Carrying a Tokarev, it's like an improved 1911

[preparehandbook]

As you may have guessed, I carry a Tokarev, specifically a Zastava M57A. My carry load is the PPU 86 grain JHP.

I personally feel the Tok is an exceptional carry gun, like a thinner, better, 1911.

I have a few tokarevs but I carry the M57A because of it's great safety, which is drop safe and allows cocked and locked carry (locks the firing pin and trips the disconnector). The 9 round mag and captive recoil spring doesn't hurt either.

Mine is mostly stock. Besides general tuning, the magazine safety is removed, I have a tuned hammer group, and I am using the slightly shorter firing pin out of a 9mm Zastava.

You're probably wanting me to justify my "improved 1911" views... and I will. FIrst off, know that I am not a 1911 hater. To the contrary, I enjoy working on them and carried one for years. It is my love for the 1911 that made me love the Tok.

First lets clear up some misconceptions:



The Tok and the 1911 share the exact same John Browning short recoil system.
It is not a "simplified 1911" as is commonly said. This misconception is due to the vestigal locking lugs on the bottom of the barrel, left there to cut one machining step and to add strength. (they are removed on the compact models)
Though the Tok looks like a 1903 pocket hammerless or the Fn Model 1903, the similarities are purely cosmetic.
The half cock (more of a 1/4 cock) safety is solid and dependable, when in good condition. The poor reputation is from 60 year old surplus examples that are well out of spec. Smiths in the com bloc countries have a test fixture for this.
7.62x25 does not overpenetrate... Assuming you aren't using FMJ. As a matter of fact JHPs hit the FBI spec sweet spot of 12" to 16" of penetration, while carrying a potent 560 foot pounds of sweet justice. Of course if you shoot FMJ, especially milsurp, you will experience deep penetration, same as any other FMJ.
7.62x25 is not naturally inaccurate. This myth is furthered by people who are feeding 60 year old ammo through old corroded sewer pipe bores. Decent ammo or handloads running through a decent barrel deliver excellent accuracy enhanced by a very flat trajectory.


So, why did I switch to the Tok as a carry gun over my beloved 1911?



Much more compact. Even the full sized Tokarev is quite a bit thinner and shorter than the 1911. I pocket carry the longer handled M57A variant in carharts.
Accuracy. I've spent a lot of time and money tuning up a 1911 to punch tight groups, but a $200 Tok will outshoot many 1911s, and easily match some very high dollar examples (looking at you Kimber).
Price. I sold one nice 1911 and bought 4 Tokarevs and a bunch of spares.
Low recoil. Nuff said.
Very flat trajectory.
Reliability. The bottle necked round and modular feed lips make for dead reliable feeding regardless of nose shape, without throating or polishing.
Easy caliber conversions. I can switch between 7.62x25, 38 super, 9x23 winchester, 9mm in seconds. For all but 9mm it is a barrel & spring swap. The 9mm uses a different mag.
Removable hammer group! As quick as a field strip I can swap out the unitized hammer, sear, disconnector assembly. I have a few spare hammer groups, target trigger, half cock removed, a carry group. I paid about $25 each for them.
Great holster selection. Ok, this is not really a difference, as Toks fit in most 1911 holsters (I haven't tried kydex).
Power. Most 7.62 loads beat .45 by 150 foot pounds. A hot 9x23 is almost 50% more powerful than .45 acp.
Penetration. If you want penetration, the heavy jacketed and/or steel cored stuff does what it was designed to... Provides a nice hole through 30" of meat, or 12" after defeating IIa armor.


In conclusion:

The 1911 in .45 is a fantastic gun with great potential, and if you pay for a great example, you will get great performance. But the Tokarev does a great job for a lot less money, and performs better in stock configuration.

[Combat Diver]

If it works for you then by all means carry it, good read but still not sold :D

CD

[Artful]

Which explains why the russian military are still using it
- oh wait - they quit, but then we quit carrying the 1911
9x19 seems to be ruling the day w/ 40 S&W coming up on
the outside.

Bottom line carry what makes you happy. I trade off guns
when I open carry, I just for fun put on my CZ-52 or Nagant 1895.

[jrayborn]

I agree with everything. I too carry the TOK ever since folks seem to feel wearing body armor and shooting movie-goers is the latest "cool thing". I like the M57A for all the reasons the OP mentioned. Great choice!

[Kevinakaq]

I have been eyeing the TOK's myself lately as another caliber to try out. Romanian models available from surplus suppliers but would rather have a Polish. Supposedly they are better finished. Ymmv. Hate that importers have added the safety...still extremly tempted...

nice write up.

[GhostHawk]

I don't carry, not much need for it in Fargo North Dakota.

But I do have a 7.62x25 in a Cz-52 next to my chair.
Now I'll be honest, I do prefer my SA 1911 at the range. Mostly because it is easier to find brass.
If I am paying attention, both are capable of about the same accuracy.

As to body amour, shoot em in the eye. Funny most people don't seem to have much their.
At inside my house ranges, should be no sweat.

Not to mention that IMO a pistol is for helping you get to your shotgun!

Outdoors, well if they are running you better let them run.

