Is there an easy way to eliminate grip and rest variance for load development?

[Whiterabbit]

Had a frustrating day at the range yesterday. Trying to get lead-free working in the BFR as well as cast, now that I have a really, really great cast load. Thing is, it took me a couple thousand rounds to figure out cast because I'm not the greatest pistolero, and I don;t get that luxury when Barnes bullets are a buck a pop.

So I started and got very promising results. Shooting at 100 yards I found a couple loads that seemed to have potential. At one point I fired four rounds which gave me two "groups" or two rounds 4 inches apart (horizontally, near perfect vertical), but each "group" the two holes are touching. So, now I'm thinking I have a load that might be so accurate the holes touch at 100 yards, and because the rest lets the gun move side to side pretty easy, I'm just getting horizontal variance.

So I loaded 4 more, and they were all over the place. It means either I fatigued out with my grip and the rest wasn't consistent enough, or I just got really lucky the first time around. And I don't have enough trigger time to know which. And I don;t have enough money to spend on $1 a piece bullets to go to the range over and over just to find out if one particular load is "it".

So I basically need to partition out grip and rest variance, then go to the range with 10 rounds or so to tell me what is what.

Thing is, I have no idea how to do that. I got away with it with cast because I got statistical population data over ALOT of shooting. I don;t have the luxury with Barnes.

How to eliminate variance from grip and rest?

[bdicki]

http://www.ransomrest.com/RansomRest.html

[ole 5 hole group]

Everybody has their own method but there are a few general basics. First off, you state you're not a pisterlo - well, the vast and I mean the vast majority aren't, so you're in good company there.

For load development with a scope at 100 yards - IMHO you need at least a 4X scope and greater power is even better. For a lot of shooters they need gridlines, that is they need a solid thin line or two parallel lines in which you can center your X-hair - and they make a + on your paper. Your vertical X-hair centers on the vertical line and your horizontal X-hair centers on the horizontal line. You can paste a small dot where the lines intersect if you wish.

The above will align your handgun. Be off, half a hair, in alignment and at 100 yards you will be inches away from your intended target.

As far as your rest, home made sandbags will do fine or anything else you chose to use just so long as you can cradle the handgun - myself I just rest the front of the frame and push the front of my trigger guard into the bag. I have another small bag to rest the off-hand lower palm, so it's comfortable and stable.

The grip must be consistent - and for load development that means the same grip placement on the handle with the same amount of pressure. Pressure to me is the same feel/discomfort/or however one wants to describe it.

That's about all there is to it but it is a skill that has to be developed to be consistent and it does take quality trigger time to obtain that skill. That skill is also perishable, as if you lay-off for awhile, well the groups will grow.;)

[JSH]

Revolver/revolter
Practice is all I can tell you. Even dry firing will help. But as mentioned above, handguns are not easy to master. And, the bigger the tougher they can be.
One can spend lots of money on a handgun and be no better than when they started or what they started with.

A ransom will take most human error out, but it is not an end all be all.
I don't see a caliber mentioned. That may be of help if some one else would happen to have same caliber, gun and projectile.
Jeff

[Scharfschuetze]

It's all about consistency and fundamentals for each and every shot. The Ransom Rest gives you this consistency mechanically, but you can come close to it as long as your grip, trigger pull, sight alignment-picture, etc. is uniform from shot to shot.

Be sure to place your BFR on the same spot on your shooting rest if you are using one and never let the base of the grip touch the bench if shooting from a bench rest.

You might try dry firing your BFR in the evening concentrating of your fundamentals. It's easy to practice and reinforce bad habits, so make sure you're on without the noise and recoil obfuscating your follow through. Remember that the BFR will move itself under recoil. You don't want to add to that movement by poor shooting fundamentals. Dry firing will help determine if there is a problem in any of the 8 steady hold factors.

You might also try a leather shooting glove that may give you a little more purchase on your BFR's grip.

