First time powder coating

[thumbs]

Once more I have a lot to learn. Anyway casted a bunch of .358 Boolites today. I was using the Lee 6 cavity mold for the first time. This is the tumble lube mold. You can knock em out with that thing. I was hoping I wouldn't have to size them and checked a few pretty much .358.
Now the question. What are you guys using to put the powder coated boolites on while they are in the oven? I used aluminum foil and the bottoms stuck to the foil. Might be gullible but I heard there was a thing called non stick aluminum foil. Is that true?
Since the boolites stuck to the foil I couldn't get the bottoms clean on some. There is a bit of foil on the bottom. Is this a problem when shooting them?

thanks for the help

[gunauthor]

Yup, there is a non-stick aluminum foil (at least one side is). My wife bought some for me, so it must not be too uncommon...... I've never shot any rounds with aluminum stuck to the bottom, but maybe you've discovered a new type of gas check (or not).

[thumbs]

Thanks. I'll have to check it out tomorrow. I guess I pc'd about 50 just to get the idea. I loaded a few without the foil on the ends. I was able to peal most of them clean but some were pretty stubborn I wouldn't think it would be a problem but ya never know.

thanks

[bangerjim]

Be sure and real ALL the PC stickies. I know it is a lot but it is well worth your time. Most iif not all of your questions will be answered there. Always use NSAF. Dull side up. Mine litteraly fall off and I have used the same piece of foil for well over a thousand BBDT boolits to date!

Believe me...you have NOT discovered a new GC!!!!!! All of us in the past have had foil stuck to the bottoms. Just leave it there and don't worry bout it.

[fredj338]

I use these, they work perfectly. The wire is very fine & the bullets stick a bit, but just tap the basket on the bench or floor, they all pop off. No foil for me. My conv oven will take 4 of the 6x9, 300-450 bullets depending on bullet size.
http://www.amazon.com/Honey-Can-Do-KCH-02155-Drawer-Organizer-Silver/dp/B007B8RMAA/ref=sr_1_32?ie=UTF8&qid=1444097382&sr=8-32&keywords=wire+mesh+drawer+organizer

[NavyVet1959]

Beer can aluminum. You can reuse it a lot and I have a never ending supply since I drink beer while casting, reloading, smelting, powder coating, etc


I also do it while posting, so that might explain some of my posts. :)

[thumbs]

I use these, they work perfectly. The wire us very fine & the bullets stick a bit, but just tap the basket on the bench or floor, they all pop off. No foil for me. My conv oven will take 4 of the 6x9, 300-450 bullets depending on bullet size.
http://www.amazon.com/Honey-Can-Do-KCH-02155-Drawer-Organizer-Silver/dp/B007B8RMAA/ref=sr_1_32?ie=UTF8&qid=1444097382&sr=8-32&keywords=wire+mesh+drawer+organizer

I checked it out but didn't see the 6x9. I have a small oven in the shop. The tray is about 8.75X10. Where did you get the 6x9?

Im gonna run down the nsaf tomorrow and see what happens. The stuff I am using now is kind of a pain.

[guncheese]

regular old parchment paper (used for baking) works perfectly and i use the same sheet many many times. did i say many many?
i meant many many many many times

[thumbs]

Ok let me ask you guys this question. I only did one group of bullets so I know nothing of what I speak. I put all the bullets on the base upright and put them in the oven. I have read and seen people just dump them on a screen and put them in the oven. I would think where they touch would leave a bare spot. How do you guys do it. Dumping them onto the pan or screen is a bit faster but is it less effective?

[NavyVet1959]

regular old parchment paper (used for baking) works perfectly and i use the same sheet many many times. did i say many many?
i meant many many many many times

Actually, copier pallet also works and leaves a very dehydrated paper patch on the base of the bullet. :). It's only single use, but since of us have a never ending supply due to printouts or junk mail.

[NavyVet1959]

Ok let me ask you guys this question. I only did one group of bullets so I know nothing of what I speak. I put all the bullets on the base upright and put them in the oven. I have read and seen people just dump them on a screen and put them in the oven. I would think where they touch would leave a bare spot. How do you guys do it. Dumping them onto the pan or screen is a bit faster but is it less effective?

Supposedly, they are about the same. I'm probably not a good enough marksman with my old eyes to notice a difference. :)

[VHoward]

http://www.amazon.com/Artisan-Non-Stick-Silicone-Baking-Mat/dp/B00629K4YK/ref=sr_1_1?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1444103320&sr=1-1&keywords=silicone+baking+mat
I use these. The bullets just fall off and they are holding up well after many uses.

[thumbs]

Ok I am using the Lee tumble lube 6 cavity mold. I only loaded about 20 or them. I noticed in my revolver I have to stay very close or even under the min cartridge length. Is this a problem? I think the mocl is 1.610. Actually with the pc bullets I have to go a little under the goal. Again any problem?
Now has anyone found the need to resize the bullets after powder coating? The bullets are .358 before coating.

