cast some zinc boolits today

[Magana559]

I've been thinking about casting zinc bullets for a long time now and today I finally did it.
125gr ideal mold and straight zinc wheel weight.
End product ended up being 75gr and sized to .356.
Originally I thought I would try it in 9mm first and then go to 38 special and finally end at 357 magnum. I decided not to waste any time and shoot straight for the moon and go with the torture test of an undersized bullet in a high velocity pistol round.

I loaded it to one grain below max of a 125 gr jacketed bullet with Titegroup. Loaded up six round and shot them into a pine stump, not checking for accuracy just yet, as of now it was just a safety/fouling test of the first six rounds.

I was actually quite impressed with the zinc bullets, nice round holes and stacked together at about 15 feet. As of now I'm very pleased with zinc. That could all change 100 rounds down the pipe!

Now for the down side.
I was using a spare lee ten pound bottom pour pot I had to melt the zinc. I soon discovered that the pot heats up enough to melt the zinc but not enough to pour the zinc out of the spout! No worries I used a dipper to ladle cast.
Second problem I had was mold getting pretty hot, I don't know how good it is to get a iron mold up to 750 degrees or so and then banging the sprue plate. Finally the force needed to bang off the sprue wasn't excessive but I couldn't cut it with my gloved hand, I used a good wack from a large screw driver handle.

So in conclusion, I would say casting with zinc is very possible but, one would need a pot that can heat up to 900° and have enough head pressure to properly fill the mold.

[Tenbender]

You could PC those bad boys and make them big enough to shoot in a 44 ??? lol :Fire:

Nice and shiny .

[gwpercle]

Those look darn good. I would think an iron mould would take the heat a lot better than an aluminum mould. Any lube on them and what did the barrel look like after shooting?

This might be a most revealing test. I've saved a few of the "zinkers" up....just in case lead is finally banned completely.
Gary

[Magana559]

Thanks guys, I fired a total of 25 zinc boolits and the barrel looks clean other than powder fouling.

I used zero lube, I've read that zinc was self lubricating so I just didn't lube them, the results speak for themselves!

[Magana559]

Here is a not so great picture of the barrel Pre dry patch. I haven't taken another picture of the barrel after but it's clean.

I'm trying to keep this very scientific so here are my results when shot into wood (ha ha)

As you can see some of the bullets are damaged because they have collided into each other...Accuracy is very nice at 15 feet. The others haven't expanded a bit and stayed on track.

So far so good

[bangerjim]

Zn is definitely castable. Many of the things we use on a daily basis is cast Zn. Pot metal is a version of a Zn alloy used for many things, then plated with brass and other metals to cut costs.

It should be cast in Fe-based molds, not Al due to heat.

Definitely lighter and possibly smaller. Even though some worry about keeping their pots below 750 or so to catch zinkers floating and not go into alloy with the lead, it takes a significantly higher temp to let the stuff flow and cast well! The normal pots we use will struggle to efficiently and correctly pour pure Zn when not in alloy with Pb/Sn/Sb.

Good luck on your future Zn casting!

banger

[runfiverun]

you can open the top of the lee pot and adjust the little strip in there to give you more heat.
I went from just barely getting mine to 625-f when new to over doing it and getting near 1000-f on full bore.
a little tin in the alloy could help your fill out and flow plus help lower the heat required to melt the alloy.
Tin loves Zinc.

[Electric88]

This is very interesting. I've got some zinc wheelweights in the garage, and I didn't want to throw them away. Thank you for posting this!

[fryboy]

r5r hit what i was thinking , some of the bands in the "as cast" foto look a wee bit rounded , much like a cold mold or a alloy that needs a little tin to help fill out ( other than that good looking castings ! )
i was a bit surprised that they didnt penetrate deeper into the wood tho , i discount this however because your " 1 grain below max load" is for a heavier projectile and lighter ones always need more powder to gain the same pressure/velocity

[njc110381]

Good point flyboy. Although another conflicting point would be that the lighter zinc bullets would still be the same size as the heavier lead versions from the same mold. Take care with the reduced case capacity when compared to the same weight of lead bullet as that will raise the pressures considerably...

[Magana559]

Zn is definitely castable. Many of the things we use on a daily basis is cast Zn. Pot metal is a version of a Zn alloy used for many things, then plated with brass and other metals to cut costs.

It should be cast in Fe-based molds, not Al due to heat.

Definitely lighter and possibly smaller. Even though some worry about keeping their pots below 750 or so to catch zinkers floating and not go into alloy with the lead, it takes a significantly higher temp to let the stuff flow and cast well! The normal pots we use will struggle to efficiently and correctly pour pure Zn when not in alloy with Pb/Sn/Sb.