[44man]

I do it all different. I rest the barrel near the muzzle on a small bag and I put the butt solid on a firm bag. Recoil will bang the rear bag so it must be back to the same pressure for each shot and you must hold the grip the same.
I will get a picture for you. The gun just does not move and hits the exact same when I shoot off hand. I will out shoot every Ransom rest ever made.

[ole 5 hole group]

Yes, that is different Jim. I tried your way many years ago - never worked for me.

Seems like our Service teams still use the Ransom rest to test different lots of ammunition prior to purchasing the ENTIRE lot if they found it to be worth purchasing and those teams have the best shooters in the Nation and some are the best in the world. I would think they would know something about the Ransom rest but if you can out-shoot a well set-up Ransom rest properly operated - so be it, I can't.

[35 Whelen]

This is certainly a problem especially when shooting larger calibers with more recoil.
My first solution was to completely stop shooting off the bench. I did so because I found that my POI when shooting from the bench and my POI when shooting from a sitting position varied greatly. I know when shooting from the bench I had a tendency to "use" the rest to my advantage and would push the pistol down into it or push it forward in to it. This helped groups, but thats about it. So after regulating the sights off the bench on one of my fixed sight revolvers, only to find it shot MUCH higher from a field position, I quit using the bench. Besides shooting from a field position whIle testing loads is a marvelous way to become proficient with a handgun.
When shooting any type firearm one must learn to call their shots. What this means is having a mental picture of where the sights were when the revolver went off. Using this manner, one can "explain" a shot that went out of a group and therefore doesn't have to rely solely on group size as a measure of load quality. This is the method High Power competitors use.to zero their rifles with only two shots.

35W

[mart]

I have a Ransom Rest and use it a lot to test loads and handguns. It's a great tool to evaluate either but it will not make a anyone a handgun shooter. That only comes through thousands of rounds of practice and dry fire.

[MT Gianni]

Much of shooting is muscle memory and practicing without firing. Put the gun on a target every day. Follow the seam of sheetrock with an empty gun and your trigger finger away from the trigger. Follow seams up and sideways in a smooth slow motion while keeping your sights on the seam. Holding 3 lbs at the end of your hand is not a natural motion, train your muscles to like it. Do it where no one can see it and with the bbl or cylinder out if you must but the gun needs to be empty and nosy neighbors need to be clueless.
Practice moving only the trigger finger on your hand. Flex it and bend it as if you were gripping a gun, then squeeze only your trigger finger. Nothing else should move, if it dies your gun will move also.

[ole 5 hole group]

But - when developing a load for a revolver you want to verify that particular load can out-shoot you - shooting off-hand. For most, shooting a 4 inch group off-hand at 50 yards is no common feat but off a bench your handgun and load better be capable of shooting 2 to 3 inches consistently. Now some can shoot a little better but for the vast majority of shooters - a 4" group off-hand for a 10-shot group is damn good - consider yourself a pisterlo.

I've known several handgun shooters to develop very good loads from the bench - like 2/2.5" at 50 yards with their 1911's. Off-hand they could hold 4 to 6 inches for 10-shots but they jerked the trigger in my opinion and adjusted the sights accordingly. Their trigger jerk was very consistent.;) They could score 82 to 92 fairly consistently at 50 yards and I'm here to tell you that anyone else shooting their 1911 - well that 1st shot would score you zero points (-10) and if you didn't believe where that shot went, well, your second shot would be right next to it for zero points - then a wise pisterlo would hold-off accordingly.:)

Now in my 1st post some might not understand my grid talk - Here's a little better way of visualizing the grid method. Take a 2 or 3 inch black square - aim at one corner of that square, making the horizontal and vertical axis of the reticle sit on the horizontal and vertical sides of the square - doesn't matter what corner.

[44man]

I did have a different POI off hand for a while but I found it was ME. I relaxed too much and the grip I used at the bench left me.
It was so bad I took hair from the tops of the first three deer without breaking skin with my BFR .475. I even had thoughts of porting.
I was just losing control and once I figured what I wasn't doing, I have not missed a deer since.
Even with the .500 JRH, I have taken deer to 120 yards off hand.
My .44 is also sighted from bags and I did this off hand at 100 yards.150025 That is a 3/4" group.
I shoot stuff that might shred a Ransom. ALL of my revolvers are sighted from bags.