Overall I like the cartridge, it is fussy to make brass, and fussy to reload, but it is doable. Once I got enough extra cash ahead I just bought 250 rounds of jacketed round nose for practice.
Low recoil makes it quick to get a follow up shot, but it does have a wicked bark.

[preparehandbook]

...would rather have a Polish. Supposedly they are better finished...

I also think the polish have a better finish, I like the early style ball milled slide serrations they have too. They are usually a bit more worn, but springs and such can be replaced.

Oddly, the smoothest TT I have is a Norinco that was originally 9mm (model 213), it's action is as smooth as glass.

[NavyVet1959]

Romanian models available from surplus suppliers but would rather have a Polish.

OK... Color me "curious", but I had to look it up... Are Romanian models better than Polish models?



Too close to call, but I'm willing to do further research on the matter... :)

I don't have any Tokarev firearms and I don't think I ever will, but as they say, "never say never"...

[Petrol & Powder]

Good write up by the OP.

It's easy to get caught up in style over function and lose sight over what a tool is really for.

The OP makes several good points including the fact that a TT-33 is relatively thin, chambered for a potent cartridge and it's very reliable. The modular hammer/sear assembly that can be easily removed and cleaned (or even replaced) in the field is seen in other pistols like the SIG P210 and the French M.A.S. 1950 pistol. The all steel construction is both strong and inexpensive to machine due to its simple layout.
The greatest strength of the TT-33 and its variants may be its low cost. A $100 hammer doesn't drive nails any better than a $20 hammer and if you need a hammer (or a gun), it is far more important that it is available and it works as opposed to how good it looks. It is that function over all else that makes guns like the Glock and the Tokarev attractive self defense tools. The quality of the TT-33 is rooted in its functioning and low price.

Speaking of quality; Stalin was a despicable human but he had a very pragmatic approach. The phrase: "Quantity has a Quality all its own" has often been attributed to Stalin although it is unlikely he authored that phrase. Regardless of the original author of that concept, it has real merit. Soviet weapons were never designed to be pretty or refined; they were designed to be rapidly produced at low cost and to function in any environment. The TT-33 is a classic example of that philosophy. While the TT-33 and its Yugoslavian cousin the M57A wouldn't be my choice there can be no doubt that the Tokarev is an inexpensive, rock solid and reliable tool.

[preparehandbook]

OK... Color me "curious", but I had to look it up... Are Romanian models better than Polish models?...

All those ladies seem pretty scrawny.

[9.3X62AL]

I have played around with the 7.62 x 25 cartridge for about 25 years now, having both a ChiCom Type 54 Tokarev and a CZ-52 to run them through. The caliber can have excellent accuracy with good bullets, and shoots VERY flat--it is a first-rate varmint whacker, and I have taken rats and jacks in the hundreds with it. The Tok is a flat, readily concealable pistol all right--but that isn't a venue I have used it for. It has been a fun toy for field work, and that is enough for me.

[Combat Diver]

I still come across Soviet pistols in my world travels.

1949 TT33 and 1982 Makarov, Iraq 08'
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Soviet_guns_1949_TT33_and_1982_Mak.JPG

But I still get issued M1911A1s. This picture is from Afghanistan in Dec 14'. Bottom center is the one I had signed out and is in Condition 1 just out of the holster for the photo.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Remington_Rands.JPG


CD

[Dutchman]

My first exposure to a Tokarev was 1968 and it was a ragged Russian TT33 brought home from Vietnam. It wasn't much to look at but it had ~virtue~ in it's design.

My only Tokarev is the Polish TT33 which I bought when they were first imported, in "new" condition, and yes with the added safety. Toks are very interesting pistols. My two objections are the grip angle is too close to 90 degrees and the grip length is too short for my hands. The span from pinky to thumb is 9" and the width of my hand across the knuckles is 4". Its just not real comfortable for me like the Colt Gov't which I normally carried. I agree it is one hellacious handgun.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rwbrsrfbwwkbggfxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/rbgdsrqqfxgtrbrdbg/4/28344/12582412/photo-vi.jpg

The Russians were introduced to the FN 1903 due to a Moscow police contract for them. The Russians must've liked the ergonomics of the FN, at least Mr.Tokarev did, to use it as a guide when re-designing it into the Tok TT models. The FN is caliber 9x20mm Browning Long. This one below is a Swedish m/1907 army issue. They are blow-back so they don't have the ~whomp~ the 7x62x25 has.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,wdtrfgwdrdfsqdxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/ttkfrrwfxdgfbgfstr/2/28344/157842/005-vi.jpg

[6bg6ga]

If it works for you then by all means carry it, good read but still not sold :DCDI have to agree with the above post. I'm not sold either. Too many years with a 1911 to set it on the shelf. Its my carry gun 95% of the time.

[6bg6ga]

With respect to the young ladies..... Polish only and please send three bottles of ******.

[Tackleberry41]

I like the tokarev, friend says I like weird stuff. Only issue with them is lack of ammo. Its rare to find at a gunshow. Last one I went to I bought the only 2 boxes in the place. And if you do find ammo, its gonna be FMJ. I would very much worry about penetration with the 7.62x25, and the fact even being a pistol, very likely to hit someone behind your target. Now if they made some factory HP to use for carry be different. I know Wolf supposedly makes some HP, but I have never seen any. Those 90gr XTP will really do a job at that kind of velocity, but probably not wise to use handloads in a carry gun.