Good luck on your future Zn casting!

banger

Thanks Banger, I'm going to try casting with the zinc again in a few days if I don't become busy.


you can open the top of the lee pot and adjust the little strip in there to give you more heat.
I went from just barely getting mine to 625-f when new to over doing it and getting near 1000-f on full bore.
a little tin in the alloy could help your fill out and flow plus help lower the heat required to melt the alloy.
Tin loves Zinc.
Going to definitely have to try this! I definitely need more heat. If I can get the spout to pour I can pressure cast a better boolit. Thank you for the advice.


This is very interesting. I've got some zinc wheelweights in the garage, and I didn't want to throw them away. Thank you for posting this!

No problem, I have about 8 buckets of zinc ww and no use for them at the moment, if I can get this to work, I'll be more than happy to cast some zinc boolits for some pistols and maybe rifle in the future.
Lead is becoming nonexistent here in ca WW. I sorted a bucket and net 5lbs of lead......


r5r hit what i was thinking , some of the bands in the "as cast" foto look a wee bit rounded , much like a cold mold or a alloy that needs a little tin to help fill out ( other than that good looking castings ! )
i was a bit surprised that they didnt penetrate deeper into the wood tho , i discount this however because your " 1 grain below max load" is for a heavier projectile and lighter ones always need more powder to gain the same pressure/velocity
Definitely rounded and the bases weren't filled. I knew this going in and thought I would give it a go. If it worked (it did for me) I would continue forward and try and use the many hundreds of pounds of zinc I have. I really wasn't surprised on how deep the bullet went. The bullet ended up being 75gr vs 125 in lead. I'll have to try on another piece of wood with hard cast lead and see if I notice a difference.
Also I bet I can go a few grains more with the powder but I'd like to keep it safe I definitely don't want to damage my gun or lose any limbs!


Good point flyboy. Although another conflicting point would be that the lighter zinc bullets would still be the same size as the heavier lead versions from the same mold. Take care with the reduced case capacity when compared to the same weight of lead bullet as that will raise the pressures considerably...

Definitely the reason why I used 125gr load data and not anything lighter, the slug only weighted 75gr vs 125 but, the case volume is the same as a 125gr bullet so that's the reason why I didn't venture off.

[Magana559]

Also, I don't have pure tin only pewter and lead solder. Thought I read somewhere that the zinc would clump with the antimony in pewter and or lead and that is what causes the "oatmeal". Any truth to this?

[Electric88]

Definitely the reason why I used 125gr load data and not anything lighter, the slug only weighted 75gr vs 125 but, the case volume is the same as a 125gr bullet so that's the reason why I didn't venture off.

My next question was going to be how you decided where to start with your powder load. Given the success you are having, I'm inclined to try it myself here in the relatively near future. I have some lead, but I also have some zinc floating around and would prefer to not just throw it away. Thanks again!

[Sasquatch-1]

You may find a problem with the bullet when you back up the distance you shoot from. This will have nothing to do with the zinc but with the diameter of the bullet.

I have a Ruger Blackhawk 357 Convertible. Took it to the range one day with both cylinders and found that at 15 yards half of the 9 mm key holed the target. It is just a warning so you don't get frustrated. Load them to a respectable 9mm round and try them with an appropriate gun.

[Echale3]

I remember years back, and I'm talking 20+ years ago while I was shooting IHMSA Big Bore exclusively with cast bullets, that there was a series of bullet molds made with a tail on the end and you would buy zinc "washers" that would press-fit on that tail. As I recall, the idea was to get higher velocities without any leading or lube needed, since the zinc acted as the lube.

I never tried it nor ever knew anybody that did, but it seemed like an interesting idea. I'm thinking that your experiment may prove that there was merit to the idea.

[Tenbender]

I have a cousin that works for the CIA. He told me several years ago that the CIA and FBI used Zink bullets for training. The reason was the female agents. Could cause birth defects from lead .

[bigjake]

Push the mold up on to spout when using the bottom pour. adjust the pour wide open and hold tight. this worked with WW when I had a problem with fill out.

[Magana559]

My next question was going to be how you decided where to start with your powder load. Given the success you are having, I'm inclined to try it myself here in the relatively near future. I have some lead, but I also have some zinc floating around and would prefer to not just throw it away. Thanks again!

Main reason I tried zinc is because I can't find and real source of cheap lead here in CA. I might have to build a pot and maybe a custom mold but I need something I can plink with.


You may find a problem with the bullet when you back up the distance you shoot from. This will have nothing to do with the zinc but with the diameter of the bullet.

