Cast Bullets Sized for Revolver Cylinder or Barrel?

[MaverickNH]

OK - I'll pick a novice topic for my first post as a novice caster.

Do I size cast bullets to fit the revolver barrel or the cylinder throat? I'm reading "From Ingot to Target" and think it says to size to cylinder throat, but others had me slug the barrel for sizing.

Thanks for the help!

[fryboy]

Slug both just so you know and size to the biggest chamber on the cylinder ,hopefully your barrel is smaller if not ... ,oh and size both ends of the barrel ( they sometimes have constrictions )

[Char-Gar]

OK - I'll pick a novice topic for my first post as a novice caster.

Do I size cast bullets to fit the revolver barrel or the cylinder throat? I'm reading "From Ingot to Target" and think it says to size to cylinder throat, but others had me slug the barrel for sizing.

Thanks for the help!

Follow Glen Fryxell's instructions to the letter and you will be happy. There is no need to slug the barrel.

[MaverickNH]

Slugging the barrel was complicated as my S&W R8 has 5 groves, so a micrometer wasn't going to set right. I have a home mini-machine shop (lathe and mill) but don't have a 5-flute V-Anvil micrometer, which might work fine if I had one. But I do have precision Pin Gauges in 0.001 increments (sized 0.0002 under each whole 0.001 increment). Will those work?

[Sorry - posted this while you were replying Char-Gar. I'll slug the cylinders. But would Pin Gauges work OK for cycliders and bores?

[Wolfer]

Your boolits need to fit your cyl throats. They need to be bigger than your groove.
For example a 45 colt with .452 throats and a .4515 groove diameter.

If your barrel is bigger than your throats you'll probably have leading issues. Easy fix, just ream your throats to the correct size and size your boolits accordingly.

Hope this helps.

[Outpost75]

Easiest way on a revolver is to remove the cylinder from the revolver, support it on a bench block, then drop SOFT, pure lead round balls in from the chamber end, then tap them through and out the front of the front of the cylinder to measure the balls with a micrometer to determine the diameter of the cylinder throats where the bullets exit.

Size bullets to fit the largest throat. If cylinder throats are smaller than barrel groove diameter and/or if there is more than 0.001" difference between cylinder throats, send your cylinder to DougGuy in NC to have them reamed to proper size and all alike. Very reasonable cost to do and quick turnaround. Makes a BIG difference!

[outdoorfan]

My understanding is that Ruger Blackhawks in .45 Colt used to (maybe still do) have undersized cylinder throats , and that caused real trouble when shooting lead. I'd imagine that S&W has their tolerances down better. Anyhow, as the others suggested, size to the throats. If there's a problem, then you'll have to start checking on other things.

[DougGuy]

Pin gages are the exact right thing to measure throats with. For gun work, you already have the correct class, Z minus, which are -.0002" but you need the half sizes as well.

I have not read all of Fryxell but what he says about the relationship between boolit and throat is correct. The only problem with that, and it's a big issue, is uneven throats. How are you expected to size to a cylinder that has as much as .0025" from the biggest throat to the smallest? Answer, you can't. You pin out the cylinder and find it's largest throat, and you can make all of them match the largest one, or you can round them all up to the nearest half thou, and size the boolit to the whole thou under that. The PROPER method for fitting throats and boolits, are you choose the size boolit you want to use, then size the throats .0005" over boolit diameter. This way you make the throats fit the boolits, BUT you are achieving the exact relationship that Fryxell is suggesting, and that is a cylinder throat that does not size the boolit as it is fired, nor is it oversize and allow powder gas to escape along the sides of the boolit as it is fired. THIS is what works. If and it is a big IF, your throats are all even, then yes you can size .0005" under throat diameter and arrive at the same thing. Problem nowdays, aren't very many cylinders made uniform enough to do this with anymore.