I wish Wolff still sold higher weight springs for tokarevs. The factory one works fine, just be nice if they didn't send the brass into low orbit. I have a 1911 in tokarev, w a 24lbs spring they are way easier to recover, and not afraid to run hotter ammo in it.

[Skipper]

http://www.slickguns.com/category/ammo?caliber=9

[bruce drake]

My Tok33 (Romy) is my summer-weight IWB carry pistol. I use Lee's 93gr RN .311 mold and cutdown and reformed Lake City 5.56 cases and the recoil and accuracy is very nice compared to my heavier 1911s. Fun to shoot and accurate is an understatement. Polish Milsurp are flamethrowers out of this pistol so I no longer shoot the milsurps stuff but I'm sure it would be very deadly with a 100gr Hornady hollowpoint as well.

But to say its an improved 1911...nope. Two different trains of thought despite the Browning heritage of the Tok.

[preparehandbook]

I know Wolf supposedly makes some HP, but I have never seen any.

I wish Wolff still sold higher weight springs for tokarevs.

Wolf JHP is actually Privi Pastisan in a wolf box. It is headstamped PPU. I have a couple hundred rounds, enough for carry forever, but eventually I'm going to have to start loading the XTP for a little more advanced bullet design.

I wish I could remember where I got my heavier springs. I think I still got them from wolf, but not specifically made for the Tok.

[preparehandbook]

But I still get issued M1911A1s. This picture is from Afghanistan in Dec 14'. Bottom center is the one I had signed out and is in Condition 1 just out of the holster for the photo.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Remington_Rands.JPG


CD

Those are some sweet 1911s

[spfd1903]

Just did some penetration experiments with three separate projectiles through a Polish Tokarev. A Hornady #3100, 86 grain SP, Hornady 90 grain Hp/xtp (#31000), and a gas checked Lee 309-113-F. The 3100 went 8" into a wet pack without deforming the nose. The 31000 went 5" without opening up the hp. The Lee went completely through the 11" pack. Don't know the velocities, but each was loaded for the smallest group at 15 yards. The pistol came with one mag and works perfect with that mag. All other mags will fit but after the second round the third and subsequent rounds lack a quarter inch of going into battery each firing.

[Tackleberry41]

Wolf JHP is actually Privi Pastisan in a wolf box. It is headstamped PPU. I have a couple hundred rounds, enough for carry forever, but eventually I'm going to have to start loading the XTP for a little more advanced bullet design.

I wish I could remember where I got my heavier springs. I think I still got them from wolf, but not specifically made for the Tok.

What I read Wolff did offer other springs at one time, but quit.

[RG1911]

Interesting thread.

I've just had a bit more work done on my Yugo M57 Tokarev variant for use as a carry piece. This involved sleeving the barrel bushing to remove what I felt was excessive play. Earlier, I had eliminated the magazine safety and done a full fire control system re-work to get the pull down to a reasonable 5 pounds. Did a little tightening of the slide to the frame. Due to some nerve damage in my hand, I also had a trigger shoe made to widen that rather narrow trigger. I now can pop off as many rounds as I want in complete comfort.

It does still shoot about 6 inches above point-of-aim at 25 yards, so modifying or replacing the front sight will happen a bit further down the road.

Cheers,
Richard

[NavyVet1959]

It does still shoot about 6 inches above point-of-aim at 25 yards, so modifying or replacing the front sight will happen a bit further down the road.


Or just move your target further back... :)

Aim *low* center of mass? :)

[Mytmousemalibu]

For some expanding bullets for the Tokarev, I chose the 90gr Sierra Sports Master JHC. They are a .311 bullet for the .32H&R Mag but a smear of lanolin or Imperial and they run through a Lee sizer die just fine and come out perfect. I'd like to slam some into some ballistic gel.

[preparehandbook]

Interesting thread.

I've just had a bit more work done on my Yugo M57 Tokarev variant for use as a carry piece. This involved sleeving the barrel bushing to remove what I felt was excessive play. Earlier, I had eliminated the magazine safety and done a full fire control system re-work to get the pull down to a reasonable 5 pounds. Did a little tightening of the slide to the frame. Due to some nerve damage in my hand, I also had a trigger shoe made to widen that rather narrow trigger. I now can pop off as many rounds as I want in complete comfort.

It does still shoot about 6 inches above point-of-aim at 25 yards, so modifying or replacing the front sight will happen a bit further down the road.

Cheers,
Richard


I just swapped bushings this morning, thought mine had a little play and the gun is still shooting low as well.

[Kevinakaq]

OK i am convinced...finally got around to submitting my c&r paperwork yesterday. When approved this will be my first purchase using my c&r.

[jrayborn]

I cannot think of a better first :)

[MtGun44]

I have a CZ52, but would not choose that cartridge for self defense. Calling
it "potent" seems slightly ridiculous. Not that I want to get shot with one, but
I don't want to get shot with a .22 Short, either. A fast moving tiny bullet
isn't all that effective, esp FMJ. Soldiers using .30 Carbines regularly
complained that they didn't stop well, the .30 carbine is a very similar bullet
and going even faster.