I have a Ruger Blackhawk 357 Convertible. Took it to the range one day with both cylinders and found that at 15 yards half of the 9 mm key holed the target. It is just a warning so you don't get frustrated. Load them to a respectable 9mm round and try them with an appropriate gun.

I figured I'd have a problem once I back up a bit, I definitely will size to 357 next time, I'm a bit worried about pressure on a 358 bullet. The good thing is the lube grooves give a place for the displaced zinc when it enters the forcing cone and finally the rifling. Kind of like a barnes bullet.


I have a cousin that works for the CIA. He told me several years ago that the CIA and FBI used Zink bullets for training. The reason was the female agents. Could cause birth defects from lead .

I'm wondering if they used a jacketed zinc bullet or straight zinc. Would be interesting to find out what exactly they used. Most of the lead vapors come from the primers anyway.


I remember years back, and I'm talking 20+ years ago while I was shooting IHMSA Big Bore exclusively with cast bullets, that there was a series of bullet molds made with a tail on the end and you would buy zinc "washers" that would press-fit on that tail. As I recall, the idea was to get higher velocities without any leading or lube needed, since the zinc acted as the lube.

I never tried it nor ever knew anybody that did, but it seemed like an interesting idea. I'm thinking that your experiment may prove that there was merit to the idea.
I'm guessing the washer cleaned the bore because it was a harder metal, wonder how that played out with accuracy.


Push the mold up on to spout when using the bottom pour. adjust the pour wide open and hold tight. this worked with WW when I had a problem with fill out.

I actually tried that and that is the goal, as of now I can't get my ten pound lee pot to get to a acceptable temperature. I'll have to modify it or buy another 420 pot as that one can get quite hot.

[Shiloh]

Informative thread. Well done.

Shiloh

[Twmaster]

Also, I don't have pure tin only pewter and lead solder. Thought I read somewhere that the zinc would clump with the antimony in pewter and or lead and that is what causes the "oatmeal". Any truth to this?

Did anyone answer this?

I've got a few pounds of big truck wheel weights in Zinc. I also have a spare Lee 4# pot.... Might be worthwhile to try this for plinkers.

[dolfinwriter]

This is fascinating to me. I love to tinker, and I love to improvise and I love to keep my options open. This presents another option I had wondered about but didn't really know enough, so I thought .

I do have one question though, WRT recovering range scrap that may contain zinc bullets if this becomes more common...

Maybe some people are doing this already and we need to be aware that we may begin to encounter zinc in range scrap?

How would one separate the zinc from the lead? Just keep the pot temperature low enough that any zincs would float and could then be removed and thrown into a separate bucket for melting zinc at a later time?

[Magana559]

Did anyone answer this?

I've got a few pounds of big truck wheel weights in Zinc. I also have a spare Lee 4# pot.... Might be worthwhile to try this for plinkers.

Well I ventured off on my own and did it anyway, I can tell you NOT to mix zinc with a wooden stick! It foams up real nice and won't mix into the melt anymore. I have no clue if it was the antimony, copper, or tin that caused it to foam but it sure did.
Once I skimmed off the foam all was well again.

About the smaller lee pot.....I couldn't get that suckered to heat up enough to melt the zinc. I had to use my 20 lb pot.

[Magana559]

I wouldn't worry about it too much, only a small percentage of people cast bullets and a even smaller percentage would cast zinc.

When you aren't sure of zinc it's always best to melt at a lower temperature.

[Magana559]

I'm going to have to break this up into multiple posts because I can only post ten pictures at a time.

Today I tried zinc for the 9mm. Same mold the only thing that changed was the pot and alloy.

The smaller lee pot just didn't have enough heat output to keep the zinc molten and flowing. I had to do what I really didn't want to do..... I emptied my lee 20 lb pot and filled it with 5lbs of zinc ww and then added 1lb of pewter. The pewter was added in hopes of lowering melting temperature and decrease viscosity if the molten metal. I can't say for certain which of the two made more of a difference but I'm going to guess it was the heat.

Once the metal was in the slush stage I made a time consuming mistake! I used a wooden dowel to stir the melt.....boy was that a mistake. When the dowel was in the molten zinc it bubbled and foamed, making the zinc two layers. One layer was molten metal on the bottom and the other was a oatmeal like foam on the top. I could not for the life of me figure how to reduce this mess back into the melt. So, I don't know 100% if it was the bubbling or the impurities in the tin (pewter) that caused me issues all I know it it made some form of alloy with everything in it.

[Magana559]

Pictures kind of jumped the gun but I'll explain.

