1.25-12 Dies for forming and base swaging

[kywoodwrkr]

Considering using above size dies for forming.
I know the upside is larger dies, therefore more pressure possible and downside is initial cost.
What does the collective, where the rubber(brass) meets the road(sizers), use in this arena?
Is the extra cost justified by production, less frustration, better product etc. etc.?
Have a RC and Herters with insert plus researching electric hydraulic system/press.
So, what think ye?
Thanks.

[GRUMPA]

You got me stumped on this one. Just what case are you working on?.....Or did I miss the memo?

[kywoodwrkr]

Didn't realize I was supposed to be caliber specific.
But if that is necessary, lets say forming Swiss Vetterli out of 348.
That might be of general interest as was my query.
For history on the aforementioned case, I have already split a CH-4D form die in 7/8-14, therefore researching 1.25-12 dies.
In reviewing CH-4Ds current offerings, I notice they have larger size dies available.
My query was more whether anyone had a + or - attitude about the larger sized forming and other dies and their usefulness.
Now then, my intent was to be none caliber specific, but more of a question on value of the larger dies.
Thanks.

[Wayne Smith]

Assuming you have a press to use them in, it seems obvious that the extra metal should be stronger and less likely to split. I've never seen such a die nor do I have the current ability to use them ... and I haven't stayed in a hotel for years!

[Spector]

Not difficult to do and certainly doesn't warrant using extra large dies. I use some old RCBS 44 magnum dies a friend gave me to turn .348 Win into 10.4x38 to 10.4x42 I just use a Lee Turret Press. There is a detailed description of the easy to do conversion at Swissrifles.com. A gentleman there, Parashooter, is most helpful to people getting into reloading for Swiss Vetterlis. You will have neck-sized brass when the process is complete, but at the low pressure found in the Vetterli that is not a real problem and brass life will be improved. There is some variation in the chambers of these rifles as they were made by many manufacturers.

I'm relatively sure you could find a way to form brass with overly large dies, but I doubt the resultant brass will fit your rifles as well as using the process I alluded to. Check out the technique Parashooter has shared with many people over the years.

I purchased a bronze bushing of proper length and diameter to slip around the .348 case to control where I formed the initial shoulder and different thickness washers to control the crimp length. I modified a Lee 44 magnum case length gauge and installed an extra long pin in it to get the best case length for my particular 69/71 Vetterli. Chambers do vary some as well as best boolit diameter.

If for some reason after reading the procedure you decide that is not for you then you can still pursue over-size dies as an option and the way you want to go.

I use the Lee 310 qrain RF 44 caliber boolit sized to .430'' over 19.5 grains of SR4759 and a 1/2 grain tuft of Dacron for approximately 1365 fps. That is what works well in my rifle. Your mileage may vary.............Mike

[rockrat]

If looking for a press, I believe one of the rcbs ammomaster presses have the right threads along with the Lee classic cast 50 bmg presses

[EDG]

I would only use them if I had a lathe with a taper attachment so that I could bore tapered holes.
You could make each die for about $0 to $15 depending on the metal that you start with and the heat treat required.
It would take a very large press or a hydraulic press. I don't think any of the conventional presses would do the job.

I formed the head of 7.62 Nato to fit 6.5 Jap and .444 Marlin to fit .303 Brit using steel .44 Mag 7/8-14 sizer dies and split 3 different dies with a Rockchucker so you need a bigger press and at least 1" dies


Considering using above size dies for forming.
I know the upside is larger dies, therefore more pressure possible and downside is initial cost.
What does the collective, where the rubber(brass) meets the road(sizers), use in this arena?
Is the extra cost justified by production, less frustration, better product etc. etc.?
Have a RC and Herters with insert plus researching electric hydraulic system/press.
So, what think ye?
Thanks.

[kywoodwrkr]

I would only use them if I had a lathe with a taper attachment so that I could bore tapered holes.
You could make each die for about $0 to $15 depending on the metal that you start with and the heat treat required.
It would take a very large press or a hydraulic press. I don't think any of the conventional presses would do the job.