Nobody ever complained that the 1911 with FMJ didn't stop well. Add in a
230 Gold Dot and you have the best of both worlds. Very likely to open to
80 caliber, but even if it doesn't open at all --- still .45 cal and 230 grains,
like military ball.

[JHeath]

I would complain that 230 fmj doesn't stop well. I put at least 4, probably 5 of them into a charging badger who still almost reached me. I'd rather try a 30-cal 110 jsp at almost twice the velocity, which the Tok can do.

[bruce drake]

Folks...We re getting into that age old discussion of slow and big versus fast and light... I like both. ;)

[JHeath]

I'm not an advocate of small and fast, but I don't laugh off the Tok. Hand loaded, it's only at the level of a .327 or hot 32-20 or a .30 carbine. But those will launch a bullet similar in weight to 9mm/115 and 300fps faster.

I share the OP's like for the Tok package, crude though it is compared to the 1911s available. And one unfavourable experience left me disillusioned with 230 fmj or any big slow round-nose bullet.

Small and fast? It's relative. I shot another badger from 6 or 8 feet away in deep grass (surprise meeting!) with a .280 Rem 165. That's 66% the weight of a .45, but three times the velocity. That badger didn't go anywhere.

I don't think the Tok trigger will ever be comparable to a top-quality 1911. Otherwise I like the Tok a lot.

I even like the manly grip angle. Not that angle-down-wrist grip angle on the 1911 that was an obvious concession to hair stylists and department store window dressers, if you know what I mean.

Not that I'm trying to start an argument. ;^)

[Petrol & Powder]

Hey I like the grip angle on my H&K P7 and my Ruger MkII :eek: What does that say about me?

Obviously there are significant differences between the 45 ACP and 7.62 x 25 Tokarev and we've all heard the classic slow & heavy vs. light & fast argument. The present discussion about the Tokarev and the 1911 is more about the contrast than the comparison. Those two cartridges aren't even close in terms of how they operate. The Soviet cartridge is in the speed equals power category and the Browning ACP is in the mass is key category.

As a self defense pistol, the Tokarev would not be my choice but I wouldn't dismiss it as a credible tool either. Its relative low cost and clearly rugged construction are the real strengths of the design.

[bruce drake]

just last night I loaded 90gr Hornady hollowpoints over 6.6gr of 800 for a 1300fps load for my CCW Tok...

[ole 5 hole group]

All those ladies seem pretty scrawny.

Naw, those ladies are built for steady speed - and if you prefer European blondes - just take a trip to Sweden and walk into any Swedish convenience store.

The Tokarev is probably OK "over there" but the 1911 rules over here.;-)

[Bigslug]

An interesting assessment.

The Tokarev is like a lot of guns - after word of what the final 1911 trial gun was subjected to, EVERYBODY wanted it, but not everybody wanted to pay for it. The mindset continues today with manufacturers who take the basic Browning concept and eliminate barrel bushings, barrel links, grip safeties, introduce polymer, etc. . . then proclaim that they've made the 1911 "better".

Well. . .maybe. . . The current trend is to make something that lasts as long as it needs to until the next budget influx. The trend in the pre-WWI age was to do it right the first time, because we may not be able to afford more later, and might have to run these for a LOOOOONG time.

The Tok was more the product of a system in which "we have to arm A LOT of people; our leadership practices are such that a lot of them get killed and a lot of our gear gets captured. We simply don't have the resources for something as sexy as a 1911"

Within that mindset, the Tok is freakin' phenomenal - it distills the 1911 down to the barest nuts and bolts of rapid mass production and serviceability in a military setting, and it's classically Soviet in that an idiot caveman conscript is unlikely to break it. I wouldn't mind owning one for that reason, but I'd want one of the original format, no safety models - those seem to be a tad pricey and hard to find. :( Ballistically, it serves the military need by poking FMJ holes deep enough to perforate vitals - like any handgun, terminal performance sucks compared to rifles and shotguns, so accuracy trumps caliber. How quick the other guy falls down from the diameter of the hole, and how advantageous that is the subject of much lengthy debate by front-liners and rear echelon bean counters.

I differ with you on a couple of points:

1. Performance of the "stock" gun. When was the last time you saw a "stock" 1911? Truth is, despite the plethora of options, you don't see much out there being touted as being straight mil-spec; it's all about how tight you can fit things, how ambi-night-sight-match-grade-tacti-cool you can make it. Build the gun within the actual specs and the price will be at a point where it will be a lot more fair to compare the merits.

2. Accuracy. X-rings were never a concern for either gun, and at mil spec levels, it's going to be a matter of how each individual gun fits together. In either case, both are mechanically good enough to punch the other guy somewhere between the shoulder blades inside of 25 yards. Whether they're ergonomically good enough for that is another question entirely. The 1911 suffers from recoil, which does the less-dedicated pistol shooter no favors, but that's it's only disadvantage to the Tok. The flat vs. arched mainspring housing debate of the 1911 vs. the 1911-A1 continues, but either points more naturally than the Tokarev. . .unless your target is a political dissident on his knees in a ditch with his hands tied behind his back five feet away from you - in which case the grip angle of the TT-33 is PERFECT.:mrgreen:

The grip safety of the 1911 allows for a trigger that slides straight to the rear - more in keeping with what your finger wants to do - vs. the rotates back and up approach of pretty much everything else. The thumb safety topic brings into question WHICH Tokarev variant we're talking about.

