early learning experience with '58 remington repro

[yeahbub]

Some years ago, not saying how many, I had trouble with misfires in my .44 Remington and took to clearing the nipples with a music wire vent pick before firing each cylinder-full. At some point, I realized that it was relatively easy to push the pick through the nipple all the way to the back of the ball or bullet. I also immediately found that recoil was considerably increased when firing chambers this had been done to. Obviously, using the vent pick in this way left an ignition channel through the length of the charge and it ignited up through the center, increasing the burn rate and possibly producing an approximation of a progressive burn. The effect was repeatable with BP but not so much with substitutes, I believe because their compressibility allowed the channel to close up when the pick was withdrawn. There didn't seem to be any negative effects on the pistol, but I wasn't very knowledgeable at the time and didn't want my favorite pistol reduced to bucket-o-gun through chancy practices. Some years later, I read of Elmer Keith's early experiments with increasing revolver performance with BP in original Colts, back when they were cheap and readily available (Imagine that!), and the few which didn't survive his efforts. Yet recently I was reading about the use of Pyrodex pellets in C&B pistols and in cartridges as well which are essentially a pelletized version with a hole through the middle exposing a great deal of surface area to facilitate rapid ignition and, presumably, to approximate a progressive burn into the bargain. Haven't used any. How do they perform? Does anyone have any thoughts on the vent pick idea and whether it's safe? Has anyone made pelletized black available or experimented with it? I'm aware of pelletized BP used in military ammunition, but this was usually in bottle-necked cases with heavy boolits in relatively small bores, also the extruded and hollow "brown powders" of similar composition in the late 19th century used in artillery. Thoughts on this?

[Omnivore]

Hmmm......

I've used several hundred of the 30 grain equivalent Pyrodex pellets in a Pietta Remington 44 revolver. What can I say? They are handier than loose powder, sort of. That is assuming you're loading from what I refer to as a buffet table. If you're packing in the field, they're not so handy, being that a flask is easier to carry and allows you to dispense charges with one hand while you hold the gun with the other. The pellets are somewhat fragile also-- I've never used a whole container of them without a few broken pellets.


I have made a couple hundred "cartridges" with them, by cementing the pellet to the base of the 200 grain Lee 450-200-1R bullet using sodium silicate, and then dipping the bullet in melted Gatofeo #1 lube and storing them in a 100 count plastic cartridge box. If loading from a table they are pretty handy, as you just push the cart in, and seat. They are also quite powerful. Several times out of a hundred, I'd get a very slight delay in ignition, and so I decided they weren't for me. Now I use paper cartridges and they're going off without a hitch. I won't be going back to the pellets unless they find a way to make them more reliable. Although some of the on-line sellers say the pellets have an ignition strip, as do the rifle pellets, the pistol pellets do not have that feature. Apparently they should.


As for your theory of "progressive burn"? I have no idea. Either you get the velocity you think the gun is capable of, or you don't. You can put whatever name on it you want I suppose. I'll call the burn profile I'm getting with Old Eynsford black powder in a paper cartridge, "Marline". How do you like that? Marline works pretty dang well, too. I bet you didn't learn THAT in physics class.


Generally an equivalent charge of Pyrodex yields a bit more velocity than that same volume of Goex, but Swiss and Old Eynsford black powders yield similar velocities to Pyrodex (without poking the charge through the nipple).


If you want a true test of your theory, shoot over a chronograph, carefully record your results and get back to us. But remember the old adage; "If you measure your gun's velocity once, you'll know what it is. If you measure it twice, you'll never be sure again."

Frankly I'd be willing to sacrifice 20 feet per second in muzzle velocity if I didn't have to poke my loads before capping, or fiddle around with a nipple pick for any reason. Besides all that, you form your nice ignition channel down the center of six loaded chambers, and who's to say the shock and recoil from the first shot doesn't completely upset your nice little bore holes in the remaining five chambers? Sorry; I'm not buying your premise, in case you haven't noticed. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but for the moment I'm not buying.


