Weird variation on 429421

[MtGun44]

Check out this pic of a Lyman 429421 4 holer now for sale on eBAY.

The ultra thin front driving band and long nose is WAY different from
any other Lyman version of this boolit that I have ever seen. Click on
the pic below to see the full size, and appreciate the odd shape.


Further proof that just buying a mold number doesn't always get you
the boolit design you thought you were getting.

Bill

[Ghugly]

I own 3 different styles of 429421's and none are like that one. It would be kind of cool if someone could do a definitive list of what is out there. Give each style some sort of descriptive name so we could tell them apart.

[uncle joe]

ok this is my second try to do this so here it goes
I opened up my doc with lyman molds on it and put it on top of the pic you posted above. WOW what happened to that mold.
:-?

[hollow-point]

i have 3 different types of #429421 but not that one!?.

[GLL]

Further proof that just buying a mold number doesn't always get you
the boolit design you thought you were getting.

Bill

VERY TRUE !

All but one of the bullets in this photo are Lyman (IDEAL) 454424 (or 452424) !

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/82F143EDC5E6FEE/standard.jpg

[Dale53]

GLL;
One interesting thing about your picture of all of the different "452424's" is that the crimp groove is just about the same height on all (except for the last one). At least, loading density should not change much.

I cannot IMAGINE the total lack of intelligence in changing the design of ANY bullet without changing the name. At least they could mark "modified" or something on it. Otherwise, what is the point of identifying ANY mould?

Dale53

[HeavyMetal]

This is one of those Lyman molds that Elmer flew of the handle about in the early 70's late 60's!

He had a fan mail a few to him with the question: why didn't it have the big front driving band he was always thumping his chest about? He was "cranky" about it for years!

Lyman never did give him the time of day about it ( at least not publicly). RCBS, on the other hand, finally got a pat on the back form the old boy when they introduced the 250-K mold. The version with the square cut lube groove and the big front band.

I think I've seen 6 different lyman 429421 designs and 4 250 -K's from RCBS!

I actually have a pair of the RCBS molds That I believe are a match as to the cherry that cut them. Both cast well and were bought with tandom casting in mind.

This is why I dislike buying on line! If I have a choice I always prefer to open and examine a mold proir to purchase.

Sadly most small shops can't/don't have the cash flow to keep a lot of inventory.

So we spends our money and we takes our chance!

[44man]

Now all of you know why I say the semi wadcutters don't shoot for crap! [smilie=1:

[Kirk Miller]

Lyman may be the most recognized name in boolit casting, but their consistency is pathetic. As a new caster, I have cast with four different 358477 molds, and every one has been different enough that they could have had different numbers assigned to them.

Kirk

[leftiye]

Kirk - correction, SHOULD HAVE! Kinda reminds one of the current aberration about "reimagining" reality = anything goes, who cares about if it works. (BTW, you shouldn't "imagine" reality, you should percieve it, and percieve it accurately. Reality was here before man came around, not to mention computer geeks, and airheads.)

[GLL]

Dale53:

Your observation about the bullet on the right is a good one !

That bullet is 45 2.1's design for CAT'S 454424 LEE Group Buy!

I find it superior to the original !

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/7754EF81239E149/standard.jpg

[Lloyd Smale]

problem is that at lyman or rcbs what you have is a machinist making a cherry not a bullet caster. When there cherry is wore out they no doubt tell the machinist to make another. The machinist doesnt care if its a tad differnt as hes not casting with the mold. Rcbs and lyman dont care because if they slap the same number on it people will buy it and most wont know the differnence. The problem to me isnt that there not faithfull copys of keiths designs. Swcs are funny bullets some seem to shoot and some dont. It doesnt take much of a change to goof one up. Some designs that arent true to keith seem to work well. But when you find one that does youd better start looking for a backup before it is changed or at least cast a couple bullets while the mold is still in great shape and put them away in case you ever need to have a custom mold maker copy it. That isnt even a guarantee either. Weve had lee try to copy some designs and theyve missed the mark by a mile. Just like in any other bussiness these days the companys are run by yuppie bean counters not grass roots consumers.

[Bret4207]

Looks more like Gord Bosler's 429360.

[beagle]

That was my first thought when I looked at the picture./beagle


Looks more like Gord Bosler's 429360.

[MtGun44]

Doesn't the 360 have purely straight sides (true truncated cone) for
the nose shape?

Bill

[Bret4207]

Yeah but the rest of it looks right. I think it's like someone else said- The guy making the cherry doesn't give 2 craps what it looks like as long as it cuts to size and stays sharp along time.

[Char-Gar]

It fairly common to find Lyman molds that vary widly is specs through out the production life of that number. It would appear that Lyman didn't have a set of master specs or if they did have them, they were ignored. This happens with rifle and pistol bullets alike.

[mtgrs737]

Poor adhearance to a specific demensional standard. They may well shoot just fine, or not. Variation is the ruin of many manufactured items.


Mtgrs737

[Morgan Astorbilt]

This, by comparison, is my #429421 mold, about ten years old. The grease grooves seem to be round bottom, mine are square.

Morgan
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/mold1.jpg

[winchester243]

Wow the thing went for $109.06 plus shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150232265817&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005

[MtGun44]

Prolly some poor guy lookin' to get Elmer's famous boolit design so
he could get some good results with his .44.

I really wonder if that paper thin front band will work well at all. I'd
be surprised if it does but who knows. My luck with the ones with
three pretty equal bands has been real good.

Bill

[Ghugly]

It would be good if someone had the time, money, and inclination to make a listing of the different Lyman 429421's and give them some sort of alphabetical or numerical designations (429421-a, 429421-b, etc.).