3. Power. You aren't going to find a lot of takers for the whole "foot pounds" argument among knowledgeable shooters these days. It's well proven bullets don't "knock" people down, and penetration, or lack of it, is more a matter of bullet design than how fast it's going. In military FMJ terms, the only functional difference between the 7.62 x25 and the .45 ACP is the diameter of the hole.

4. Trajectory. The U.S. soldier had Springfields, Garands, M14's and M1 carbines to solve that problem. The Soviet soldier had a 91/30. . .and was probably more worried about taking a 7.62x25 from his own officers than his enemy was. THEY'RE BOTH WEAPONS OF LAST RESORT AND VERY HARD FOR MOST TO SHOOT WELL AT DISTANCE ANYWAY! Who cares how flat the bullet flies?

Both guns are products of their systems and good for what ther systems had in mind for them. Americans had the notion of a handgun being a primary fighting arm; they set out to build the best one they could with no compromises and ended up with exactly that. The Tok is a brilliant solution to a big logistical challenge, therefore it is not the honed and polished samurai sword the 1911 is, but the fact is, in the right hands, a rusty meat cleaver will do. :drinks:

[Tackleberry41]

Russians just do things differently than we do here. The US military goes thru a new weapon search every couple of years, then the cost of buying a whole new inventory of weapons. Russians figure if it still kills people whats to change? Maybe they do buy new weapons, but they don't toss the old ones like we do, they simply relegate them to reserve units, or stuff them away in a warehouse just in case.

[DougGuy]

But I still get issued M1911A1s. This picture is from Afghanistan in Dec 14'. Bottom center is the one I had signed out and is in Condition 1 just out of the holster for the photo.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Remington_Rands.JPG


CD

^^ This is the ONLY way to truly and honestly improve the 1911..

[preparehandbook]

...Naw, those ladies are built for steady speed - and if you prefer European blondes - just take a trip to Sweden and walk into any Swedish convenience store...

I like my women thick and strong. My wife is a former shot putter. She can throw a bowling ball further than I can accurately roll it.

But everybody has their own tastes.

[preparehandbook]

...The grip safety of the 1911 allows for a trigger that slides straight to the rear - more in keeping with what your finger wants to do - vs. the rotates back and up approach of pretty much everything else...

The Tok trigger slides just like a 1911, they are effectively the same mechanism.



...THEY'RE BOTH WEAPONS OF LAST RESORT AND VERY HARD FOR MOST TO SHOOT WELL AT DISTANCE ANYWAY! Who cares how flat the bullet flies?...

Interesting note here, Tussian soldiers were expected to qualify at 75 meters. I guess they wanted to make sure they could shoot their own men before they got close.

I myself have never found a gun that shoots as naturally as the 1911, it just fits.

My reason for preferring the 7.62 cartridge is the fail safe factor. Wearing heavy clothing, behind a car door, a large animal such as a pig or bear... I am confident I will put a hole all the way through a human target, and into the vitals of any beast. I just like the Russian philosophy of "always leave an exit hole."

That being said, I have never felt undergunned with a 1911, though in after action I found more rounds than I would prefer did not make it through barriers. But in an urban setting this is also a safety factor.

[Deakota57]

I can’t seem to find RCBS dies for the Tokorev 7.62x25

[Deakota57]

I have my Fathers Tokarev a 1943 that he Got it during the War and had it nickeled. 273307

[RJM52]

Have been shooting the 7.62x25 for 20 years in a couple of CZ52s. Bought one of the Zavasta TOKs a few years ago and it is a very nicely made gun.

Agree with most of what the OP posted but one reason I would rarely if ever carry it rather than my daily 1911 is the sights...they simply SUCK and would be expensive to improve.. That and the grip angle doesn't lend itself to very good point shooting for me.

My daily carry gun is a Commander in .38 Super with the 90 grain Underwood Xtreme Defender at 1560 fps...1640 from a 5"...not much different than the TOK ammo...

Bob

[dtknowles]

I have a CZ52, but would not choose that cartridge for self defense. Calling
it "potent" seems slightly ridiculous. Not that I want to get shot with one, but
I don't want to get shot with a .22 Short, either. A fast moving tiny bullet
isn't all that effective, esp FMJ. Soldiers using .30 Carbines regularly
complained that they didn't stop well, the .30 carbine is a very similar bullet
and going even faster.

Nobody ever complained that the 1911 with FMJ didn't stop well. Add in a
230 Gold Dot and you have the best of both worlds. Very likely to open to
80 caliber, but even if it doesn't open at all --- still .45 cal and 230 grains,
like military ball.

Heavy wool winter coat and/or ****ty body armor will stop a .45 ACP even 230 gr fmj. I don't think I would prefer 7.62 x 25 but a hot 9 x 23 or even only at .38 super velocities would be better. It is also better at shooting thru car doors. Uses a slimmer magazine and frame. One of my CZ-52's is a 9 x 23. I would more likely carry my Star BKS, slimmer shorter lighter still 8 shots, it is like a small 1911 in 9 x 19 but no grip safety. One of the short Tok's might be nice in 9 x 23.

