welding on muzzle device

[roysha]

According to what I read over on AR15.com the pinning and welding of a muzzle device on a less than 16" barrel is no longer considered legal. It must be welded directly to the barrel. As I understand it, even silver solder is not acceptable.

I had thought of just buying one of the cheap 110 wire feed welders for the occasional muzzle device weld on, but after reading the posts in the equipment discussion section, I am rethinking that.

So my question is, what do you folks do?

[NavyVet1959]

I built my ARs as a handgun first so that I can legally convert them from handgun to rifle as the need arises.

My experience with the wire feed flux core welders has not been good. I got a lot of splatter that was more difficult to clean up than a stick welder. Not that I would recommend a stick welder for use an on a firearm. :)

I've not heard of any ATF ruling on this. Maybe it is a local law somewhere? I could see some leftist place like CA or NY having some stupid rule like this.

Before you take a welder to a barrel, you probably should check with the ATF to see if it is really true. I would not automatically assume that something posted on AR15.com would be correct unless they had links to documents on the ATF website confirming this.

[LAGS]

The BATF would not let me Weld a Cutts Compinsator on to a Shotgun barrel that I have that has a Buldge starting at 17 1/2 inches.
I was going to cut the barrel off at the start of the Buldge, then Weld the Compinsator on to bring it back to 18" so it would be legal.
They told me.The Barrel has to be 18" and we dont care if you weld on 20 feet of pipe, the barrel has to be 18" or regester it as a SBS and pay the Tax.
Any one want to buy a Berreta AL-2 28" modified choke barrel that has a Buldge in it. I still have it.
I had to buy a new Barrel.
They seem to flip flop back and forth on this issue.
But it seems like if you cut off a barrel , they wont let you weld something on to it.
But if the barrel was less than 16" on a rifle, Manufactured that way when it was imported, then they allow the importer to weld on a Break to make it Legal to import.
IE; the CZ -58 imported by CZ-USA

[KCSO]

You can press out the bulge with dies and a press. I do it all the time.

[NavyVet1959]

The BATF would not let me Weld a Cutts Compinsator on to a Shotgun barrel that I have that has a Buldge starting at 17 1/2 inches.
I was going to cut the barrel off at the start of the Buldge, then Weld the Compinsator on to bring it back to 18" so it would be legal.
They told me.The Barrel has to be 18" and we dont care if you weld on 20 feet of pipe, the barrel has to be 18" or regester it as a SBS and pay the Tax.

Well, you can't cut the barrel off while it's attached to the shotgun since by doing that, you technically have a SBS until you weld the barrel extension on it. The ATF pointed out something similar with respect to short barrels on AR pistols and switching them to rifles -- you have to do it in a certain order so that at no time during the process have you inadvertently created a SBR. I have to wonder if when you contacted the ATF, the person that reviewed it thought that you were going to cut the barrel off while it was still attached to the rest of the shotgun.

[LAGS]

No, the BATF Knew the Barrel was Off the shotgun and down at a gunsmith shop to be cut of and welded.
I had the action at my house while I was on the phone to them.
They figured out the closest shop to me and called them and told them not to do it.

I looked into fixing the barrel.
I would have to take the Vent rib off, make a Mandral, and then borrow a lathe to roll out the buldge.
I might also have to take off the Gas Port too depending how I had to chuck up the barrel and set up the roller.
Then solder the rib back on and reblue it.
It is also a Chrome lined Bore
All that , Exceded the cost of the new Barrel.
And I would always be worried about a weak point in the barrel since it is a Semi Auto and it is just forward of the Gas Port

[wonderwolf]

https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download First page even, I'm still looking for recent "ruleings" but can't seem to find anything the OP may be talking about. I've always had muzzle devices tig welded in place. I also know of several people who have 14" rifle match rifle barrels with long bloob tubes on that are permentatly attached for sight radius and weight purposes. Not a shotgun I know but still. As far as shotguns go and anything else for that matter I would say follow what is IN WRITING as per ATF's site and the most updated info. Anything they tell you over the phone is suspect esp if you are not recording it at the time. This a government agency we are talking about here who is self regulating and decides when we are criminals or not just by the whim of their definitions and rulers.

[LAGS]

But for them to call the gunshop who was doing the cutting and welding was strange.
Them cutting and welding on the compinsator was not Illegal.
But for me to get it back from them, when I posessed a shotgun receiver that it fit, made it illegal for me to own.

I had a Mauser Barrel that was shot.
So I cut it off to 10" long to use as a mandral to hold my receivers when I polished them.
That was not Legal untill I drilled a hole equal to the bore size thru the side of the chamber so it could never be fired, since I was screwing it back on to a receiver, even temporarly.
They get real funny about that kind of stuff.

