How safe is a Remington Rolling Block 1901 in 7mm Mauser

[terryt]

Hi:

I was looking at a Remington Rolling Block Model1901 in 7mm Mauser today at the LGS.

It is in excellent shape.

I have been told it is not safe to shot smokeless powder loads in these guns. Not even if you keep pressure down.
I was told that it was do to headspacing because the chambers in RB's are too short.

I have know several people who have them and none of them have ever had any trouble.

I want to buy the gun and would like to know what I am getting into.

Thanks,

Terryt

[Pavogrande]

I have heard they can have excess headspace --
I had one many moons ago but at that time 7x57 was really not very obtainable
so cases were made from GI 06 brass which was about $2-3 per hundred --
Since the cases were formed to fit the chamber headspace was not an issue -
You can do the same, make up a moderate load, seat the bullet to engage the rifling and
you have a fire formed case -- neck size and reload --
my ha-penny

[Ben]

terryt :

because the chambers in RB's are too short.


If the chamber was too short the breech would not close on a loaded round.
If the chamber is too deep, then you'd have excessive headspace.

[Nobade]

Just like Pavogrande says - make the brass to fit the chamber and just close. Don't use commercial 7X57 brass unless you fireform it with COW first. Shoot reasonable cast boolit loads in it, and it'll give you great service for many years.

-Nobade

[Mk42gunner]

How safe are they? I don't know for sure. I have read that the chamber dimensions for the 7x57 changed sometime between when Remington made these rifles and when SAAMI came into existence.

If I had one, I would go the fireform and cast boolit load route.

Robert

[John Taylor]

In 1897 the #5 Remington came out for smokeless powder and many were chambered in 7X57. The cartridge was re-designed in 1913 with a spire point bullet that was a little lighter and much faster. I don't have anything that shows the pressure of the early round but the later factory loads are a bit warm for the rolling block. Reloads should be kept down to about 42,000 psi to be on the safe side, modern 7x57 is loaded to 51,000. I'm not saying you will blow one up with factory loads but some have head space issues and the brass will not last.

[Outpost75]

I had one of these as a kid back in the 1960s, and we had buckets of old US Ctg. Co. and Remington-UMC FMJ ammo with cracked necks which we got cheap. Some of the ammo went bang, and what didn't we pulled the bullets and salvaged the powder and formed new brass from .30-'06, or 8mm Mauser. Headspace on all the ones we tried was about 0.010 to 0.020 way too loose and you would get head separations unless you left enough of the 8mm neck as a false shoulder for crush-up to headspace. We had best luck cutting off '06 brass and setting up the die so that rounds chambered just a bit snug, then when setting up to reload we pinched a 0.010 shim between the shell holder and die body at the top of the stroke to avoid setting the shoulder back.

On guns we had chamber necks were waaaaay loose and we never reamed case necks, but your mileage may vary.
We always used .30-30 data in the 7mm with 170-175-grain bullets, and never got into any trouble. The old guns shot better at 200 and 300 yards on the old Army A target than we could.

[Bob Busetti]

Had a 1910 model. Made cases to fit chamber. It shot Remington 140 gr. factory loads very well.

[koger]

I guess I just got lucky, had one in pristine condition, shot factory, Kynock surplus, all shot great and no issues!

[EDG]

A friend of mine had one and the chamber looked more like a 7X57 Ackley Improved.
His first round blew the case head, escaping gas blew the hammer back to full cock and the breech block opened leaving the case about halfway out of the chamber. The primer was stuck on the end of the firing pin. He made cases out of .270 brass that he could barely get the rolling block to close on. He had no further problems with it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

[QUOTE=Outpost75;3392900]I had one of these as a kid back in the 1960s, and we had buckets of old US Ctg. Co. and Remington-UMC FMJ ammo with cracked necks which we got cheap. Some of the ammo went bang, and what didn't we pulled the bullets and salvaged the powder and formed new brass from .30-'06, or 8mm Mauser. Headspace on all the ones we tried was about 0.010 to 0.020 way too loose and you would get head separations unless you left enough of the 8mm neck as a false shoulder for crush-up to headspace. We had best luck cutting off '06 brass and setting up the die so that rounds chambered just a bit snug, then when setting up to reload we pinched a 0.010 shim between the shell holder and die body at the top of the stroke to avoid setting the shoulder back.

On guns we had chamber necks were waaaaay loose and we never reamed case necks, but your mileage may vary.
We always used .30-30 data in the 7mm with 170-175-grain bullets, and never got into any trouble. The old guns shot better at 200 and 300 yards on the old Army A target than we could.[/UOTE]

This is about what I have heard. I would agree with John Taylor on pressure limitations, but I don't believe it need be quite as limited as .30-30 loads in that larger case. It certainly wasn't intended for anything but smokeless.

EDG describes a source of accident which doesn't apply to most actions, with gas escape fro the primer unlocking the action. The fit of firing-pin to its hole might have been responsible, and should always be checked.

