Winchester Silver-Tips

[azrednek]

The Winchester Silver-Tips came up in another thread so I thought I'd start a separate string here. As far as factory fodder my go to has been Winchester Silver-Tips for years.

Several years ago Home Depot sold broken or torn bags of drywall mud dirt cheap. I did some very crude experimenting using the mud in lieu of ballistic gel. I shot the bags at apx 10-15 yards. Most everything I tried simply left a clean hole going through. The bags literally exploded when shot with factory loaded 38 Special and 45ACP Silver-Tips.

Some very old hand loaded Herter's brand so-called half-jackets had similar but not nearly as explosive results. The half-jackets were 44 Special shot in a Charter Arms Bulldog. A single 44 cal half-jacket was the only slug I managed to recover. Just like we see in gun rags it was a perfect mushroom. Being new then to hand loading I never gave any though to weighing the recovered slug. I don't recall the specific 44 Special load but do recall using a max or near max load shown in a mid-70's 1970's Speer manual.

On the same outing I shot some home cast from straight big-rig truck wheel weights. Best I recall the home cast loads didn't do anything impressive to the plaster bags.

Does anybody know for the lack of a better phrase, what makes the Silver-Tips tick?? Has anybody tried to duplicate the formula on their casting bench? Is the Silver-Tip a cast or swaged bullet? My fingernail tests has the Silver-Tip softer than pure lead. Has anybody tested a Silver-Tip with a hardness tester?

Just for the record in case anybody thinking about shooting the drywall mud. Myself being at fault as well as many other shooters wanting a low cost reactive target. Leaving the plaster mess in the desert surrounding the Phoenix area. Generated enough complaints that Home Depot quit selling the damaged bags. The Home Depot clerk told me they also quit selling partially deflated propane canisters as well for the same reason. Might be different in your area. If you try it I suggest you clean up the mess. I was definitely guilty of being a slob.

[Combat Diver]

Silver Tips are my still preferred carry load in .41 Mag and .44 Spl.


CD

[azrednek]

I haven't seen any current production 41 mag Silver-Tips in at least 10 years. I shot my last 6 41 mag ST's about a year ago. I couldn't locate the 41's before the Obama shortages started and assumed they were discontinued.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Here you go! My good deed for the day! www.SportsmansGuide.com (http://www.SportsmansGuide.com) Item # WX2-10610 Winchester Super X .41 Mag. STHP $28.19/$26.78 per 20 rd. box, in stock.

[white eagle]

might be able to copy their results with the poured soft point
2 part alloy technique (Bruce's method)whereby you pour a
soft nose then a harder rear section

[bob208]

silver tips only expand in vampires and werewolves.

[contender1]

White eagle has hit upon my thoughts.
member "sixshot" introduced me to the dual alloy casting firsthand a few years back. I'd read of it,,, but he showed me how he did it. I'd say that may do exactly what you desire.

[Andy]

There have been very professionally done tests for silvertips in .380 where they were proven to not expand properly at the velocities you are likely to find in pocket .380 guns. I'm not commenting on any other calibers as I have no experience with them, but the test results for silvertips in .380 were very unimpressive. The hornady 90 grain xtp was a much better performer across all velocities likely to come out of a pocket gun.

I had thought silvertips were the best in the past but this info has made me switch to xtps as I use up my silvertips.

[williamwaco]

There have been very professionally done tests for silvertips in .380 where they were proven to not expand properly at the velocities you are likely to find in pocket .380 guns. I'm not commenting on any other calibers as I have no experience with them, but the test results for silvertips in .380 were very unimpressive. The hornady 90 grain xtp was a much better performer across all velocities likely to come out of a pocket gun.

I had thought silvertips were the best in the past but this info has made me switch to xtps as I use up my silvertips.


.380 unimpressive! ??? Imagine that.

The only thing that ever impressed me about the .380 was the recoil. Those tiny little pocket pistols KICK!

[azrednek]

Der Gebirgsjager, THX!! for the good deed.

