Primer fails

[soldierbilly1]

OK, time to ask the hive
I believe my problem to be reloading related but I thought to go here first.
I went to the range today and I had 10 primers (out of 64) that would not go off; they all did on a second hit. Taurus 85, 38 spl, Win SPP's, mostly Starline cases, Lee cast 105 gr SWC, titegroup. Sized to .358."

How do I tell a soft hammer hit from a hard primer? with 10 primer fails I would assume it is something w my gun or my reloading. I did notice that the finished rounds struggled to get through my cartridge gauge. they were a little tough going in the cylinder chambers as well, I had to apply a little persuasion to get them in (???).
I am the beginning of my investigation... can anyone offer any direction on this one?
thanks
Billyboy

[M-Tecs]

OK, time to ask the hive
I believe my problem to be reloading related but I thought to go here first.
I went to the range today and I had 10 primers (out of 64) that would not go off; they all did on a second hit. Taurus 85, 38 spl, Win SPP's, mostly Starline cases, Lee cast 105 gr SWC, titegroup. Sized to .358."

How do I tell a soft hammer hit from a hard primer? with 10 primer fails I would assume it is something w my gun or my reloading. I did notice that the finished rounds struggled to get through my cartridge gauge. they were a little tough going in the cylinder chambers as well, I had to apply a little persuasion to get them in (???).
I am the beginning of my investigation... can anyone offer any direction on this one?
thanks
Billyboy

First I would check to ensure the primers are fully seated. Next is check for a crimp bulge. If the case isn't fully seated in the chamber the first hit energy is used to move the case forward.

[VHoward]

You definitely don't want a crimp bulge or a bludge. As well as making sure your primers are seated fully, you also need to check to see that they will fit your chamber. If the cartridge won't go into the cartridge gage freely, then it most likely won't cycle through your gun correctly either. Crimping too much can cause a bulge. Crimping too little can leave a lip that is catching on something. The rounds should just freely fall into the cylinder all the way.

[Bayou52]

If all of the primer fails detonated with a second hit, attention turns to whether your hammer has sufficient spring pressure when it drops/hits.......

Worth a consideration.......

Bayou52

[LUBEDUDE]

If all of the primer fails detonated with a second hit, attention turns to whether your hammer has sufficient spring pressure when it drops/hits.......

Worth a consideration.......

Bayou52

And/or the firing pin is fully seating your primers on the first hit while at the same time not hitting hard enough/deep enough because the primer is moving forward as it is being "detonated".

Test those failed rounds (second hitters) in another gun. If they fire it may be as Bayou52 said and points to hammer Spring.

[ReloaderFred]

Your primers should be seated below flush. I aim for -.004" below flush for my primer seating. This ensures the anvil is set into the primer pellet and that the firing pin strike will create enough indent in the primer cup to crush the primer pellet on the anvil.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Jackpine]

I called Dillon a couple of weeks ago because I was having problems with a small percentage of primers not fully seating. The Dillon rep told me they have had a lot of issues in the past year with Winchester primers. I have also had a couple of weak primers out of the last few thousand and found one primer without an anvil.

Jackpine

[Sensai]

All of the above causes are possible, but (there's always one) since you're having problems seating your rounds fully into the chamber, I'll go with cartridge dimensional problems. The rimmed cartridge should be head spacing on the rim. There should be no resistance to forward movement into the chamber until the rim contacts the cylinder. The problem may be a crimping bulge, as noted above; or it may be a cartridge length problem caused by not seating the boolits deeply enough. The excessive crimp is easy to remedy. Be careful with the boolits seating depth changes, though. Just my 2 cents worth, and worth about what you paid for it!:mrgreen:

[Char-Gar]

OK, time to ask the hive
I believe my problem to be reloading related but I thought to go here first.
I went to the range today and I had 10 primers (out of 64) that would not go off; they all did on a second hit. Taurus 85, 38 spl, Win SPP's, mostly Starline cases, Lee cast 105 gr SWC, titegroup. Sized to .358."

How do I tell a soft hammer hit from a hard primer? with 10 primer fails I would assume it is something w my gun or my reloading. I did notice that the finished rounds struggled to get through my cartridge gauge. they were a little tough going in the cylinder chambers as well, I had to apply a little persuasion to get them in (???).
I am the beginning of my investigation... can anyone offer any direction on this one?
thanks
Billyboy

If I took time to add the rounds all up over my 55 years of reloading for handguns I would come up with at least a million rounds. I have used Winchester, Federal, Remington and CCI primers. In all of those years and all those round, I could count the number of bad primers on the fingers of one hand.

Therefore, it is my opinion, based on the above experience, if a fresh American primer fails to fire, it is the fault of the revolver or the handloading and not the primer.

[mdi]

Here's a good test; run 20 factory rounds through your gun. Did all fire? Run 20 reloads through you gun. Did they all fire? 98% of primer failures for newer reloaders is from improperly seated primers. For now ferget any "below flush measurements" and just make sure all primers are seated all the way to the bottom of the pocket, then give them a touch more pressure. In 30 years of reloading I have had less than half dozen "bad" primers and none of my stock guns failed to ignite any manufacturer's primers. "Seconf Hit Ignition" tells me the first hit seated the primer and the second hit ignited it...

