Canadian Rangers to replace the Lee Enfield .303

[robertbank]

Well the old war horse is about to be finally retired. With replacement parts difficult to obtain and rifle replacements not at hand the Canadian Rangers will now soon be getting a new bolt action rifle. I may have to pick up the civilian version.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/06/25/replacement-selected-for-canadian-rangers-lee-enfield-rifles/

Local Ranger outfit is excited about the new rifle which should start appearing around here on our range late 2016.

Take Care

Bob

[Outpost75]

Here is the article in the Ottawa Citizen describing the Rifle Replacement Program:

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/here-it-is-the-new-sako-rifle-for-the-canadian-rangers

The Canadian Rangers require a hunting rifle for survival and self defence against large North American carnivores at ranges of 0 metres to 300 metres. Currently, the Rangers use the Lee Enfield No. 4 to meet these requirements but the age and the scarcity of parts for this weapon will soon make it very difficult if not impossible to maintain, according to the Department of National Defence and Colt Canada.
Because of that the New Canadian Ranger Rifle (NCRR) system is being purchased to replace the Lee Enfields.
Here are the details provided in an information sheet supplied to Defence Watch by Colt Canada:
The NCRR will be used by CRs while patrolling some of the most remote regions of coastal, central and northern areas of Canada. The temperatures will reach as high as +39C with moderate to high humidity along coastal and forested regions and as low as -51C in arctic regions. For those CRs located in coastal areas, it is likely that the NCRR will be exposed to long term salt laden air and water. The NCRR will be transported by the CR on foot, wheeled commercial vehicles, skidoos, sleds, small boats and all-terrain vehicles. It must remain operable during and following exposure to these environments.
Program Overview
The Government of Canada and the Department of National Defence with Colt Canada, under the Munitions Supply Program (MSP) will replace the original Lee Enfield rifle fleet with a commercially available hunting rifle. The replacement will be a bolt action, calibre .308 Winchester, magazine fed rifle. Ancillary items, such as a hard transport case, soft transport case, sling, cleaning kit and trigger lock for each rifle will be procured at this time.
Prototype rifles have been delivered to the Rangers and will undergo user trial evaluations from now till the end of 2015. Production of 6500 or more rifles is expected to commence in mid-2016 with a completion mid to end 2018.
Equipment SuppliersRifle: 1. The replacement rifle is based on the SAKO T3 CTR (Compact Tactical Rifle).


SAKO Ltd is based in Riihimaki, Finland.
The Canadian supplier is Stoeger Canada from Whitby, Ontario.
The first 125 prototypes have been delivered to Canada and they will undergo User Trials by the Rangers. Feedback from the Rangers will be incorporated into production rifles.
Colt Canada will produce the barrel, bolt and receiver under licence from Sako. Production is scheduled to begin mid to end 2016.
The Ranger Rifle has several Canadian modifications.
a) Larger bolt handle and enlarged trigger guard to accommodate gloved hands.
b) Protected front and rear iron sights.
c) Laminated stock in unique orange or red colour with Ranger Crest.
d) Two stage trigger with three position safety.

Ancillaries: 1. Pelican hard transport case with Ranger Crest and custom moulded
internal foam supplied by Pelican Products ULC, from Edmonton, Alberta.


Cleaning kit, sling and soft transport case supplied by Rampart International, from Ottawa, Ontario.
Trigger lock supplied by The Old Co-Op, from North Gower, Ontario.

Colt Canada is the officially appointed Strategic Source and Centre of Excellence for Small Arms to the Government of Canada. Registered in the province of Nova Scotia, and with its manufacturing facility located in Kitchener, Ontario, Colt Canada provides full support to all small arms -ranging from 9mm pistols to .50 calibre heavy machine guns- in the Canadian Armed Forces inventory.

149782149783

[leebuilder]

It is about time, lots of goverment who ha here.
Bull to getting no 4 parts, they can still be made, no excuse their.
good to see the Rangers get a new rifle just the same.
Be safe

[robertbank]

It is about time, lots of goverment who ha here.
Bull to getting no 4 parts, they can still be made, no excuse their.
good to see the Rangers get a new rifle just the same.
Be safe

Lots of parts is nonsense and to expect somebody to tool up to make a limited supply of parts for 70+ old worn out rifles would be foolish bordering on dumb. That would be a move the Liberals or NDP would gleefully support on the premise Union workers would be subsidized. Bad enough Colt Industries gets a juicy contract for rifles that could have been supplied directly from SAKO at less cost to the taxpayer.

Take Care

Bob

[Hickory]

I wonder if any of those ol' war clubs will find their way to the States?

[Speedo66]

Possible, I think we still have good relations with Canada. Better than China or Russia anyway where we still get arms.

[Adam Helmer]

Perhaps I missed something, but how many Canadian Rangers are on establishment? Who deemed a .308 Winchester Bolt Rifle is a good replacement? The Canadians should ask Uncle Sam for some M14 Rifles and have a better arm than any .308 bolt rifle, in my humble opinion. I had an M14 for three years and it was all the rifle I could ask for. Bolt guns went out with WWI! This is the 21st Century, after all.