[azrednek]

might be able to copy their results with the poured soft point
2 part alloy technique (Bruce's method)whereby you pour a
soft nose then a harder rear section

I tried that about 20+ years ago after reading it in a gun rag. A good portion were printing two holes on the paper target. I was obviously doing something wrong but never tried it again.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

149866149867149868To satisfy legal requirements permitting reproduction, this is a book review: The book is Handgun Stopping Power, by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow, 1992, Paladin Press. It is an excellent book containing a wealth of information about the effectiveness of various handgun calibers and rounds, and should be owned by every student of terminal ballistics. Both of the authors were long time law enforcement officers who performed extensive documented testing themselves and also gathered information on actual shootings from many sources. -End-

149869I don't always carry a .380, my friend; but when I do carry a .380 it's Silvertips, my friend--Silvertips.*
*Apologies to Dos Equis and The Most Interesting Man in the World.

[root]

I have two boxes of the 44 spl. silver tips but like others I keep them for the Universal Monsters.

Never know when Vanhesling is to busy to answer the phone.
Rich

[Walt]

A retired deputy sheriff friend likes to talk about how well the .357 Magnum 145 Silver Tips, and later, the 40 S&W 155 Silver Tips worked on dispatching crippled deer. He usually noted that belligerent dogs were taken care of handily also. I don't recall many complaints through the years about Silver Tip handgun rounds not working well for caliber.

[jcren]

The 125 grain 357 mag Silvertip is the bullet that set the baseline for all FBI terminal ballistics testing. However, I too am a devout xtp follower for jacketed handgun ammo.

[azrednek]

There have been very professionally done tests for silvertips in .380 where they were proven to not expand properly at the velocities you are likely to find in pocket .380 guns. I'm not commenting on any other calibers as I have no experience with them, but the test results for silvertips in .380 were very unimpressive. The hornady 90 grain xtp was a much better performer across all velocities likely to come out of a pocket gun.

I had thought silvertips were the best in the past but this info has made me switch to xtps as I use up my silvertips.

Andy please don't take it wrong. If you were referring to tests done for a gun magazine article. It has to be taken with, as they say, a grain of salt. I've been reading and following various gun magazines since the early 70's. Doesn't take long to discover the big advertisers always get the glowing revues.

I don't deny the XTP is might be a better choice. A torn bullet jacket with its extremely sharp jagged edges will tear away at flesh. On the other hand a gun rag author can control the environment the tests were done or even alter the facts rendering favorable results to a gun rag's sponsor. An author submitting an article favorable to a gun rag's advertiser increases the chance of his article being published. I'm told but can't back it up with experience or direct knowledge. A ten degree variation in the ambient temperature of ballistic gel can alter the test results considerably. Now if the test results were done by a police dept or the tests done a few years back by the FBI. It would indeed be hard to challenge.

The most effective tests I've read about were done prior to WW 1. The Army tested various handgun cartridges on cattle headed to the slaughterhouse. From what I read the slaughterhouse tests was a major factor in the Army adopting the 45ACP. Even way back then the animal lovers pitched a fit ending the Army's testing on live animals.

My very crude tests simply revealed the Silver-Tips were some what explosive on ready-mix plaster. I like the shock value of a rapidly expanding slug to stop bad guys. I'm also concerned about over penetration hitting an unintended target behind the bad guy. I never tried 380 on the plaster bags but did shoot some 32ACP FMJ's. As expected they left a clean 32 cal hole in and out.

[azrednek]

.380 unimpressive! ??? Imagine that.

The only thing that ever impressed me about the .380 was the recoil. Those tiny little pocket pistols KICK!

I have a Russian Makarov chambered in 380. One of the most enjoyable shooters I have. The larger and heavier all metal frame soaks up the recoil. Shooting it is reminiscent of the early Colt 32 and 380 Pony's I believe they were named.

[too many things]

I think I read where the silver tip was pure tin. That would put it about same hardness as lead. Have any of you seen one corrode ? It could be the way the jacket is made too. If you have recovered many from game. the "tin" is still bonded to the copper. So would bet the center is in fact tin

[Uncle R.]