Ruger used to gang ream cylinders 3 throats at a time, index the cylinder over one hole and ream the other three. When their reamers wore, they would replace them as they wore, but they only replaced the worst worn one, and didn't replace all 3 at the same time. So now you have worn reamers which cut smaller holes of course, and a new reamer which cuts larger holes because it isn't worn. The outcome of this, is that you have tens of thousands of cylinders made in this fashion with 3 "pairs" of throats, each pair a different size than the others. For these to be even, and having the throats as even as you can from one to the other, you have to match them all to the largest throat, or take all the throats to the next size up reamer. Either way, you want to end up with 6 throats all within .0002" of each other. <<< THIS, IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of getting the cylinder throats correct. They all need to match. You can then size boolits to fit the throats.

[DougGuy]

Now for some real world numbers. I keep two .44 caliber reamers, .4315" and .4325" some .44 cylinders aren't too badly mismatched and if I can use the smaller reamer on them, the shooter can size to .431" and achieve proper fit. Throats at .4315" and .431" boolits. This makes for a light drag fit and sometimes you can stick 6 boolits into the throats of a newly reamed and honed cylinder and turn it up vertical, and the boolits will stay in the throats. This is about as perfect as you could want the fitment of boolit to throat. It doesn't get ANY better than that.

Many SBH cylinders will have throats that the smaller .4315" reamer just falls through. For these I have to use the .4325" and recommend the shooter size to .432" and I can arrive at the same light drag fit.

In 45 caliber I use only a .4525" reamer and advise the shooter to size to .452" (Or they send the cylinder and say they want to use .452" and would I ream the throats to accommodate this boolit diameter). Sometimes they will send a dummy or two and a funny thing happens. The customer *thought* they were sizing to .452" but when I mic the dummy, it may read .452" on one axis, and .4529" or .4535" across the other axis 90° opposed to the first reading. They are loading an oval shaped boolit and because it's larger than the reamer, and larger than the final honed throat, it has interference. I have found more than a couple of samples exhibit this characteristic. For these, rather than hone a throat to fit a wacko boolit, I just tell the customer he needs another sizing die or to check the die he has, and generally the problem will be found and fixed. Pretty much sizing a .45 cylinder to .4525" should fix any issues the shooter is having. I have also been asked to hone to fit a specific boolit which may be larger than the throat cut by the reamer. Takes a little extra time for this, but it is perfectly acceptable to get a request for this. Some guys want to shoot -as dropped- and if the boolit is a little bigger, I have to hone the throat a little more to bring it into spec.

Generally speaking, a .431" will be larger than most if not all production made .44 spl/mag revolver barrels. Groove diameter is normally .429" ~ .430" so there really isn't a need to slug the bore. Same with .45 caliber revolvers, unless you are dealing with an old Colt or wartime S&W, it will have a groove diameter nominally .451" so using a .452" boolit is acceptable as being larger than groove diameter.

[MaverickNH]

OK - a bit more data in on that S&W M&P R8 Revolver:

1. Removed and cleaned cylinder well, with solvent wash. Washed Pin Gauges with solvent.
2. A 0.358 (-0.0002) Pin Gauge does NOT pass cylinder throats on all 8 cylinder bores
3. A 0.357 (-0.0002) Pin Gauge DOES pass cylinder throats on all 8 cylinder bores.

Still need:

a) 1/2 size pin gauges
b) Slug both ends of the barrel
c) Slug the cylinder throats for precision micrometer reading

[DougGuy]

You can get the best deal on pin gages from Meyer gage. Their part number for the gage you need is ZM and then the size so you might want to start at ZM3565, ZM3575, ZM3585 etc. This would get you the half sizes. I think they have a $25 minimum order and the gage pins are about $3.xx each so if you can come up with 8 or so you would qualify. You can get individual gages from Enco and of course MSC but Meyer has the best price for a small order.

http://www.meyergage.com/

[MaverickNH]

Thanks DougGuy.

Using a short series (0.3565-0.3585) of such higher quality Minus Pin Gauges (than my cheaper Chinese set) I find:

0.3585 No Go on all 8 cylinder throats
0.3580 Go on cylinder throats 1, 2, 5, 6
0.3575 Go on all cylinder throats

SO it looks like at least 0.0005 variation in throats.