Adam

[303Guy]

That looks like a fine choice. It has the high capacity magazine and can shoot 180gr bullets or even heavier just fine. And it's stainless - that's a big plus. It will hurt their ears more though with that short barrel and high pressure cartridge.

[leebuilder]

Lots of parts is nonsense and to expect somebody to tool up to make a limited supply of parts for 70+ old worn out rifles would be foolish bordering on dumb. That would be a move the Liberals or NDP would gleefully support on the premise Union workers would be subsidized. Bad enough Colt Industries gets a juicy contract for rifles that could have been supplied directly from SAKO at less cost to the taxpayer.

Take Care

Bob

Hi Bob, not that dumb, after all, "they" considered the AIA no4mk4 as a replacment. We could of built and designed our own too. After all i am sure there a enough C1 and C3 skulling about to replace the no4s, if it does not effect ITAR we could sell new parts to the public, imagine new milspec no4 barrels made and sold here. To bad they will all be destroyed.
be well and safe

[Outpost75]

When the Cdn. Forces replaced their FALs with the C7 AR variant, there would have been plenty of 7.62mm semi-auto rifles available, but if I understand correctly they did not wish to equip the Rangers with a semi-automatic rifle, but a 7.62mm boltgun with detachable magazine and accessory rail is a vast improvement over their former No.4s. The Sako T3 is a great rifle and they have made an excellent choice. I hope that once the contract requirements are filled, that a civilian version may become available and a few drift down here.

I would much prefer the Sako to the Ruger Gunsite Scout, but for now my M1 Garand and Winchester 54 boltgun will have to do. I'm not going to run out of .30 caliber ammunition anytime soon. I have always prefered walnut and blued steel and don't own any EBRs. 149832

[robertbank]

Perhaps I missed something, but how many Canadian Rangers are on establishment? Who deemed a .308 Winchester Bolt Rifle is a good replacement? The Canadians should ask Uncle Sam for some M14 Rifles and have a better arm than any .308 bolt rifle, in my humble opinion. I had an M14 for three years and it was all the rifle I could ask for. Bolt guns went out with WWI! This is the 21st Century, after all.

Adam

Adam the M14 was tested in the High Arctic back in the 1950's and was found to be not suitable as a front line Infantry weapon. The design would not have met the needs of the Cdn Rangers. Here is the Gov't initial announcement to replace the LE.:
" The Role of the Canadian RangersThe Canadian Rangers are a sub-component of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) Reserve. They are effectively the military’s eyes and ears in the sparsely settled northern, coastal and isolated areas of Canada that can not conveniently or economically be covered by other parts of the CAF, providing patrols and detachments for national-security and public-safety missions in these locations.
Today there are approximately 5000 Canadian Rangers living in over 200 communities. Given the critical role the Canadian Rangers play in the safety and security of our Northern communities, and the sovereignty of our North, they require well-functioning reliable supplies and equipment. Rifles are critical tools for the rangers’ work. The model currently used is the Lee Enfield. While the stock of rifles now in use are excellent tools for an Arctic environment, their replacement parts are becoming less available and may be completely unavailable after 2017. The Government of Canada is therefore replacing the Lee Enfields with modern rifles to meet the Canadian Rangers’ needs into the future.
The Government of Canada issued a Request for Proposals (RFP) in 2014 for a new Ranger Rifle design, and the contract was awarded in early 2015. Following testing, and any necessary design amendments, Colt Canada will produce more than 6500 rifles, which will be phased into use by the Canadian Rangers between mid-2016 and late-2019.
A Call for a Rifle Design Suitable for Canada’s NorthThe Government of Canada will turn to a long-established Canadian expert in the weapons industry, Colt Canada, which holds a solid track record in supplying and maintaining small arms, including rifles. Colt Canada assisted the government to competitively select a rifle design and then will manufacture them. The company, previously called Diemaco, has been Canada's Small Arms Strategic Source and Centre of Excellence since it was competitively selected in 1976, under the federal Munitions Supply Program (MSP). As such, Colt Canada is an experienced and efficient manufacturer and supporter of small arms for Canada, including the men and women of the CAF. This stable Canadian small arms manufacturing and maintenance capacity is considered key for the constant readiness of the CAF for domestic and international operations. The Government of Canada remains committed to the MSP.
The government will in fact issue two contracts to Colt Canada. The first contract, valued at approximately $1.5 million, is for Colt Canada to manage the design competition, as well as the delivery of up to 125 test and evaluation rifles. Colt Canada itself will not be a contender for the rifle design. The Department of National Defence (DND) and Public Works and Government Services Canada will fully participate in evaluating the design bids, along with Colt Canada as the competitively selected manufacturer.
The second follow-on contract will enable Colt Canada to buy the technical data package and a manufacturing license agreement for the design which will be manufactured at Colt Canada. This contract also includes quality control, the production of spare parts, and accessories such as cases and trigger safety locks. Canada will contract General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems, also an identified partner through the strategic source agreement with the MSP, to supply the ammunitions. The production contract is expected to be awarded in early 2016.
What Kind of Rifle is Required?The Canadian Rangers require a specialized, robust rifle that can perform reliably in temperatures well below freezing. There will also be unique cosmetic elements to help CAF and Royal Canadian Mounted Police personnel identify an official Ranger Rifle from a distance, leading to a specific design for these rifles as opposed to purchasing off-the-shelf stock.
The ownership of the intellectual property of the design will remain with the selected design firm, and Colt Canada will acquire a manufacturing license for the design on behalf of Canada. As the rifle manufacturer, Colt Canada will be required to change or update the technical data package periodically, for example in the event a particular part becomes obsolete. Updates are required as, historically, DND’s small arms have a service life of between 30 to 70 years. The Canadian-manufactured Lee Enfield went into service during WWII and has been used by the Canadian Rangers since 1947. (Add the Longbranch rifles are the majority but other #4's have been purchased over the years as the "supply" of NIB Longbranch rifles ended years ago. )
These two contracts will support the continued employment of 95 jobs and contribute to the creation of up to approximately 30 jobs in the Kitchener, Ontario region."