I formed the head of 7.62 Nato to fit 6.5 Jap and .444 Marlin to fit .303 Brit using steel .44 Mag 7/8-14 sizer dies and split 3 different dies with a Rockchucker so you need a bigger press and at least 1" dies


First of all thanks for the reply.
The rockchuckers did hold up then?
That was part of the answer I was looking for, how much pressure will one sustain and keep on working.
7,62 to 6.5 Japanese would be in that arena to give an answer.
The die(Vetterli) I had split was a 7/8-14, and Vetterli base is around .539".
I am in hopes that I will be able to use a four axis wire EDM to burn my tapers out if I go that way.
RCBS used to sell a set of base forming dies which looked a whole lot like the Lyman FL dies used with a vise or arbor press.
I think those dies took four or more steps if I remember correctly.
May try and get one of the instructors in maintenance interested in building a hydraulic press system.:twisted:
Oh well, keeps the brain cells occupied.
Thanks again.

[skeettx]

Sorry, for REAL forming stuff I use my 12 ton hydraulic shop press.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200641794_200641794


And many of my dies are made from OLD diesel engine wrist pins :)
New ones are EXPENSIVE

http://www.vogelmanufacturing.com/shop/ag-auto-diesel/cummins/wrist-pin-steel-1-625.html

OLD ones are FREE.

Mike

[kywoodwrkr]

Sorry, for REAL forming stuff I use my 12 ton hydraulic shop press.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200641794_200641794


And many of my dies are made from OLD diesel engine wrist pins :)
New ones are EXPENSIVE

http://www.vogelmanufacturing.com/shop/ag-auto-diesel/cummins/wrist-pin-steel-1-625.html

OLD ones are FREE.

Mike
Thank you for the response.
Like the idea of wrist pins in a hydraulic system.
Guess I'll spend some time at the keyboard in research this weekend.
Thanks.

[EDG]

the Rockchucker I used was made in 1971 and I had to form the solid heads using between 5 and 10 passes meaning I had to sneak up on the finished case head or the die would split. I think I was about at the limit of the Rockchucker too.
I would recommend at least an A2 or an A4 or one of the big Corbin type presses. A Harbor Freight press that uses a 20 ton hydraulic jack is probably cheaper than either of the big RCBS presses.

You can probably bore some tapered holes using the compound tool rest but you will have to do more polishing.

Be sure to use a scatter shield between you and any dies.


First of all thanks for the reply.
The rockchuckers did hold up then?
That was part of the answer I was looking for, how much pressure will one sustain and keep on working.
7,62 to 6.5 Japanese would be in that arena to give an answer.
The die(Vetterli) I had split was a 7/8-14, and Vetterli base is around .539".
I am in hopes that I will be able to use a four axis wire EDM to burn my tapers out if I go that way.
RCBS used to sell a set of base forming dies which looked a whole lot like the Lyman FL dies used with a vise or arbor press.
I think those dies took four or more steps if I remember correctly.
May try and get one of the instructors in maintenance interested in building a hydraulic press system.:twisted:
Oh well, keeps the brain cells occupied.
Thanks again.

[kywoodwrkr]

I would recommend at least an A2 or an A4 or one of the big Corbin type presses. A Harbor Freight press that uses a 20 ton hydraulic jack is probably cheaper than either of the big RCBS presses.

You can probably bore some tapered holes using the compound tool rest but you will have to do more polishing.

Be sure to use a scatter shield between you and any dies.
I think you are forcing me to listen to Yogi Berra and since I appear to be at a Y, I guess I better take it!
Since making my own hydraulic system has been in the back of my mind, I guess I'll have to start the design function.
This will be a Y as I had planned to use a wire EDM to burn forming dies out of threaded stock.
Even have the holder made.
Have been looking at putting hydraulics on the bullet swaging system so will have to see how,or if, the two will co-exist, or not!
I guess there isn't anything saying forming dies have to be threaded to be used in a ram device.
Thanks.