In years of shooting BP revolvers, the only time I've had occasion to use a nipple pick was to try pushing out a wad of paper that got jammed into a flash hole due to the way I was twisting the back ends of my paper cartridges back then. That was one occasion, years ago. I have not since then ever used a pick, in thousands of rounds, nor do I anticipate ever needing one again.


Back in the 1860s, along with consumable envelope cartridges made of paper or skin, there was a type of cartridge used in percussion revolvers made with what was referred to as "compressed powder" which would have been a form of pelletized black powder. My experiments with Pyrodex pellets were inspired by those old compressed powder cartridges. The new pellets work great but for their relative fragility in handling, and the occasional slight delay. Some people say they use the pellets without any problems, and others place a five or ten grain "booster" behind them to ensure reliable ignition, and thus they utterly blow away any advantage in handiness-- it is now more complicated than using loose powder alone. Some people are wierd, but this is all for fun anyway, so whatever is fun, Man.


The pellets are also quite a bit more expensive per shot than any loose powder. Given the ease, load versatility and superior handiness of using paper cartridges in the field, with no need for the buffet table whatsoever, I don't even think of pellets anymore, or loose powder in a flask. Strap on your gun belt, holding the gun holster and a cartridge box, sling a capping tool holding 100 caps around your neck, don your eyes and ears, and you have everything you need to keep your gun running for a day of fun.

[yeahbub]

Greetings, Omnivore!

You bring up some good points about consistency in the vent pick practice, particularly whether the recoil might rearrange things in the unfired chambers. This is certainly a possibility, though the subjective experience of it seemed to indicate the tightness of the projectiles and the degree of compression of the powder kept the channels intact for the remaining five. You're quite right, the only way to find out what the actual results are is to use a chronograph. It's on the bucket list, but it's a big bucket. In the meantime, gas erosion and blow-back had become a problem. I had taken to silver-soldering the nipples shut and back-boring them with a #60 drill bit, which vastly reduces blow back through the nipples and extends their usable lifetime. It also eliminates the possibility of using the vent pick idea since the wire diameter is considerably larger than the now .012 hole. Interestingly, the occasional misfires were also reduced, but this may be due to fairly regular use of BP substitutes.

I also had engaged in making paper cartridges and found a way to ensure good ignition. My practice was to use Bo-Peep laundry starch applied with a Q-tip as the glue to close the side seam and, folding the end closed, apply a dab of starch and dip the end in a container of loose BP. The granules that stuck on the outside would be directly against the flash hole when loaded and never failed to burn through the paper and ignite the rest of the charge. Starch is flammable when dry and the granules were glued on with good durability. Another possibility I have not yet tried would be to dissolve a spoonful of smokeless in acetone until it's the consistency of white glue and use it for the adhesive. It's certainly flammable, gooey-sticky, and stable under normal circumstances, hardening into a shellac-like consistency. I had also wondered whether coating the entire outside of the paper might seal it against humidity. Not historically correct, but definitely workable. Might reduce the occasional layers of unburned paper that need to be removed from the chambers at the end of the day.

[Omnivore]

With a single layer of perm paper at the back, there's no reason to want to improve ignition. The cap flash appears to be indifferent to the paper.

Your starch idea may be the answer to my occasional ignition delay with Pyrodex pellets, but on the other hand since the only advantage to the pellets is their convenience, and that convenience is pretty well blown away by having to fix them, there's no real reason to want to fix them. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and now I'm done with them. They're more fragile than paper cartridges, they cost more and they suffer from occasional hang fires. Take away the hang fires, even with zero effort and zero added expense, and I still see no reason to use them, except as a novelty.

A paper cartridge made of un-treated perm paper with one layer at the back does not need any fixing to make it ignite reliably. Before that design, I was using carts made of un-treated cigarette paper. With a minimum of two layers and often more at the back, they ignited very well also. I don't see a problem there which needs fixed.

several people have suggested using dissolved nitro powder as an adhesive, or to treat the entire paper case. Dunno. Some of the smaller metal carts are loaded with only a few grains of smokeless, and I'd think you'd be adding that much or more to treat the whole paper cartridge, thus adding a "whole other load" of smokeless to your BP load, with the wild card of dissolving it and letting it dry again, which is probably going to change its burn characteristics. Doesn't seem appealing to me, for a "benefit" that may not exist.

