Llama 1911

[kentuckyshooter]

Hi all. I have a stanless steal llama 1911 in 45acp that i got gifted to me. I did a google search and didnt come up with much besides they are Spanish made, not very expensive and the quality can be hit or miss. This one is in good shape and seems to be one of the good ones. Also what little i have shoot it shows it to be quite accrate. Just wandering if any one here knows more about them and can help me id the model as most i found online seem to be blued

[salvadore]

Are you sure it's stainless?

[kentuckyshooter]

Looks like it to me. I had read about a plating finish that was used on there guns. Ive had it down a few times for cleaning and i dont see any places that look like it might be a plating thats being wore to the base metal. This gun is in good shape though with minor where on it.

[fryboy]

They made several versionsblued,hard chromed and duo-toned that I know of,a few parts interchange,mags usually do,glad you got a good one,their coolest is their lil 380

[kentuckyshooter]

Do u know if there are only certin mags that will work with it or should it acept most 1911 mags for 45acp. I have a 7 round mag that came with it and was told they dont make the mag for this gun anymore. I would like to get at least 1 backup mag.

[JRPVT]

I also have a Llama 1911. It is also well made and accurate, and yes, all 1911 mags will fit it. Mine came new with a Colt marked mag. Almost all the parts will interchange except for the plunger holder between the slide stop and safety, it's screwed on, not riveted like a Colt. Dave

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I worked on quite a few of tem over the years, and currently own several. I never saw one that I would say was poor quality, but sometimes they left a little bit to be desired in the fitting and function department. Some had feeding/jamming problems, but I never ran across one that couldn't be fine tuned and made to be very reliable. I guess you know that they went out of business in 1992 and then started production again in 2000 as Fabrinor. They went out of business for good a few years later. For many years they made what appeared to be a 1911 copy, but no parts would interchange. Their last model was the Max-I, shown in the attached photo, and about 85% of the parts will interchange with a U.S. 1911; a concession to the American market, I believe, in an attempt to boost U.S. sales. If yours is not a Max-I and is one of the older models like the IX-A
you may find extra magazines hard to come by, so if you see one at a gun show or on e-bay buy it! The Max-I uses U.S. G.I. mags.

150191This is a Max-I model. The "furniture" (slide stop, safety, etc.) are factory nickel plated. This was a special run, and most of them are all blue. The very last of the breed were marketed under the name "Firestorm". If yours has a ventilated rib on top of the slide it is most likely a IX-A model and would date back to the 1960s and '70s. The grips on the pictured Max-I were made by the 4-S Grip Co. with a piece of fancy walnut I sent to them.

[JRPVT]

Had to get mine out of the safe to check...it's the Max-I. Looks just like the picture, same nickeled parts, too. Dave

[kentuckyshooter]

I have to retract my statement about it being stainless. Did some more diging and turns out to be a satin chrome. This is a 7 round mag model and from what i found to be in the X or IX family of production. Does any one know how to id these guns.

[kentuckyshooter]

Wish i could up load a picture but I dont have the gun with me and im prety much limited to a flip phone for internet acces at this time.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Identification can be somewhat confusing, because Llama didn't stamp the model number on most of them. Although I have worked on them and own several I don't claim to be a true expert in identifying them. Here's what I do know: The IX-A was their standard .45 ACP full-sized pistol from about 1960 until about 1988. It came standard with a ventilated rib and checkered wood grips with grip medallions. I bought my first one new from a dealer in 1969. Around 1988 they redesigned the gun slightly and replaced the ventilated rib with a solid rib, and added a loaded chamber indicator to the top of the slide that pushed up out of the rib and became visible when a round was in the chamber. They also went to smooth wood grips with medallions, and the blue was a higher polish. During the production of this version was when the satin nickel option became available, probably in the early 1990s, and I'll bet this is what you've got--a late IX-A. These were discontinued in 1996. The IX-C was a high capacity pistol that held 12 rounds, so if your pistol doesn't have this feature it's an IX-A. The last full-sized .45 was the Max-1 which can use U.S. G.I.-type magazines, so if your pistol doesn't function with the U.S. mags and is not a high capacity model that puts you back to an IX-A model produced in the 1990s. A loaded chamber indicator would pretty well identify it as such. The Spanish turned out some very good pistols, and the best makers were probably Astra, Star, and Llama in that order, but all are long out of business. Of the three, I think Llama is the least researched.

[MtGun44]

Calling it "a 1911" isn't very accurate, from what I know. Very similar, but many parts do not interchange, based on reports from others.

[kentuckyshooter]

Well after a lot of deep digging on the net i have come to the conclusion that it is a IX-A or possibly the B Model. I need to measure the barrel to be shure. The A will be 5 sometihing and the B will be 4 something inches. Also looked up the proofing marks and it appeirs to be a 1988 make. Dateing the gun helped rule out a lot of early models. The thing is my gun doesnt exactly fit most descriptions. It has rubber grips with the llama medalion, no ribs on the slide but the top of the slide is serated. And no loaded chamber indicator. Just a quick question though. Should this gun have a last round hold open?

[Char-Gar]

Stoger was the importer of these for many years. I had one of the 22 LR versions, but not a 45. I have handled an shot a few of the 45s. I would call them 1911 "Inspired" and not a true 1911. The 22 was sold down river after a few years and I could never come up with a reason to actually by a 45.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yes, the slide should stay open after the last round. If it doesn't, it's usually the fault of the magazine, which trips the hold open lever. I haven't personally seen one with no rib and wavy lines. They did put rubber grips on some of them. Did you determine the year of manufacture from a couple of letters under the grips?