[Motor]

Yes. Typically you would size them after powder coating. But as cast boolit shooters we all know that boolit fit is key. So you should actually be making your boolits a specific diameter to start with and if needed be sizing them.

I'm kinda surprised that your ammo is actually fitting in the cylinder bores of your revolver since you didn't size the boolits after PC and you say they are .358" before PC.

This hobby has endless possibilities for "ways" to do things. You can not summarize it in a single paragraph. Just look at the volume of information on this forum alone. There's really very few "rules" etched in stone. The rest is up to you.

Motor

[twc1964]

You really should get a cheap lee push thru sizer. The .358 boolit can grow by several thousandths after pc, depending how thick you are putting it on em. At least when you size em you will know all of em are the same. Oh, if you get a lee sizer, run a pc'd boolit thru it and measure diameter. Lee has a habit of making them a bit smaller than what the label says. A wood dowel and a strip of 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper and oil will do the trick.ymmv

[thumbs]

Yes before pc they run about .358. After pc as large as .364. No they don't fit unless I make the oal shorter than min maybe .003 or about under. I may try the sizer and Johnsons past wax. I also noticed some shaving when seating the bullet. Plus the oal had to be smaller to chamber some.

Just to make sure I need the Lee .358 size kit for my .357 right?

[bangerjim]

I ONLY use the shake-n-dump with 223's. All others are shake-n-pick for good smooth coats. I cannot stand lay marks. With 223's I do so many that if I get 15% reject, I do not care. But anything else, I want good smooth coats.....as close to ESPC (MY standard) as I can get.

For 30's I ESPC in NSAF/fender washers. They don't fall over at all.

Dump if you want, but it does not ever meet my high quality standards.

banger

[thumbs]

I just checked some store bought bullets that shoot great in my Security Six. They are sized to .358. I checked them and they are at .358 so I think I will order the .358 Lee lube sizer kit. There is just to much variance in the castings. That along with the fact they are a little out of round. The sizer should take care it it. (I hope) LOL

[fredj338]

I checked it out but didn't see the 6x9. I have a small oven in the shop. The tray is about 8.75X10. Where did you get the 6x9?

Im gonna run down the nsaf tomorrow and see what happens. The stuff I am using now is kind of a pain.
Here, 6x9. You can hunt around the internet for a better price I am sure. Make sure you pull of the little rubber pads on the bottom before sticking them into a 400deg oven.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P9CJXM?gwSec=1&redirect=true&ref_=s9_simh_gw_p201_d0_i2

[Markbo]

Beer can aluminum. You can reuse it a lot and I have a never ending supply since I drink beer while casting, reloading, smelting, powder coating, etc


I also do it while posting, so that might explain some of my posts. :)

Ah ha!!! ;)

Serious question. Why doesnt parchment paper burn in the oven? Its paper...

[bangerjim]

There is paper.....and then there is PAPER. Parchment is made for baking at higher temps.....kitchen stuff, you know.

[thumbs]

Here, 6x9. You can hunt around the internet for a better price I am sure. Make sure you pull of the little rubber pads on the bottom before sticking them into a 400deg oven.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P9CJXM?gwSec=1&redirect=true&ref_=s9_simh_gw_p201_d0_i2

Thanks for the link. I got come baking paper this afternoon and tried about 30 boolits. She got hot and got brown like it wanted to burn but it didn't. I tilted the pan and all the boolits slipped off to the side and into the bucket of water. Clean as a whistle.

My boolits are to big out of the mold to shoot even before the pc. I was hoping they wouldn't need sizing. I had to order a .358 Lee lube sizer. I am hoping I can put just a very thin coat of pc on the bullets.
Let me ask you guys this.
I know the boolits have to be lubed before they go into the Lee luber sizer. So I guess I pc them then put them through the lube sizer then back to pc again? How are you guys doing it?

thanks

[Beagle333]

Modern parchment paper is made by running sheets of paper pulp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulp_(paper)) through a bath of sulfuric acid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid) (a method similar to how tracing paper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_paper) is made) or sometimes zinc chloride (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_chloride). This process partially dissolves or gelatinizes the paper. This treatment forms a sulfurized cross-linked (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-linked) material with high density, stability, and heat resistance, and low surface energy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_energy) – thereby imparting good non-stick or release properties. The treated paper has an appearance similar to that of traditional parchment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment), and because of its stability is sometimes used for legal purposes where traditional parchment was used.

Source: Wikipedia

[Beagle333]

Shove em through the Lee sizer dry, then PC, then back through the Lee sizer. I don't use lube at any point.

How much sizing are we talking here? How big are they dropping? :confused:

[thumbs]

Shove em through the Lee sizer dry, then PC, then back through the Lee sizer. I don't use lube at any point.