The procurement and political nonsense that seems to be required to get anything done in a democracy these days is at times astonishing isn't it.

The SAKO aka Tiki rifle should be perfect for the intended use. The design and rifle chosen would have made Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper proud as it would seem to fit his description of his beloved Scout Rifle. I know our local Company of Rangers are excited about the prospect of getting the new rifle. The kit that comes with the rifles is also first class.

Take Care

Bob

[quasi]

Does the Tika have a spring loaded ejector in the bolt face, ala the Rem. 700? This will give problems for sure, with some Rangers . They wanted to go with a Ruger Scout rifle,which is mechanically a much more reliable design. Ruger would not agree to the licensing requirements.

[robertbank]

Does the Tika have a spring loaded ejector in the bolt face, ala the Rem. 700? This will give problems for sure, with some Rangers . They wanted to go with a Ruger Scout rifle,which is mechanically a much more reliable design. Ruger would not agree to the licensing requirements.

I don't know about the bolt you would have to check with someone who owns either a Tika or Sako. Rugers are great kit guns but I doubt they are made to the same level of quality that the Tika/Sako guns are. I have looked at then locally and was not impressed with fit or finish. Great design just average finish. The licensing agreement is key to the Cdn Military contracts unless offsets are available which certainly would have been the case with an American supplier.
My days and desire of tramping around in -50C weather is long since gone, did that done that in around Pine Point and Ft. Simpson, NWT. I may pick up a civilian T3 with the composite stock. Here on the Left Coast we do get copious amounts of rain and wet weather. The civilian model comes with a threaded barrel and could be convinced to put a muzzle brake on the gun. I have a couple of scopes looking for rifles.

Take Care

Bob

[Petrol & Powder]

Looks like a damn good solution to me. Excellent NATO issued cartridge that is readily available and well proven. A simple and reliable bolt action that can be counted on in very remote locations under harsh conditions. Stainless barrel and laminated stock should hold up well. Basic iron sights but a rail for optics as well. They clearly took some input and added features like a larger trigger guard for use with gloves. Overall I think they got an excellent rifle.

[GabbyM]

T3's do have spring loaded ejector pins and of course a Saeco extractor claw. Pretty much like an AR-15. Since they've been around for many years and come from Finland I believe cold weather testing is extensive. I'm pretty sure most Canadian Rangers will know better than to muck up there rifle with oil that will gel hard in cold temps.

[Multigunner]

Early complaints about the Lee Enfield rifle, not SMLE or No.4, when issued to Canadian troops or militia or RCMP not sure which, in the arctic were the firing pin freezing up tight in the bolthead in sub zero weather and in forests resin from the evergreen trees drifted down into the open topped action body and gummed up the bolts.
Apparently those problems were only due to much closer tolerances of the pre SMLE rifles. The Australian Lithgow rifles manufactured before 1916 were also prone to jamming up in dusty conditions, the fit between bolt body and action body being way too tight. Arctic explorers learned to use their rifles completely free of any sort of lubrication.
The Standard SMLE and No.4 rifles don't seem to have had any such issues.

The No.4 rifle converted to 7.62 NATO was never considered suitable for every day infantry use, though the L42 rifles had no problems with the cartridge if properly maintained.
No.4 rifles converted to 7.62/.308 are limited to a certain pressure level if used in competition.
If only ammunition meeting the original M80 Ball specifications were used the converted No.4 rifles might be suited for ranger use, but the 144-150 gr bullets are really not suitable for self defense against large bodied animals, especially brown bear and polar bear.

The Prototype FN FAL rifles failed arctic testing, though I'm sure the improved models would be up to the task.
Regardless manually operated rifles are better suited to arctic climes.

[quasi]

from what I understand the individual Rangers are getting to keep their issued No. 4's as personal property. I can not believe any Government would make such a good decision.

[Lonegun1894]

I hope they get to keep them. I mean, no one can say they haven't earned them. But I'm kind of prejudiced and think that all armed services personell who are honorably discharged from any country, should be given their service weapon upon discharge to maintain as their private property. What better way to make sure all countries have their own "minute men" at all times? And I believe this should be the case regardless of current weapons laws, such as the ones saying that no more full auto's are allowed to be registered in the US. Who cares if US troops have an M-16 or M-4 with a 3 round burst after they get discharged? Personally, I'd rather they got to keep them. Like I said though, I'm prejudiced.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The Sako T3 is a great rifle and they have made an excellent choice. I hope that once the contract requirements are filled, that a civilian version may become available and a few drift down here.

