Winchester mod 94 30-30 feeding problems

[pappy4]

Ok guys, didn't know if I should put this here or not. But I have a problem. I reloaded a bunch of 30-30 rounds and got them to group very well in my marlin 30-30 and my bros win 30-30. What they will not do is feed at all in the winchester but work fine in the marlin. I did all load work doing it loading one round at a time. Then loaded in six rounds to see how they feed, marlin first worked fine but not one worked in the 94. I used a set of lee dies and all the case specs are all good. Then I checked a factory rem round that would feed ok and found out the case below the shoulder of the round is .3965 not the .401 size that most of my books tell me specs are. oal is good even made it a bit shorter thinking that was the prob. It wasn't a max load so a little deeper seating was ok to try. So what I am asking I guess is that am I going to have to get a small base die set for this gun or is there another standard set that has a smaller fl size die.

[KLR]

What do you mean "not feed at all?" Not going into the chamber? Getting stuck halfway into the chamber? Rim sliding past the slots in the cartridge guides?

What does a round fired in your rifle measure below the shoulder?

[pappy4]

they fire fine. Just will not come up. The feed ramp will try to come up but jambs. I don't know what they are called but the feed ramp comes up between two things one on each side but the case gets hung up right there will not come up can't tell if its the rim or the case thats hanging it up. .4005 on the fired round.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Did you have a hearty breakfast? Are you cranking the lever hard enough?

[KLR]

What is the total length of the loaded round? If it's too long the bullet nose will catch on the receiver.

[pappy4]

As heavy as I am I eat way too well lol. The nose will come up but thats all. I thought at first they were too long so I shortened them nope no go. Then that they were hanging up on the case mouth so crimped them harder nope no change. Thats when I found some place that said some lever guns need a small base die to function and thats why I asked in here if any one ever had that. They chamber easy and shoot a 1 1\2 in 10 shot group. But only if you load them one at a time.

[KLR]

Those two things on the sides are cartridge guides. The have a channel that the case rim rides through and brings the rear of the round up. Does the rim of your rounds slide past these slots and remain under the cartridge guides?

[Teddy (punchie)]

If jammed in past bad enough the feed ramp, feed ?? I forgot the correct name. But the piece maybe bent. The funny thing the say you have to work them like you mean it. Only trouble if you do and you bend the ramp your out of luck.

[pappy4]

KLR no they stick before the slots. Teddy they feed factory rounds just fine.

[kbstenberg]

Pappy how about if you try just the empty case. try 1 fired case and 1 full length case. An see if either one hangs up. Then try a case with just a seated bullet.

[Hickok]

The Winchester 94 must seems to have been designed by a committee of German technicians as it seems to be way over engineered compared to the simple, easy design of the Marlin.

John Browning must have had Teutonic ancesters!

My opinion is you do not need small base dies, as your rounds chamber easily, and most 94's have a generous size chamber.

Try pulling a factory jacked bullet, and load it in one of your fired/resized cases without powder and primer, i.e. dummy round and see if it cycles through the Winchester. This should indicate if it has something to do with your cast boolit causing the hang-up.

Give us a report as to the results, and we can all put our heads together!

Forgot to ask, what bullet/boolit are you reloading in the case?

[KLR]

It will feed a factory round but won't even lift your reloads? Sounds like it's too long and the nose is not clearing the magazine tube hole in the receiver.

[pappy4]

Yeah tried it all guys. fire formed case and resized no boolit and case will not even go down through to the mag. it has to be with the case. When I did have a boolit in them they were 170grn fn lead cast. coal is 2.4855. Coal in manual is 2.510 My rounds the nose will come up start in the chamber but the case head would not go forward to let the feed ramp come up. So I made a dummy round and made it shorter thinking like everyone it was too long still will not come up. Then thought the crimp wasn't tight enough and it was hanging on the case mouth using a lee factory crimp die i made it as tight as it will go still would not come up. I thought that it just might be my old dial caliper was not reading right so got a new one not that lucky it was after almost 20 years still fine. But at least I can see this one better its digital. This is making me nuts.

[pietro]

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pappy - Have you checked the L & R guide screws for tightness ? Is your rifle a pre-64, a post-64, or an angle-eject ?

If the guide screws are OK, IMO something's amiss with the lifter - but the fact that factory rounds feed/chamber OK means to me that there's something up with your loads.

Just because the reloads will feed/chamber in one gun (or more), it doesn't necessarily follow that they will feed/chamber in all guns so chambered.

I would suggest you measure & compare the O.D. of your reloads with the space between the guides.


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[pappy4]

Oh and I size all my cast boolits. .308 nose is .300 gc to nose is .9435

[StratsMan]

Pappy... sounds like there's some small thing that is amiss... Something you normally don't check for... I'm not at your bench, so I can only give "been there" suggestions that turned out to be my problem...

You said the case will not go down through the mag?? Does that mean you can't feed an empty case through the loading gate??? I have a similar symptom on mine; I can feed one empty through the loading gate, but the second one gets caught and won't feed. If there's a bullet in the case, then they feed normally up the tube...