There have been very professionally done tests for silvertips in .380 where they were proven to not expand properly at the velocities you are likely to find in pocket .380 guns. I'm not commenting on any other calibers as I have no experience with them, but the test results for silvertips in .380 were very unimpressive. The hornady 90 grain xtp was a much better performer across all velocities likely to come out of a pocket gun.

I had thought silvertips were the best in the past but this info has made me switch to xtps as I use up my silvertips.

Hooray for the internet. Check out the tnoutdoors9 channel on YouTube for excellent ballistic gel tests in many different calibers and loads. His results with Silvertips range from very impressive to pretty bad, depending on the load. There are more modern designs that work better and more reliably.


.380 unimpressive! ??? Imagine that.

The only thing that ever impressed me about the .380 was the recoil. Those tiny little pocket pistols KICK!

I believe a lot of the felt recoil comes from the blowback action used in most pocket 380s. I have an old Remington 51 in .380 and with its locked breech action it's a very mild kicker, and pleasant to shoot.


I think I read where the silver tip was pure tin. That would put it about same hardness as lead. Have any of you seen one corrode ? It could be the way the jacket is made too. If you have recovered many from game. the "tin" is still bonded to the copper. So would bet the center is in fact tin

I think I read somewhere that the silver cap is made of aluminum. I'm not certain, but it should be easy enough to find out. Pry the cap from a silvertip bullet and drop it into your molten lead casting alloy. If it melts, it might be tin. If it doesn't melt, it isn't tin but might be aluminum.

The Hornady Critical Defense loads are usually excellent and are my favorite in the .380 because they expand reliably and the truncated cone bullet shape feeds better than other hollow points in my gun. Depending on what caliber you shoot I'd also suggest you look at Speer Gold Dots or Federal HSTs for carry ammo.

Uncle R.

[jcren]

According to Winchester propaganda, silvertips are a dead soft swedged lead core with a thin venere of aluminum to prevent point damage during feeding. The aluminum allowed for a much larger exposed core without feed damage.

[Mytmousemalibu]

My little M&P Bodyguard is a very mild shooter despite is size and light weight and noteworthy that it is a locked breech/short recoil action. I still don't trust a hollow point or other expanding bullet is any .380 gun. I'll stick with the Lehigh XP's for that caliber only. It will bury its way in deep enough and damage like a hollow point but its solid copper, nothing to fail there. My M&P 9C did have 124gr. Federal HST's in it but I have swapped in Lehigh's new 9mm 90gr+P Xtreme Defense cartridge. Here's a good video evaluation of the Underwood Ammo loading of the new XD bullet. Military Arms Channel did what I think is a pretty fair evaluation of the load. If you're interested in the test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ
Again, its a non-expanding, solid copper projectile, short of the round not going off, there is nothing to fail or clog which I value.

[Andy]

I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest here, here is the article I read so that everyone can judge for themselves:
http://shootingthebull.net/blog/final-results-of-the-380-acp-ammo-quest/

The above article does not contain the silvertip test, which the tester did by user request after the article, the silvertip test is in this youtube video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r1eflJVW_k

At 1:40 you will see the recovered bullets, 4 of the 5 did not expand

The point I was making is that silvertips did not expand reliably in the test when fired from a very short barreled .380 (2.8" in the test).This certainly doesn't mean that silvertips are a badly designed bullet, or inappropriate for a longer barreled .380. It does suggest that if you are using them in a short barreled .380 and would like consistent expansion then there are probably better options for you.

Given the many pocket sized .380s that have come out in the last 5 years I think this information is particularly relevant.

[ReloaderFred]

Many years ago I was at an autopsy where a suspect was shot three times in the chest with a .380 acp, using Winchester Silvertips. The suspect was dead, hence the autopsy, and the Silvertips expanded as they were supposed to.