[35 Whelen]

Everybody's different. I can sight in from a sitting position and have exactly the same POI offhand at 50 yds.

35W

[Whiterabbit]

The answer is clear: Without a $500 ransom rest, there is no way to eliminate grip (or severely reduce the impact) from load development. That makes it tough. it plays a huge role in groups at 100 yards.

[35 Whelen]

The answer is clear: Without a $500 ransom rest, there is no way to eliminate grip (or severely reduce the impact) from load development. That makes it tough. it plays a huge role in groups at 100 yards.

NO! Practice. Practice. Practice. Practice. You can do it. I've been there, done that and overcame the problem.

35W

[str8wal]

There is a Ransom Rest listed in the classifieds ;-)

[Groo]

Groo here
Group shooting is all about sameness.
Do everything the same and the gun shoots the same.
For me, I put a large bag on a bench and get a 2 hand hold on the gun.
Push and rest the off hand and gun into the bag and don't let the grip touch the bench.
This is stable and has the added advantage of kicking about the same as off hand.
The difference in sight in will small.
There are some guns [ usually short single actions] that don't like the bench at all.[mine is a custom 3 3/4 41mag new vaquero.]
Also , start by shooting only one chamber, although rare now ,you can have one or more chambers not align the same and open groups.
Lastly, don't get "Too" hung up on tight groups, as long as the gun will shoot inside the target area of your game at your max range.
Shorter for some , then there is 44man [ and may be me on a "real good" day LOL] once you have the group at the distance wanted,
increase load till they open up too much as all pistols are in the lower power range compared to many rifles .
[ the increase can be due to load ,recoil, or muzzle blast and will change as you do]
My personal test is a paper plate ,5 shots at 100 yds with HUNTING ,with a bullet matched to the game ,loads from a bench =[ open sights]
then shoot till 5 shots off hand. [ a 100yd shot in ohio is long]
PS. my last trip to Thunder Ranch , I shot a 4in 357 [110grt] on a steel target [man size] at 300 yds , one shot for range, second for wind , 3 hits at 300yds using this type of hold prone.

[Whiterabbit]

NO! Practice. Practice. Practice. Practice. You can do it. I've been there, done that and overcame the problem.

35W

That's not a part of the premise. I already have a load that can do 3" at 100 yards from my hands (on a good day, most of the time I don't shoot that well). But that was a cast boolit load where I have the luxury of shooting thousands of rounds to determine where accuracy is and is not despite having good and bad shooting days. The ppoint is to be able to take twenty bullets or so and nail a load straight off. Grip is ALWAYS a concern, even for the best of us. Just like we can eliminate many factors of shooting rifles via bench rest so we can develop a good load quickly. Noone here has any recommendation (beyond a $500 ransom rest) to do so with a pistol and the grip variance.

Bottom line, I can get there grip or no, easily within 1000 rounds. I didn;t want to do that with $1 a piece bullets and was hoping for a "shortcut" (besides 50% savings via ransom rest)

So the answer still has to be the same: no shortcut without a ransom rest.

[Groo]

Groo here
If you can't get groups in 100 or so there is a problem , usually with the load or crimp.
Don't chase a bad load, what load are you trying to make?
Usually , a middle load from the manufactures manual or loading manual will hit the mark close,then move up or down as required.
Ps forget weighing the charges, if the load is so touchy that it needs to be weighed , you are using the wrong powder or are too close to the edge.
A little tip JD gave me.