1. Would it be advisable to have have cylinders reamed?
2. Would S&W care, or their specs not be that tight, even for a $1000+ Custom Shop revolver?
2. As is, would sizing to 0.358 be right?

Thanks

[Char-Gar]

Oh jeeze another guy wants to reinvent the wheel. Smith and Wesson cylinder throats have been .3575 +- .0003 for generations. Just size you bullets .357 and stop with the numbers already.

[DougGuy]

Ths single most important thing about cylinder throats is that they are all even. I send them out of here within .0002" of each other. You can always size to a light drag fit in the throats which is what you want. If a .358" will go with a drag fit in 4 of 6 throats but not 6 of 6, then the other two throats need to be lapped until they have the same drag fit on either the .358" boolit or the .358" pin gage, it matters not which. I can assist you with that if you want to send me a PM.

[dubber123]

Thanks DougGuy.

Using a short series (0.3565-0.3585) of such higher quality Minus Pin Gauges (than my cheaper Chinese set) I find:

0.3585 No Go on all 8 cylinder throats
0.3580 Go on cylinder throats 1, 2, 5, 6
0.3575 Go on all cylinder throats

SO it looks like at least 0.0005 variation in throats.

1. Would it be advisable to have have cylinders reamed?
2. Would S&W care, or their specs not be that tight, even for a $1000+ Custom Shop revolver?
2. As is, would sizing to 0.358 be right?

Thanks

Even is best. It sounds like .3575" or .358" should work decently as is, with maybe a little improvement to be had. The next big thing to determine is whether the bore is smaller than this measurement, which I bet it will be, and nearly as importantly if there is a frame constriction.

I commend you for taking the time to make your gun all it can be, rather than being happy with tin can groups at 25 yds. No they aren't all "right" from the factory.

[bayhawk2]

Maverick-I'm not a novice,but not an expert either.I will give my mistake scenario and let you decide.
I was told Ruger Blackhawks have cylinders too small for lead cast bullets.I was told to ream
the cylinder throats,so I did.Big mistake.Sizing of the cylinders and barrel are now so unmatched that I now have issues.WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE:is simply bought a bullet sizing die a couple of thousandths over the cylinder throat size.In other words,I should have sized the bullets to the cylinder.Instead I sized the cylinder throats to the bullets.It may work for some,but to me it is bad judgement,bad advise, and can ruin a fine gun.As I did.My opinion.

[Wayne Smith]

Humm, maybe I'm a little simple. I'm loading for a new to me 32 Long - S&W. I don't have pin guages and don't trust my micrometer reading. The book says .313 - I have boolits sized in a .313 die for my 32-20's - they don't fit the cylinder - go less than half way in and stick. I don't have a .312 die, but have a .311 die - size a couple of boolits. They push through the chamber and out the throat with a little effort, not much. The boolit does not enter the barrel - it is an old Lee group buy Keith 32 boolit. It stops on the shoulder in the muzzle of the gun. I figure I'm good to go - I might get a .312 die just to have a complete set but don't think I need it for this gun.

[mdi]

If you're having trouble measuring a 5 groove slug, try just sizing to the cylinder throats and shoot a few. If you're not getting any leading, you're good to go.

One way to measure odd groove slugs is to wrap the bullet, tightly, with a piece of shim stock, .002"-.004". Measure the wrapped bullet and deduct two times the shim stock thickness to get the slug diameter. Pretty accurate. I've been working (and measuring) metal since I was 12 and I can get an accurate measurement of odd number groove slugs by slowly turning the slug between the spindle and anvil while slowly closing the spindle. With a good "feel" an accurate measurement can be achieved. Works for me...

[John Boy]

I shoot Ideal 454190 bullets in my CAS revolvers. The bullets are 0.454. The cylinder throats are all uniformly recut to 0.04545 (.0005 over bullet diameter)

[Doc Highwall]

Two important things about size is the groove diameter of the barrel has to be smaller then the cylinder throats, and the closer the cylinder throats are to one another the better. When the bullets are sized for the throats of the cylinder and the gun is fired, the bullets have enough room to pass through the throats of the cylinder blocking most of the powder gasses, and when they enter the forcing cone and into the barrel (the larger bullet) will seal the barrel preventing powder gasses from jetting by and leading the barrel.