I reported on this contract a few months ago. There is already a civilian version of this gun as it was what was modified to fill the contract. Tikka T3 CTR is the gun.

http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3/t3-compact-tactical-rifleThe

Changes made were addition of the Iron sights which are bolt on, and the larger bolt knob and trigger guard which came from something else, and the Laminated stock.

Last I heard they hadn't decided between the Orange Laminate and Red/gray laminate. I personally think the Red/gray goes better with their red hoodies and caps.

I was the one who put Ruger onto this contract and the only reason they didn't get it was because of the "Built in Canada" that the politicians put on the final draft of the requirement.

The Ruger Scout Rifle was ready to go out of the box with every other requirement, and bunch cheaper.

Nothing wrong with the Tikka Rifle, and I almost bought one a few months ago. I think they will be well served by this gun.

Boyd's has been getting barraged with people wanting the pretty Laminated Stocks for Tikka T3's.

Randy

[robertbank]

I reported on this contract a few months ago. There is already a civilian version of this gun as it was what was modified to fill the contract. Tikka T3 CTR is the gun.

http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3/t3-compact-tactical-rifleThe

Changes made were addition of the Iron sights which are bolt on, and the larger bolt knob and trigger guard which came from something else, and the Laminated stock.

Last I heard they hadn't decided between the Orange Laminate and Red/gray laminate. I personally think the Red/gray goes better with their red hoodies and caps.

I was the one who put Ruger onto this contract and the only reason they didn't get it was because of the "Built in Canada" that the politicians put on the final draft of the requirement.

The Ruger Scout Rifle was ready to go out of the box with every other requirement, and bunch cheaper.

Nothing wrong with the Tikka Rifle, and I almost bought one a few months ago. I think they will be well served by this gun.

Boyd's has been getting barraged with people wanting the pretty Laminated Stocks for Tikka T3's.

Randy

The built in Canada was there from the start. If Ruger wanted the contract they would have had to sell a license to Colt Industries to make most of the gun parts and have the rifles assembled in Canada. Their choice. This has been Canadian Government policy for years. The US and Canada have a bilateral agreement on major purchases whereby if Canada spend x amount of funds buying US sourced equipment a certain level of military equipment is bought from Canada - usually aircraft parts from what I can see.

The Tika aka Sako T3 will be a better rifle. The civilian gun had a composite stock as well which would not hold up in the very low temperatures experienced in the Canadian high arctic. I may get the civilian version to play with. It will get a muzzle brake though. The gun is pretty light and I have sensitive shoulders.

Longgun1894 the Canadian Rangers are not in any aspect a fighting military force. They do play a role in maintaining our sovereignty of the high Arctic and are trained to assist civilian authorities in the case of natural disasters. Minute men though, they are not. This is not 1812 and Obama is not Madison.

I can check tonight but I do not believe they are going to be able to keep their issued rifles. Most are worn out anyway besides when they give them up they get a very nice Tika in return, with a hard and soft gun case, cleaning kit and sling.

If the old # 4 tool care of the Polar Bears and Browns so will the Tika.

Take Care

Bob

[Lonegun1894]

Robertbank,
I didn't mean that they were part of your active duty military, but was thinking they were more along the lines of a reserve component when it was said that they were the eyes and years and helped protect your sovereignty. Sorry, I figure a Ranger of yours seeing something and reporting it, or if possible even stopping it if it is small enough in scale, is a huge advantage, and beats the heck out of whatever problem they report not being noticed til it hits a population center of any size (even a small village) and causing more harm. Forewarned is forearmed, right? Then again, I don't live up there so maybe I am giving them too much credit, but I tend to give credit to anyone who is willing to help keep their country safe, and from what little I've read about them, they seem like a good group to have patrolling out there.

[robertbank]

They do quite an effective job of patrolling the high arctic. Just being there protects our claims on the high arctic. The do keep an eye on things and are quite helpful when they provide a service. Like a lot of the military we tend to under rate their need until there is a need, then there is never enough.

Several of our IDPA shooters at our club serve as Rangers. We call them Boy Scouts with real guns over beers and kid them but they do have a real function and we do support them. One of their patrols a couple of years ago ran from Kitimat, BC to Churchill, Manitoba across the northern part of BC, Alberta and Manitoba. The patrol was done in the winter using snow mobiles for the most part. The individual Patrols worked in relays. A quick peak at a map will give you some idea of the test it provided. Our local patrol participated and it was quite an experience for those concerned.

During WW11 they do an excellent job of watching the West Coast above Vancouver through to Alaska. Then, they were issued Winchester 30-30s. They were allowed to keep their rifles at the end of the war.

Take Care

Bob

[perotter]

Good to see that getting a new rifle. Some times a little new equipment lets members and their families see that they are greatly needed and appreciated. I'm glad they will be given the old rifles.

FWIW. Just the other night I happened read a recent report by US military personal about the Rangers. It was a very positive report about them.

[Adam Helmer]

Robert bank,

I must disagree with you. The U.S. M14 passed all tests and that included Arctic Service before adoption in 1957. Any Ranger unit, or any other unit adopting a bolt action in 2015 does not know what it is about. That is akin to developing a High Tech Saddle for a horse! Yes, the saddle is "Serviceable', but it is still strapped to a horse.