Have you tried setting your sizing die a little bit deeper?? Is there a bulge anywhere on the case?? Especially at the bottom of the shoulder???

[KLR]

My rounds the nose will come up start in the chamber but the case head would not go forward to let the feed ramp come up.

If the nose is in the chamber then the feed ramp already came up. So now the round is jammed in with the nose in the chamber and the rim under the cartridge guides?

[runfiverun]

it's the side rails not allowing the case through them.
the round comes up on the lifter and the bolt pushes it forward until the rim slips through a notch in the rails and is pushed into place under the extractor.

sometimes the notch for the rim is mis-placed a little or has a rough spot [newer rifles]
and sometimes the rails themselves are a little bit too close together.
if the smaller sized factory round will slip through and feed but the fired rounds won't you need to see where the fired round is catching on the rails and relieve that area a little bit. [the burr or rolled over spot on the edge or whatever]
remember everything is also moving forward so don't get carried away in one place.

[pappy4]

I put a factory round in from the top and it goes through and the feed ramp will go down to the mag. But if I try a fired one or a reloaded one they will not go down through the rails to push the feed ramp down. I guess I said it wrong they go through the gate into the mag ok just will not come up between the rails. I had thought of polishing the rails with some 1500 wet\ dry sandpaper I have to see if that may help.

[pappy4]

.

pappy - Have you checked the L & R guide screws for tightness ? Is your rifle a pre-64, a post-64, or an angle-eject ?

If the guide screws are OK, IMO something's amiss with the lifter - but the fact that factory rounds feed/chamber OK means to me that there's something up with your loads.

Just because the reloads will feed/chamber in one gun (or more), it doesn't necessarily follow that they will feed/chamber in all guns so chambered.

I would suggest you measure & compare the O.D. of your reloads with the space between the guides.


.
The one thing I didn't check were the guide screws. The rails didn't move but I will check the screws any way to see. Its a 1970 top eject. I hope I don't have the same prob. with my 1950 32 spcl top eject. But if it does I know where to start looking any way. If I (we) figure it out. Thanks guys

[Hickok]

Pappy, take a reload and color the brass case with a black magic marker, then carefully insert it and put downward pressure so guide rails will mark the case. Then you may be able to see where the problem area is on the rails.

[hydraulic]

For a few years Winchester made the lifters out of thin sheet metal-they bend very easily. Take a look and if the ejector isn't the shiny silver colored steel lifter order one from numrick or from Winchester.

[pappy4]

Pappy, take a reload and color the brass case with a black magic marker, then carefully insert it and put downward pressure so guide rails will mark the case. Then you may be able to see where the problem area is on the rails.
Thanks I will try that in the am. Was out looking at the moon going to give up for the night thanks for the info.

[pappy4]

For a few years Winchester made the lifters out of thin sheet metal-they bend very easily. Take a look and if the ejector isn't the shiny silver colored steel lifter order one from numrick or from Winchester.
Its the steel one I put alot of pressure on it trying to get it to load and it didn't budge. thanks

[wonderwolf]

I had issues with a 1968 mfg 94 a few months back, I ended up narrowing it down to the carrier with the help of this forum and a few other resources.

If you feel comfortable doing so I would pull the gun all the way apart, inspect, clean, lube and reassemble. I usually do this if I get any firearm that starts to act up, about half the time the issue kind of jumps out at me when I do this, piece of lead or dirt underneath something critical has caused more headaches for guys who bring me problematic guns, loose screws account for 1/4 and the other 1/4 is a broken part or such.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?271840-Winchester-94-misadventure
I did a write up on my blog about my fix for my 94 a few months back, might want to take a look at it and see what I did http://wonderwolfs.blogspot.com/2015/03/winchester-94-1968-bent-carrier-or.html

[pappy4]

I had issues with a 1968 mfg 94 a few months back, I ended up narrowing it down to the carrier with the help of this forum and a few other resources.

If you feel comfortable doing so I would pull the gun all the way apart, inspect, clean, lube and reassemble. I usually do this if I get any firearm that starts to act up, about half the time the issue kind of jumps out at me when I do this, piece of lead or dirt underneath something critical has caused more headaches for guys who bring me problematic guns, loose screws account for 1/4 and the other 1/4 is a broken part or such.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?271840-Winchester-94-misadventure
I did a write up on my blog about my fix for my 94 a few months back, might want to take a look at it and see what I did http://wonderwolfs.blogspot.com/2015/03/winchester-94-1968-bent-carrier-or.html
Thanks I can take it apart. A good cleaning prob wouldn't hurt. Its been awhile. I will take a look thanks again. I will post what i find.

[Tracy]

Try making the COAL longer, not shorter. Winchester '94s have a problem feeding rounds that are too short. I had that problem with #311008 crimped in the crimp groove, but when I seated the boolit a bit farther out it fed fine.