How much sizing are we talking here? How big are they dropping? :confused:

Really....Well I measured a few, not all and not all are way out of spec but some are running .364 or so. These are before pc. They are supposed to be dropping .358. So your just taking them out of the mold, cooling of course, then putting them through the sizer dry? Are you air cooling or quenching. I thought they had to have lube to go through the sizer. Ok thats better. I, of course am new to the pc thing. The first batch were coated to heavy. This time I tapped them on the side of the container before I put them on the pan. Is that the best way to get a thin coat?
I am also thinking about tumbling with 45-45-10 or maybe just Johnson Past Wax. That of course would be the thinnest coating after sizing. How are you doing it??

[bangerjim]

If your mold is dropping 364 rather than 358........you got problems, brother! Either you got garbage on your pins/faces/etc or you have a damaged defective mold. 2-3 tho over is not unusual, but that much is something to really investigate.

And I NEVER use a lube when sizing, now that I am using PC 100%! Anything you use will cause potential non-stick of the powder. You have to waste time putting it in and then waste even more time cleaning it off!

I size AFTER casting AND AFTER PC......everytime......all the time. That way, I KNOW get perfect in-spec boolits. I never trust the molds to give me what I want. You never did when using grease (Lubra-matic), why expect PC to do any different???????????? PC is not a magic elixir , just a replacement for olde grease.

If you want thin repeatable coats every time.......buy and use an ESPC gun like I and many others do. "It only costs a little more to fly 1st class."

banger

[NavyVet1959]

And I NEVER use a lube when sizing, now that I am using PC 100%! Anything you use will cause potential non-stick of the powder. You have to waste time putting it in and then waste even more time cleaning it off!

I size AFTER casting AND AFTER PC......everytime......all the time. That way, I KNOW get perfect in-spec boolits. I never trust the molds to give me what I want.

I use cable pull lube on my powdercoated bullets prior to sizing them. I have a gallon container of it and I have to find *some* use for it. :) It doesn't make a good bullet lube for shooting, but it seems to work well enough for sizing bullets or brass. I figure my resizing dies have had enough lubed bullets go through them that there would be a chance that they would contaminate any bullets that I ran through them without lube prior to powdercoating them. Plus, I still use alox+JPW to tumble lube some bullets instead of powdercoating them.

[thumbs]

Well I just checked again. Ha there at least .364 or better. This is a brand new molds. Could be something on the pins but they are big. I am using wheel weights and quenching them. Now I admit this is the first time casting other than casting shotgun slugs and some black powder bullets and ball. I will have to check again. I may do some casting today and see if I can figure it out.

I thought these things were way off but really didn't know what the + - tolerance was if you were going to size them. I thought they should be ready to shoot out of the mold though. It is a .358 tumble lube mold.

Ok so size after casting and then again after pc. Do you leave the bullets alone after pc sizing? In other words even if there is a bit of lead showing after the final sizing the don't lead right.

Is there something basic I am doing wrong in this process? The mold is filling out and the bullets are dropping free with maybe a tap once in a while. the castings do look good. They are just big.

[fredj338]

I size after PC, they go thru the sizer fine. If they were really oversized, then you might want to spray some one shot on a few & put one in every 3-4X.

[rondog]

I spray my powder, not tumble. So I have to use Reynolds NSAF on an old steel cookie sheet in order to make the electrical connection for the powder to stick to the boolits. Works great. I bake them in an old Kenmore electric kitchen oven.

[bangerjim]

Well I just checked again. Ha there at least .364 or better. This is a brand new molds. Could be something on the pins but they are big. I am using wheel weights and quenching them. Now I admit this is the first time casting other than casting shotgun slugs and some black powder bullets and ball. I will have to check again. I may do some casting today and see if I can figure it out.

I thought these things were way off but really didn't know what the + - tolerance was if you were going to size them. I thought they should be ready to shoot out of the mold though. It is a .358 tumble lube mold.

Ok so size after casting and then again after pc. Do you leave the bullets alone after pc sizing? In other words even if there is a bit of lead showing after the final sizing the don't lead right.

Is there something basic I am doing wrong in this process? The mold is filling out and the bullets are dropping free with maybe a tap once in a while. the castings do look good. They are just big.

1) Why are you water quenching WW's for only a 9mm gun??? Why do you think you need super hard? 12 is perfectly fine for anything subsonic in pistols, semi's and rifles. Especially with PC on top.

2) You always want PC coverage on the TOPS of the drive bands. Everywhere else is just cosmetic. That is the only area that contacts the barrel and can cause leading. Not the nose. Not the base. Not the grease grooves. We BBDT/ESPC the entire boolit just because that is the only way to get the PC on the drive band tops. And, no, the base does NOT need to be coated......ever.

3) Not much left to do after post PC sizing ----- other than load 'em and shoot 'em.

4) If that TL mold (Lee probably) is dropping boolits that big, there is something seriously wrong with it. Is it new or something you bought from somebody that was used/abused? Of the 45 or so Lee molds I have (and 7 SAECO/NOE/MiHec), never have I had one drop over ~0.003 oversize. That amount you are seeing is rather a LOT. You will probably totally wipe out the TL grooves........and have yourself a nice NLG boolit for PC'ing! I cast and shoot 4 different NLG boolits with great success. You do NOT need grease grooves at all with PC. Only problem is cramming the lead thru you sizing die without breaking your press or your arm! And keeping them perfectly round in the swaging process.