[gwpercle]

Fairly common problem, easy fix(s)
1.) Seat the primer until it bottoms out in the pocket. Don't worry how deep it is, don't have to measure it. I use a hand priming tool and prime off press for this very reason.
The first hit seats the primer fully, that's why the second hit fires it. I don't measure the depth, as long as the primer is not sticking up above the base and is fully seated into the pocket it is proper.

2.) The loaded case has to slip into the chamber, if it doesn't, the first hit will drive it in and then the second will fire it. Resize a few cases and see if they fit, if they do it's not the sizer.
Next, look at the crimp, too much crimp will case a case to bulge, this makes it hard or impossible to chamber. Load a few with boolits and your crimp, see if they fit. If They don't, back off the crimp die and try again.

So look at primer seating and case size first, usually one or the other will improve you loads.

[williamwaco]

I too suspect cartridge fit problems but a different cause.

I suspect either a dirty chamber or some powder/lube residue under the extractor star.

Also check for a ring of fouling around the inside of each chamber at the mouth of the cartridge case.

Also, mark your cylinder where the failure occurred and see if one or two cylinders are causing the trouble.

[jeepyj]

I called Dillon a couple of weeks ago because I was having problems with a small percentage of primers not fully seating. The Dillon rep told me they have had a lot of issues in the past year with Winchester primers. I have also had a couple of weak primers out of the last few thousand and found one primer without an anvil.

Jackpine
Wow I thought it was me with the Winchester primers in my Dillon. I'm glad to hear that I wasn't the only one. I switched to S&B and the 650 clicks them off like nothing. I also noticed that the Winchester primers are stubborn running through my Franklin arsenal vibraprime. To the original post I definitely would make notice to see if your primers are seated fully I've had this happen as well as one of my Smiths had a weak hammer spring.
jeepyj

[Motor]

All good replies I just want to add personal experience. I used to CC a Taurus model 85. A plain blue steel model. I found that sweat had worked it's way under the grips and caused a fairly good rust problem.

So maybe a grip removal, cleaning and lubing should also be on your list.

Motor

[mdi]

I am not anti-progressive press, but this is one situation that keeps me using my ram prime on my turret press.

[soldierbilly1]

OK problem solved! Short version!
I used my RCBS hand squeezer and seated those primers down on about 40 rounds and they all went bang.
Using same cases, I tried to prime using primer arm on my Lee Turret and still could not seat them in their pockets! Using additional brass, I used my Hornady pocket reamer, and I was able to prime on my Lee Turret press! All went down well as per my "go No go" gauge. (???)
OK, I give up, why do my primer pockets need to be reamed out? I have Win and StarLine brass, 38 special. Win primers.
What say you?
Billboy

[Shooter6br]

Winchester primers are hard. My Smiths have occasional FTF on first strike.Feds no problem

[fourarmed]

Revolvers that have been tuned for DA competition use often will fail to ignite any but Federal primers. For the same reason, Federal primers are the most likely to seat fully in Dillon presses.

[marshhawk]

Second that on Federal primers, I have a couple of revolvers that once in a while will not fire first strike with Win or CCI, with Federal primers no problem, so that is now the only primer I buy and load for my wheel guns!
Marshhawk

[David2011]

Years ago I put a set of Bullseye springs in a Colt Trooper Mk III. That turned it into a Federal primer only gun. Eventually it got a new Wolff mainspring that is still lighter than the original factory spring but heavier than the Bullseye. It reliably ignites all primers now.

David

[youngmman]

I always prime as a separate operation using the RCBS Bench top priming tool. It gives a good feel for the primer being fully seated and it operates pretty fast. Second, some people lighten the hammer main spring to lighten the weight of pull. I have also tried this in the past and it has always caused problems.

Just to show how I never learn, I replaced the hammer spring in a new Loaded SA .45 ACP from the standard 23lb to a 19LB and it was awful. After changing back to the standard I have had no problems at all.

[soldierbilly1]

Follow Up:
Just for grins, I ran the cartridge "rocker" test (AKA wobble test) to test for high primers on my finished 500 rounds of "match ammo." I culled a total of 40 of them, ran them in my Beretta 92, all went bang. Hah!
I realize than 40 is not a robust, statistical sampling, I get that. There is also a safety issue.

In any case, I am back to my RCBS lemon squeezer for priming! 0.003-0.004" down is a beautiful thing!
bill boy

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Bill,

It sounds like you need to take your brass, your primers and the primer seater for your press and do some measuring/checking. I suspect some variability in either your brass primer pocket dimensions or variability in the batch of primers you have. I've heard, but have not confirmed, Winchester has sold some made overseas primers in their labels, but this may merely be an internet rumor. Measuring with a caliper will identify the issue to some extent.

Also, you may need to tune the ram prime on your turret a bit to insure proper seating depth. Inspection may reveal a machine burr or other issue preventing the ram prime from doing it's job.

Just a couple of thoughts,

Dave