Tim

Tim

[dtknowles]

just last night I loaded 90gr Hornady hollowpoints over 6.6gr of 800 for a 1300fps load for my CCW Tok...


Here is some load development I did for 7.62 x 25 in CZ - 52's

273317

Ok in my guns you need to use loading manuals for your work not copy mine. I bet you could do better. You can see I only tried one powder.

Tim

[johniv]

Had a Tok TT33 many years ago. Carried it. I now carry a 1911. Upside o the Tok is as mentioned size and weight. In my opinion advantages stop there. Ammo is less available, (I had to find .30 Mauser, before the wall came down, and Tok ammo was avail.) No Saftie ment condition 3. Power wise, I'll take the .45 any day, I don't care what numbers on a piece of paper say. The Tok is fun , but not for me to carry.

[Prairie Cowboy]

The Tok is a very good design. It's main fault IMHO is quality of manufacture, which can vary from very good to horrible, depending what country made them.

The Czech and Polish versions are reputedly the best from what I have read.

[downzero]

I agree with everything you have to say other than the low recoil. With that kind of velocity there is significant muzzle flip. It's certainly not a replacement for a 1911, but it's a cool historic gun and cartridge.

[Dan Cash]

I don't carry, not much need for it in Fargo North Dakota.

Not to mention that IMO a pistol is for helping you get to your shotgun!


If you hit your intended target, you don't need a shotgun. The above mindset encourages spray and hope actions which are self defeating.

I, too, have more than one 7.62x25 pistols and hold them in high regard but will keep my 1911 (Colt or Kimber) close to hand and on my hip.

[Norske]

Good for you, GhostHawk. I, on the other hand, live across the river from you and am too old to tolerate a junkie mugging. A 1911 is included in my normal attire. My former County Sheriff insisted my wife and I get MN CCWs since before we moved we had ND class 1 CCWs.

[seaboltm]

If you hit your intended target, you don't need a shotgun. The above mindset encourages spray and hope actions which are self defeating.

I, too, have more than one 7.62x25 pistols and hold them in high regard but will keep my 1911 (Colt or Kimber) close to hand and on my hip.

Not hardly. I worked for many years in military and law enforcement. Been to more than a few shootings. My thinking was my service pistol was intended to buy me time and get back to my car where I would have an AR or a 870. Handguns are not the first choice when a gun fight is imminent.

[johniv]

Not the first choice, but sometimes, the ONLY choice.

[35remington]

No amount of wool coat that anyone could possibly reasonably wear can prevent 45 ACP FMJ from thoroughly perforating you in a more than sufficiently fatal fashion.

Just setting that record straight. Same for hollowpoints in the caliber.

[AndyC]

Knew an ex Selous Scout living in South Africa who carried a Tok constantly. He liked its accuracy, reliability and ability to punch through soft armor.

[GhostHawk]

Good for you, GhostHawk. I, on the other hand, live across the river from you and am too old to tolerate a junkie mugging. A 1911 is included in my normal attire. My former County Sheriff insisted my wife and I get MN CCWs since before we moved we had ND class 1 CCWs.

My wife and I don't go out at night, heck for most of the last year we have been right here at home.

But if things keep sliding downhill as they appear to be doing I might end up carrying yet.




I will admit parts of Moorhead are scarier than most of Fargo.
And both of my vehicles have a 10 shot .22lr semi auto with 2 full mags and 100 rounds in a zippered bag in the door pocket.
No one even notices they are there. I can have it out, loaded and ready in 5-6 seconds.

Norske you should stop by for coffee someday! NE corner of 13th Ave S and 10th St.

[VariableRecall]

The Korean War era "Wool Coat" myth is just about as busted as myths come. Most likely it was spread by people trying to push M1 carbines into more rifle-like roles that it wasn't designed for. As far as I'm aware, the M1's an upgrade to an issued handgun, and I doubt that every army truck driver was as skilled as Elmer Keith back in the day.

Then again, even the most cheap-tastic expired kevlar soft body armor's going to make a handgun round slightly less fatal.

I wouldn't worry about it until Kevlar lined winter coats become the norm.

[TheGrimReaper]

I am a big 1911 guy....
But I do like my tokarevs too.
I wish we could do something about the sights

[Texas by God]

I like the Tokarev cartridge. Having a 1911 in 7.62x25 would be neat. In my opinion, the TT33 is a typical Russian gun- ugly, wierd feeling, tough and reliable. Sort of like the Nagant revolver, Mosin Nagant, SKS, AK47 rifles, etc. I have owned CZ52s and a Chinese Tokarev with 9mm and 7.62 barrels- but they went down the road when the surplus ammo dried up.
I'm still a 1911 guy.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[AndyC]

When the CZ Custom Shop does a Tok (ok, a Zastava M57 specifically):

https://i.imgur.com/d9FoquF.jpg

[dtknowles]

No amount of wool coat that anyone could possibly reasonably wear can prevent 45 ACP FMJ from thoroughly perforating you in a more than sufficiently fatal fashion.

Just setting that record straight. Same for hollowpoints in the caliber.

Agreed, When I said "Heavy wool winter coat and/or low grade body armor will stop a .45 ACP even 230 gr fmj." I did not mean a heavy wool coat by itself but body armor with or without the coat. Better body armor will stop even 7.62 x 25 but it is less available. I don't know if you have noticed some protestors are wearing body armor.