I heated the now mystery alloy of zinc and pewter until it flowed from the bottom pour nozzel and cast a few hundred water quenched bullets. (Makes it easier for me to handle them as soon as I'm done casting) No wrinkles no undersized bullets like last time and nice sharp edges! Very nice!
Last time the bullets were nice and shiney, this time they are frosted like lead bullets, no problem.

Once I was done I dumped the water from the quench bucket and dried them off on a old towel, right after the towel they went into the sizer. I use a lee push through sizer with no problems, it was easier than I thought it would be to size .358 zinc bullets down to .356 no problem at all actually.

Once they were sized I let them completely dry off and loaded them just like I would with fmj ammo. All loading went off without a hitch.

When I was firing them I did have a problem, a minimum charge of Titegroup wouldn't cycle in my ruger sr9c with a 2.5" Barrel......hmm well that's a bummer! With no signs of pressure I continued forward and upped the charge .2gr at a time until I reached a point where it would cycle most of the time. The pictures above show the primers of the maximum charge I used. I'm unsure if I should keep going or if I should worry about pressure.
The primer wipe isn't a big deal to me because this gun always did that with factory ammo before I would load my own. It's caused by the firing pin not retracting until the slide reaches all the way back and then once it moves forward it retracts.

If I could find somebody willing to test my ammo for pressure in the appropriate instruments, I'd be more than happy to load a few more.
I need to be certain this is safe before I continue forward.

[Catshooter]

Wow Magana that is very interesting.

If you're concerned about pressure use ol' what's his names (I can't think of his name!) measurement method.

With a micrometer measure the case head of an un-fired factory round. Then measure it after firing. Then in your loading never exceed the amount the two differ. I'll do this with five or six cases and then reload them until I get the load I want/reach my pressure limit.


Cat

[Uncle Jimbo]

Dumb question time about this. Isn't Zinc much harder than lead and jacketed bullets. Would this not lead to premature barrel wear or failure.
Outside of this question, this is a real good thread.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Most cast zinc items (including zinc WW's) made in USA are made with a zinc alloy called Zamak 3 and is about 82 BHN.

[DW475]

Great info, i may have to go back to the junk yard and see if i can get the two 5 gallon buckets of zinc WW back.

[Twmaster]

Ok, so you got oatmeal when you used wood to stir....

What results did you get with some other stirring device?

Do you feel you'd have got oatmeal without the wood stirrer?

[Magana559]

Wow Magana that is very interesting.

If you're concerned about pressure use ol' what's his names (I can't think of his name!) measurement method.

With a micrometer measure the case head of an un-fired factory round. Then measure it after firing. Then in your loading never exceed the amount the two differ. I'll do this with five or six cases and then reload them until I get the load I want/reach my pressure limit.


Cat

Thank you, I'll have to look this method up and attempt to replicate it.
My main concern is blowing this gun to pieces and injuring myself or my wife. Would definitely like to invest the resources to get a proper pressure graph. Peaks and curves tell more of a story than other methods. Maybe I can use a slower powder as Titegroup is a fast burning powder.


Dumb question time about this. Isn't Zinc much harder than lead and jacketed bullets. Would this not lead to premature barrel wear or failure.
Outside of this question, this is a real good thread.
Not a dumb question at all! It's also a concern of mine but I don't have an issue with it just yet as I'm just getting started. A new barrel is very little cost to explore something new to me. I also believe the zinc self lubricates so it's probably not all that bad. Some people shoot steel jacketed pistol ammo, I wouldn't think this would be any worst.


Most cast zinc items (including zinc WW's) made in USA are made with a zinc alloy called Zamak 3 and is about 82 BHN.

I had a member test a rather large batch of zinc ww I melted and the results were roughly 97% zinc and 3% lead. The lead I assume came from lost lead wheel weights in the mix.

Also being that barrel steel is roughly 250-300bhn I don't believe it would be an issue.


Great info, i may have to go back to the junk yard and see if i can get the two 5 gallon buckets of zinc WW back.

I wouldn't rush to buy them back, I'm doing this out of necessity and incase we see lead prices skyrocket or lead being scarce.
It takes significantly more time and effort to cast zinc but it's 100% possible.


Ok, so you got oatmeal when you used wood to stir....

What results did you get with some other stirring device?

Do you feel you'd have got oatmeal without the wood stirrer?

I believe it to aid in the foaming and possibly made it worst but I do not believe it to be the sol cause.
Something didn't agree with the alloy and caused the foam. Might be dross or it might be oxides like we get with lead. In order to reduce this back in I'm guessing I might have to use a salt. I do not want to use any kind of salt in my casting pot. Worst comes to worst I'll just save it and reduce it on its own in a larger smelting pot.