A bolt action rifle went out with WWI. In the 21st Century, only semi-auto/full auto rifles offer a chance for soldier survival, in my humble opinion. A bolt rifle assumes the soldier has use of both hands, does not meet multiple assailants and can fully "crank" a bolt without frostbite to either hand.

Degrease an M14 and go into the Arctic and be well armed. Far better than any toy bolt action rifle, in my humble opinion.

Adam

[Scharfschuetze]

Adam,

Take a look at the Canadian Rangers' mission.

The mission isn't the traditional infantry mission of closing with the enemy and destroying him nor is it to hold and defend key terrain. They are a visible Canadian Government presence in areas that will probably never see a trooper from the Brunswick Regiment or one from the Princes Pats. They are eyes and ears, not sledge hammers.

Having used the M14 as a soldier, I would rather have no other rifle as a rifleman, but it really is unnecessary for the Rangers' mission. I might add that the Clinton administration destroyed much of the M14 inventory and spare parts thus leaving the US Army and the USMC in the lurch when the M14 was wanted in the desert. I don't think that there are enough M14s and spare parts left to outfit much more than the Designated Marksmen in the US Army; although when training US Navy personnel in the early 2000s, many of them had M14s in their ships' armories.

The Canadian line regiments are armed much like the US Army with a Canadian version of the M16 rifle with an optical sight.

[JSnover]

A bolt action rifle went out with WWI. In the 21st Century, only semi-auto/full auto rifles offer a chance for soldier survival, in my humble opinion. A bolt rifle assumes the soldier has use of both hands, does not meet multiple assailants and can fully "crank" a bolt without frostbite to either hand.

Have they complained about how poorly armed they are? A bolt-action rifle served their needs for most of a century and they do not live in a vacuum. By now I'm sure they've seen and heard of those new-fangled auto-loaders but apparently haven't seen the need for one.

[garym1a2]

A M14 is not a great choice for hunting ammo. It is also not good for a scope. This Bolt gun they picked looks to be a good tool for their job. Light weight, accurate, reliable. To get a M14 to shoot well requires match ammo, good bedding and lots of money.


Robert bank,

I must disagree with you. The U.S. M14 passed all tests and that included Arctic Service before adoption in 1957. Any Ranger unit, or any other unit adopting a bolt action in 2015 does not know what it is about. That is akin to developing a High Tech Saddle for a horse! Yes, the saddle is "Serviceable', but it is still strapped to a horse.

A bolt action rifle went out with WWI. In the 21st Century, only semi-auto/full auto rifles offer a chance for soldier survival, in my humble opinion. A bolt rifle assumes the soldier has use of both hands, does not meet multiple assailants and can fully "crank" a bolt without frostbite to either hand.

Degrease an M14 and go into the Arctic and be well armed. Far better than any toy bolt action rifle, in my humble opinion.

Adam

[robertbank]

Well Adam you are free to express your opinion but the last two posters pretty much summed it up. The M 14 lasted, what, three years as the mainstream, infantry rifle for the US. Heck all it was and is, is the Garand with a magazine. It is heavy, ammo was bulky and inadequate for Vietnam. I am not so sure the varmint rifle our Infantry carries is much of an improvement but I know the Cdn Army will not be changing rifles any time soon. The taxpayers are just not in the mood.

As to the Cdn Rangers others have described their situation adequately. The Canadian public nor their government is about to allow members of the armed services going home with semi-auto or full auto rifles any time soon. The rifles are used on many places as the Rangers hunting rifle. Where I live the rifle is for their protection against bears and cougars while on patrol or doing their exercises around Terrace. You might want to look at a map to get an understanding of the terrain. These folks are part time folks and are not to be confused with our Airborne troops, main line Regiments such as the Princess Pats or JTF -2 special forces. Those folks are on a different planet.

Take Care

Bob

[Adam Helmer]

Interesting rebuttals, but not convincing. I cannot see how a bolt rifle in 2015 in the M14 caliber is deemed superior to an M14. If I were a Ranger, I would have a gas gun because one of these days they will meet a squad of Soviets who are not bolt gun equipped. Be that as it may, a bolt gun never bested my M14s in any endeavor.

I agree with a prior poster about the M16 "Matel" toy rifle. I was issued one in 1965 and did not like it then and like it less now. I prefer the M14 which was our issue rifle from 1957 until 1965 when politics chose our official arm at 4 times the cost of our closed Springfield Armory.

Besides bolt action rifles, maybe the Rangers need to go BACK to Cap & Ball revolvers. One day, I hope they enter the 21st Century armament wise... Whatever???

Adam

[JSnover]

I doubt they're expected to engage an invading enemy, especially when said enemy appears in superior numbers with an array of weapons, i.e; grenades, mortars, machine guns, etc. Add a C&C network with airborne support and the Rangers would have little chance, even with VietNam-era M-14 rifles. If the Soviets did come 'over the top' they would likely send more than a squad.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK Adam: Here's another "rebuttal." These guys are mostly Eskimos! They use these guns for subsistence hunting. Not one has ever been fired in anger and they were first outfitted in1947! They shoot Deer and Caribou, an occasional Moose and a few Seals, and they can use it for Bear protection if needed. It could "conceivably" be used to shoot people, but they would most likely be Poachers not Russians.