Good luck.

bangerjim

[thumbs]

Well tried it again. Casted about 1500 today. Only thing I did differently was I let them air cool rather than quenching in water. Came in pretty close. I just dumped all the ones I did the other day back in the pot and recasted them.

If I put a thin coat of pc on these things how much will the diameter grow in general?

Just read you post above. I am just experimenting right now trying to find out what I want to do. Either TL or PC not sure. Anyway I'm a little confused. If I do size the TL bullets that may take a little off the TL bands. Ok now I PC and resize right? Won't that take the PC off the bullet where it contacts the bore? I'm just not on the same page yet. LOL

thanks

[bangerjim]

Putting on a "thin coat" of PC is darned near impossible using BBDT. It ends up what it is. You can light coat using ESPC very easily.

PC generally adds 0.002 to the diameter of you boolit. It can be thicker if put on wrong. And lop-sided.

I and may others have recovered CORRECTLY SIZED (for the specific gun barrel) boolits fired with a PC coating and the PC is still in place down range. The key is "correctly sized". Again, as said many MANY times on here, PC is not a cure-all for incorrect sizing of your raw lead boolit. All established rules and regulations of casting and loading should be known and followed, even with PC, which is only a replacement for grease, and not a magical cure-all elixir for bad-fitting boolits and poor loading techniques.

Have fun!

banger

[Dvedw]

Using the lee 158 swc w/ gc I will resize the dropped boolits to .356 with no lube using a lee push through; and then powder coat. I will then gas check and resize to .358 after powder coating. Doing it this way leaves no exposed underlying lead. I've found with my method of pwder coating I add more than the 2 thousands difference (.356 back to .358), so when doing the final resize I am touching the entire circumference of pwdr coat. Result is a consistently round drive band.

[fredj338]

USe as little powder as possible if shake & baking. A thin coat is all that is needed. It will add 0.002-0.003" total to the bullet. So if your mold/alloy throws larger bullets, you will have to size after PC.

[Schrag4]

Thumbs, I also have a Lee 6-cav 124gr tumble variety. It's sold as a 356 mold, but with water quenched WW they're coming out something like 359 or 360, and closer to 127gr. I only size once, after coating. That PC stuff is so slippery that even though I'm sizing down to 356, very few require any effort at all.

Bangerjim, I noticed you said you size before and after PC. Is the idea that sizing too much can smoosh (technical term) things too much and cause other issues? Do you suspect that I'll find that they're not as uniform after one major sizing than they would be with the 2 sizings?

Also, you mentioned that quenching WW isn't necessary for 9mm. While I agree from a hardness standpoint, the reason I do it is so I can PC and size within the next day or two and not worry about any kind of change in size. I thought I read somewhere that the size and the hardness will change for up to 3 weeks, unless you quench. Am I mistaken?

My process is working for me, but I'm still a newbie and I know it.

[bangerjim]

If it works for you, go for it. Glad to hear it!

I know what PC methods works for me and that is what I have used for over 2 years now

My boolits drop uniformly 97% of the time. Occasionally I will get an out-layer and that is why I size after casting. I only takes a little time and is great upper body exercise! Therefore, I always have and always will, size after cast and after PC.

I water drop all my castings just to cool them off rather than risking burnt fingers, as in the past!!!! But after baking to cure PC, any hardness is gone and I am back to my calculated air-cooled hardness as always. I do not ever rely on voodoo water dropping to gain hardness. I have many MANY hundreds of pounds of hardball and COWW's, and close to 500# pure Sn to mix with way over 3K# of pure for my pre-calculated air-cooled hardness alloys I use. (yes......I could post a "SCORE" thread almost every week on my alloy finds, but I do not.)

Good luck in your ventures of casting and powder coating!!!!!!![smilie=w:

banger

[thumbs]

Thanks again guys. I am using the TL 6 cav mold for the .357. It is supposed to drop at .358. They are pretty close but some run a little bigger, not much but enough I will size them back to .358. The store bought I have shoot great at .358. Sounds like with my setup I better stay with TL to lube them. I ordered a .358 Lee Sizer so if I pc them they will probably grow to .360. I guess knowing what I know now if I went with the .356 sizer I could pc them. Or.... cast size to .356 then pc and size to .358. Does that make sense or no?

Here is another question. Ok cast lube then size. That should take them to .358. Now if I pc them then size them again won't I take off all the pc and waste my time with pc ing them?

[bangerjim]

Just do it. Experience is the best teacher - - - - rather than over-thinking the PC/sizing process. That's the nice thing about this casting hobby.......infinite do-overs!

PC will NOT come off in your sizing die! I have crammed PC's slugs thru to the point I had to almost pound the press handle to get them thru. PC was still there! It is a "tough puppy"!