[shooter93]

Somewhere I have an article written on the Rolling block rifles and it mentions that there was a 7mm Spanish caliber that was slightly different from the standard 7x57 round. These guns...and I don't remember how many were produced....always "appear" to have a headspace problem when standard 7x57 ammo was fired in them. Once fired they were then just neck sized or dies made and no further problems were experienced. I'll try and find the article when I have a chance as it is one of those interesting stories that show up about the older guns.

[John Taylor]

Somewhere I have an article written on the Rolling block rifles and it mentions that there was a 7mm Spanish caliber that was slightly different from the standard 7x57 round. These guns...and I don't remember how many were produced....always "appear" to have a headspace problem when standard 7x57 ammo was fired in them. Once fired they were then just neck sized or dies made and no further problems were experienced. I'll try and find the article when I have a chance as it is one of those interesting stories that show up about the older guns.
The Spanish were using Mauser rifles, http://www.spanamwar.com/spanishmauser.htm

[atr]

I have a #5 RRB in 7x57 Mauser and have shot both jacketed and cast with it. I fire form the brass with the cast loads and use that brass for the jacketed rounds. Truth be told I don't shoot a lot of jacketed, but never had a problem when I did.
Make sure you wear glasses when shooting the RRB because if for any reason gas escapes it will do so through the firing pin hole in the breach block, and you will get it in your face.

and yes my icon picture is of my #5

[LWSTARKS]

I have one and just shoot cast in it. I've shot jacketed, but it just seemed to be too hot (signs on the empty) plus I get better accuracy from the cast.

[hickstick_10]

I have one of those rifles, shot plenty of federal 175 grain loads out of it, with no issue.
But thats just me and my gun.

[EDG]

I have read these tales also. I have an all original mint 1895 Chilean Mauser and the cartridge is the same as the modern round.


Somewhere I have an article written on the Rolling block rifles and it mentions that there was a 7mm Spanish caliber that was slightly different from the standard 7x57 round. These guns...and I don't remember how many were produced....always "appear" to have a headspace problem when standard 7x57 ammo was fired in them. Once fired they were then just neck sized or dies made and no further problems were experienced. I'll try and find the article when I have a chance as it is one of those interesting stories that show up about the older guns.

[Ed in North Texas]

I have read these tales also. I have an all original mint 1895 Chilean Mauser and the cartridge is the same as the modern round.

There are lots of theories, and outright dreams, about the 7mm Rollers. I use .270 brass to form my cases (because I don't have a .270 - O'Connor is rolling over about now) so the headstamp is "unique" and differentiated from the brass for my Brazilian 1908.

I suspect, with no proof whatsoever, that Remington cut these military contract rifles with slightly larger chambers because of the lesser extraction capability of the rolling block action compared to the Mauser bolt guns. The Rolling Block allowed Latin American countries with smaller treasuries to use the 7x57 cartridge, so popular with the Spanish speaking world, without the expense required to obtain Mauser design bolt guns.

Or I'm completely mistaken. Take your pick.

[superc]

Although it sounds silly, since Remington had by then switched to a steel appropriate for smokeless powder, several countries issued the cartridge only in a black powder variant. I read to mean a doubt existed as to strength even back then.

[John Taylor]

Run into the same types of stories about the old Martini. Many were converted to 303 British but were loaded with black or Cordite. It is not safe to fire modern smokeless ammo through the old Martini in 303. Some of the Remingtons were chambered in 30-03 which is the same size cartridge as the 30-06. I have been told that they were not safe but have never seen one chambered in that round. Found a list of chambers. Some are for the #1 and some for the #5.
.58 Berdan
.50-70
.50-45 Carbine
12.7×45mmR Pontificio
12.17×42 mm RF
12.17×44mmR
.45-70
.43 Spanish
.43 Egyptian
10.15×61mmR
8×58mmR
8×50mmR
.303 British
7.65×53mm Argentine
.30-40 Krag
7.62×54mmR
.30 Remington
7×57mm Mauser
6.5mm Daudeteau No. 12
.236 Remington
11 mm Danish

Various Target/Sporting/Hunting Calibers

[Geezer in NH]

It is fine with factory level 45K pressure rounds it was made for them in fact. Total bunk not made for smokeless how much did you get offered for it after they told you that? It is the strongest Rolling block action.

Don't expect many loads from each case at full pressure but cast may get many.

[paul edward]

I have been shooting my 7mm RRB#5 since 1972 with commercial US sporting ammo as well as reloads and have had no problems. Like many examples I have seen, the chamber on my #5 is generous. Even though I neck size my cases, they need to be examined before every reloading for incipient head separation (use a piece of wire to feel inside the case for the shallow depression that indicates this case goes in the scrap bin).