The circumstances were a neighbor saw that a burglary was occurring next door while the occupant was away. The neighbor confronted the suspect as he exited the dwelling and the suspect lunged at him with a large knife. Three shots at close range and the suspect died at the scene..... It was a clean shoot by the neighbor, and the end of a long criminal career for the suspect.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[shotstring]

According to Winchester propaganda, silvertips are a dead soft swedged lead core with a thin venere of aluminum to prevent point damage during feeding. The aluminum allowed for a much larger exposed core without feed damage.

I think this is absolutely correct jcren except in addition to aiding in feeding, the aluminum core allows the soft lead core to be driven over 1000 fps without leading. If I could remember how to show pictures on this site I would post pictures of my test silver tips. In 357 when driven with 16.6 gr of 296, they perform beautifully - just as advertised. When the 296 is upped to 17.5 grains, the bullet separates from the core and leaves it behind and as it penetrates it loses all its mushrooming petals and edges. This leaves a small exact 357 diameter soft lead slug that has lost 50% of its weight. In short, performance is horrible. 17.5 gr of 296 is still far from a maximum load. No pressure signs and the cases just drop out of the cylinder. Silvertips are definitely a medium/medium fast velocity hollow point rather than meant to be a screamer.

When the jacket separates - when I examined it I could see that it was the same basic consistency of an aluminum can. Definitely aluminum as near as I could tell. The lead core simply left the jacket behind with the jacket remaining in one piece like a little aluminum cup.

[shotstring]

As an added note - I think this is the major problem with many performance hollow points. They work well in a certain narrow range of velocity, but often fail to perform if the velocity drops below or rises above that narrow range. Cast projectiles on the other hand are much more stable through all the velocity ranges.

In regard to the 17.5 gr 296 loading for the 145 gr silver tip. It will blow up at close range where defense situations occur, but the same loading may perform very well at 100 yards in a deer where the velocity has dropped back into its sweet spot. By the same token, the loading that works well at defense distances may fail to expand at longer range in a hunting situation.

I have found loadings that work very well at defense distances for both 357 and 44 so that is what I load for. For myself, I would choose a different projectile for hunting or long range - silver tips are simply too fragile and temperamental to rely on for that in my opinion.

[9.3X62AL]

Some random thoughts on Winchester Silvertip pistol ammunition and ideas related to same......

If you worship bullet expansion as your linch-pin of handgun ammo selection, you're bending a knee to a false god. Internal ballistics = exact science; external ballistics = exact science; terminal ballistics is at best a poorly-understood art form, though we are maybe making baby steps at improving such performances. Project this art form onto the utterly unpredictable reaction sequence context of the targeted goblin and all bets are off.

All of the Jello ever shot can't say or do a bloomin' thing about ammo that 1) won't function reliably in the platform being used or 2) isn't projected competently onto the intended assailant. Better catechisms should involve ammo known to run the gun well and practice that builds skill to place those hits well.

380 ACP--to paraphrase a great friend--superb deputy--and excellent trainer the late Sgt. Charles Varga......you must be careful with these, they can raise quite a welt. I don't think my shop has any street history with 380 S/T as deputy defensive ammo, but I also think we still issue it as carry fodder. With all of the tiny 9mm pistols having proven their worth, the 380 is assuming the status of 8-track tape decks. I haven't owned a 380 for over 20 years or loaded its cartridges for that same timespan.

9mm Luger/115 ST--this round is the recipient of most of the blame for poor performance during the 1986 Miami FBI robbery shootout, and my own view is that a lot of that drag sequence is a bad rap. My shop carried these loads for the first several years of autopistol adoption, and it is pretty good stuff--115 grainers running 1200 FPS from 4" barrels, with decent service accuracy. Not a +P load, but pretty close to the 9mm Luger's full ballistic potential from the bullet weight/velocity perspective. Post-Miami, FBI and the Facklerites have inflicted upon law agencies and by default the public at large the 147 grain JHP at 950 FPS from the 4" barrel, a 30% down-load ballistically from the 9mm's potential. How we enhance lethality by subtracting power projection eludes me.......must be related to that Common Core math stuff. This disparagement of the 9mm Slivertip has "bled over" very unfairly upon other calibers in this product line.