An M14 is not a weapon for this type of usage, let alone riding around in a Dog Sled or strapped to a snowmobile. You are asking it to be used for shooting food when it was designed to shoot people.

It works great for shooting people and I'm a Fan, however when your total number of rounds fired per year is less than 5, a full auto gun is kind of pointless. Also when you are 500 miles from the nearest telephone simpler is better. They don't even use Snowmobiles when out that far because dogs are more reliable and they don't break down..

They also avoided the costly process of re-training a bunch of Eskimos to use a completely foreign weapons system that none of them are remotely familiar with. I'm not saying they can't learn, as I know them to be just as smart if not smarter than most of the politicians they would be protecting. All I'm saying is now they don't have to.

Personally being a fan of the #4 Mk1 which is dirt simple and goes bang everytime you pull the trigger, and has been perfectly suited to their uses for 68 years, I really think they should have rebuilt the existing rifles. Criterion just finished a run of barrels, and all the piece parts are easily contracted out to local machine shops if they aren't already laying around in some warehouse. I know I don't have a whole lot of problems finding parts for my two guns.The Stocks are being knocked off by Boyd's so that source is in place. The guns could have also been converted to .308 in the process to take care of coming up to speed with the 20th century.

Really this was about giving some Native People, and other Canadian Patriots a new toy to play with. And I see nothing wrong with that! The gun they chose will serve their purposes well, and require much less maintenance and upkeep than a M14 or even an M1A which is more likely what they would have gotten. Canada has a big aversion to full auto weapons..

When I first became aware of this contract and notified Mark Gurney of Ruger that the Ruger Scout was being asked for, (It was ready in every respect right out of the box.) I had found out about it in a article by Terry Wieland in Rifle Magazine.

He suggested an M14 too.

Do you hunt with an M14? Terry doesn't.

Randy

[Scharfschuetze]

Adam,

Perhaps you didn't read that the M14 is unavailable and thus its adoption is only a pipe dream. If adopted, it would quickly need to be replaced for the same reasons that the No 4 needs to be replaced... Can't be maintained due to lack of spare parts. I appreciate your loyalty as it mirrors mine regarding the rifle, but reality trumps the best of wishes.

At any rate, when I served alongside or trained with Commonwealth troops, they rather felt that their SLR (Canadian C1) was better than our M14 so I'm sure that if the Rangers actually needed a semi-auto rifle, they could have just been issued the C1 from army war stocks... if they haven't been scrapped by now.

[robertbank]

Interesting rebuttals, but not convincing. I cannot see how a bolt rifle in 2015 in the M14 caliber is deemed superior to an M14. If I were a Ranger, I would have a gas gun because one of these days they will meet a squad of Soviets who are not bolt gun equipped. Be that as it may, a bolt gun never bested my M14s in any endeavor.

I agree with a prior poster about the M16 "Matel" toy rifle. I was issued one in 1965 and did not like it then and like it less now. I prefer the M14 which was our issue rifle from 1957 until 1965 when politics chose our official arm at 4 times the cost of our closed Springfield Armory.

Besides bolt action rifles, maybe the Rangers need to go BACK to Cap & Ball revolvers. One day, I hope they enter the 21st Century armament wise... Whatever???

Adam

Adam lets get back to the real world. The Soviets are not about to invade Canada, nor are the Chinese. The Rangers are not equipped nor are they intended to fill any form of combat role. None of their training is for that purpose. Before offering an opinion as to what they really need you should first find out what their role has been and is expected to be. The M14 would not be in any list of rifles that would be considered for their role. It was, to be kind a warmed over Garand chambered in .308 and has the dubious reputation of being the battle rifle that was in use by American infantry forces for the least amount of time. The Rangers don't need a heavy semi-auto rifle for their role.

Here is a link that may help you get a better understanding:

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/canadian-rangers/about.page

and another

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/canadian-rangers/index.page

All the best

Bob
ps I spoke to one of our local Rangers regarding their LE. No decision has been made as to whether or not they will get to keep their rifles. It seems in the high arctic records of who has what and where are scanty. I would now bet the matter will just slide to the bottom of someones basket and the rifles will be forgotten about. Just saying...

[robertbank]

Adam,

Perhaps you didn't read that the M14 is unavailable and thus its adoption is only a pipe dream. If adopted, it would quickly need to be replaced for the same reasons that the No 4 needs to be replaced... Can't be maintained due to lack of spare parts. I appreciate your loyalty as it mirrors mine regarding the rifle, but reality trumps the best of wishes.

At any rate, when I served alongside or trained with Commonwealth troops, they rather felt that their SLR (Canadian C1) was better than our M14 so I'm sure that if the Rangers actually needed a semi-auto rifle, they could have just been issued the C1 from army war stocks... if they haven't been scrapped by now.

Exactly. I know a lot if not all of the C1's went to "former colonies of England in Africa.- The Liberal Gov't of the day were and remain incredibility naive. I am sure there may well be some laying around in Army stores somewhere but there would be few, at best. The option to arm the Rangers with semi-autos was never on the table from what I have been told.