[wonderwolf]

But for them to call the gunshop who was doing the cutting and welding was strange.
Them cutting and welding on the compinsator was not Illegal.
But for me to get it back from them, when I posessed a shotgun receiver that it fit, made it illegal for me to own.

I had a Mauser Barrel that was shot.
So I cut it off to 10" long to use as a mandral to hold my receivers when I polished them.
That was not Legal untill I drilled a hole equal to the bore size thru the side of the chamber so it could never be fired, since I was screwing it back on to a receiver, even temporarly.
They get real funny about that kind of stuff.


From their own written definition it was legal for you to posses the barrel so long as it met the OAL requirement using their method of measurement. The individual agent on the phone may have been projecting his/her interpretation of their law in not fully understanding it (as often does happen). Use their current on the books laws as your guide, over the phone conversations or advise from online sources that say "atf says this is a no-go anymore" can get you in a load of trouble at some point. Also avoid asking ATF ANYTHING, if its not in their book talking to them may give them something else to try and regulate and if it is in the book it should be pretty clear what you can and can not do.

[LAGS]

Yea, I have done things with them in writing before, like the Knife pistol.
They would not say it was Legal, or illegal.
Only that it Qualified as a Handgun , because it had a Rifled Barrel, and was intended to be shot with one hand, and the grip line was lower than the line of the barrel..
But if push came to shove, they could quickly classify it as an AOW in a heartbeat, becaise it can be mistaken for something else like a Cane Gun or Pen Gun doesnt look like a gun.
They call those Gadget Guns, and it can be anything that doesnt look like a Gun.
To cover my butt, I took a copy of that Letter, and mailed it to myself, and have it UNopened with the postmark still on it for the date. Poor man's Copyright

[John Taylor]

The BATF would not let me Weld a Cutts Compinsator on to a Shotgun barrel that I have that has a Buldge starting at 17 1/2 inches.
I was going to cut the barrel off at the start of the Buldge, then Weld the Compinsator on to bring it back to 18" so it would be legal.
They told me.The Barrel has to be 18" and we dont care if you weld on 20 feet of pipe, the barrel has to be 18" or regester it as a SBS and pay the Tax.
Any one want to buy a Berreta AL-2 28" modified choke barrel that has a Buldge in it. I still have it.
I had to buy a new Barrel.
They seem to flip flop back and forth on this issue.
But it seems like if you cut off a barrel , they wont let you weld something on to it.
But if the barrel was less than 16" on a rifle, Manufactured that way when it was imported, then they allow the importer to weld on a Break to make it Legal to import.
IE; the CZ -58 imported by CZ-USA
Several years back the LA sheriff"s dept. decided to upgrade all their shotguns. All the old shotguns they had been shortened to 16". I got a call from their gunsmith to make brakes that could be silver soldered on the barrels to make them legal so they could be sold. I think it depends on who you talk to at ATF to get the answer you want. If a piece of steel tube is welded to the barrel it becomes the barrel, it can not be removed without cutting it off.

[NavyVet1959]

Several years back the LA sheriff"s dept. decided to upgrade all their shotguns. All the old shotguns they had been shortened to 16". I got a call from their gunsmith to make brakes that could be silver soldered on the barrels to make them legal so they could be sold. I think it depends on who you talk to at ATF to get the answer you want. If a piece of steel tube is welded to the barrel it becomes the barrel, it can not be removed without cutting it off.

That brings up an interesting scenario. A rifle barrel must be 16" long. If you port the barrel, it is still the same length as it was prior to the porting, so drilling some holes or cutting some slots in the barrel does not alter it's length. What happens if you cut so many slots that the bottom 3/4 of the barrel totally disappears and there is just a long spike left of the top of the barrel?

Also, if the barrel is curved (as some people have tried over the years for being able to shoot around corners), is the barrel length measured linearly along the major axis of the firearm or is it measured along the curve? If measured along the curve, then could you then take that long spike that is left at the top of the barrel and curl it up? Just thinking outside the box... Looking for boundary conditions... Kind of like the VW engineers did recently... :)

http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/uploads/dcorb/images/2010-03-29_205203_Image3.jpg

[DougGuy]

Look up a welder who can TiG weld on your barrel. Someone local who does this stuff all the time will have all the tools AND the knowledge/experience which is a very important component that they do NOT pack in the box with the Harbor Freight welder..

Craigslist, Facebook, Google, I promise there is someone near you that is set up to do this kind of welding. You will get a first class job done with none of the expense and headaches of investing in an overseas made piece of......

You could even SEND the barrel in the mail if needed..

[Geezer in NH]

Remember this, When BATFE wants to test your weld they will use a hydraulic press and a 6 foot long pipe wrench maybe with a handle extender and a heat wrench. When not holding YOU get to go to jail not them.