I make 7mm cases from range pickup 270 by annealing, forming and trimming. When forming, I omit the expander/decapper rod and use a tubing cutter to shorten the case neck before trimming in a Wilson trimmer. For reloading data, I use the starting loads from manuals and reduce them by 10%. The paper targets and tin cans have never noticed the difference.

169423

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Martini actions came from a variety of makers, besides the British military and Belgian ones which are mostly good. Even some of the Afghan ones were well made, in the pre-souvenir days when they were sold for practical use by people with a robust idea of product liability. But there are poor actions around, and even good ones could have been converted by anyone. You ought to study pictures of the markings before buying one, for these were faked - usually badly, but no doubt sometimes fairly well.

I don't believe any of the conversions for the British military were made in the brief interval when use of black powder, an interim measure for the Lee-Metford bolt-action, was expected. An official military .303 conversion (or a British proved commercial equivalent) which hasn't had parts substituted, should be safe with cordite cartridges and those generated at least the pressure of modern smokeless commercial loads. Certainly nobody needs to handload beyond those limits.

What could a casual converter do wrong? The original black powder breechblock had a large diameter firing-pin, which even worse than "large" in my opinion, may have become a loose fit in its hole. The Martini copes better than many rifles with ruptured primers, but I wouldn't want to risk it. The firing-pin hole can be bushed or welded and redrilled, and some of the early conversions had a strip of harder steel let into the block face. Any of these things can be done badly. More often a replacement .303 breechblock was fitted. I don't have one handy to examine, but besides the smaller hole, the difference may have been thicker metal in the block face, and improved metallurgy. I don't think actual danger was reported from the use of the .577/.450 block for .303, but rather deformation which produced hard opening of the rifle. I've seen official conversions which had worn out their barrels without other problems.

[RPRNY]

Provided it is in good working order, perfectly safe.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Oh, and one more thing that casual converter could do wrong, since I hope a safety issue doesn't count as too much off topic. I have seen a well-made Belgian Martini in which someone had clamped the barrel in a vice (apparently perfectly well protected) and stuck a wood or metal bar through the action to unscrew it. There was an almost invisible crack at the top left of the left action side.

[pworley1]

I only shoot cast in mine. I have never had a problem.

[leadman]

P.O. Ackley chambered some belted magnum cartridges in the RBs as tests to see how strong they were. He was surprised by the results. I am fairly certain he did not have his eyeball directly in line with the chamber though!
I have 3 RBs and even though one is a modern replica I treat it gently.
I have read many times that the 7X57 was changed in dimensions about the time the Spaniards went to the 1893 Mauser. Tthere was an experimental 1892 Mauser the Spaniards tested in 7.65X53 and 7X57. There was even a 7X53 cartridge used by the Boers that had dimensions to the shoulder the same as the 7X57 but had a short neck. Supposedly this was 7.65X53 reformed to 7mm. There were issues with this ammo.
Keep your loads on the low side as the steel is old now and you, and it, should be happy.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There were breech explosions with that ammunition in the Boer service, which they attributed to the short neck allowing the bullet jacket to bulge before engaging with the rifling. But I'm not so sure.

Deneys Reitz served as a seventeen-year-old Boer guerilla, and in his book describes killing some eight or ten British soldiers, though in the big battles it was probably much more. In the First World War he was an extremely popular colonel of the First Battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers in France, and later a pro-Union government minister under General Smuts. He tells how the Boer government took over the Pretoria explosives factory from its British management and loaded ammunition there. A black employee told him of his dismay at the habits, such as smoking on the job, of the new Italian employees. A large explosion soon occurred. So there is no telling what, besides neck length, may have been wrong with those cartridges.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have never really liked the idea of an action which resists pressure in a direction different from that from which it comes. Still, Ackley's discoveries as to the strength of the rolling-block don't surprise me. There are two factors, though, in action failures. One is how much it takes to make it fail, and the other is what happens when it does. I think the rolling-block could be much worse than a bolt action with a safety lug, for the latter.

[Ed in North Texas]

One alleged reason for the 7mm Kort (short) Boer cartridges blowing actions was a fairly common practice of greasing the jacketed bullets. Pretty soon there was grease in the chamber and bore and excessive pressure. Don't know if that is true, or not. But factory records supposedly exist which show that due to a shortage of 7x57mm ammo to fill an order from the Boers, 7.65x53mm Mauser cartridge cases were used to fill a rush order by Lowe (or DWM maybe by that time).

John,

You can add 8mm Lebel to that list of calibers chambered in Remington RBs. IIRC either 13,000 or 15,000 were ordered in WW I by the French. Don't recollect that the entire order was completed, but it might have been.

[Nobade]

You can add 8mm Lebel to that list of calibers chambered in Remington RBs. IIRC either 13,000 or 15,000 were ordered in WW I by the French. Don't recollect that the entire order was completed, but it might have been.

There is one of those for sale at the LGS right now. Looks brand new, and he wants about $2500 for it. Pretty neat, but not for me!

-Nobade