stating he had traded for a Sig P938 9mm to use as his carry gun after he takes his class. I sent him back an email congratulating him on his trade, and basically asked him if he thought he would mind carrying a pistol cocked and locked, as I have known a number of people over the years who did not like that idea. I have open carried my Colt NM cocked and locked a number of times in the wilds of Montana (open carry) a number of times and did not give it a second thought.

Anyway, he responded he was NOT going to carry it cocked and locked, which left me greatly confused (not sure if it is my confusion or his). So, here are my questions since I neither own that particular pistol, nor do I have a carry permit.

These questions are for my benefit. My friend will have to figure out what he wants to do as I am not in any position to advise him. Just made me really curious about this Sig...

1) Can a chambered Sig P938 be safely carried with the hammer down?

2) If the answer to question number 1 is "yes", does it make any sense to have to thumb a hammer on a carry gun? It seems to me a person might as well carry a SA revolver (though size is certainly problematic).

3) Though ignorant of how these Sigs are used in the field, I thought the idea of any 1911 style SA semi auto was to be able to carry cocked and locked so an immediate shot can be taken with nothing more than the flick of the safety. So, why would anyone want to carry a SA semi auto without it being cocked and locked? Or, am I not understanding of this pistol?

Thanks for answers to what may amount to ignorant questions. Yes, guilty...

[Jupiter7]

Same as a 1911, sans grip safety. Has firing pin safety like an 80 series colt so it won't fire if dropped with hammer back. I wouldn't dare carry a pistol that had to be chambered before carrying, don't know why anyone would. If he's thinking about chambering a round and dropping the hammer on a live round, he's in for a world of hurt. The gun is made to be carried cocked and locked.

[40-82 hiker]

Same as a 1911, sans grip safety. Has firing pin safety like an 80 series colt so it won't fire if dropped with hammer back. I wouldn't dare carry a pistol that had to be chambered before carrying, don't know why anyone would. If he's thinking about chambering a round and dropping the hammer on a live round, he's in for a world of hurt. The gun is made to be carried cocked and locked.

I got my 1911 out this evening after posting, and went through a drill (empty) a number of times trying to see how I would lower the hammer safely. Gave me the willies thinking about having to do that regularly.

Thanks.

[kentuckyshooter]

Its not to dificult to decock on a loaded chamber. Keep it pointed in a safe direction, keep a firm grasp on the hammer and dont eat a stick of butter with ur bare hands befor attempting. Seriously though. It can be done safely with pratice.

[kentuckyshooter]

Had anouther thought. An alternitive to cocked and locked would be the israily cary. Thatr a full mag and empty chamber. U just rack the slide when u draw the wepon. It can be a quick as any outher method of cary with pratice just a little dificult to do with 1 hand. Just something to think about.

[Jupiter7]

Its not to dificult to decock on a loaded chamber. Keep it pointed in a safe direction, keep a firm grasp on the hammer and dont eat a stick of butter with ur bare hands befor attempting. Seriously though. It can be done safely with pratice.

NO, it can't be. It is only safe until it isn't, only takes ones time to let the hammer fall and you have a ND. Not to mention that you'd have to carry with the safety off/on and either manually pull hammer and disengage safety or carry a chambered single action with the safety off, no thanks.

[Jupiter7]

Had anouther thought. An alternitive to cocked and locked would be the israily cary. Thatr a full mag and empty chamber. U just rack the slide when u draw the wepon. It can be a quick as any outher method of cary with pratice just a little dificult to do with 1 hand. Just something to think about.

See how fast it really is when you need the gun, my guess is it feels like years...
god forbid you forget.

[kentuckyshooter]

Personaly i see ur point and agree with u. Im just saying it can be done. I didnt say it was always a good idea. For the ND posibility thatr why i stated point it in a safe direction. The moment u get complacent is when something bad happens. I will say i keep a SA auto for home defence. I leave it decocked, safety of with a round in the chamber. The big difrence is that i dont cary it that way. It stays put up in a condition that alows me to bring it into service with 1 hand and 1 step removed from ready to fire. If i was to cary it it would be cocked and locked.

[GhostHawk]

I don't carry outside my house, have yet to feel the need although it looks like things are headed that way.

In the bedroom my my shotgun is left with 4 in the magazine, chamber emty, action open. In half a second I can slam that chamber closed and fire. But it can not possibly fire until I do so.

My pistols I prefer to leave with a full magazine, slide locked back. Chamber empty, can not possibly fire without pulling the slide back and releasing it first.

I like it because removing the magazine renders it safe. It can be brought into action very quickly.

To me it is the best compromise between ready to fire and safe to carry and handle.

When you carry cocked and locked you are relying on a mechanical device, which can fail when you least expect it.

[Jupiter7]

I don't carry outside my house, have yet to feel the need although it looks like things are headed that way.

In the bedroom my my shotgun is left with 4 in the magazine, chamber emty, action open. In half a second I can slam that chamber closed and fire. But it can not possibly fire until I do so.