Again......just do it. You will be amazed. As long is it is cured properly, PC will be there.

bangerjim

[shoot-n-lead]

Just do it. Experience is the best teacher - - - - rather than over-thinking the PC/sizing process. That's the nice thing about this casting hobby.......infinite do-overs!

PC will NOT come off in your sizing die! I have crammed PC's slugs thru to the point I had to almost pound the press handle to get them thru. PC was still there! It is a "tough puppy"!

Again......just do it. You will be amazed. As long is it is cured properly, PC will be there.

bangerjim

X 2

It will hang on like a "hair in a biscuit".

[thumbs]

Ok. I'll try a few tomorrow and see what happens. Should be interesting. If it will stay on and size right that would be great.
thanks

[Schrag4]

thumbs, maybe I misread your last post, but it seems like you're asking if you lube, size, PC, then size. If you're going to PC them, there's no reason to lube them, it would actually prevent the PC from sticking. Similarly, if you're going to lube them, there's no reason to PC them. Lube and PC both just act as a barrier between the barrel and the lead, at least that's my understanding. If I mistook what you meant then nevermind.

I agree you should just try to PC. Read the sticky and any other PC related posts. It's not hard, a little trial and error and you'll find what works for you in short order. It's really cheap to get into, too. I bought a couple pounds of HF red for $6 each, I'm guessing that will last at least several years. The most expensive thing I had to buy was a $20 new toaster oven because the thrift shop didn't have any used ones. Some day I might upgrade the powder and the oven, I was just wanting to try it out without spending much.

[shoot-n-lead]

shraq4, is correct. No lubing and then pc'ing...pc IS the lube and is all that is needed.

[thumbs]

No no. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am in the process of learning this stuff. I am also trying a couple of different things including PC. I am trying to take from the exp of you guys. Maybe some of my thoughts are running together.

This is want I was asking in reference to PC according what I have read here. At least the way I interpreted it.

Cast the bullets and size the bullets. Then PC the bullets then size again. Lubing is another process unrelated to PC.

My though, I understand I overthink things LOL, was if I sized the bullets to .358 then PC the bullets then go back and size them again to .358 that I would take the PC off the sides of the bullets exposing the lead to the bore. Apparently that will not be the case. My sizer should be in tomorrow so I will give it a try. Thanks for trying to keep me honest though. LOL

[shoot-n-lead]

No no. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am in the process of learning this stuff. I am also trying a couple of different things including PC. I am trying to take from the exp of you guys. Maybe some of my thoughts are running together.

This is want I was asking in reference to PC according what I have read here. At least the way I interpreted it.

Cast the bullets and size the bullets. Then PC the bullets then size again. Lubing is another process unrelated to PC.

My though, I understand I overthink things LOL, was if I sized the bullets to .358 then PC the bullets then go back and size them again to .358 that I would take the PC off the sides of the bullets exposing the lead to the bore. Apparently that will not be the case. My sizer should be in tomorrow so I will give it a try. Thanks for trying to keep me honest though. LOL

I only size my bullets once...after pc...although, I know that some size before and after pc...I just found that it was not necessary for me.

[bangerjim]

If you are using the same dies to lube with grease and then switch to PC.......you are probably getting a greasy carry-over which will really mess up your PC coat!.

I would recommend using different Lee dies for PC'ing. Or totally clean & scrub them out in laq thinner when going from grease to PC. Grease is NOT your friend.


Sounds like you have never done this B4. Time and experience ARE your friends.

banger

[Dvedw]

Yes this is a good point. I bought a new push through die for the pre-pc sizing to .356 for this reason. That die has only been used with no lube to size down about 2-3 thousands. No leading of the die evident after 500 boolits. Hoppes 9, Chore boy and/or a bronze brush followed by a degreaser will clean the die if it ever does get leading...

It also helps to pre size in my opinion because this compresses/shaves the outer layer of lead on the driving bands, exposing clean lead for the powder coat to adhere to. I handle the boolits with bare hands prior to the first sizing which may add oils that will keep the pc from coating properly. Using the lee push through die and the included boolit catch container I can dump them into the dry pc without touching post sizing.

For 357 mag I presize to .356 then shake pc then gc/size to .358..

[Beagle333]

Sizing should not remove your PC. If it is coming off..... there are other issues that need to be solved. You really shouldn't be able to tell if they have been sized or not, just by looking at them. 8-)

[Dvedw]

If he pre sizes to .358 then powder coats then sizes to .358 again I've seen it take off some of the powder coat and expose the underlying lead on the bands. I've seen this even though I believe the powder coat was adhering properly.

This is why I pre size to .356 and post to .358. Pre sizeing to .357 would probably be fine too. I went with .356 to allow a 2 thousands layer of powder coat for engagement of the lands without getting into the underlying boolit. Downrange recovery of the boolits shows this to be working as intended...