[CJR]

Whiterabbit,

Here are some things that have worked with me when shooting high recoiling loads with handguns;
1. Typically, the barrel starts recoiling up before the CB exits the muzzle. So if you hold the grip tightly one time, that round will print low; likewise, if you hold the grip lightly that round will print higher.
2. Heavy recoiling handguns tend to have small factory grips. These grips require a firm grip, but as you shoot more your hand tires and your grip starts to loosen and the POI changes.
3. Larger size, two-handed grips work best for me. The larger grips, that I've made for these guns, have more surface area and require less hand force to control the gun. Likewise, your hand doesn't tire as quickly so the grip pressure/POI stays consistent for many shots.
4. I like a high hand hold on the grip. This brings my arm closer to the barrel's initial thrust force and minimizes gun torquing somewhat.
5. I let the revolver recoil naturally and do not attempt to restrict its recoil.
6. When shooting off the bench I do not let any part of the gun touch the sandbag rest. Both of my hands grip the revolver and the bottom of my hands rest on the sandbags.

This is what has worked for me since 1956.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

CJR

[44man]

This is my way. Bad picture, I had to take a picture of me out of a book. 150125 I tried the frame rests and arm rests and can't hold still, Creedmore is more stable. A Ransom will not duplicate your body either. You CAN out shoot it. I tried one at the club once with my Tender and got 2" at 50 but from bags I shot pennies and nickles at 100.
You might shoot one shot with my guns with your hands on a bag, under the grip. I have a hammer that is easier to use.

[Whiterabbit]

44man, you don't find that the gun rocks side to side easily with a rest like that?

[44man]

44man, you don't find that the gun rocks side to side easily with a rest like that?
No, the butt is solid on a bag. Nothing floats. You can hold on a 1/8" spot at 50. When it quits raining I will set a gun on bags to show better.

[TXGunNut]

Are you limited to lead-free?

[Hickory]

In the words of one of the greatest handgun shooters I've ever met, "A handgun is the easiest gun to shoot poorly, and hardest gun to shoot well. Practice as much as possible and you might get to be a fair shooter like me."

[fecmech]

The answer is clear: Without a $500 ransom rest, there is no way to eliminate grip (or severely reduce the impact) from load development. That makes it tough. it plays a huge role in groups at 100 yards.
I use 44mans method. I have a very full sand bag under the butt of the pistol that is very firm. After each shot I squeeze the bag to reposition the sand so that recoil absorption is the same. I owned a ransom some years ago and can shoot groups at 50 yds with a dot sight as well as the same gun and load did in the Ransom. If I were checking different ammo lots for accuracy I would use a Ransom also as they are quicker and don't get tired. That said, with a dot sight or scope and bags, matching a Ransom rest for accuracy is not that difficult.

[44man]

It really does work. To hold absolutely still while trigger pressure is added might be more important then anything. I can shoot a revolver easier then a rifle. Need a big, heavy BR rifle to hold as steady.
I don't know how a Ransom will hold a .475 or .500 anyway.

[Blackwater]

You're getting some very good advice from 44man, CJR and others here. Learning to shoot well is, basically, just learning to grip and hold the gun the same way each and every time. 44man undoubtedly has the very best eyesight of anyone I know, because I can't even SEE an 1/8" dot at 50 yds., but I have a friend who CAN, so I know he's telling the truth. His record also stands tall. I doubt many of us have quite his potential, and I certainly don't, but we CAN all get rather deadly, even though he may whupp up on us in a field or range match. That's always been the way shooting is, and why I've always sought out the very best shots that I can find to shoot with. My friend with the great eyesight always shaded me, but never by all that much. It's sure a motivator to shoot with someone like that. I'd suggest you do the same.

It also helps to just plain think, and pay attention to what you're doing on each outing. Many don't know what to look for, but if you pay attention consistently, you'll find all the factors that make a difference over time. Essentially, what I've found is that all the best shooters I know and have known, just simply pay attention and adjust more than the also-rans. Mostly, they simply WANT to be good shooters more than most, and consequently, pay closer attention and notice more stuff than the average shooter does. It's amazing what that simple difference can make, especially over time when applied consistently. They generally learn something from every shot, and NEVER just pop caps and send lead down range.