Example: I just bought a Talo Toklat in 454 Casull with a 5" barrel. With my minus set of pin gages I got the following dimensions.
all the cylinder throats will accept a .456"minus pin with no noticeable difference in looseness of the cylinder plug, all of them are very close to the same size.

All of the cylinder chambers will accept a .480" minus cylinder plug and a .481" minus only goes half way in pretty much the same for all cylinders meaning it is pretty consistent in dimensions.

The barrel slugged at .4530" right on the money, and the greatest wall thickness that I have measured on the Starline brass is .0115" down where the base of the bullet will be seated.

As you can see with the barrel slugging at .4530" I need to shoot a .4540" bullet.
Now take the .0115" maximum case wall thickness and double it to .0230" and add that to the .4540" diameter bullet and you get .4770" or .0030" smaller than the cylinder chamber I.D. of .4800"

My only problem is finding a mould that will drop a .4540" diameter bullet which I have from Al at N.O.E. that weighs 350 grains. I have not cast with this mould yet but hope to do so soon.

[Markbo]

Tag. I have questions and need to make some good measurements first.

[Doggonekid]

With my FA Mod 83 I had to cast to my cylinder. I have a .475 Linebaugh. I cast .476 could not fit the boolit in the cylinder. Resized to .475 and could not fit the boolit in the cylinder. Resized to .474 and the boolit fits. Shoots well too. I went shooting on the 1st when it was -5 below zero and the gun got so cold that it contracted enough that I could not fit the boolits in the cylinder. When I got home and everything warmed up they fit again. I only have .001 to work with.

[Doc Highwall]

Doggonekid, did you actually check the size of your cylinder throats and chambers along with slugging the barrel?

[DocSavage]

I've 3 Ruger 45 Colt revolvers and all needed to have the chamber mouths reamed. Chamber mouths were .450 .451 and bores .452 so obviously accurate left something to be desired.
Had the chambers reamed/lapped to .453 and now I get decent accuracy or at least as well I can shoot.

[Doggonekid]

Doc Highwall I never have had my cylinder throats and chambers check out. I have slugged my 1911's but not my FA. I know how to slug just never tried it on that gun. If the loads are accurate then I hate to fix something that isn't broke. When the weather is warmer I will try to work up the best load for the gun. If I cant get a good load well it is back to the old drawing board.

[DougGuy]

The easiest thing to do is slug the bore, and without even measuring the slug, see if it will go into the cylinder throats from the front. If all is correct with the throat diameters, the rifled slug you pushed through the bore should slide right into the cylinder throats. If it won't then that tells you right there the throats are smaller than the bore and probably could stand to be reamed and honed to have the gun shooting it's best. Fitment is KING, and for proper fitment, the throats should be sized slightly larger than the groove diameter of the bore, you should be able to slide the slug through them with finger pressure at the most.

[Markbo]

Doug what do you use.to slug bores. Would a Boolit hammered.lightly to expand work OK?

[Wayne Smith]

Doug what do you use.to slug bores. Would a Boolit hammered.lightly to expand work OK?

No, you need pure lead to get a true measure. Any alloy will spring back, and each alloy will do it differently.

[Markbo]

Stick on wheel weights ok?

[Wayne Smith]

Usually, but it is hard to guarantee them anymore. I go get a fishing weight that is hollow in the middle if I don't have pure.

[brassrat]

Thanks for posting, great bit of info for our twirling sixguns. :D

[Markbo]

Usually, but it is hard to guarantee them anymore. I go get a fishing weight that is hollow in the middle if I don't have pure.

Guess Ill make a trip to Academy for a few weights. ;)

[gwpercle]

Just size them .358 and go shooting.
Buying all these gauges and measuring devices , spending all that time measuring and re-measuring, agonizing and obsessing....stop the overthinking.