My pistols I prefer to leave with a full magazine, slide locked back. Chamber empty, can not possibly fire without pulling the slide back and releasing it first.

I like it because removing the magazine renders it safe. It can be brought into action very quickly.

To me it is the best compromise between ready to fire and safe to carry and handle.

When you carry cocked and locked you are relying on a mechanical device, which can fail when you least expect it.

Actually 2 in a standard 1911, grip and thumb. In that same vain, all guns are mechanical devices. I "rely" on one daily. I'd bet spring failure in magazines is far more prevalent than thumb safety failure or grip safety failure, could just as easily have a failure to feed that first round from the mag, I'd rather have one in the chamber and take feeding out of that equation. 1911 has been in use over 100yrs now, more than enough time to figure out the bugs. Very simple, either cocked and locked or hammer down, chamber empty.

[9.3X62AL]

Actually 2 in a standard 1911, grip and thumb. In that same vain, all guns are mechanical devices. I "rely" on one daily. I'd bet spring failure in magazines is far more prevalent than thumb safety failure or grip safety failure, could just as easily have a failure to feed that first round from the mag, I'd rather have one in the chamber and take feeding out of that equation. 1911 has been in use over 100yrs now, more than enough time to figure out the bugs. Very simple, either cocked and locked or hammer down, chamber empty.

That last sentence sums it up from my point of view.

[gray wolf]

So, why would anyone want to carry a SA semi auto without it being cocked and locked? Or, am I not understanding of this pistol?

Simple answer:
They do not understand the mechanics of the pistol. Or they are just plain scared or uncomfortable because of ignorance about the pistol.
Yes you have three safeties, thumb safety --- grip safety -- and your trigger finger.

The thumb safety blocks the sear AND the hammer on a 1911It ain't going to go off unless you have a catastrophic failure, or you screw up.Also many folks have a misguided or preconceived idea of what can happen on the street, walking to your car, shopping in a store,
or better yet just being part of the world we live in.

Yes, yes, I know this may not apply to someone who carries on there farm or other circumstances that do not involve being in contact with many
people.

Fact is: we do not rise to the occasion, we revert back to the level of training we have mastered and many, many people have not mastered gun handling in a self defense ballistic environment.

Many situations that go south, do it very quickly, many self defense situations happen within a cars length in distance.
Some at 2 to 3 yards and many at contact distance.

What happens if you get a gun pulled on you at arms distance away ? action is always faster than reaction. Forget a Knife, hopefully we have all been introduced to the Tulla drill ( 21 foot rule )
Try to pull your gun against a gun all ready in play ? now you have two guns in the game, what do we hope for then ? a tie ?
That sure wont improve the situation.

The other gun needs to be controlled before you show and use your own gun. So unless you have three hands your now left with one to draw and rack a slide, ain't gonna happen in the 1 to 1.5 seconds that is needed to deliver a combat accurate shot while clearing cover garments.

Combat accurate;
a shot that significantly effect the targets ability to present a lethal threat.

Things that are not practiced under stress cannot be replicated under stress.

How many folks practice drawing from a holster ? how many can't shoot from a holster while shooting none rapid fire at there local indoor shooting range ?

Because you carry a gun does not mean you know how to use a gun.
People spend big dollars to fly some place, pay for a hotel, buy all kinds of ammo and take a pistol shooting class.
They come home and cannot practice what they have been shown, and practice they must, not till they get it right, but until they don't get it wrong.

Being shown how to do something, and doing it once or twice does not commit it to memory or Q in muscle memory.
It just does not work that way, pure and simple.
We revert back to the level of training we have mastered. Not what we have been shown or done a few times.

How many people have you seen actually practicing coming out of a holster, on or at a shooting range ?
I have seen none in 4 years at my clubs outdoor range--NONE.

Stand at 7 or 10 yards take aim at the paper bulls eye target ( 2 to 3 seconds ) shoot, put the gun down and do it again making the same mistakes over and over again. reverting back to what is comfortable or what they assume or think they have mastered.
The people that do show up with a holster keep it on the shooting bench, or it's the wrong holster, or its a holster that looks like a gym sock with belt loops. Speaking of belts, most will hold up there pants but do nothing to support a firearm.

Sorry for the rant-- but the question about carrying on an empty chamber is absolutely a bad idea.
Uncomfortable? unsure ? get a different gun.

Chamber full ? chamber empty ? is the least of the worry for most people.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

150690
I have my P938 in my pocket right now just love that little gun cocked and locked is the only way i would carry it
just like my 1911 on the left

[gray wolf]

LUCKYDAWG13

I like the holster on the left, can you give me any info on it ?

[LUCKYDAWG13]

LUCKYDAWG13

I like the holster on the left, can you give me any info on it ?
here you go http://www.alabamaholster.com/product-category/pocket-holsters/
other left http://www.epsaddlery.com/pc-226-11-summer-cruiser.aspx

[Jupiter7]

here you go http://www.alabamaholster.com/product-category/pocket-holsters/
other left http://www.epsaddlery.com/pc-226-11-summer-cruiser.aspx

Which are copies of the original Milt Sparks Summer Special.