Take Care

Bob

[Outpost75]

Buddy of mine who was a classmate in my cadet company many years ago is an Alaska Native, currently with the Army Corps of Engineers building roads and modern waste water treatment facilities on the nortth slope. He told me that during WW2 a similar organization was equipped with M1917 US Enfields and performed similar functions to stated missions of Canadian Rangers, existed into the 1970s.....

He tells me that lots of the M1917s still survive in the arctic and soldier on to this day....

I have no idea whether a similar organization and mission still exists formally today.

M1 Garands are readily available through the CMP and could be used, but I simply don't know if an organization similar to the CA Rangers exists currently in Alaska. Sure would be nice to know.

Anybody have any info on this?

[Adam Helmer]

Well Guys, I am done offering advice about rifles. I have far too many British .303 Enfields, which I prefer even to my many .30/40 Krags. I like the Jungle Carbines, I have a dozen No.4 Mk1 rifles from numerous nations, but my farourite .303 rifle is the MkIII with the windage adjustable rear sight dropped in 1916 when British Military Intelligence dropped it for the MkIII*.

My favourite .303 and PA deer rifle of choice is a MkIII made in 1911. She like my 185 grain RN cast Boolit and my 150 spitzer jacketed handloads. I understand the Ranger Job Description and think it sad anti-gun politics could influence the choice of a replacement firearm. Thus, I will keep my MkIII and keep PA safe. LOL!

Adam

[quasi]

Mostly Eskimo's? Wrong. Also, Eskimo to the people you refer to ( the Inuit) is a racial insult. Eskimo is a Cree word meaning "eaters of raw meat".

[robertbank]

I understand the Ranger Job Description and think it sad anti-gun politics could influence the choice of a replacement firearm. Adam

Adam where did this come from. The anti gun crowd had nothing to do with the choice of the rifle. Zero. Your comment frankly is amusing and 100% off the mark. You really don`t get it and I suspect you never will. Which really doesn`t matter at all. The Rangers got exactly what they asked for and more.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

Outpost75

Buddy of mine who was a classmate in my cadet company many years ago is an Alaska Native, currently with the Army Corps of Engineers building roads and modern waste water treatment facilities on the nortth slope. He told me that during WW2 a similar organization was equipped with M1917 US Enfields and performed similar functions to stated missions of Canadian Rangers, existed into the 1970s.....

He tells me that lots of the M1917s still survive in the arctic and soldier on to this day....

I have no idea whether a similar organization and mission still exists formally today.

That would be the Danish Sirius sled patrol that patrols part of Greenland. They used the M1917 rifles until 1970 when they obtained a generic version of the Model 70 Winchester which they still use. They continue to identify the .30-06 cartridge as the M1917 cartridge.
They uncovered secret NAZI bases in the arctic and called in USAF airstrikes.

[Multigunner]

Excuse me But I guess your friend meant the "Alaska Territorial Guard" rather than the Sirius Patrol.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mostly Eskimo's? Wrong. Also, Eskimo to the people you refer to ( the Inuit) is a racial insult. Eskimo is a Cree word meaning "eaters of raw meat".

I knew someone would take exception to my choice of words. I stand corrected.

Randy

[quasi]

Eskimo used to be the common word in Canada, in fact there is a CFL team named the Eskimo`s. The vast majority of rangers are not Inuit or in the Arctic.

[robertbank]

Outpost75

That would be the Danish Sirius sled patrol that patrols part of Greenland. They used the M1917 rifles until 1970 when they obtained a generic version of the Model 70 Winchester which they still use. They continue to identify the .30-06 cartridge as the M1917 cartridge.
They uncovered secret NAZI bases in the arctic and called in USAF airstrikes.

They discovered a German weather station which was destroyed by the USAF out of Iceland according to Wikipedia. The unit uses the Sako TRG-42 rifle, which is a Mauser action I believe chambered in 30-06.from the same source.

Bob

.

.

[robertbank]

Eskimo used to be the common word in Canada, in fact there is a CFL team named the Eskimo`s. The vast majority of rangers are not Inuit or in the Arctic.

That would be my Edmonton Eskimos who should win the Grey Cup this year if they can get by the Calgary Stampeders.:bigsmyl2:

Take Care

Bob

[quasi]

That would be my Edmonton Eskimos who should win the Grey Cup this year if they can get by the Calgary Stampeders.:bigsmyl2:

Take Care

Bob



yes, it could happen.

[robertbank]

yes, it could happen.

A fellow Edmontonian perhaps. I did manage to end up migrating down Hwy 16 a piece.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

Most Native American peoples are known by the names neighboring tribes used for them. They only used their own name for themselves among themselves. Neighboring tribes often used derogatory terms or simply their word for enemy.

[FergusonTO35]

I think the Canadian Rangers sound like a great organization. We have the National Guard here of course, but that option isn't open to everyone who would like to be a part of it for a variety of reasons such as age, health, can't be away from home for months or years, etc. I think it would be really neat if we had something similar, a volunteer force that is not military but helps to keep the peace, respond to disasters, and just be of service any way they can.