[Doggonekid]

Thanks Doug I will slug my bbl and then try my cylinder.

[44man]

Very best slugs I have are pure lead round balls for muzzle loaders. I use the proper size and upset them in the barrel or throats for a tight fit. Yes I can even upset in a revolver, search and you might find it.
DougGuy is right, if a bore slug will slip though throats, you are golden.
Beware of SO's, too much zinc junk in some. Hollow fishing sinkers work too but make sure you have pure lead. Big brother says lead sinkers will ruin the world. NO WW's is best. We have no idea what is in them now.

[44man]

With my FA Mod 83 I had to cast to my cylinder. I have a .475 Linebaugh. I cast .476 could not fit the boolit in the cylinder. Resized to .475 and could not fit the boolit in the cylinder. Resized to .474 and the boolit fits. Shoots well too. I went shooting on the 1st when it was -5 below zero and the gun got so cold that it contracted enough that I could not fit the boolits in the cylinder. When I got home and everything warmed up they fit again. I only have .001 to work with.
That is strange! Do you know groove size? My .476" boolit shoots great from a few freedom .475's. Have been close to 1/2" at 50 yards. I found no Freedoms with under size throats so far, over size barrels-YES. Perfection would be a .475" groove and .4765" throats.
You must measure.

[DougGuy]

Just size them .358 and go shooting.
Buying all these gauges and measuring devices , spending all that time measuring and re-measuring, agonizing and obsessing....stop the overthinking.

Really isn't overthinking anything. Honestly it matters not one whit what you size your boolits to. If the throats are smaller, they will come out the front of the cylinder at whatever your throat diameter is. You can size to .358" .359" .35whatever" but if you have .356" throats, then you are shooting .356" boolits. If the bore is .357" then there is a problem. It's been said over and over, and it is still true, fitment is KING. .001" or .002" under groove diameter don't sound much like a good fit to me!

[44man]

Really isn't overthinking anything. Honestly it matters not one whit what you size your boolits to. If the throats are smaller, they will come out the front of the cylinder at whatever your throat diameter is. You can size to .358" .359" .35whatever" but if you have .356" throats, then you are shooting .356" boolits. If the bore is .357" then there is a problem. It's been said over and over, and it is still true, fitment is KING. .001" or .002" under groove diameter don't sound much like a good fit to me!
Right on! To shoot any boolit over throat size and hope it will JUMP to groove is the most insane thing ever. Why send a .454" boolit through .452" throats if the groove is .454"? Oh, forgot, shoot dead soft.
Measuring Freedom .357's has shown all with .357" throats but some grooves to .3599". Would a .360" boolit shoot? Took 3 barrel changes to get .357" grooves. I would still like to see .3575" throats. Freedom does accurate work but do not make their own barrels.
Neither does Magnum Research but Badger makes the barrels and fit is king. .475 has .475 groove with .4765" throats. 45-70 has .458" groove and .4595" throats. I never measured the .500 JRH but a .501" boolit is perfect.
Experience with measuring all makes has shown I can rely on BFR specs but not freedom, Ruger, Colt, S&W and most others.
You really need to know.
Best to send the whole gun to Doug but it involves cost so a cylinder is easier. But if you do not know groove first, what does he do?
I feel for Doug when he gets a cylinder to fit a boolit to without knowing groove.

[Markbo]

Why? All you can do is match them to the largest cylinder throat. You know the old saying... its a lot easier to take material off than put it back on. ;)

[44man]

Why? All you can do is match them to the largest cylinder throat. You know the old saying... its a lot easier to take material off than put it back on. ;)
Not so, Doug needs groove size and only then can he make throats the right size and even. If you can't send him the whole gun, you better have correct measurements
If it comes out wrong it is your fault.
I have been a gunsmith too long to listen to what a customer says. He read it in a rag so you need to make it.

[ironhead7544]

Get the slugs from Lead Bullet Technologies. Easy to use. You can check the muzzle diameter and the bore diameter. Any restrictions will show up. You can also feel the restrictions, if any.