[Sasquatch-1]

Thank you, I'll have to look this method up and attempt to replicate it.
My main concern is blowing this gun to pieces and injuring myself or my wife. Would definitely like to invest the resources to get a proper pressure graph. Peaks and curves tell more of a story than other methods. Maybe I can use a slower powder as Titegroup is a fast burning powder.


Not to sound like a smart *** this might be the time to invest in a nice Ruger .357 Convertible with the 9mm cylinder.

Also, If you have some Unique try using it. It has lower chamber pressures then Titegroup.

[dudel]

I remember years back, and I'm talking 20+ years ago while I was shooting IHMSA Big Bore exclusively with cast bullets, that there was a series of bullet molds made with a tail on the end and you would buy zinc "washers" that would press-fit on that tail. As I recall, the idea was to get higher velocities without any leading or lube needed, since the zinc acted as the lube.

I never tried it nor ever knew anybody that did, but it seemed like an interesting idea. I'm thinking that your experiment may prove that there was merit to the idea.

Harvey ProtexBore Boolits

http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=424

http://www.hawkbullets.com/swage-it.htm

http://www.hawkbullets.com/Prot-X-Bore.htm

[BAGTIC]

I have a cousin that works for the CIA. He told me several years ago that the CIA and FBI used Zink bullets for training. The reason was the female agents. Could cause birth defects from lead .

I doubt women had anything to do with it. Frangible zinc bullets are sometimes used for range safety considerations.

[BAGTIC]

If the bullets are the proper size should not make much difference. Zinc is softer than copper. Army proving grounds has traditionally used zinc slugs in testing large bore guns (artillery). Soft iron has been used in small arms. Much of this has been experimented with long ago.

www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/071619.pdf (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/071619.pdf)

[solderboy]

I also believe the zinc self lubricates [/QUOTE]

did you lube the zinc boolits?

[dudel]

I also believe the zinc self lubricates

did you lube the zinc boolits?[/QUOTE]

http://www.hawkbullets.com/Prot-X-Bore.htm

Zinc and certain zinc alloys will produce a virtually self-lubricating bullet. Such bullets are capable of top hand gun velocities and are accurate and deep penetrating at close range. Unfortunately, zinc does not possess sufficient density to sustain velocities and it will not mushroom against flesh and bone.

If we could combine lead and zinc in an alloy and retain the desirable features of each, we might produce a superior bullet. Alas, these two metals are incompatible and will not alloy. Matter of fact, this antithesis is so marked that even lead base paint is prohibited in a Klaksite manufacturing plant. Jim Harvey, inventor of the Prot-X-Bore Bullet, decided that this very characteristic of lead and zinc might be put to advantage if the two metals could be put together "cold" and hence, his now famous zinc base bullet. In the way, each bullet leaves a minute layer of zinc in the barrel upon which the next bullet "rides." And so we have a super accurate pure lead bullet that can be shot at better than magnum hand gun velocities without leading the barrel, and with a gas check that cannot fall off.

[Thomas Traddles]

In another thread, member Greenwart posted a link to EH Harrison's book on cast bullets. There is a section in there on zinc bullets. Here is the link to the pdf.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/Cla...tBullets-s.pdf (http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/CastBullets-s.pdf)

[paul h]

Wow Magana that is very interesting.

If you're concerned about pressure use ol' what's his names (I can't think of his name!) measurement method.

With a micrometer measure the case head of an un-fired factory round. Then measure it after firing. Then in your loading never exceed the amount the two differ. I'll do this with five or six cases and then reload them until I get the load I want/reach my pressure limit.


Cat

That method has been tested against strain gauge chamber pressure readings and it has been proven that measuring case heads with a micrometer is not an accurate or repeatable method of measuring pressures. Also typical handgun pressures will show no case head expansion so you can be running 20kpsi or 40 kpsi and you have no way of knowing where you are at.

[Catshooter]

That's the first of heard of that Paulh. Can you direct me to more data please? Thanks.


Cat

[Magana559]

Not to sound like a smart *** this might be the time to invest in a nice Ruger .357 Convertible with the 9mm cylinder.

Also, If you have some Unique try using it. It has lower chamber pressures then Titegroup.

I have loaded these with no problem in my GP100 with no issues, that was my first test.
My main goal is to cast zinc for this SR9c as cheap as possible and with no fouling in the barrel.

At the moment I only have Titegroup.


I also believe the zinc self lubricates

did you lube the zinc boolits?[/QUOTE]

Nope no lube, no need!