10mm ST--I love this ammo. LOVE IT. 175 grain JHPs running 1275 FPS is my idea of GREAT WORK. It is accurate, reliable, and I was happy to carry it CCW until the caliber got disallowed by my shop with the onset of HR 218 and supposed Federal oversight of LEO CCW matters. Nothing touched by the Federales goes uninjured by the contact.

45 ACP--my shop's first 45 fodder was the 185 grain Silvertip when bottom-feeders got added to the lineup. These go close to the claimed 1000 FPS, and the few shootings we had with the ammo went well for the deputies. It ran well and shot accurately--what's not to like? At the same time FBI led the shaming of the 9mm ST, it was decided to "improve" the 45 ACP's diet too--and they did! The W-W 230 grain SXT got the nod, and its bullet gets close to 900 FPS without going +P to get there. Really good stuff, and actually a tick or 2 better than the 185 grain ST it replaced. The ST is still good ammo, though.

Bottom line.......Magic Bullets are bullwarp. Hit the goblin well with enough power to convey the message, and the bad guy won't be needing voice mail to get the clue.

[USSR]

Years ago, I tried to dispatch a large doe that another hunter had wounded when it bedded down under my tree stand. The gun was a 6" S&W 686, and the ammo was .357 Magnum 145gr Silver Tips. Aiming point was the top of the doe's back (angling down into the chest) from my tree stand at a distance of about 35 feet. At my shot, the doe promptly got up and ran off. I was astounded! That was the morning. In the afternoon, I went back to the same general area to hunt. Along comes a doe limping, and I shot it with my shotgun. In field dressing the deer, I found a perfectly expanded .357 Silver Tip bullet lodged in the heavy fat layer on the doe's back. The bullet failed to penetrate into the chest. I quit using them for anything at that point. Expansion without adequate penetration is failure - pure and simple.

Don

[shotstring]

9.3, the idea of magic bullets for today's law enforcement is all about preventing through and through over-penetration. It isn't easy to come up with a bullet that will expand to close to twice its diameter, penetrate over 50% of any torso it encounters through any clothing the subject might be wearing and never over-penetrate completely through the subject. Not many rounds can do that. CCW holders have even more risk from a round that penetrates completely through a person. Lethality is only part of the equation.

[ReloaderFred]

First the shooter has to hit the target, which is pretty hard to do when the target is shooting at you. I've been shot at several times "on the job", and my primary interest at the time was to get something solid between me and him, which I was able to do. Armchair experts who rail against poor shooting by the police have never been shot at while target shooting. I don't worry too much about over penetration. I want a bullet that will expand after it hits it's intended soft target.

The Silver Tip was never intended to be a hunting bullet when it was first developed in the late 1970's. I had several conversations with Winchester at their East Alton, IL, plant while they were working on the concept, and then the final product. I'm pretty sure the jacket is no longer made from aluminum, but rather some other alloy. The original aluminum jackets presented problems with jacket separation, which delayed delivery until they worked it out. Our department had great success with the Silver Tip ammunition in both .38 Special and 9x19. When they made everyone carry the .40 S&W, they went with the Winchester Black Talons, and later the Ranger SXT, which is the same bullet, but without the black coating.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[9.3X62AL]

Same here, Fred. Our attention in our former occupation could attract gunfire on occasion. My remarks should in no way be construed as a critique of performance under fire--been there too--but as a reality check in response to all of the bullet/caliber debates that revolve around these kinds of discussions.

[shotstring]

I agree that there is too much talk and too much reliability on latest bullet technology as a cure all for all things shooting related, but this a bullet/gun forum. What else are we going to talk about? At least as part of the discussion. Personally, I don't have much concern over any type of gun or ammunition that I happen to carry. I even carry the maligned 380 in a German Walther PPK much of the time because it is one of the smallest most concealable firearms I own - and it will put a round into the middle of a torso or beyond. That is all that is necessary in any ammunition or firearm combination. I still carry a more powerful caliber when I can with ammunition that expands better when I can to improve my odds when things don't go as planned, but it isn't a big deal. I've always had to check my backgrounds as standard training procedure anyway, so I am also not overly concerned about over penetration. You could just narrowly miss your target and hit someone standing behind them anyway.