[9.3X62AL]

Full agreement with every word written by Gray Wolf. The far more practical option for carrying the 1911A1-pattern pistol is Condition 1 aka loaded/cocked/locked. Condition 4 aka chamber empty/hammer down/safety off is an option derived for the untrained, casually familiar, or less motivated carrier. In a lot of situations, this "William Tell" pistol activation regimen will get you killed, as Gray Wolf succinctly explained. If someone is seriously worried about Condition 1, lose the 1911 and get yourself a Glock. Or a double-action revolver, though trigger-cocking learning curve is about as taxing as learning and adopting Condition 1 sequencing.

Aw, get the Glock. They come in all shapes, sizes, and even colors now. The things work. I hated the ugly plasticating poserpistols at first, but grew to love the things after seeing how reliable, tough, and simple their use, care, and upkeep were. They do a lot of things really well, though glamour is lacking. She ain't much to look at, but she can cook-clean--and care for her man like few others.

[Petrol & Powder]

Which are copies of the original Milt Sparks Summer Special.

You beat me to it!

Yep, Milt Sparks SS

[gray wolf]

Thank you for the info, and Yes I like the S S milt sparks holster.

MY TWO PROBLEMS ARE; because of my wrist I need a holster with no rake ( NO CANT FORWARD)
also I just do not have the money for a holster and very few things left I can sell.
But I do like it for my 1911 5"

[Petrol & Powder]

......................

Aw, get the Glock. They come in all shapes, sizes, and even colors now. The things work. I hated the ugly plasticating poserpistols at first, but grew to love the things after seeing how reliable, tough, and simple their use, care, and upkeep were. They do a lot of things really well, though glamour is lacking. She ain't much to look at, but she can cook-clean--and care for her man like few others.

Pretty much mirrors my journey concerning Glocks.
Indifferent to them for years but grew to admire the positive attributes. Glocks work and that's important.


Did my time with 1911 pistols and was proficient with the concept. Personally, I came to the conclusion that the 1911 was an excellent design but no longer the best available design. That's is not a slam on John Browning just my opinion that the world changes. Nor is it an endorsement of the Glock (although as a combat pistol they have a LOT going for them).

I too agree with every thing Gray Wolf wrote. If carrying a 1911 style pistol for self defense, Condition 1 is the only practical mode in which the gun can be effectively deployed. If you are not comfortable/proficient/willing to carry a 1911 style pistol in Condition 1, SWITCH to another platform.

[40-82 hiker]

Thanks for all who posted on this. I actually went shooting with my friend yesterday and he is understanding of the situation. I still do not understand why he said he did not want to carry cocked and locked, but that does not seem to be an issue now after a number of discussions with him. I personally would never advocate an empty chamber, nor a hammer down on a loaded chamber. These situations I believe to be extremely problematic as to safety. Letting the hammer down on a round is scary at best. Like one respondent said, it's safe until it is not.

I really like my 1911, and my other is a Colt Trooper MK III that some may be familiar with via posts I have made in the past. I really like to shoot them both, but the 1911 NM is probably my favorite.

[preparehandbook]

Not two minutes ago I posted a similar thread.

I grew up carrying mostly 1911s, mostly.

I now carry a M57A, which allows all modes, but condition 2 is not drop safe (all others are)

I carry condition 3.

Here are some reasons:



I am frequently in the presence of children.
I spent most of 30 carry years trained to carry condition 2 and 3 (Blame my employer) and I am very fast/safe at it. My hammer is back before the gun is even 25% of the way to target.
I have double jointed thumbs, don't discount this advantage.
If I lose control of my gun they have to ready it before use, during which time I will not remain idle.
I tried switching to condition 1 later in life and I never got smooth or safe with it. My grip came out off, I brushed the safety off while reholstering, I occasionally forgot to disengage the safety. I just couldn't untrain all that muscle memory.
I have on many occasions had to carry a different gun, with little time to train, only for a short time. These included: HK P9s, P38, Lahti L-35, HP35, Colt Mustang, Beretta 92, Makarov. Learning the safety placement, drop safety, etc is a pain, but simply racking the slide brings all of those different autos into ready condition.


Just my 2 cents.

[canyon-ghost]

Now that you all have had your say, here's mine. I have a P938 on my side right now, been out washing the pickup. I've bumped it into tthe doorframe and dropped the safety once, in the prescence of children, nothing happened. I use the Sig-Tac retention holster that comes with them. It covers the trigger. Yes, it's locked and cocked 24/7 or it's a nice looking paper weight. It's a Sig, it's good, reliably good. Have been carrying it all the time since last year. I love it. Train your damn finger to stay off that light trigger, train to drop the safety as you push outward from presentation (as per GunSite). Train and get CCW down right, and keep training. It's not the pistol, it's you.

My concealment holster is a Blackhawk tuckable, for making it disappear all day.

Good Luck,
Ron