After spending more money than the quest was really worth, I've gotten a single and a 4-gang mould that drop duplicate boolits. I intend to have the single hollow pointed. The Bulldogs that I load for won't shoot a "good" 429421 for beans. The ones they like are 250gr with an undersized front driving band and a round lube groove. Something about the non-existent forcing cones and over sized throats, I guess. The "good" 429421's spit lead in your face and pattern all over the paper. The crappy, ill conceived, Keith hating ones will go into an inch at 15 yards, if driven hard enough.

I guess it's not all bad that they made variations on the theme. But it sure would have been nice if they'd not called them all the same thing.

[LAH]

Bill I have a double cavity just like that............Creeker

[MtGun44]

Very interesting. Have you had good, bad or ugly results with it?

Bill

[LAH]

Very interesting. Have you had good, bad or ugly results with it?

Bill

It was the first 44 mould I purchased in 1974 if memory serves. I used it in my RSBH with 21 grs. of 2400. This sixgun and load made a life long 44 fan of myself. It was a tack driver and with it many groundhogs and snakes met their end. Killed one boar I remember with that little sixgun. (Creeker on left)

As for the bullet: Out shot every RCBS 44-250-K bullet it came against so go figure. The front driving band was very, very thin and if the temp got a little high, part of the band would stay in the mould when opened.

None of the above makes since when the "full diameter & equal width, driving band" theory is applied, but as Mr. Keith said:
Fact is always stranger than fiction.

[jleneave]

This post made me take a closer look at my first mold purchase. I bought a Lyman 4 cavity 429421 off of eBay. It was advertised as "old stock but new mold", it came in the old black and gray striped box. It appears to be in new and never used condition. I have not been able to cast any bullets with this mold as the mold handles that I ordered over 1 month ago, along with several other items, are STILL on back order from Midway. Anyway, getting back to my point, after looking at my mold a little closer it appears that I got one of the non-Elmer Keith variations. The front driving band looks to be a little smaller than the other two driving bands and the lube grove is definitely rounded instead of square. It kind of ticks me off a little, I agree with the above posts in that Lyman should distinguish between the variations. As much as these molds cost it would be nice to know exactly what I am getting for my money. Who knows the bullets from this mold may shoot just fine, if I ever get my mold handles I will see. Next time I will pay closer attention to the molds that I buy. Thanks for starting this thread otherwise I would have not known to look out for this.

I was also wondering if some of the variations are worth more? The reason I ask is the mold on eBay went for more $$ than I would have thought or was this a case of bidder’s fever? Thanks again.

[leftiye]

I'm starting to think that bidding higher that one might pay in a store - in an auction situatiion is a natural result of having to bid high or not get nuthin. One must restrain one's self.

[MtGun44]

LAH,

Thanks for the reply. Facts are always welcome, even if they don't match
a particular theory.

Interesting.

Bill

[LAH]

You're very welcome Bill.............Creeker


LAH,

Thanks for the reply. Facts are always welcome, even if they don't match
a particular theory.

Interesting.

Bill

[truckjohn]

I have a feeling that the actual truth is probably more sinister -- I have worked with plenty of tool and die makers. Most who do reamer and cutter grinding are pretty sharp.

I read somewhere that everytime a new revolver came out -- Maybe Smith or Colt released one with a shorter throat for easier carry or whatever the case may be..... they went on down to Lyman and said "Your mold doesn't fit our New Shiny Line of Pistols...." Unfortunately, they also announce they will quit selling all the pistols the bullet does fit......

Lyman knows they would get about 100,000 angry calls from folks buying the molds that the FAMOUS KEITH BULLET won't fit ANY of the NEW guns. The people are too dumb to understand that Lyman is not the problem -- The Gun Maker foisted this upon them.... But... Since you can't buy a new gun for the bullet anymore...... AND, people won't buy a 452-NEW-NUMBER because no one has ever heard of that one...... so they are royally Stuck and just cut a new cherry.

That is how you get the itsy bitsy teensy tinsey front band... Smith cut their cylinder 0.080" shorter to make the gun lighter and easier to carry.... so the old bullet crimp length wouldn't fit the chamber anymore. Lyman probably then had to fool with the lube groove to balance out the bullet properly so it would fly right.

Then Lloyd buys a new mold -- so he will have 32 matching cavities to feed his Old Smith.... and Lo and behold, Not a match. Dang fool Lyman idiot tool makers he says, but decides to cast them up anyways.... He casts up a bunch and finds out they shoot Awesome in that one balky pistol. Jackpot -- Short driving band, round lube groove, and all.

Have a good one

John

[bohica2xo]

Aww come on TruckJohn, you are spoiling a good story with facts...

I kinda like the other tales myself, cuz you know us Tool & Die makers just don't give a crap (or two craps).

Generally we sit on comfortable stools, in a climate controlled shop. With a cup of coffee in one hand, and a good briar pipe in the other. When we tire of telling stories (or want to look busy for the boss) we point out useless bullcrap on the print (that we won't work to anyway) with the stems of our pipes & discuss it with mock seriousness.

You will never see us do much actual work, we usually send it off to the production shop with a lame excuse about too big (or too small) for our machines, too busy, etc. Or we just have an apprentice do it while we "train" him. If you see one of us working like hell, we are actually building parts for our own motorcycle / speedboat / firearm or other "G" job.

[sarcasam ends here]


Now, if you want facts about why Lyman moulds are not the same across decades of manufacture TruckJohn is on the mark. Add to his comments the fact that over those decades they have changed hands a couple of times, managment has been overhauled, etc. Most likely some kid fresh out of engineering school with a fine education & no experience made things more "producable" a time or two as well...

B.