The best thing I can add to what you've already been told, is just to start opening your eyes and noticing things much more closely - learn to "shoot by feel" - and open your ears and mind, and TALK to the very best shooters you know, and keep in mind the simple basics of shooting: sight alignment, trigger break, follow through (not letting the muzzle move after the trigger breaks).

The only real problem you'll likely encounter is that some people are better at describing what it is that they do than others, and that means that you'll have to interpret what they say to get their results.

At the range, and in practice, try using 44man's techniques with the bags, and any other setup you find interesting, and let the TARGETS tell you what's working for you. As your skill increases, and your consistency gets better, keep experimenting, because as your skills increase, your ability to use various bag setups will change and improve. Since I am usually shooting afield, I usually rest the front of the frame on a semi-full sandbag. This, for me, keeps POI the same as when I rest my hands against an improvised rest, and also partially because I just like shooting single actions, and that angled ejector rod shroud (in the shorter barreled guns I generally prefer for field use) makes the barrel rest impossible because it tilts or cants the gun pretty severely, and I haven't found any way to deal with that effectively, so I just rest the front of the frame and support my wrists for most of my shooting.

Shooting better always winds up boiling down to the question of just how good you really WANT to get, and how good you can see those sights. And also how quickly you want to shoot, too. Shooting in an IPSC manner is a whole 'nother ball game from shooting long range silhouette, and different techniques are required, and you really DO have to learn each technique to really excel at each type of sport. This pretty much makes it a lifetime learning experience, which is a big part of why it's so much fun, and so fascinating. Nobody really masters each and every facet of shooting, but one CAN get very good at most of them. Now that I've become diabetic, I won't be able to do what I once could, but I ain't chopped liver, either. The eyes, particularly, aren't as good as they once were, and the hand's not as steady, but I'd still hate to see me shooting at me, even so. I'd also hate to be a deer and have me shooting at me, too! Or a rabbit or squirrel, etc. There's still significant satisfaction in that, at least, and I've always got those memories, and a bunch of trophies to remember "th' good ol' days."

Just keep at it, keep refining your ability to notice all the little and subtle things you're doing, and your scores on target, and your groups, will progressively tighten as you get better and better at it, and that'll make you enjoy your forays more and more as well. There's a lot of personal satisfaction in getting good with a gun of any type, but I think that's particularly so with the pistol, since it's the smallest, least powerful and hardest to shoot gun there is. The satisfaction has to be EARNED, though, and time's a'wastin', so you need to get serious about it ASAP. Asking is the first significant step, so you're already in process. Just keep it up, and LET it grow.

You can't FORCE yourself to become good. It's one of those things that you really have to LET happen by applying all the advice you've received here, and proving it in the field and at the range for yourself. NO words apply to your style and talents until YOU prove them on the range. Just make sure you understand what all is given you. Words have a way of being misinterpreted sometimes. Each shot should tell you something, and if it's not, then you're not paying close enough attention, but that's a good starting point, just realizing that. Shooting skill is like when a farmer plants his seeds. You just have to let it grow, and be a bit patient, and care for those skills all along th way to the harvest. Nobody gets really good overnight, and there are no "magic words" that can turn you into a top shot overnight. It's just like developing skill and prowess at a gym. Ya' gotta' work for it.

[44man]