Moisture would be a real issue though of course. There were metal foil cartridges (presumably tin) back in the day, which you had to penetrate before loading, and other "weatherproof" cartridges, but I'd have to look back at the reading material to see if I could discover what was used. Shooting in wind-driven rain in the open probably wasn't a promising endeavor back then, regardless.

[yeahbub]

Interesting that you use untreated paper. Do you ever get a few layers of paper built up on the chamber walls? I always cooked or soaked mine in a saturated potassium nitrate/water solution. The starch was at full saturation also. Even then, at the end of the range session, I would occasionally have to engage a bore brush to drag out unburned tatters against the chamber wall, often several layers thick. I got the impression that once a spot of paper failed to burn up, the next cartridge might well layer another bit in the same place. It wasn't enough to cause any difficulty, but with all that flame, heat and pressure, I was puzzled at this detail. Piles of the tatters would readily be consumed as treated paper does when ignited, so it wasn't like I missed a spot - they were all immersed in the solution.

Maybe my technique for closing the ends of the cartridges could be improved. My usual practice is to leave one diameter beyond the end of my wrapping mandrel to fold down the sides in a north over south and east over west configuration, which results in four layers for the cap to blast through, plus the starch holding it all together. This also occasionally required vent picking when one failed to ignite, hence the BP starched onto the end of the cartridges. I originally used treated cigarette papers, but they seemed fragile, so I switched to using that thin gift wrapping tissue seen around the holidays. It's more durable and not much thicker but may add to the ignition question. How do you construct yours to get only one thickness at the rear? Another question, what is "perm paper"?

[rodwha]

I used cigarette paper and found shards of paper after ignition often. Eventually I left them to see if it caused issues. I only went so far as three cylinders full, but never had an issue.

I also have have twisted my ends and never had a hangfire or failure to fire.

I did try nitrating papers but it was so tedious I lost the desire. I never did use them.

[yeahbub]

One of my concerns with treated paper was whether there were any smoldering bits in there. That would be a problem. Never happened in several years of using them. I'd expect untreated paper would be less likely to present such an issue. More unburned paper maybe, but no smoldering.

[rodwha]

When treated it ought to perform like flash paper and be fully consumed upon ignition.

[yeahbub]

It usually was, but once in a while, there would be a bit of paper left behind. I went so far as to boil the paper in the saturated water/nitrate solution to expand and permeate the paper, but there were still occasional bits left behind. They didn't generally survive switching to loose powder when my cartridges ran out, which was a much more entertaining way of getting the paper out than a bore brush. They are certainly a better way when in the field once the reliability issues are secured.

Speaking of flash paper, I managed to get some from a magician supply place and intended to try it out, but other duties were making demands on my time and I never got a round tuit. I expect they'd do well, though. I read that theatrical flash paper is only 60-80% nitrated, so I'd have no fear of inducing pressure issues. Has anyone else tried it?

[Omnivore]

I've fired over 100 rounds in one session, using untreated perm paper. Lots of paper bits were found while cleaning at the end of that day. I got perfect ignition on every shot, so the little bits of paper are of no consequence. The last six shots, after firing more than 90 rounds with no cleaning, were fired for group, and I got one of the best groups I've gotten with that gun. Here is the genesis and development of that experiment;
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=8975.0

ive tried nitrating cigarette papers using KNO3, but it seemed to make little if any difference. If I can get off 100 shots in succession without a hitch, I'm going to say the untreated perm paper is plenty reliable.

Here's my cartridge-making technique;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-upload_owner&v=_JIyc6s8fnQ

and here's the basic design specs;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-2HUcfAyaaQ

Most people will not bother to try my technique because they think the cartridge-making takes skill (it doesn't take much though), and many others will simply dismiss my reports as B.S., but then most people complain about having problems with their guns; problems that I no longer have. Go figure.