[Doggonekid]

I appreciate all of your advice. 44man I have seen your targets and read a lot of your posts. I consider you a learned man. I doubt I will ever reach your level. But It gives me something to shoot for. (no pun intended) I'm sure I will have fun trying and learn a lot along the way.

[Shiloh]

If the cylinders are smaller than the bore, accuracy will never be optimum.

SHiloh

[Snow ninja]

Check out the following from John Taffin; a different view on the subject...

https://americanhandgunner.com/bullet-sizing/

[DougGuy]

Good article! John Taffin "gets it."

As long as the boolit is greater than groove diameter, or at the very least even with it, you are good to go. The problem, is getting the boolit from the case mouth TO the bore, and getting it there sized to the intended diameter.

This is the part that John had been missing all those years. In the instance he cites in the article, he was shooting .451" boolits in .454" throats. His gun's performance improved dramatically when he sized the boolit to fit closer to the diameter of the throats. Bottom line, in so many words, he (and I) states that for best performance, fitment is king.

To this end it doesn't really matter if this fitment is done mechanically with a sizing die, or by pressure from firing. Either way will accomplish the goal of sizing to fit the throats. At this point is where I begin to understand that the most important part of this fitment is that the throats ALL be even with each other. I try to send them out within .0002" of each other when I do them. This is important because the throat along with guiding the boolit from case mouth to forcing cone, also regulates pressure. Smaller tighter throats cause more pressure to build than larger throats which affects how the gun recoils in the shooter's hands, which in turn affects point of impact at the target. We all know how erratic loads can be if powder charges are uneven, uneven cylinder throats provide their own level of inconsistency not much different from uneven powder charges except that they won't blow up a gun from being too tight.

When you slug all the throats and then decide to size to fit the largest throat, what logic is in this decision? If the throats are uneven in size, and you shoot a load hot enough to "bump up" the boolits until they reach throat diameter, now you are shooting several different diameters of boolits, each will affect the pressure curve accordingly, each will shoot to it's own point of aim, this is not the way to achieve anything but frustration in a gun that don't shoot as well as it COULD.

Simple is best when it comes to dimensions and fitment. For best performance, the boolit needs to be .001" to .002" greater than groove diameter, and cylinder throats need to be .0005" to .001" greater than boolit diameter. These are about the only two numbers one needs to adhere to when figuring out what to size to, what dies to buy, what boolit size to choose, etc. This is not caliber or revolver specific, it holds true with pretty much all revolvers regardless of caliber. If you are shooting cast boolits in a revolver, this is what you want to strive for. When you have this arrangement, the gun will respond with consistency, accuracy, the barrel will stay free of leading, and it will be a joy to shoot.

[44man]

Me and Taffin do not get along at all! In fact Most gun rag writers and I do not get along.
To send a .454" boolit into .451" groove is still wrong as is trying to expand a boolit to the throats.
Fit is a throat just over groove. I do have great luck with boolits under throat but at groove in my .44 and I shoot hard boolits but I have alignment and that is also FIT. A straight start is still FIT. It is why a boolit ogive better then a Keith works to clock a cylinder.
I cut my .44 cone to 11° and made my mold with an ogive to as close to that I could. it came out wrong at .430" to .431" for a .4324" throat size and .430" groove.
It pulls the cylinder so I got this at 100 off hand.159866 3/4". Then a drop test at 200 yards with a 1-5/16" group. 159867 My best group at 50 was this. 159868
Taffy has never GOT IT. My best group was 2-1/2" at 500 yards and I hit every steel ram at 500 meters with my revolver.
We have DougGuy that knows the revolver. He will fix your gun and I can tell you how to make it shoot but I have done so, so many times I am exhausted.
You can go to Taffy or us. He has NEVER, EVER made a revolver shoot like I have.
But age is hurting me so don't ask for a repeat.

[DougGuy]

When I made the John Taffin "gets it" comment, I was referring to him suddenly discovering that boolit fitment to throat diameter made quite the difference in his results with his revolver. It finally dawned on him that throat diameter and how well the boolits fit the throats actually DOES mean something!

