n00bie Lead Alloy Advice - Mixing Alloys?

[MaverickNH]

I'm working my way through the amazing wealth of information on this forum - this is fun! But I'd appreciate a few quick lessons so I can get on with some casting while I learn from mistakes, successes and more study.

I have two supplies of lead alloy now:

1. WW Etc: Mostly mixed WW with some stuff thrown in while I wasn't watching, all melted, fluxed, skimmed and poured at a local casting workshop. The pot was heated by propane and stirred almost constantly to prevent overheat melting of Zn and other scrap. I have 23 ~1lb ingots that should be relatively uniform as we mixed and ladled from one batch. Brinell 7-8 using a Cabin Tree tester.

2. Range Alloy: Recovered range alloy melted and fluxed 3x by an eBay source. Hardness TBD - probably varies with melt batch and ingots I received.

I plan to cast 38sp for revolver and 9mm for semi-auto and coat with H-Tek Super Coat and shoot from 4.5 - 5" barrels at middling powder loads - not bottom but not top velocities. I am getting the impression I'd do better raising that WW Etc Brinell from 7-8 to maybe 1--15?

Q: Using the WW Etc Alloy as an example, how and what should I add to the melt to get the right alloys/hardness for a decent starting point?

I'll have to buy other known alloys from a commercial source to mix in my RCBS Pro Melt 20lb units (I have an external RCBS thermometer too).

I've seen the equation below, but would be happy to start with some advice like: To 10lb of your WW Etc aloy, add Xlb of (Linotype, 70% Pb/30%Sb Alloy, 99.9% Sn, etc.). I'll take that as a learning lesson.

Basic Rules for Hardening Lead-

For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3.
For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.
For a simple equation,
Brinell = 8.60 + ( 0.29 * Tin ) + ( 0.92 * Antimony )

[toallmy]

I am a new caster as well ,I don't know about your range shooting or your bore fit . But I have been using soft plumbing lead with tin sizing to .358 loading with lee die set with 38 s/w power through expander worked pretty good , but still getting a little case swaggering so I have mixed up some 50/50 coww with plumbers lead and tin going to try that this time. I think bore fit is more important than hardness I like soft lead and lube. When I started getting my 9s loaded without mashing them back down to .356 thay started shooting to the grouping I am looking for. I am shore someone with a lot more experience will step in . But I think just get started casting and don't over think the mix will get you started. There's a lot of info on setting up a 9 for cast bullets in archives it was a huge help .watch your over all length so you don't compress your powder load and blow up your gun Is much more important . Be careful and safe you can recast your lead , but not the gun or your body.

[toallmy]

I didn't mean to sound like a no it all just the opposite heck I am still figuring out the lube. But point is be safe and just get started casting .I was so worried about casting that I put it off for 30 years. Now that's a shame.

[2wheelDuke]

BHN sounds a little low to me on the WW, I guess that's got alot of stickons in it. Range lead depends what it was before it was melted. Some ranges have a high percentage of jacketed, where the cores should be pretty soft.

For what you're talking about loading, it shouldn't be that demanding of your alloy. Many people have just run WW alloy without messing with it for a long time. I'd start there and see how it does.

I don't think you'd need much linotype or hardball or whatever added really. You could look for some linotype lead here in the classifieds, or from rotometals. I don't know that I'd trust linotype from eBay unless it's in the letter shapes still. (Too easy for someone to call random alloy lino.) You could also look for some pewter to add tin, or some pb/sn solder blend to bump your tin up. It really doesn't take much added tin to get some nice boolits.

I bought a couple FRB's of linotype a while back. A couple ounces of linotype usually has my softer range scrap making great boolits. I get scrap from an older range with a fair percentage of cast. That alloy runs great in .38s and .45s without anything added.

[jsizemore]

For 38sp, I'd use the range scrap + 2% tin. For 9mm, try your COWW's + 2% tin. And for your own sanity and the new Pro-Melt, DON"T BUY YOUR ALLOY OFF EBAY. There's lots of knowledgeable folks on this site willing to sell you all the alloy components you'll need.

[2wheelDuke]

I know there's some good stuff on eBay, but it's hard to tell good from bad. I think that sellers are more credible here. I do know of one guy selling on eBay right now who's alloy I'd trust. He came to me for guidance in smelting, so I know he's doing it right. He's a member here, but hasn't posted enough to sell yet.

[Nose Dive]

I mix 50/50 WW and pure (plumber's) lead, or range scrap, or what I can pick up and smelt. Sometimes I get 'stuff' from the scrap yard that is 'not pure' lead so I always flux, flux, flux all the 'unknown' alloy with sawdust and sulfur mixture, then finish with wax. I got 10 toilet wax seals from a demo site the other day. Wax is wax and it all does what we want. Anyway, for pistols, the 50/50 seems to be OK for me. There is some really good prose on lubes on this site. Bees wax, graphoil paste grease, (kind you get in a tube from the AutoParts store), canaboryl wax sealant melted down, aged a week or so then remelting low and slow with constant stirring, then cool and use has worked for me. (aging and remelting and mixing is important here)

Your 'use' here with you pistol doesn't sound to exotic so you should be fairly safe. If the 50/50 tests abit hard, add a bit more lead. I have on occasion, due to the lead from the scrap yard having some nasities in it, had to add some pewter. You never really 'know' what is in the material you pick up from the junk yard. Sometimes, well, it is just junk. "you pay your money and you take your chance'...