Very good post Blackwater. My eyes are not good anymore and I need a lot more light to even read the most important part of the papers--COMICS!
Everything else you said is true and once you get the hang and feel of it, you can work loads with just 3 shots each, can call every shot and even tell where you hit by recoil feel. If I shoot your loads, I can tell you what primers you use in the .44.
Trigger control is so important and is why I like real light ones with no creep, off hand I never seem to be pulling the thing.
Accuracy from a good revolver is amazing and is what you need first to get good. If boolits go other then where aimed you can shoot 100 years and never be a good shot.
All my shooting starts at 50 yards or meters, (Hold over from IHMSA) but most of my shooting is 100 yards. I hate paper targets except to work loads or sight in. 25 yards will not tell you much at all. You really waste your time at close ranges.
One time at the range a guy came next to us, asked to set a target. We cleared the range, don't know why because he went 10 yards and set a huge target. Took out a SBH and could not hit paper. I asked if I could shoot his gun. I clicked settings, used my loads and shot Creedmore.
I hit a gallon jug every shot at 200 yards but he had the wood panels on it. The guard cut my knuckle to a bloody mess but I never missed.
I told him how to fix the guard. He never said much, packed his other guns up and left. Some can't be taught at all. I will bet all I have to say he is still trying to hit at 10 yards! I would have told him all I know to help but some do not want to hear.
Fear of recoil is a real thing and is hard to overcome. So is buck fever. These things are very close with the same effects.
I laugh at my friend Dave. He will poke the center out of a cardboard deer but with a real one he just points the gun out in the general direction. Noise is dangerous and shoots good groups too.
Comes to the same thing, MASH the trigger if you think you are on. Does not work.
With hundreds of archery kills and revolver kills I do not ever remember releasing or pulling the trigger. When it is right the shot is gone without thought. You should not remember pulling the trigger even with paper. If you are on target the shot should go without effort on your part.
If you are waving around off hand, ignore it and keep adding pressure until the gun goes off by itself. To make your gun fire when the sights cross the target will be a miss. About 3X more the just being off with your movements.
If you are shooting off hand at 100 and the gun goes off with your sights 2" right, you say I was a little right and your spotter says it was 2" right, You are the best shooter you will ever be.
To expect a hit every shot is dreaming. Not going to happen. But if the boolit hit where you called it, you are top of the hill. If it hit 10" left, you need to go back to the loading bench.
I can not stress how important accuracy is.

[Ola]

If you are shooting off hand at 100 and the gun goes off with your sights 2" right, you say I was a little right and your spotter says it was 2" right, You are the best shooter you will ever be.
Absolutely. In the past I shot only short distances (25 meters) and wouldn't even dream of sighting in a pistol (or revolver) off hand. After I started shooting metal (25-200 meters), I discovered it's the way to go. Nothing special in it. Just shoot and call and listen your spotter.

[Whiterabbit]

The scope of the thread crept a little bit. My take is without accurate ammunition, a shooter can never become good. Who knows if that 8" group at 100 yards is because of you or the ammo? If that is a true statement, then step 1 is making good ammunition. But how to do that? You take the shooter out of the picture. It's well documented for rifles. Not so for pistols. That was the scope. To discuss load development sans trigger time.

Or to simply suggest that it's not possible in the case of pistols to consider load development without considering practice. Which is clearly the consensus of the forum. Which should have made this a very short thread.

[Markbo]

44Man's method is recommended to me by another Internationally acclaimed shooter - David Bradshaw. He swears by it. Because of these 2 guys primarily I intend to practice at it to see if it helps. At 55 YOA and at least 1 cataract (in my dominant eye no less) open sights and 100 yard shooting may be in my past. But I still try like Hell!

My method, just so you know in case you want to try is a two handed hold, right pressing into left a little with only my wrists resting on bags. Small recoil, huge recoil doesn't matter. I have been shooting for accuracy with open sighted handguns like this for as long as I remember, but again... I intend to try it 44Man's way. May have to stick to 50 yards with open sights. I have suuuuuure come to like little red dots! :D

[44man]

Working loads is best done from bags, never off hand. Since I use only 296 I work 1/2 gr at a time, smaller amounts will not show up anything.
I see a large group and as I go up, they get smaller and then will start to expand at the same rate they shrunk. I go back to the best group load. There is no sense in 1/10 gr moves at all unless you are using a faster powder. However working with Unique, etc, I found no improvements worth messing with since 7 gr shot the same as 10.
I am old as dirt so I have trouble from bags with opens so I shoot them Creedmore, gets the sights farther from my eyes. A red dot or scope is better from bags. Old guys need stretchable arms!
It is true recoil from bags with the big guns is harsh with a lot of twist but it has not hurt me. I would say the .475 is the worst. It is worse then the .500 JRH. Much more torque.
Creedmore is very stable but you need a good blast shield. You sure do not want the gap to blast your leg. I did all my IHMSA work Creedmore and it is possible to shoot 1/2" groups at 50 meters.
I was shooting so good at one shoot, a few complained that I must have been resting on my boot tops, Red Wing boots. I did not know it but a bunch were standing behind me to watch but found nothing. I shot a 40. I never had a reason to cheat.
I love Ruger's until I found BFR's, it is a sin to miss with a BFR. But my old IHMSA Ruger will never leave me and it has over 80,000 heavy loads through it. It has no wear that can be measured because of using STP on it.
I have shot many, many, many super expensive revolvers and customs and not a one has been better. They only mean you spent too much for nothing.