I think you are correct in saying that .003" over groove diameter is not as good as .001" over groove diameter, and it would really depend on the alloy and boolit style that HE was shooting when the light bulb went off as well. I have a Uberti with .4565" throats, and I shoot the 454190 sized to .456" cast soft and lubed with SPG, the groove diameter is only .451" but the gun shoots GREAT and doesn't lead the bore. Harder alloy in this same gun? Maybe not so well, which would have to be tested to prove one way or the other but it works too good like it is with those huge throats to want to mess with it. I do admit to taking one look at the forcing cone and before I ever shot it the first time, I cut it to 11° and polished it out so I can say this helped with how it shoots also.

I also had a Blackhawk convertible many years ago with .456" throats that wouldn't hit the proverbial fat hog in the A** no matter WHAT boolits you stuffed in it! Ruger replaced the cylinders and sized them exactly to .4515" as I asked them to do, and they shot lights out with .451" boolits. Again, .451" groove diameter, .451" boollit, and .4515" throats, exhibiting the preferred mathematical relationship between bore, boolit, and throat size. The average expert shooter would not see any difference between .451"/.451"/.4515" and .451"/.452"/.4525" as it is such a small variable. I generally prefer .452" as a boolit size as one the exact groove size doesn't leave any extra to swage into the rifling if part of the ogive gets wiped off by the forcing cone as it clocks the cylinder.

[fredj338]

Maverick-I'm not a novice,but not an expert either.I will give my mistake scenario and let you decide.
I was told Ruger Blackhawks have cylinders too small for lead cast bullets.I was told to ream
the cylinder throats,so I did.Big mistake.Sizing of the cylinders and barrel are now so unmatched that I now have issues.WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE:is simply bought a bullet sizing die a couple of thousandths over the cylinder throat size.In other words,I should have sized the bullets to the cylinder.Instead I sized the cylinder throats to the bullets.It may work for some,but to me it is bad judgement,bad advise, and can ruin a fine gun.As I did.My opinion.
A RBH/ss in 45colt I got about 10yrs ago had 0.4505" cyl throats. It shot ok, but always leaded in the first 2". I had the cyl throats lapped to 0.452" for all. Now it doesn't lead & the accuracy is right about twice as good with lead bullets. One reason I don't have a M25 in 45colt, all the ones I have seen have huge cyl throats. May be fine with jacketed but all my rev get a lead bullet diet only.

[44man]

Taffy's light bulb had burned out filaments! He was 50 years too late to discover anything. Maybe 200 years if he ever studied a ML.
When I presented my findings and theories, he attacked me and I was promptly booted. I sneak in the back door to read and see my stuff and also Doug's being repeated.
I don't get angry about it because my purpose was always to help and here, it does my heart good to see fellas do more work for themselves to find what works.
Everything you do is a TEST and we might conflict some but if what you do works, I can also learn.
Now about boolits way too large for the bore. OK if a perfect start and even lead displacement. Thing is, that is hard to find in 5 or 6 chambers. Things get worse if you slump boolits to fit.
I have played with Keith boolits forever and found a problem with cylinder clock and uneven starts. To soften can slump the nose to a RNFP but is it slumped straight? Brass that holds a boolit in alignment or the front band in the throat does help but what if the bore is a little out?
Fellas get out of sorts if a cylinder has movement and praise a super tight revolver.
I have handled and shot many of jack Huntington's revolvers and they have more cylinder play then factory.
I worked with the RCBS SWC in my .44 with Unique and 231 for cans and I kept making the alloy harder and harder and it was at 28 and 30 BHN where super groups came in. my assumption is the shoulder holds up to cone alignment. I still do not like one large GG. My guess is Keith knew about slump and wanted lube left. I feel there is a balance issue.
My question is; what would a very hard WC do in a .38? I can't test. Will someone do it?
Lube grooves, not a wax coating. Why is a .38 WC dead soft swaged lead?