If the alloy comes out 'bad', reflux a few times. Maybe add some pure tin. Pewter has always been my 'go to' solution for a bad pot of lead.

Did you 'size your barrel'? knowing this and sizing abit 'larger' than the barrel ID has always helped my FPS and leading issues. Now be SURE of your barrel and SURE of your boolit OD. Mics, sizing barrel and micing sized boolits are required. TOO BIG and you are 'making problems'. I size .001 or so bigger than barrel ID. Sometimes more. Depends on my pistol, my load, my alloy.

Be sure to do all your fluxing with sawdust and sulfur OUTSIDE. Stuff smells like 10 road kill skunks!!

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two

[williamwaco]

Your planned use is very non-demanding.
You are seriously overthinking the task at hand.

Anything over BNH 6 to 7 is fine for the .38 Special.
I use mixture of coww with soww that tests around BNH 8.
I add tin only if I can't get sharp corners. Then never more than 1%.

For the 9mm I would (and do) use the same mixture but if you want harder, anything over 12 is a waste of ingredients.

Since you have been reading here, you have seen lots of recommendations for "hard cast" bullets. There is nothing wrong with that. Hard (15 and up) works fine too. They are just not necessary and are significantly more expensive if you have to buy antimony or high antimony alloys.

Cast'em using your ingots. Size them .358 for the. 38 and .356/7 for the 9mm.

If you get leading it is not because your alloy is too soft.

PS: I have never found found those formulas to work. May because all the metals I am mixing have only estimated contents.

Also, I find these BNH readings

Clip on WW 12-14
Stick on WW 5 - 7
Range scrap 7 to 9.

[MaverickNH]

Some good options to try - thanks all. I did, in fact, cast 100+ 38sp from that same ingot alloy I have from the melt. They look pretty decent, for a first try. I'll coat (Hi Tek Super Coat), size to my slugged dimensions, load and fire. Then adjust alloy if needed and repeat.

[bangerjim]

1st thing---------download the free alloy calculator on here. That will help you on your mixing rations and Bhn figuring. I use it all the time.

And as said, do not overthink hardness. Fit is far more important.

I mix and use 9-12 for everything subsonic. 14-16 for sonic. GC's where needed.

You will need some Sn for mold fill-out. I use 2% for everything. COWW's are normally 12 Bhn & are only 0.5% Sn. Range lead can be anything but what I have found is ~10.

Good luck!

bangerjim

[MaverickNH]

1st thing---------download the free alloy calculator on here. That will help you on your mixing rations and Bhn figuring. I use it all the time.

bangerjim

Got that Calculator. When I put clear all cells in Weight column and put 10 in Pure Lead (H34) I get Est Hardness 8.6 - that doesn't seem right...

[bangerjim]

But your are NOT calculating the mix of pure lead only, right?????? Who cares about pure??????

Don't worry about it.

Put your other alloys in and it will be right. Bumpo had to fudge some math to make work with alloys. We do not care about pure! I have checked the MIXED calcs against my Cabine tester and it is darn close.

banger

[bumpo628]

The 8.6 for pure lead comes from that formula you listed in the first post. The formula is really only accurate when both tin & antimony are at least 1%. Other than that and you get bad numbers. That is the best we have right now, so as long as you know the limitations its fine. Take care and be safe. Btw, don't buy ingots on eBay. Raw forms of lead alloys are fine (lino in type form, unsmelted ww's, etc.)

[MaverickNH]

The 8.6 for pure lead comes from that formula you listed in the first post. The formula is really only accurate when both tin & antimony are at least 1%. Other than that and you get bad numbers. That is the best we have right now, so as long as you know the limitations its fine. Take care and be safe. Btw, don't buy ingots on eBay. Raw forms of lead alloys are fine (lino in type form, unsmelted ww's, etc.)

Thanks for the advice. My only eBay buy thus far had references on a forum as good stuff, but I'll be careful in the future. Looking at Bass Pro lead alloy on the web, I see comments on getting only 50% yield from melts, so even the big box stores get scammed by lead-pushers.