Play stupid stuff have super money for real good lawyers and an attitude that will help you in prison. THEY DO NOT PLAY.

[John Taylor]

Please don't weld on a rifle barrel. All welds shrink and there will be a tight spot in the bore.

[EMC45]

I had a Maddi AK years back and it had a collar welded right at the muzzle to prevent a brake being put on. 2 big booger welds on either side of the muzzle. Shot like garbage. Shot like an open cylinder 12ga at the 25y line. Sprayed bullets everywhere. I guess the last thing the bullets touched was a warped area or damage to the metal and it showed in the way the gun shot.

[flint45]

I don't even want to call them any more. Don't trust them! rifle 161/2 in. solid steel shotgun 18 in. solid steel or I don't touch it.

[Beef15]

OP, if you ever come back, look up the NFA handbook published online by the BATFE, look at the weapons definitions, it clearly states that permanently attached muzzle devices can be used to make a weapon non-NFA, and then for both rifles and shotguns list what permanent entails: fusion welding, silver solder, or blind pin with the head welded over.

[Geezer in NH]

OP, if you ever come back, look up the NFA handbook published online by the BATFE, look at the weapons definitions, it clearly states that permanently attached muzzle devices can be used to make a weapon non-NFA, and then for both rifles and shotguns list what permanent entails: fusion welding, silver solder, or blind pin with the head welded over.
Just so long as they don't come off. Play if you want I will pass.

[Hueyville]

I weld on muzzle devices weekly for someone. A flux core MIG from home improvement center is going to splatter and make a mess. That said, have two MIG's running on gas, a flux core MIG, two stick and a TIG. Do all my devices with my Millermatic 252 now. Also never weld the complete circumference. Rules say four equidistant spot welds are enough. I add a crush washer to properly align and tighten device then put a solid tack on crush washer top, bottom and each side that bleeds just a tad onto device and barrel. If ever want to change device, four quick touches with a die grinder and device comes off with almost no visual issues to barrel or device. Since usually just swapping a flash hider to a suppressor mount, another crush washer and four tacks in same place and can change device every month without messing up barrel or devices.

I hate drilling into thinnest part of barrel, right at crown where accuracy can be hurt easily to put pin through threads. Have one 12.5 " short barrel AR with 4" device built from spare parts out of junk bos had pinned, welded and refinished so well that one range officer and one law enforcement officer tried to remove as swore was not permanently attached. Now in addition to pinned and welded it has four nice tack welds just to keep jerks from twisting on my muzzle device. A good MIG machine or even a good stick welder with proper rod will make a nice looking tack weld that when finish and touched up looks nice but eliminates questions from nosy law enforcement. Keep a 14.7" AR in a lock of every truck I own. Just built three 14.7" AR's in 6.8 spc II and put the 223/5.56 truck rifles in the vault. My 90 grain Gold Dots and 110 grain Barnes Solids loads hit like a sledgehammer. Currently own four 223/5.56, three 6.8's and two 5.7x28 AR's with 14.5" or 14.7" barrels all spot welded with my Millermatic except for two of the older 223/5.56 which were tacked with stick welder with arc stabilizer. All look slick.

[destrux]

The BATF would not let me Weld a Cutts Compinsator on to a Shotgun barrel that I have that has a Buldge starting at 17 1/2 inches.
I was going to cut the barrel off at the start of the Buldge, then Weld the Compinsator on to bring it back to 18" so it would be legal.
They told me.The Barrel has to be 18" and we dont care if you weld on 20 feet of pipe, the barrel has to be 18" or regester it as a SBS and pay the Tax.
Any one want to buy a Berreta AL-2 28" modified choke barrel that has a Buldge in it. I still have it.
I had to buy a new Barrel.
They seem to flip flop back and forth on this issue.
But it seems like if you cut off a barrel , they wont let you weld something on to it.
But if the barrel was less than 16" on a rifle, Manufactured that way when it was imported, then they allow the importer to weld on a Break to make it Legal to import.
IE; the CZ -58 imported by CZ-USA

The reason that's illegal isn't because of how you extended it, but rather it's because you cut the barrel off in order to extend it. The moment you cut the barrel you illegally create an unregistered SBS. Fixing it afterward by extending the barrel permanently doesn't erase the fact that you already created an illegal SBS. There is a legal way to do this that involves sending the damaged barrel out to be extended so possession is no longer a factor when it's cut during the repair.

Sorry I just noticed someone else beat me to it.

[M-Tecs]

Short barrels are not a controlled or regulated until they are attached to a rifle or a shotgun action. If it is attached onto an action not designated as a short barrel or handgun you have now created a short barreled firearm.

[Shiloh]

I don't even want to call them any more. Don't trust them! rifle 161/2 in. solid steel shotgun 18 in. solid steel or I don't touch it.

+1

Shiloh