[Beagle333]

Lee push-thru sizers don't size by scraping off the excess. It swages everything back down to the desired size. I have some .362s that I size back to .358 and they look the same. You can even take the MiHec .462 Hammer hollow point designed for 45-70 and size that all the way back to .452 for a 45 Colt and they don't lose the coating.

[thumbs]

Yeah that was my question. Not knowing how these things worked I "assumed" they shaved a bit off. Swaging of course makes more sense.
I am cooking a few pc's now and have a bunch of lubed ones done. I did the straight Alox thing and the 45-45-10 mix. Again this is my first endeavor into this stuff. Yes the straight Alox seems a little tacky however the mix seems pretty nice and dry.
Waiting for the lube sizer to get here to size these PC's to see how they do. The revolver shoots the .358's pretty well so we will see.

again thanks for all the info and help

[Beagle333]

If for any reason, it does take any of coating off..... either the coating isn't being applied/cured properly or you happened to get a die that needs a wee bit of attention with some 600 or 800 grit paper. (I have read of it, but haven't gotten any rough ones myself)
You can polish a sizing die to a mirror smoothness without adding any noticeable diameter to the sized boolits if you are slow and careful with the paper. 8-)

[Dvedw]

Lee push-thru sizers don't size by scraping off the excess. It swages everything back down to the desired size. I have some .362s that I size back to .358 and they look the same. You can even take the MiHec .462 Hammer hollow point designed for 45-70 and size that all the way back to .452 for a 45 Colt and they don't lose the coating.

Yes I understand it is a swaging die, but going on what I observed I thought it may be shaving a very small amount of material in the process..... Based on what you are saying I may have had an adhesion problem with the pc. Next batch I'll try a post size only.

[thumbs]

I edited post 51 pretty heavily. I tumbled 45-45-10 and straight Johnson's past wax. Two different tumbles. The Johnsons seems pretty dry. The 45-45-10 is just a tad tacky. If I reduced the Alox just a bit it may dry pretty close to the Johnson's.
Some things I learned today. Mic your casted bullets to make sure they are pretty close. Just take a sample and check them. I put some of first casting that I knew were a bit large and jammed the sizer. I got it loose but it tought me a lesson.
I put some light coated PC bullets through the sizer and like you guys said they looked good after the sizing. It is a thin coat but they sized right to .357. When i say a light coat I mean I tumbled them then tapped them on the side of the tub to take off any loose stuff.
I am in the process of cooking some heavier coated PC's to see what the difference is in sizing. These I just picked up and put on the tray.
Now for loading. Man what a tremendous difference when I sized the pc bullets and loaded them. They just fell in the chambers. Before I had to fiddly with the rounds to try to get them from shaving the round to chamber. I pulled all those and went with the sized ones.
I know this is old news to your guys that know what your doing but maybe another new guy to this stuff like me may benefit.

The only thing I don't like about PC is the setting the bullets up on the sheet for cooking. Now I am tumbling not electronically coating. I have to use tweezers to manipulate the coated bullets. If you just put them on the try with your fingers it would be faster. Of course you need protective gloves as to not touch the bullets with your bare hands.
Tumbling is much faster but...there is the time to wait for the bullets to dry and if you tumble let dry then size then tumble then wait it takes a couple of days. That's ok it you have planned for it and have other stuff to load while waiting. This is where PC could also be used if your in a little more of a hurry.

Just all newby thoughts. Still not done yet.

[bangerjim]

There is no comparison in the time needed for TL to tumble & dry completely and the time it takes to pik-n-set several/many hundred BBDT boolits. PC is much faster. PC is much cleaner. PC is even much perrrrrrrrtier.

Did y'all figure out yet that I really like PC?!?!?!?!?!?

[thumbs]

There is no comparison in the time needed for TL to tumble & dry completely and the time it takes to pik-n-set several/many hundred BBDT boolits. PC is much faster. PC is much cleaner. PC is even much perrrrrrrrtier.

Did y'all figure out yet that I really like PC?!?!?!?!?!?

Well tell ya the truth I am kinda leaning that way. The proof is in the puddin though. I will have to shoot em and see how they fly. I am seeing the mess your talkin about.
The last batch of PC that I put on without tapping against the container look better. I think the others are fine also but these do look better. Thats probably the way I will go. Haven't shot any of them yet though.

[shoot-n-lead]

I edited post 51 pretty heavily. I tumbled 45-45-10 and straight Johnson's past wax. Two different tumbles. The Johnsons seems pretty dry. The 45-45-10 is just a tad tacky. If I reduced the Alox just a bit it may dry pretty close to the Johnson's.
Some things I learned today. Mic your casted bullets to make sure they are pretty close. Just take a sample and check them. I put some of first casting that I knew were a bit large and jammed the sizer. I got it loose but it tought me a lesson.
I put some light coated PC bullets through the sizer and like you guys said they looked good after the sizing. It is a thin coat but they sized right to .357. When i say a light coat I mean I tumbled them then tapped them on the side of the tub to take off any loose stuff.
I am in the process of cooking some heavier coated PC's to see what the difference is in sizing. These I just picked up and put on the tray.
Now for loading. Man what a tremendous difference when I sized the pc bullets and loaded them. They just fell in the chambers. Before I had to fiddly with the rounds to try to get them from shaving the round to chamber. I pulled all those and went with the sized ones.
I know this is old news to your guys that know what your doing but maybe another new guy to this stuff like me may benefit.