This winter who will know what protesters are wearing under their winter coats.

Tim

[dtknowles]

When the CZ Custom Shop does a Tok (ok, a Zastava M57 specifically):

https://i.imgur.com/d9FoquF.jpg

Man I like that a lot. I wonder if I could get it in 9 x 23 Win.

Tim

[jrayborn]

I really think the Tok and the 7.62x25 is underrated. AndyC, that is a gorgeous Tok! Wow!

Anyway, I carry one frequently and feel very well armed. It's accurate, shoots flat, and is powerful. What more could I ask for? The fact that it can defeat body armor (some body armor at least) is just an added benefit.

[35remington]

If there was any round that could potentially contest the idea that the 9mm is the “best” self defense caliber, the 7.62 X 25 might be it. Mild recoil, high velocity and some potential to fit in a gun designed for increased capacity.

Just thinking out loud here.

If I had available a five inch plastikpistole of modern type design in the caliber I’d buy one.

[RJM52]

When the CZ Custom Shop does a Tok (ok, a Zastava M57 specifically):

https://i.imgur.com/d9FoquF.jpg

...and where does one get a Tok with a 1911 safety/mag release and beavertail?

[wch]

If it works for you then by all means carry it, good read but still not sold :D

CD

Improved 1911? I'm not sold either!

[RKJ]

I’ll stick with my 1911’s or my HP, but I won’t try to change anyone’s mind as long as they don’t try to change mine.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I would like to see the same type of thread on the Makarov, a pistol I should have bought when they were available for $100.

[TheGrimReaper]

When the CZ Custom Shop does a Tok (ok, a Zastava M57 specifically):

https://i.imgur.com/d9FoquF.jpg

Love those sights

[Texas by God]

I would like to see the same type of thread on the Makarov, a pistol I should have bought when they were available for $100.

You mean the improved Walther PP?:grin:

[dimaprok]

When the CZ Custom Shop does a Tok (ok, a Zastava M57 specifically):

https://i.imgur.com/d9FoquF.jpg

I looked at CZ custom shop but I don't see an option for Tokarev. Was this available at some point in the past?

[AndyC]

No, this was apparently something that one of the Custom Shop guys did for himself - I posted it to show what's possible with desire/expertise.

[Dimner]

Thank you for raising this from the dead. This thread was a great read. I have always been interested in the Tokarev, but have passed on it a bunch of times. Now it is on the list for sure

[WebMonkey]

many moons ago, i bought a yugo tokarev from classic firearms.
was unissued or as close as you can get.

this was back when 30 round ar type mags were 'scarce'.
i traded 3 nip magpuls for a case of surplus ammo.

i bought a box of s&b ammo for the brass.
got a lee loader (whack a mole) in .30 mauser to load them.
.311 lee mold.

i like the pistol and liked the slenderness of it even more.

nice in the collection and never a problem but i prefer my 1911 in 9x19.

i prefer to carry my LCP or my g26.
:)

[MT Gianni]

My former boss loved Tok's and collected them. He had over 175 the last time we talked. When we shot together he brought a 44 mag revolver or a 9mm auto. His Toks were just for show.

[Thumbcocker]

Generally speaking; what type of accuracy can you get from a Tok in good condition? Seems like it would be a really flat shooting round.

[Wayne Smith]

I would like to see the same type of thread on the Makarov, a pistol I should have bought when they were available for $100.
I have a couple but prefer my CZ 92. Double stack mag and steel construction. Used to cost about the same and mine was literally unfired in the box when I got it.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Improved 1911? I'm not sold either!

^^This^^

Minuscule cartridge. If the gun is so great everyone would have one, there would be lots of custom builders and it would be taking the IPSC, IDPA, etc world by storm. Just another Soviet-era, western-design stolen pistol. Great that the OP likes his, but it is not for most people.

[Outpost75]

Generally speaking; what type of accuracy can you get from a Tok in good condition? Seems like it would be a really flat shooting round.

My 1953 Polish with handloaded Hornady .309" diameter, 90 - grain XTP assembled with 7.4 grains of AutoComp in Starline cases with Federal 200 primers, gives 1450 fps and shoots an 8-round magazine into 4-5 inches at 50 yards, and to the sights.

Using a neck hold on Army E silhouette you can keep them all on the silhouette at 100 yards or metres. MY M1911 WON'T DO THAT!

[dtknowles]

My 1953 Polish with handloaded Hornady .309" diameter, 90 - grain XTP assembled with 7.4 grains of AutoComp in Starline cases with Federal 200 primers, gives 1450 fps and shoots an 8-round magazine into 4-5 inches at 50 yards, and to the sights.

Using a neck hold on Army E silhouette you can keep them all on the silhouette at 100 yards or metres. MY M1911 WON'T DO THAT!

A couple things. 1450 fps with a 90 gr. bullet is small potatoes. 8 to 10 moa accuracy is nothing to brag about. What kind of *** 1911 do you have or do you mean that with 45 acp you have to hold above the head instead of on the neck. Oh, my 7.62 x 25 shoots 60 gr. XTP's at 1700 fps and 60 grain sabotted .22 cast bullets or jacketed 45 gr. soft points at over 2000 fps.