I guess I've been lucky that I haven't ever been shot at while "on the job" but have had several friends that were. You just hope your training kicks in when something like that happens and you do the right things. No way of knowing till it actually happens.

No way to tell for sure what alloy Winchester is using on their silver tip jackets but it sure both feels and looks like aluminum once it is separated from the core. And jacket separation does still happen on a regular basis if you over-drive this bullet. That is the major point I wished to make - that this bullet is very velocity sensitive. That's about it.

[9.3X62AL]

Good points, Shotstring--this IS a bullet forum. My underlying theme here is that Silvertip pistol ammo is generally good stuff, and that it got a bad rap after Miami. This sub-sonic 9mm 147 grain JHP load that is all the rage in LEO circles now is a 30% down-load from the caliber's potential, and it is counter-intuitive to me that you enhance lethality by retarding ballistic performance. If I had to guess, the real intent was to reduce recoil in hopes of increasing hit rate. That's my guess, anyway. The subsonic stuff IS ACCURATE, for sure. There could be a net gain if targeting improves. Jury is still out on that question, though.

[ReloaderFred]

Am I the only one who sees the 147 gr. sub-sonic bullet in the 9x19 as being about the same as the .38 Special we used for so many years? Just wondering........

The Silver Tip is intended for a limited velocity range, as I was told by Winchester when I was conversing with them. I was rangemaster for our department at the time and they had sent me some ammunition to try out before it hit the market. In their loaded ammunition, it performed just as advertised.

I agree with Al, in 10mm it's one of the best on the market in loaded ammunition. I've hot-rodded it and when over driven, it comes apart, but that was my fault, since I exceeded it's design parameters (on purpose).

Hope this helps.

Fred

[9.3X62AL]

Right with ya, Fred. That 9mm/147 grainer is exactly as you describe, a self-loading 38 Special.

[Walkingwolf]

silver tips only expand in vampires and werewolves.

Not true, vampires, and werewolves have discovered the jacket is actually aluminum.

[Petrol & Powder]

Some random thoughts on Winchester Silvertip pistol ammunition and ideas related to same......

If you worship bullet expansion as your linch-pin of handgun ammo selection, you're bending a knee to a false god. Internal ballistics = exact science; external ballistics = exact science; terminal ballistics is at best a poorly-understood art form, though we are maybe making baby steps at improving such performances. Project this art form onto the utterly unpredictable reaction sequence context of the targeted goblin and all bets are off.

All of the Jello ever shot can't say or do a bloomin' thing about ammo that 1) won't function reliably in the platform being used or 2) isn't projected competently onto the intended assailant. Better catechisms should involve ammo known to run the gun well and practice that builds skill to place those hits well.

380 ACP--to paraphrase a great friend--superb deputy--and excellent trainer the late Sgt. Charles Varga......you must be careful with these, they can raise quite a welt. I don't think my shop has any street history with 380 S/T as deputy defensive ammo, but I also think we still issue it as carry fodder. With all of the tiny 9mm pistols having proven their worth, the 380 is assuming the status of 8-track tape decks. I haven't owned a 380 for over 20 years or loaded its cartridges for that same timespan.

9mm Luger/115 ST--this round is the recipient of most of the blame for poor performance during the 1986 Miami FBI robbery shootout, and my own view is that a lot of that drag sequence is a bad rap. My shop carried these loads for the first several years of autopistol adoption, and it is pretty good stuff--115 grainers running 1200 FPS from 4" barrels, with decent service accuracy. Not a +P load, but pretty close to the 9mm Luger's full ballistic potential from the bullet weight/velocity perspective. Post-Miami, FBI and the Facklerites have inflicted upon law agencies and by default the public at large the 147 grain JHP at 950 FPS from the 4" barrel, a 30% down-load ballistically from the 9mm's potential. How we enhance lethality by subtracting power projection eludes me.......must be related to that Common Core math stuff. This disparagement of the 9mm Slivertip has "bled over" very unfairly upon other calibers in this product line.