[kentuckyshooter]

I went off of the proofing marks next to the triger guard. If memory serves they were H*2. This indicates the year it was approved by the proofing house.

[fryboy]

some time in the early 90's ( at least, possibly before ) part of the serial # was year of manufacture

[Doc1]

I have a thing for Spanish Pistols and own Astras, Stars and Llamas (as well as various other pistols, including and especially 1911s). USGI 1911 magazines will fit and operate in the Llama Max-1. The situation with the IX-A is a little more complicated. Some 1911 mags work fine and others don't. The issue is the magazine release/catch on the pistol. Its dimensions are just a hair too big to fit in the magazine catchment slots of some magazines. There are two ways to deal with this: The best way is to remove the mag release from the pistol and, using needle files or a Dremel tool, gently and slowly cut material away from the UNDERSIDE of the mag release until it fits. Check fitment frequently. The other way is to modify your magazines by gently removing material from the lower dimension of the catchment slot until it fits. Either way works, but if you modify the pistol's mag release, you can use it with any 1911 magazine. Obviously, if you employ the second method you will only be able to use the pistol with the modified magazines.

FWIW, I find that Astras, Llamas and Stars are of much better quality than is commonly believed in the US shooting fraternity. Some examples to require a bit of bench work to be 100% reliable, but they are inherently good firearms and the nonsense you will read about them being made of soft steel or "pot metal" are ridiculous. Yes, I actually saw one internet commando claim that Llamas were made of pot metal! Pot metal, for those who don't know better, is a cheap zinc alloy. Similarly, WWII-era M98 Spanish Mausers are beautiful, strong rifles. I have never seen a bad one. Interestingly, most American shooters will automatically assume that a WWII German Mauser is somehow better than a Spaniard, not realizing that a lot of German M98s were made of inferior material and with slave labor towards the end of the war.

Best regards
Doc

[kentuckyshooter]

Ok finaly got time to take here down and measure the barrel. It came to 5 1/8 inches at its longest point so it is definatly a IX-A model. Thanks for the info on the mags. I have a good dremal and when i get a mag or 2 for it ill fit the mag to the gun. I checked the mecanism for the last round hold open. The peice is rounded off to the point that the follower doesnt make contact. I was able to hold the slide back and manualy manipulate the follower into position to activate it and it did work properly then. Any sugestions on how to fix this issue?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, it's news to me that U.S. .45 mags can be fitted to work. I never tried it and so have no comment. But, if it does prove to be true, then the U.S. mag might trip the hold open lever, so we'll have to wait and see on that one. You can probably get some idea if it's going to work or not by inserting an unmodified mag into your pistol and eyeballing how close it comes. As for fixing the hold open lever, of course the easiest way to go is always to just replace the worn part with a good one. Probably not really easy to turn one up, but you might start with Bob's Gun Shop in Royal, Arkansas, then Numrich Gun Parts. They get used guns in and cannibalize them for parts on an on-going basis, and because they don't have it today doesn't necessarily mean that they won't have it next week or next month. You could also look under gun parts on GunBroker.com and on e-bay, and once again, keep checking back. As a last resort the worn part can probably be built up with a blob of weld and then filed to function. In that case it would be nice to have an original part to compare it with, but many gunsmiths are good fitters and can do the job.

[Doc1]

Der Gebirgsjager wrote: "Well, it's news to me that U.S. .45 mags can be fitted to work." Yes, they can. Interestingly, the Llama IX-A mags are just a hair too fat to work in USGI 1911s. 1911 Mags - after the mod I explained in my previous post - will fit (and work) in the Llama. They will feel very slightly loose, but this does not seem to impair function. Understand, gentlemen that I am not a gunsmith and none of my advice on the Llama mags has gone through thousands of rounds of torture testing. My comments are purely the result of my own bench work and casual shooting.

The slide hold-open device on the Llama and the 1911 is engaged by a tab on the magazine follower. There are countless different designs of followers on 1911 type magazines. In some cases, a slight bend of the follower where it meets the hold-open might fix the problem. As Der Gebirgsjager noted, building the contact area of the hold-open with a little weld and then reshaping it might work, though I will note that my own track record with building up small pieces with weld is rather poor. I have vaporized or melted as many small parts as I've managed to fix!

I think the simplest solution to your problem is to bring your pistol to a few gun shows and try a variety of 1911 magazines. You are sure to find some that will lock in to your Llama. I have scores of 1911 mags (both GI and aftermarket) and I would guess that around 25 to 30% of them fit my IX-A without modification. The only real problem with the magazine fitment is that the catchment slot on the 1911 mags is ever so slightly too small. As I explained before, opening up the vertical dimensions of a 1911 mag usually cures the problem. I want to emphasize (again) that you need to remove material from the BOTTOM of the slot and not the top. The top dimension controls the distance between the mag and the slide.

Best regards
Doc

[kentuckyshooter]

Hi all. Jurt wanted to report back. Found a kimber 7rd mag for under 20 bucks so i bought it to try. Was a direct fit. Got the old llama functioning flawlessly when i was doing some load testing at the range. Now i need to order a spring and follower to rebuild my old mag. Thank u everyone for all the heip and advice.