[williamwaco]

44man. You need some clip-on reading glasses. They will make your arms a foot longer.

[44man]

44man. You need some clip-on reading glasses. They will make your arms a foot longer.
Yeah, I have a bent cardboard "V" to put on my nose under the glasses to raise them at the bench.
Still have to see the target.

[williamwaco]

Yeah, I have a bent cardboard "V" to put on my nose under the glasses to raise them at the bench.
Still have to see the target.


Have you seen this:

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/ear-eye-protection/shooting-glasses/hawkeye-shooters-optic-aid-prod19702.aspx

You can make a free one from a small piece of electrical tape.

[44man]

Have you seen this:

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/ear-eye-protection/shooting-glasses/hawkeye-shooters-optic-aid-prod19702.aspx

You can make a free one from a small piece of electrical tape.
I had the Merit one but it was stolen from my shooting box. Getting it in the right position was a chore but it worked. Darn thing was like $50 at the time. I can't afford a new one.
Getting tape right would not be easy and you get sticky junk on your glasses.

[Ola]

Those "shooters optic aid" -thingies are evil. Using one is like using anabolic steroids in athletics. :-D
It is un-natural to see clearly at 100 yards when the eye is focused on front sight..

(yes, I know, someday I'll need one. But not yet.)

[Whiterabbit]

I have the merit. It is very interesting. I agree with the two points here: they are hard to adjust to just the right spot, but that they are amazing at increasing depth of field. However, I have a third perspective to submit. When I used it in my musket club monthly shoots, my scores did not change one bit. Therefore, despite the clear apparent benefit of focus and depth of field, I have not seen that translate to better shooting.

[44man]

Could be the gun. Is it a musket with a Minie' ball? or a smooth bore? I found the Minie' MUST be a tight thumb push fit to the bore. I lapped molds so a gun that would not hit a 4'x4' board at 50 could hit the 200 meter gong every shot.
I went with a friend often to the North, South skirmish shoots at Winchester. I never seen such a poor bunch of shooters in my life.
My friend made sling swivels for the old muskets, etc. He sold them by the thousands. Why they were missing and in so much demand baffled me. He had huge orders from Sutlers row. He like the wire from political signs.
He must have had several thousand original civil war guns, closets full and the walls in his house were lined with them, also the garage walls. I got to shoot many of them and worked on a lot of them. He had bayonets and parts everywhere.

[williamwaco]

I had the Merit one but it was stolen from my shooting box. Getting it in the right position was a chore but it worked. Darn thing was like $50 at the time. I can't afford a new one.
Getting tape right would not be easy and you get sticky junk on your glasses.

Not if you put it on your clip on reading glasses and just leave it.

[Whiterabbit]

Could be the gun.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99883&d=1395166184

Probably not the gun.

(50 yards, before the sights were regulated)

[44man]

Just us geezers, I guess! :bigsmyl2:

[williamwaco]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99883&d=1395166184

Probably not the gun.

(50 yards, before the sights were regulated)


Must have a crooked barrel.
Send it to me and I will "fix" it for you.

[Whiterabbit]

not a snowballs chance in.... well, you know.

Although that would make the "geezers" in the musket club very happy!

[dead dog]

Lyman sells a Hawkeye optic aid for 21.50. Has a little rubber suction cup that sicks on your glasses.