[44man]

All of you have read that a WFN is no good after 50 yards when it is twist and the velocity needed. Why are my WFN boolits accurate to 547 yards?
Take the .44 with a heavy boolit of 300+. Some say it shoots good at 900 FPS, not! Sorry it does not work so back away from 7 yards.
My pain is someone with a 300 gr + that wants no recoil so they want 1000 or 1100 FPS with Unique.
Someone always says it works but again NOT! Better look for 1300 +. I have never found a way around it.
Same with very light boolits in a .44. The rifling does not come in until 240 gr and up. The Ruger has 1 in 20" and the S&W has 1 in 18-3/4" that does not come in until 250 gr. Watch boolits through a good spotting scope and you will see it.159930
You have seen what my boolit does so here is the same at 1100 fps at 50 yards. Lucky to have any on paper.

[Markbo]

44man you done much experimenting with .45 colt? Like recommendation on weight and velocity? Either way I have a lot of slug pushing and measuring before I mess with anything. I just need to decide what I want to mess with in what order. :lol:

[DougGuy]

I won't answer that Q for 44man, he can tell you about his experience with the .45 Colt but IMO, the .45 Colt is a little more forgiving at less than magnum velocities, and something 44man pointed out to me once upon a time that I did NOT know was that the SBH was 1:20 twist and the .45 Colt was 1:16. I thought well, that explains a LOT.

*IF* a boolit needs spin to stabilize, then it would need more velocity to achieve spin from a slower twist than a faster twist. This is why the .44 doesn't shoot well at 1000fps with certain WFN boolits but the same boolits shoot great from the .45 Colt at 1000fps. A DOH! moment you betcha.

When you get to heavy for caliber WFN or RF boolits both calibers are dang near even. There is not much difference in them once you get to 300gr boolits. The same powder and primers work about equal meaning that if it sucks in the .44 it will suck in the .45 as well and if it works well in the .44 you can expect similar results with the .45 with respect to the different rates of twist.

44man and I differ on several key factors, and I haven't tried my stuff at 1/10th the yardage he has shot, but they both work good for what EACH wants to do. I hunt with mine. I like to get where the woods is so thick hell you can't see 50yds much less take a 50yd shot. Deer LOVE woods this thick. I hunt 24' above the forest floor in a climbing stand. I really don't care a whit what my RF boolit does at 100yds, but I want to know within the space of a golfball where my boolit will strike on the deer. I don't use alloy hard enough that I can't scratch it or dig a thumbnail in, I like Felix and other soft lubes, and gas checks. I like .451" bore .452" boolits and .4525" throats and a well cut 11° forcing cone with a Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring. The rest of my Rugers are stock. I do my .44 the same exact way, same boolit same alloy same school of thought just one caliber smaller.

I do not like boolits that fragment, I like a soft alloy (50/50+2%) that will expand but still be malleable and tough enough that it don't go to pieces if it hits bone. I try to run them just above supersonic when they strike the target, so I run them right at 1180 ~ 1200fps at the muzzle for deer. For hogs I use the same everything except I don't vary from a full charge of H110 or 296, I want as hard and heavy a load as I can get, and I want a little harder boolit. Lyman #2 or straight WW.

He has a totally different approach that I enjoy hearing about and also highly respect but at the end of the season? Both our freezers have plenty of meat.

There is more than one way to hit on a sweet combo and to shoot cast successfully, you *must* find that combo that works for your gun or you will only be but so proficient with it. A fella can't really expect to shoot any better than his gun will shoot, so my thinking is that it will do no harm to correct things with the gun that affect the overall performance of it and especially if you have specific boolits that you want to use, it will only help matters and hasten the process when the cylinder and the throats and the forcing cone are all dimensionally corrected, and in some cases the crown as well.

[shoot-n-lead]

there is no need to slug the barrel.

B i n g o !

[44man]

Good post Doug but we agree a lot more then you think. Yeah, the .45 Colt shoots a heavier boolit slower. I use heavy like the Lyman 325 and the LBT 335 for deer and they both work at 1160 fps.
And it also loves lighter boolits and loads for cans. I think the twist is the reason. You can cover a lot more ground with the .45.