10mm ST--I love this ammo. LOVE IT. 175 grain JHPs running 1275 FPS is my idea of GREAT WORK. It is accurate, reliable, and I was happy to carry it CCW until the caliber got disallowed by my shop with the onset of HR 218 and supposed Federal oversight of LEO CCW matters. Nothing touched by the Federales goes uninjured by the contact.

45 ACP--my shop's first 45 fodder was the 185 grain Silvertip when bottom-feeders got added to the lineup. These go close to the claimed 1000 FPS, and the few shootings we had with the ammo went well for the deputies. It ran well and shot accurately--what's not to like? At the same time FBI led the shaming of the 9mm ST, it was decided to "improve" the 45 ACP's diet too--and they did! The W-W 230 grain SXT got the nod, and its bullet gets close to 900 FPS without going +P to get there. Really good stuff, and actually a tick or 2 better than the 185 grain ST it replaced. The ST is still good ammo, though.

Bottom line.......Magic Bullets are bullwarp. Hit the goblin well with enough power to convey the message, and the bad guy won't be needing voice mail to get the clue.

Excellent Post, Thank You.


I'll add just a bit.
Totally agree about the .380 Auto. The small pistols chambered in 9mm have supplanted the .380 auto in the concealable small auto pistol category. They're not bad guns but we're not throwing the gun at our adversary, we're throwing a bullet. When the .380 was the best one could do in that size pistol the gun had merit but the small 9mm's have eclipsed the .380 auto in the role of a very small SD pistol.

The 115gr 9mm +P+ controlled expansion load by Winchester has an excellent track record and probably would have taken a position as "the best" if there hadn't been a shift towards the 40 S&W. The Federal 9BPLE (9mm +P+) load would be a real close second and maybe a tie. Those are still excellent rounds but the statistical pool got watered down by the shift to the 40S&W.


The points made by 9.3x62AL in the first couple of paragraphs are far more relevant than all of the quasi science of terminal ballistics you can ever compile.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, actually, there is a current and growing trend in law enforcement to return to the 9mm JHP+P round based on the greatly improved performance of the new generation of ammunition, the usually larger magazine capacity of comparable models of handguns, level of recoil, etc., vs. the 40 S&W that performs no better and perhaps not as well under some circumstances.

[Petrol & Powder]

And I welcome that return of the 9mm. I never became much of a 40 S&W fan.

[flint45]

I like siler tips alot also the old black talons wow!

[9.3X62AL]

The 9mm at its full potential, as loaded in 1902 (that is 113 years ago, and counting.....) ran 123-125 grain bullets at 1250 FPS. Such loadings get called "+P+" these days, which is sort of fallacious.......I suppose after 60+ years of grossly underloading most factory 9mm ammo, the ammomakers need some manner of subterfuge to take comfort from. European 9mm loadings didn't get watered down in this manner, although most of them feature(d) a FMJ/RN bullet. At 1250 FPS the 9mm's 125-JHP is better than halfway to 357 Magnum capability (38 Spec @ 925-950 FPS, 357 Mag @ 1425-1450 FPS). THAT is some whomp-um. 16 of THOSE on board my P-226 would be most satisfying, add a spare mag and a citizen CCW like me has some options if the balloon goes up.

Folks may never be satisfied with the load/bullet combinations offered in the several "carry calibers". That's OK--until those Magic Bullets drop from the sky for us, run what ya brung......and be well-practiced with it. That might be the best response to this "work in progress".

[tazman]

Am I the only one who sees the 147 gr. sub-sonic bullet in the 9x19 as being about the same as the .38 Special we used for so many years? Just wondering........

Fred

Fred-- That is my opinion as well. Since I dearly love the 38 special, I feel right at home with the 9mm and heavy boolits. The 38 special can do anything I need done in a CC gun.