I have shown two local shooters how to do this though, and they now know that it's both easy and effective. This perm paper cart with the end cap is the easiest to make of all the many different cartridges I've made in the past. It leaves only one layer between powder and flash hole, and it has the distinction of being based on Civil War Federal Army Ordnance specs., as is the GF1 lube I use.

Once you try it you'll become an evangelist for it.

[beemer]

I am curious about the brand of cap you used when the misfires occurred. I wore out two .36 cal. pistols in the 70's and 80's. and have used treated paper cartridges, every brand of cap I could find and anything else I could find info on. The cause of a lot of misfires was foil lined caps, I would have to dig the foil out of before that cylinder would fire again. I found that RWS was good as any and better than most. That was when info was as scarce as people who shot those pistols. For paper cartridges I used nitrated onion skin. I would roll it up on a tapered dowel to form a cone and fold the back. The cone gave it a tendency to split when loaded. I don't have a cap & ball pistol anymore and don't want one, sort of like the '71 Sportster I had, had a ball and would take nothing for the experience but I don't want one anymore. I still like long rifles and build one when time permits.DaveI

[Omnivore]

I've had great results with Remington #10 caps with Treso nipples, except with Pyrodex pellets which I don't use anymore anyway. I'm on my third order of 1,000 Rem 10s. I got some RWS back when Remingtons were near impossible to find in stock, but I haven't used more than a few of them so I can't comment on their effectiveness. Several BP shooters have spoken highly of them, when the subject comes up.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

= Another possibility I have not yet tried would be to dissolve a spoonful of smokeless in acetone until it's the consistency of white glue and use it for the adhesive. It's certainly flammable, gooey-sticky, and stable under normal circumstances, hardening into a shellac-like consistency. I had also wondered whether coating the entire outside of the paper might seal it against humidity. Not historically correct, but definitely workable. Might reduce the occasional layers of unburned paper that need to be removed from the chambers at the end of the day.

It isn't that historically incorrect. Collodion was used to coat cap and ball revolver cartridges, ad collodion simply is a solution of nitrocellulose (hopefully a low-nitrated grade like pre-safety film stock). Alcohol might dissolve it enough, but ether is probably better than acetone.

In theory you can make platinum lined nipples considerably cheaper than you can buy them, by soldering in platinum tubng from a jeweller's supplier. You could probably get much better value for money with stainless hypodermic tubing or needles, which are available on eBay. Nipples work best with a venture-shaped hole, widening towards each end, but I'm not sure whether the tubing will anneal soft enough to expand it with a tapered needle point.

[Omnivore]

I've never heard of a nipple burning out on a revolver.

[yeahbub]

The best performance I got from customized nipple geometry is with a tapered leade into the cone (using a fine straight tapered carbide burr in a pin vise turned by hand to keep from breaking it off in the nipple) and a .010-.012 diameter exit hole on the flat face with no chamfer, the tapered leade concentrating and accelerating the blast from the cap. The gas dynamics of a sharp-cornered hole on the chamber end render the functional flow path diameter at only some 60% of the physical hole size, hence, limiting back blast. A chamfered or radiused exit hole on the chamber end facilitates increased laminar flow back through the nipple at peak chamber pressure and is what I wound up with, with the factory nipples, after a steady diet of heavy conicals. The lower velocity and increased time under pressure produced gas erosion hole enlargement and irregular hole shapes after long use. Blowback was at the point where the fired chamber was no longer aligned with the barrel, partially advanced toward the next chamber and dinging up the edge of the cylinder's nipple mortise by the secondary hammer fall. It was long since time for a new set of nipples or the afore-mentioned silver-solder closure and #60 back-bore through the cone. The silver solder I used has proven pretty durable and the sharp edge of the exit hole can be re-established with a little judicious stoning, if needed. Of course, a simpler way to limit gas erosion and back blast is with round balls , the lightest and quickest choice of projectiles, though not the best performers in my particular revolver.

[Tackleberry41]

Only time I have found need to push a pick thru the nipples is when first loading or when using substitutes. I switched over to real BP and reliability issues with muzzle loaders disappeared.