Tim

[white eagle]

I think they are UGGGlee
will keep my 1911 thank you

[Terminatorret]

I love re-reading this thread!
FMJ 7.62x25? Over penetration? A quote from a Russian I read somewhere: "Two holes bleed faster than one."
I have two 7.62x25 tools...a Zastava M57A (GREAT safety!) and a CZ-52 in excellent condition.
I also have a plethora of .22lr, .22mag, .380, 38/357 and 9x18 handguns...as well as long guns and a Remington 870 riot.
I sometimes wonder to myself..."If I KNEW I was walking out my front door into a gunfight, what would I carry?"
I have decided that my best options would be 7.62x25 pistols + my 12ga.
JMHO

[TNsailorman]

12 gauge first and then a Revolver/pistol that you are familiar with and can get consistent hits on target . Police reports show that the majority of gunfights are 10 yards and under. That is where the shotgun thrives. james

[robertbank]

Well in my world I have a dofferent outlook as to how I value my life. A surplus Tok of dubious quality shooting a round that is hell for recoil vs a SIG 226 Mke 25 Navy that I can shoot with speed into a five inch circle under stress just is not an equal scenario. Nor is the option of a Mossberg Defender with five slugs at hand. God help me should I ever have the need but savouring a Tok just is not in the cards.

Guys up here buy a crate of ammo for their new toy. Half way through the crate the gun goes up for sale. The fun of beating your hand up with poorly sighted pistol loses its appeal quickly.

Take Care

Bob

[rbuck351]

I have a 1939 Tok33 my dad brought back from WWII. I have shot it off and on for about 45 years. I had to use 30 mauser brass and dies as there was no 7.62 x25 dies or ammo available for quite a while. I made a hundred or so cases from 38 spl but it pained me when I lost any of those. When boxer brass became available a got about 500 in trade but still use the 30 mauser dies. I have an old Swag-o-Matic and have been making 85gr 3/4 jacketed bullets using 50 cal bmg primer cups for the jacket.

I also picked up a Chicom Tok in 9mm that the wife likes. I also have a CZ52 but I don't like it as well as the Tok. Years ago I bought a Ballister Molina that has been my carry gun for many years until I got a Springfield xds in 45. The 7.62x25 makes an excellent round for hunting small game and I wouldn't feel badly under gunned with it for concealed carry but I like the xds better. I believe one should carry the gun he can make fast hits with and not worry so much about power or penetration.
Three or four shots in the head from 15 feet with a 22lr will stop just about anyone. If you can't place three or four shots in a 3" circle at 15 feet in under 2 seconds you need more proper practice not a bigger or faster round.

[DougGuy]

Before posting a thread titled as this one is, "improved 1911" one should sit back and ponder that exact terminology. Improved? 1911 improved? With an 86gr boolit the 1911 is improved? Very funny.

People have been trying for over 100yrs to "improve" the 1911. Guess what it's still as good now as it was 100yrs ago without any modern "refinements" and if there was one single thing that COULD improve the 1911, it would be a toss up between the addition of a firing pin safety, or the double stack magazine which offers 7 more rounds of 230gr wallop than it had in 1911. Everything else you see stuck on one is an unnecessary "solution" to a problem that wasn't a problem until someone invented it.

Anyway, carry on gentlemen...

[sharps4590]

I had a CZ in 7.65...which I think was the 52(?) I shot about 50 rounds through it....and gave it away. I expect the cartridge and handgun adequate and serviceable, I just didn't care for it. The depth of the grip was a bit long for my hand and consequently was pulled off to the right for me to reach the trigger. The 1911 is comfortable in my hand and I shoot better with it....the precious little I shoot it.

[robertbank]

Just a thought but the Tok round might be better placed in a semi-auto carbine such as the Ruger PCC.

Just saying.

Take Care

Bob

[Skipper]

Carrying a Tokarev, it's like an improved 1911

http://thefirearmsforum.s3.amazonaws.com/2016/10/174668_6680f31596ed184b042088b868009118.gif

[Burnt Fingers]

Before posting a thread titled as this one is, "improved 1911" one should sit back and ponder that exact terminology. Improved? 1911 improved? With an 86gr boolit the 1911 is improved? Very funny.

People have been trying for over 100yrs to "improve" the 1911. Guess what it's still as good now as it was 100yrs ago without any modern "refinements" and if there was one single thing that COULD improve the 1911, it would be a toss up between the addition of a firing pin safety, or the double stack magazine which offers 7 more rounds of 230gr wallop than it had in 1911. Everything else you see stuck on one is an unnecessary "solution" to a problem that wasn't a problem until someone invented it.

Anyway, carry on gentlemen...


http://thefirearmsforum.s3.amazonaws.com/2016/10/174668_6680f31596ed184b042088b868009118.gif


I have to agree.

The ComBlock has never "improved" a thing.

[robertbank]

I have to agree.

The ComBlock has never "improved" a thing.

I think we can agree the modern sight packages made a huge benefit. Other than that...nothing I can think of.

Take Care

Bob

[Thumbcocker]

I'm not a big fan of rhe link but it seems to work.

[TNsailorman]

skipper, you took the words right out of my mouth.