Is it worth calibrating a pot to depth vs weight? As in measuring depth as one add 10lb, 12lb, 14lb, ... It's easy to weigh what goes in, but I'm thinking it's useful to know what's left after pouring/dipping out. It seems that the 1" minimum for pot function is ~10lb in my RCBS Pro Melt. A 2nd, 3rd pot is probably best for keeping alloys straight, but it's only one for me right now.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've been casting for a few years now and don't claim to be an alloy expert. +1 on using the downloadable the lead calculator.
I also think your quoted W-W hardness is on the soft side.
I cast a shoot a fair share of 38 Special bullets and completely agree that they don't need to be very hard. I aim for 10-11 BHN for my 38 Special loads and I could probably go a little lower but don't for logistics reasons. 20:1 is a known 10 BHN and makes beautiful bullets for the 38 Special and mid-range 44's, but all that tin is expensive. You can do the same thing with cheaper alloys.

Don't over think that alloy stuff. Weigh what goes in the pot and keep the same alloy in the pot. If for some reason you have to change alloys, pour it into ingots and mark them. That's why I keep the number of alloys on hand to a minimum.

Enjoy but be forewarned, it is an addictive hobby.

[williamwaco]

Thanks for the advice. My only eBay buy thus far had references on a forum as good stuff, but I'll be careful in the future. Looking at Bass Pro lead alloy on the web, I see comments on getting only 50% yield from melts, so even the big box stores get scammed by lead-pushers.

Is it worth calibrating a pot to depth vs weight? As in measuring depth as one add 10lb, 12lb, 14lb, ... It's easy to weigh what goes in, but I'm thinking it's useful to know what's left after pouring/dipping out. It seems that the 1" minimum for pot function is ~10lb in my RCBS Pro Melt. A 2nd, 3rd pot is probably best for keeping alloys straight, but it's only one for me right now.

I think so. I do this almost without thinking about it.

[Nose Dive]

I think P&P is right. 10-11 brinell in 38 calibre is very good. That too is my target. Size boolits a bit big.... .001 larger than bore ID....

But... the calculator has really never 'worked for me' or, maybe, really, "I ain't worked the calculator right'....

I also 'water drop' all my boolits in cold water, (water with ice), and size immediately, (same day). Then let things sit for 6 weeks or so. I have some really nice .30 calbre rifle boolits that are over 1 year old. This poured out well and I was impressed with myself. So, this is the 'hunting' boolit stash. Yes....they do soften over time.

Sometimes I nail the hardness...sometimes they are abit hard. Sometimes they are rarely too soft, but some don't cast and fill out the mold to suit me.

That I don't like so those boolits go back to the smelt pot, along with all ingots from the same smelt batch, along with some pewter and/or a wee bit of tin. Maybe add a few lbs of pure smelted WW's. depends.... Then, same procedure...flux w/ sawdust...finish with a bit of wax...pour out ingots.

"Most of the time"...not always.... the alloy seems to pour out much better. I think it is the pewter, addition WW's, and additional fluxing and reheating the smelt.
NOTE:... I smelt some really bad stuff.

And I agree with P&P again... You don't have to have a 'perfect' hardness to have a Great Boolit. Sometimes things happen and you are very pleasantly surprised. Sometimes, well, you blew it. Just resmelt, try a few other mixes of flux, add some pewter, pour out your ingots and give her another try.

It is always fun to see what changes when you change the mix, temps, and moulds!

Nose Dive.

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kinldy pick two

[mgread]

I know there's some good stuff on eBay, but it's hard to tell good from bad. I think that sellers are more credible here. I do know of one guy selling on eBay right now who's alloy I'd trust. He came to me for guidance in smelting, so I know he's doing it right. He's a member here, but hasn't posted enough to sell yet.

2wheelDuke thank you for trust me.

[mgread]

I have had good clean ingots. If you like more information on there check my thread
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?285297-First-Time-Smelthing-WW

[RogerDat]

"and coat with H-Tek Super Coat" Doesn't that mean using softer lead is even less of an issue? Seems that while coating is somewhat a lubricant it also prevents leading from using alloys that are even a little softer than one might use for a more traditional lube such as alox or 45/45/10.

[Mike Malat]

Re. Softer than expected WW BHN. When I got my Cabine Tree tester one of the first things that I did was to "calibrate" my tester using known alloys against the published readings. What I found out was that the readings from MY tester showed a lower BHN for the softer metals than the published data. i.e WW's showed 9 BHN, once i got to the harder BHNs (22+) the readings lined up. I just made up my own spreadsheet and used that data going forward. To calibrate I spent the $$'s and bought some ingots from rotometals and used these for testing. For WW's I tested various samples of raw weights and took the average.

[MaverickNH]

Looking better, thanks to advice here.

I rechecked multiple bullets on my Cabin Tree Hardness Tester made from the random COWW/SOWW melt and they check out BNH 8.5 - 9 ... I think I was reading the chart wrong :oops:

I mixed up 17.5lb of this with 2.5lb Rotometals Superhard and made bullets at BNH 14 after 16hr - I'll recheck after a few more days as they harden up some.

What are thoughts on the formula on http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php Optimum BHN = CUPS / (1422 x .90) ?

Based on loads for 38sp 158gn W231, I'd want BNH 9.9-12.4 http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol