Trail Boss in the .30-30 and .44-40

[w30wcf]

I finally found some Trail Boss powder. I spoke to Hodgdon and they gave me a distributor in the NE who received some of the first lot. The distributor gave me the names of a few of the gunshops in PA that received some.....success!

Anyway, I loaded some cartridges for my .30-30 and .44 W.C.F. As it turned out, it gave good groups in the .30-30 but, unfortunately, not in the .44-40.

.30-30.............
Hodgdon recommends 9.0 grs. with a 160 cast bullet giving 1,195 f.p.s. @ 29,100 CUP. I used this load under a 158 gr. cast bullet. 5 Rounds grouped into 1" @ 50 yards and clocked in at 1,253 f.p.s. 9.0 grs. TB fills about 90% of the case.

Since I shoot a fair amount of .30-30 "Short Range" loads, I also wanted to give TB a try in that application. I started with 5.5 grs. then went to 6.0 grs. to get into the 1,100 to 1,200 f.p.s. range. 6.0 grs. fills about 60% of the case.

I compared positioning the powder to the back of the case vs. feeding from the magazine. Other favorite "Short Range" powders 231, 4756, Unique, Universal will group into two different spots in that test, usually about 1 1/2" - 2" apart. Not so with Trail Boss. It pushed the 125 gr cast bullets into the same group wether the powder was positioned to the back of the case or not.

I decided to try 2 different pistol primers with the 6.0 gr. load. I did use both the WLP and CCI 200 large rifle primer and there was only 1 f.p.s. difference between them. Accuracy was about the same with both.

125 gr. cast bullet w.w./ 2% tin
6.0 TB / WLP 1,139 f.p.s. 5 shot 3/4" group @ 50 yards
6.0 TB / 155 1,133 f.p.s. 10 shot 1 1/4" group @ 50 yards


.44-40............
After my experience with TB in the .30-30, I was expecting good things from my '73 .44-40. But alas, it was not to be.

Hodgdon's recommended load is 6.5 grs. with a 200 gr. cast bullet for 826 f.p.s. @ 11,900 C.U.P. My normal loads using Blue Dot, 2400, or 4227, and will group into 1 1/2"- 2" @ 50 yards if I do my part.

Not so with TB. I tried 4 different primers and the best it would do was a 5" group. Three of the 5 shots would normally be inside of 3" but in every case, the other 2 shots would open the group up into the 5"+ range. Velocity was just under 1,000 f.p.s.

I may try going up .5 gr and see what happens. That would be the most I would care to try in the '73.

w30wcf

[Cherokee]

Thanks for the info on Trail Boss in 30-30. I want to try that myself but have yet to find the powder.

[44 WCF]

I had similar experience with the 44-40 with 92-2-6 alloy. Tried some 20:1 and problems went away in my S&W and the Marlin.

[w30wcf]

44 WCF,
THank you for your information. I'll have to try some softer bullets such as you suggested with Trail Boss. The alloy that has worked the best of the few that I have tried with other smokeless powders is w.w. + 2% tin.

What sort of groups did you get with your 20:1 alloy?

Trail Boss has been interesting to work with and it does the job for which it was design.... cowboy action shooting...... but unfortunately, based on Hodgdon's data, Trail Boss will not give anywhere original .44 W.C.F. ballistics (1,245 f.p.s.) without exceeding the pressure limit for a '73 by a fair amount.

MAYBE, sometime in the future there will be a Trail Boss II that will burn more slowly so that it will give original b.p. ballistics with a case full of powder at similar pressure.

Until then, RL7 will have to do or, come to think of it, I do have a small quantity of old SR80 on hand that will also perform that function.

w30wcf

aka w44wcf

[fiberoptik]

I understand that Trail Boss is bigger size grain & a slow burner, but if it's in cans less than about 9 ounces & costs more than a pound of most powders, then isn't it kinda expensive for use in guns that can be fed with something else?? :???:

[David R]

Price is what kept me from trying it. Pay as much for a half pound as you would a whole pound of SR4759? No way.

[Bret4207]

Yowser! You only get half a can? Still it might be just the thing for some applications. What the powder companies really need to delevope is a smokeless, posistion in-sensitive, fairly bulky blackpowder equivilent. The old "bulk" shotgun powders used to do this and I thnk Kings "Semi-smokeless" had the same function. Sure would be nice.

[cropcirclewalker]

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/index.html

Lists 9 oz. Trail Boss for $9.65 which works out to be $1.072 per oz., $17.16 per pound. Yes, they had it in stock, I bought a jug less than a month ago. It helps to have a daughter living in Winfield. Saves on the hazmat fees.

Seems like I paid like 18 bucks for a pound of 4895 (maybe 4227) last time at Bass Pro Shop.

Yes, Most powders are cheaper at Powder Valley than they are at the store front stores, so the savings are less. (4227 is $16.30 per pound)

My interest in Trail Boss is that a double charge is very unlikely. I get pretty tired of looking down into the cases with a flashlight at those puny charges of bullseye.

I have had good luck with 13.1 grains of Trail Boss with the Lyman 311291 (sized at .309) in .30-06 in my sporterized '03 Springfield. 1310 fps.

YMMV.

edited because I sized at .309, not .311.

[drinks]

I really cannot see a use for the TB, I have been using Herco and PB for 1200-1300fps cast and jacketed bullets in the .44-40 for over 35 years, have had good results with cast bullets that were sized at least a small amount over groove diameter.

[Savvy Jack]

I use Trail Boss specifically for CAS and plinking but the other day I decided...what the heck, lets go for it...and the results shocked me.

44-40, open sights
6.4gr of Trail Boss in an Uberti 73 @ 265 yards as well as a revolver. 73' starts at the 4:22 mark

Just ignore the misspelled words!!

https://youtu.be/Y0rpQsSVUH8?t=263

[Froogal]

I have loaded Trail Boss in .38s and .357s and it worked good. I have experimented with it in .45 Colt, but then went with Unique instead. I am now getting ready to try the Trail Boss again in the .45s. The Unique seems to recoil a bit more than what I like.

[quilbilly]

My experience with TB in my 30/30 has been that anything less than 80% fill gives severe variances in velocity. Right now I am loading my 130's (HPGC) with about 85% load density and am getting fine accuracy plus good performance on coyotes out to however far I can aim that day with the iron sights. My MV is around 1400 fps and recoil is negligible. I have had similar velocity variances below 80% load density with other calibers as well.

[Savvy Jack]

Great updates fellas!!!

[Froogal]

Well, I got 50 rounds of the .45 Colt loaded up with Trail Boss, and now it is raining. Again.

[Savvy Jack]

Well, I got 50 rounds of the .45 Colt loaded up with Trail Boss, and now it is raining. Again.

oh wow, sounds like me. It has been raining nearly every time I went to the range since October!!! Only the past two weekends have been dry

[WehrmannsGeweher]

Tb is wonderful. I use it a lot. Always works and shoots well with no chance of dbl chgs.

[FergusonTO35]

I understand that Trail Boss is bigger size grain & a slow burner, but if it's in cans less than about 9 ounces & costs more than a pound of most powders, then isn't it kinda expensive for use in guns that can be fed with something else?? :???:

Plus, it produces an awful lot of pressure for the velocity. Bulky, light weight for volume powders tend to hang up in my measure. SR4759 will not cooperate with my RCBS Uniflow, I can only imagine how bad Trail Boss would be.

[Froogal]

Plus, it produces an awful lot of pressure for the velocity. Bulky, light weight for volume powders tend to hang up in my measure. SR4759 will not cooperate with my RCBS Uniflow, I can only imagine how bad Trail Boss would be.

Trail Boss does require a bit of "technique" to get it to drop from the powder measure, but once you learn that technique it is not a problem. 6 grains of Trail Boss is equal to 9 grains of Unique, but Trail Boss is more pleasant to shoot.

[Texas by God]

Personally I have no use for a bulky expensive powder but cheers to those who do.

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[ReloaderFred]

In the fourteen years since this thread was started, there has been a lot of successful use of TrailBoss powder, in both rifle and handgun loads. It's a niche powder, and it fills that niche quite well, and there is a lot more data available now than there was when the thread began.

Locally, the price for the 9 0z. bottle of TrailBoss works out to about the same average price of any other handgun powder when priced per pound. That may vary with the individual dealer, since they're free to set their own pricing on their products.

It also meters quite well if you use the rifle insert on those powder measures that have both rifle and pistol inserts. I've had good success metering it through a Hornady LnL measure with the rifle insert, and a Redding powder measure. I haven't had the need to try it through any of my other powder measures, so I can't speak to their efficiency with TrailBoss.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Froogal]

In the fourteen years since this thread was started, there has been a lot of successful use of TrailBoss powder, in both rifle and handgun loads. It's a niche powder, and it fills that niche quite well, and there is a lot more data available now than there was when the thread began.

Locally, the price for the 9 0z. bottle of TrailBoss works out to about the same average price of any other handgun powder when priced per pound. That may vary with the individual dealer, since they're free to set their own pricing on their products.

It also meters quite well if you use the rifle insert on those powder measures that have both rifle and pistol inserts. I've had good success metering it through a Hornady LnL measure with the rifle insert, and a Redding powder measure. I haven't had the need to try it through any of my other powder measures, so I can't speak to their efficiency with TrailBoss.

Hope this helps.

Fred

I use the Lee perfect powder measure. The powder drops into the funnel which is placed in the Lee mouth expansion die. Trail Boss WILL hang up in that funnel, but a couple of thumps with my finger on the funnel shakes it loose. Same as I do for any other type of powder. Leave nothing to chance.

[Savvy Jack]

Personally I have no use for a bulky expensive powder but cheers to those who do.

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An interesting reply...
Not so expensive compared to a blown up gun due to either an over charge or an under charge.

https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/283467-blown-guns-during-sass-matches/

[FergusonTO35]

If, the price was the same per ounce locally I probably would give TB a try. Unfortunately a 9 ounce can always costs the same as a 14 or 16 ounce can of other powders.

[Savvy Jack]

If, the price was the same per ounce locally I probably would give TB a try. Unfortunately a 9 ounce can always costs the same as a 14 or 16 ounce can of other powders.

It is a light fluffy powder. Volume!!

[Savvy Jack]

Check my math, I suck at math!

Approx
500 bullets - $65
100 cases - $21
1,000 primers - $35
1lb Powder - 30.00 Unique

8gr

= $41 per 100 cartridges

6gr
= $40 per 100 cartridges


Approx
500 bullets - $65
100 cases - $21
1,000 primers - $35
1lb Powder - 30.00 X 2 Trail Boss

6.4gr

= $43 per 100 cartridges


I cast my own lead and my brass has been long paid for itself

Approx
500 bullets - $0
100 cases - $0
1,000 primers - $35
1lb Powder - 30.00 X 2 Trail Boss

= $9 per 100 cartridges

Approx
500 bullets - $0
100 cases - $0
1,000 primers - $35
1lb Powder - 30.00 Unique

8gr

= $7 per 100 cartridges

6gr
= $6 per 100 cartridges

Two matches per month for one year
$9 x 2 x 12 = $216 per year CAS
$6 x 2 x 12 =$144 per year CAS

$72 a year savings. Cost of a blown gun, $400
5.5 years to equal the cost of another gun
13,200 chances for an under or over charge.
or
11 years if only one match per month
26,400 chances for an under or over charge.

Or

My brain hurts and I am not even gonna double check!!

[Texas by God]

I believe trail boss came about as a result of sass Shooters trying to reload ammo as fast as they shoot! They had to dumb down gunpowder I guess. With the piddling amount of ammunition I load, I can't see the benefit. I'll check each powder charge with a flashlight. Like I always have.

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[Hootmix]

I shoot TB in my 40/60 chappie & 44/40 Rossie " so far so good " . I use a LEE ( cheapest they make ) powder measure no hang- ups,, dump a load , raise the handle ,, thump the glass ( old habit ) w/ middle finger ,, repeat.

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[Savvy Jack]

I believe trail boss came about as a result of sass Shooters trying to reload ammo as fast as they shoot! They had to dumb down gunpowder I guess. With the piddling amount of ammunition I load, I can't see the benefit. I'll check each powder charge with a flashlight. Like I always have.

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LOL, now that's funny right there!!!!!

I am lead to believe that it was manufactured for Harpoon cannons but........

[john.k]

i have never bought the small can,just the 4lb plastic jug..............here it works out way cheaper than any other smokeless,even other ADI powders,and a lot cheaper than black.............One benefit Ive noticed is bullets slug up same as blackpowder................Ive read all the waffle about fast burn,high pressure..............which is precisely what the powder is.........fast burn,fast pressure rise same as BP.............stated in the manufacturers instructions its for straight sided BP type cases.......where it does well............one local expert even claims it smells foul......actually the **** in his secret lube burning.

[Texas by God]

A true 3F equivalent smokeless powder would be useful wouldn't it?

[FergusonTO35]

A true 3F equivalent smokeless powder would be useful wouldn't it?

I would be on that like yesterday, 'specially if it could be used in muzzleloaders. I weigh all my rifle charges, given I usually only shoot a few hundred a year. For someone loading large capacity rifle cartridges en masse, a bulky and impossible to overcharge powder makes good sense.

[Savvy Jack]

A true 3F equivalent smokeless powder would be useful wouldn't it?

I would love to find some. Too bad I can't find some Sharpshooter or SR80 powder like John Kort Did. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?28127-SR-80-vs-SR-4759&p=313228&viewfull=1#post313228

SR80 was also a "bulk" powder and a direct replacement...much like Sharpshooter....and unlike Dupont #2, created lower pressures than Black Powder. For the longest time I could not understand that, now I do because my black powder testings in early cases produce over 14,000psi with the best dense black powder I know of...Swiss FFG. Don't tell me there is better BP because then I would have to go buy some and shoot more!!! Dupont #2 must have produced even higher pressures and is why Winchester red label 1894 smokeless cartridge boxes warned not for use in pistols. Dupont #2 did not have the deterrent agent. There were even warnings not to have old loaded rounds lying around because the very fine powder dust could accumulate in the primer and create.....yes.....even higher pressures!!!

To show my ignorance, I can not find any pressure data before 1926 SAAMI's 13,000cup, 2015's 11,000psi and Winchester's High Velocity 22,000cup as well as Lyman's 49th Group II rifles, 8gr - 21,900cup for Red Dot loads that only produce 1,290fps.