[Mackay Sagebrush]

The modified T3 looks like a truly outstanding rifle. I have a 1/2 dozen T3s, a couple of which are .308s, and though configured a bit different, they are exceptionally accurate. The Ranger's T3, utilizing the excellent SAKO magazine should serve them extremely well. Stick on a low powered variable or fixed 4x or 6x in quick detach rings, for when conditions favor a scope, and the package could serve admirably as a somewhat mini precision rifle

Congrats to the Rangers

[Love Life]

I'd love to have one of these kits.

[robertbank]

I'd love to have one of these kits.

You aren`t the only one! I may save my coin over the winter and try to put together the kit. I would put a brake on the end of that barrel though (girly shoulders after being manly for 70 years) and a scope on mine. The civilian version has a composite stock which would serve me better as the worst of our weather us pretty temperate compared to the Prairie Provinces and the North and we do get copious amounts of rain.
I was speaking to the local Sergeant and I guess the guys are really looking forward to the rifles. Our gun club is being rented for a week in November by the Rangers and most of BC`s Patrols will be brought in to do their qualifications on the rifle.

Take Care

Bob

[Outpost75]

.....I was speaking to the local Sergeant and I guess the guys are really looking forward to the rifles. Our gun club is being rented for a week in November by the Rangers and most of BC`s Patrols will be brought in to do their qualifications on the rifle.....

When you have a chance to speak with the Sergeant again, I would be very interested to know the course of fire used in training the Rangers with these rifles. Specifically, if you can get answers which could be posted here:

1. What what range are the rifles zeroed?

2. Are the iron sights or scope used for qualification. If the scope is zeroed at a different range than the iron sights, what is that?

3. Do they zero and qualify with ordinary NATO Ball ammunition? Or do they also shoot some sporting softpoint ammunition to assess any differences in point of impact?

4. Is the course of fire all slow fire, or do they also shoot rapid fire, and if so, at what types of targets and at what distance(s)?

5. Is most of the shooting from the prone position, or do they also shoot from standing, sitting, kneeling or foxhole supported positions?

The reason I ask is that in the past we have conducted a series of "fun matches" to be fired with WW1 and WW2-era service rifles. They are described here: http://www.anjrpc.org/?page=funmatches

If your lads have something "interesting" we would be delighted to follow your lead!

[Love Life]

RobertBank- I am hoping and praying the something similar would be offered here as a kit. I know the wouldn't be cheap, but this kit would awesome to have. I emailed EuroOptics to see if a civilian version might be offered.

[GabbyM]

You have looked at the T3 tactical?
ten round steel magazine with twenty inch barrel in a 3,4 Kg (7.48 lb) rifle.
You'd have to come p with an iron sight setup but that shouldn't be hard. I'd go for a size inch bloop tube to screw on the factory threaded barrel. That would cut way down on the muzzle blast for more pleasant shooting. The 11 inch twist rate would shoot my MP molds 180gr HP great. But I think I'll just have to struggle along with my M70 in 30-06.
http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3/t3-compact-tactical-rifle

[Love Life]

T3 won't scratch the itch for me.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dick: the Tikka CTR is the basis for the Ranger Rifle. Boyd's is looking at producing Laminated Stocks for those guns.

The Iron Sights are bolt on and should be available from Tikka after the first of the year.

Piecing together a gun is about the only way you're going to get one as this was a special Govt. contract for the Canadians. I personally think Tikka should offer something similar as a Civilian Version, maybe with a Green Laminate Stock, (Don't want to steal the Ranger's Thunder on the color) but who listens to me?

As far as the case goes,,, Pelican could fix you up. You'd just have to do the cutouts in the foam yourself.

That complete system is a little better than $2500, and there is no optic included.

Randy

[robertbank]

Outpost75 it has taken me five years to respond to your question. The guns have only been in the hands of the Rangers for about a year and a half so I hope you understand. Youi should find answers to most of your questions in the following. The ammo pictured is what they are issued. These rifles are the Rangers hands to protect themselves from four legged threats. While are Rangers are an arm of the Cdn Army they are not trained in infantry tactics that is not their purpose. Please PM me your email address and I will send you the Ranger file that covers the Qualification requirements for the Rangers using this rifle. The document sets our all the info you requested. I tried to attach it as a file and the file is in a format the Attachment process will not accept. If anyone else is interested PM me your email address and I will send it along.

Take Care

Bob

[Outpost75]

Thanks for the reply. PM sent.

[robertbank]

Thanks for the reply. PM sent.

Email and info sent.

Take Care

Bob

[Binky]

A good UTube vid on the rifle. Bloke on the Range, I think? Rifle looks good but is sort of hi-dollar for what you get and the one he has doesn't shoot that well.

[Lonegun1894]

Thank you for the great info, Robertbank

[robertbank]

A good UTube vid on the rifle. Bloke on the Range, I think? Rifle looks good but is sort of hi-dollar for what you get and the one he has doesn't shoot that well.

When politicians spend taxpayers money...nothing is to expensive.

Take Care

Bob

[Winger Ed.]

Does the Tika have a spring loaded ejector in the bolt face, ala the Rem. 700?

Probably the little claw looking SAKO style extractor.

As an after market item, I had one put on my Rem700 after my buddy had the extractor on his low mileage Sendero
fail while we were on a hunting trip.