The only thing I don't like about PC is the setting the bullets up on the sheet for cooking. Now I am tumbling not electronically coating. I have to use tweezers to manipulate the coated bullets. If you just put them on the try with your fingers it would be faster. Of course you need protective gloves as to not touch the bullets with your bare hands.
Tumbling is much faster but...there is the time to wait for the bullets to dry and if you tumble let dry then size then tumble then wait it takes a couple of days. That's ok it you have planned for it and have other stuff to load while waiting. This is where PC could also be used if your in a little more of a hurry.

Just all newby thoughts. Still not done yet.

thumbs, I do not set my boolits on end. I just drop them in a food colander to let the extra powder drop thru...then I just dump them on the foil covered cooking pan and put them in the oven.

There is no need to set them on end to cook...wasted time. Just dump the bullets out of the colander onto the pan and cook'em...however they fall.

[bangerjim]

thumbs, I do not set my boolits on end. I just drop them in a food colander to let the extra powder drop thru...then I just dump them on the foil covered cooking pan and put them in the oven.

There is no need to set them on end to cook...wasted time. Just dump the bullets out of the colander onto the pan and cook'em...however they fall.


I sure would like to see some good hi-rez close-up detailed pictures of those boolits you just dump.

Just sayin'.......my hump-n-dump boolits look like carp compared to my pick-n-set, let alone the perfect ESPC's ones. And bragging rights are a big part of my PC thing at the ranges!

Thanks!

banger

[Schrag4]

I've been setting mine on end. I'm tempted to try the dumping method on a single batch and see if I notice any leading as a result. I don't shoot enough to need the bump in throughput, in fact I'm kinda sad when I'm out of projectiles to coat.

I'm actually completely out of projectiles at the moment, coated or otherwise (loaded the last ones earlier this week), although I did make up some ingots from WW about a month ago, when it was really hot outside. I have enough loaded ammo to wait until it's cold outside to cast, but I'm not sure I have the patience.

[shoot-n-lead]

I've been setting mine on end. I'm tempted to try the dumping method on a single batch and see if I notice any leading as a result. I don't shoot enough to need the bump in throughput, in fact I'm kinda sad when I'm out of projectiles to coat.

I'm actually completely out of projectiles at the moment, coated or otherwise (loaded the last ones earlier this week), although I did make up some ingots from WW about a month ago, when it was really hot outside. I have enough loaded ammo to wait until it's cold outside to cast, but I'm not sure I have the patience.

There will be no leading from dumping them...believe me, I have dumped thousands and have never had a problem with them. When cooking is complete, there is no sticking to the foil...just rake or pour them into your storage container. I have shot them up to 1700fps...shiny bore afterward.

Why do you think dumping them would cause leading?

[shoot-n-lead]

I sure would like to see some good hi-rez close-up detailed pictures of those boolits you just dump.


Here is the best that I can do for a pic. Don't have any not loaded and I just reached in the ammo box and pulled these out...the left 2 are .357mag and the right 1 is 44 special. Also, those .357mags are pushing 1700fps out of a CVA Scout pistol and do not lead even a hint. They may look like "carp", but they damn sure shoot like Beauty Queens...and that is all I care about. I guess we all do this stuff for different reasons.

I only do one coat on my bullets, no BB's...these are not double coated...one coat, dumped and baked.

150807

[fredj338]

Sizing should not remove your PC. If it is coming off..... there are other issues that need to be solved. You really shouldn't be able to tell if they have been sized or not, just by looking at them. 8-)

^^THIS^^^ I size bullets after PC, they are fine. Even my 6.8, which come out about 0.281" after PC, size fine, no scratching of the PC.

[Schrag4]

...Why do you think dumping them would cause leading?

Oh, just because the coverage probably won't be quite as good. You and everyone else who has tried it have convinced me that the difference would be mostly just cosmetic, which I don't really care about. If they shoot the same and lead the same (as in don't lead), that's good enough for me.

[bangerjim]

Yes, my "rougher" ones load and shoot pretty much the same as my ESPC "beauties". I have done all of them. Been playing around with these techniques for well over 2 years now.

I am one that strives for perfection in all that I do and I strive for the best I can produce, from antique scientific instrument reproductions to antique clock repairs, to wood finishes to PC'd boolits. My wood and metal finishes border on perfection and have been called works of art by many.

That is just me.

If y'all find rough ones shoot well for your needs, by all means do it that way. I will still continue down my path of perfection in all I undertake. ESPC is my standard. I do also use BBDT. But only one coat.........always!!!!!!!!!!!

banger

[shoot-n-lead]

Yes, my "rougher" ones load and shoot pretty much the same as my ESPC "beauties". I have done all of them. Been playing around with these techniques for well over 2 years now.

I am one that strives for perfection in all that I do and I strive for the best I can produce, from antique scientific instrument reproductions to antique clock repairs, to wood finishes to PC'd boolits. My wood and metal finishes border on perfection and have been called works of art by many.

That is just me.

If y'all find rough ones shoot well for your needs, by all means do it that way. I will still continue down my path of perfection in all I undertake. ESPC is my standard. I do also use BBDT. But only one coat.........always!!!!!!!!!!!

banger

banger, not a problem with seeking perfection with bullets or anything...matter of fact, this country needs a lot more of that across the board...in everything.

My only point with "harping" on unnecessary things folks do with pc'ing, is to keep from turning folks off to giving this amazing lube process a try. I think that a lot of people might turn away if they feel like they have failed if they don't get beautiful bullets the first couple of times...and probably won't even shoot the bullets to find out if they work. Those people should take heart as their effort has not failed...they have produced bullets that will perform with the prettiest of bullets by the most perfectionistic pc'er. And, there are less labor intensive ways to get all of the benefits of pc'ing...despite a lot of folks putting forward only the other processes.

I hope that I have not offended with postings...I certainly have not meant to, you and I agree on the most important thing...pc IS the way to go and it is the wave of the future in bullet lube. AND, we know if people will give it a reasonable try...they WILL be converts.

Lastly, and probably most important of all, my knowing of your perfectionism from posting over the years, lead me to follow you into this. I knew that if you found good in it...there was definitely something there worth checking out. So, when you started...I started, and I thank you for leading me into it.

However, I was doing it before I ever admitted it...I had to see for myself that it was as good as I thought it was.

[thumbs]

A while back up the thread there is mention of not sizing Johnsons past wax, Alox straight or 45-45-10 bullets then sizing pc pullets. I am a little confused. If I cast the bullets then apply the luge be it JPW, Alox or 45-45-10 then size them what difference would it make if I then try to size PC coated bullets. Ok there will be some lube on the PC bullets but does that cause a problem?

Also if I go the other way and size the PC bullets first then the lubed bullets what would be the problem? If the PC bullets are the ones that could have the problem they will be coated before they get to the sizer so no lube will be on them before the PC process only after.

[bangerjim]

Thumbs..........some how your are getting confused about grease vs PC.

Both are doing the same thing. Both are acting as a lubrication medium in the bore.

Standard grease Lube, be it grease or whatever-lox, has been around for many many years and does work quite well. That is on CORRECTLY sized boolits for your SPECIFIC barrel.

PC is just a substitute for grease. Does the same thing. It requires CORRECTLY sized boolits also.

But PC and grease are NOT compatible. Any grease or oil on your boolits OR in the sizing die can/will prevent proper adhesion and curing of the powder coat.

PC requires NO ZIP NADA lubrication to go thru a sizing die. Some say they use it, but it must be washed off the lead B4 BBDT or ESPC. Lube on top of PC has been done by a handful (I still have not figured out why!) but there is the unknown reaction of grease and PC down in the brass over time. In an earlier thread, I did find that Titegroup attacks HF powders after about a year. No big whoop as the coating on the base does absolutely NOTHING. No one has done any long-term experimentation on that aspect.

Size PC just way you would size grease boolits. Treat it no differently. It will not come off in your die! Just do not mix grease and PC processes due to cross-contamination.

My best suggestion is (as before) just do it! And do not overthink this very simple process. Learning is 5% reading and 95% doing. Try it.........and then ask if you have any further questions. Most of your queries will be answered by your own actions.

Have fun!

banger

[mrtbillings]

OK, probably a really dumb question. I want to start powder coating so have been doing a bunch of reading. Size AFTER coating. Got it. When I size after casting the bare bullet I get very shiny metal from the sizing. Does sizing not strip off the coating? I am shooting 9 MM and sizing to .356, 45 ACP to .452 and 44 Mag to .429. Molds throw all of these at that diameter or slightly larger. So why would it not peel off the powder coat? Help and knowledge is always appreciated.

[bangerjim]

If a sizing die removes powder, you are NOT curing or coating properly! PC is FAR tougher and harder that any paint you have ever worked with, so do not think of is as scraping off paint!!!!!!!

The standard test is to smash a cured boolit flat to <1/2" with a hammer. Powder should not flake off. I smash mine into little cubes.........properly cured powder does NOT come off!

Do NOT use any lube for sizing!!!!!!!

Do not be afraid of this simple process. Just do it. Most if not all your questions will be answered....by yourself!!!!!!

bangerjim

[NavyVet1959]

Resizing is not normally scraping the excess lead off, but rather just moving the lead around. Think of it as redistributing the toothpaste in a tube.

Probably more similar to extruding steel bar to make smaller diameter steel bar or wire.