Optics for 44 mag revolvers , Ruger black Hawk , S&W-29

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hullo guys, I am getting to the place/ age...that I need some help. I have a couple of Ruger 44's-Black hawk and a couple of S&W 29's .

My question to any of you that use red dot "halo" sights or red dot grip sights, what do you like best, what is your opinion ? Also any info on mounting Halo/red dot . these are not new models with any frills.

I don't shoot many full house loads any more , 210gr-250gr boolits 900-1200 FPS , kill a lot of cans these days. My hands/wrist are used up, but I still LUV to shoot my old 44's and lots of Boolits!!![smilie=1:
won't take the abuse any more.

Thank you in advance for any info / opinions :castmine:




Any suggestions on places for more info?

[NSB]

This works for me on my 44mag and 357mag. Easier to pick up than the open micro red dots. Adjustable dot size and brightness adjustments and lifetime warranty.149664

[siamese4570]

Slow Elk: I have a ruger bisley hunter and 6" ruger gp100 both scoped with 2X leupolds. This a real good way to find out how much you shake. I'm not a huge fan of the red dot scopes, just old fashioned I guess. The red dots (depending on the moa size of the dot) can cover up a lot of your target. Probably will still be "minute of can" accurate. Good luck in your quest for optics. Old blind guys have to do what they have to do to keep shooting.
Siamese4570

[stubert]

Look at Ultra dot, I had one on a Ruger SBH .44 mag. for years and it never failed. I shoot mostly near max loads.

[Hickory]

http://www.opticsplanet.com/burris-fastfire-iii-red-dot-reflex-sight-w-optional-picatinny-mount.html?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=PLA&utm_term=%7Bkeyword%7D&utm_campaign=%7BOrderItemID%7D

Probably the best dot sight out there.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/burris-fastfire-iii-red-dot-reflex-sight-w-optional-picatinny-mount.html?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=PLA&utm_term=%7Bkeyword%7D&utm_campaign=%7BOrderItemID%7D

[Larry Gibson]

+ 1 for the Burris FastFire III.

I have a Fast fire II on my Ruger Bisley .41 Magnum and find it to be handy and an excellent sight. I D&T'd the top strap for a thin flat bottomed Weaver base. That way the irons are still there and zeroed if needed.

Larry Gibson

149677

[NSB]

I also had a Burris FF3 and put it on the .44mag handgun and on a Win 1886 45-70. It's slower to pick up with the handgun due to the design of this type of sight. I shot a lot of competition for many years with a variety of handguns....all topped with red dots. The Burris FF3 is very good, but like all micro dots it is a bit harder to find the dot. Not because of brightness, because of the position of the gun. Looking through the "tin can" is always quicker. As far as shooting groups with one.......on my Win 1886 45-70 I can consistently shoot five shots under 1.8" with the dot at my private range of 114 yds. This is off bags and using a shooting table. My largest groups were 1.8" and my smallest were around 1.3-1.5".

[contender1]

I own several different red dot optics. C-More,,, the gold standard for years in competition, Older Tasco Optimas, a Burris, a Leupold, and a few Ultra Dot's, of different designs.
I find the open, more compact, types better in the woods as it allows you to see more "around" the game. You can get away with a bigger dot for "minute of deer." For punching paper & informal shooting,,, I prefer a smaller MOA dot for more precise shot placement. The tube types are just fine, as they make you align the gun easier.
I suggest you try a few to see what you think. Whatever you get,,, for your calibers, get a quality brand.

[bobthenailer]

Most of my handguns have some type of red dot sight mostly tube style and 4 semi autos with the slide mounted rear sight dovetail open style, and a few have scopes . I prefer the tube style RD without variable dot size's !,( something else to go wrong , two VS RD sights broke on me & dot tracking when changing dot size leaves something to be desired for best accuracy beyond 25 + yards. on most brands, I had 4 brands of these
I have been using red dot sights for about 25 years currently have quit a few on handguns and a few rifles & a air pistol.

Tell me your price range and I can help you select the best one for the money. or the pros & cons on the ones ive had, Ive have or had about most good quality brands from 40 to 600 dollars

[44man]

All of mine have straight Ultra Dots on them, 4 minute dot but they are really not that large and can be held on a tin can at 100. Small groups can be shot.
I tested the one with adjustable dots and found as I changed the dot, the POI changed.
I like the 30mm and the rings that come with them really work although I use 3 on the .500 JRH.
If you have recoil the heads up ones can have poor mounting systems so you need to pay heavy for a good one.
I have used many and cheap ones can break. I don't like the Bushnell or Millet. Recoil has pulled the front prism out of the tube. They are just glued in.
One thing I never do is to mount a ring over any glass. I put the front ring right against the turret and the rear one can go anywhere. For a third ring, I put the front extension on tight and put a ring on it.
Here is what an adjustable dot did. 149698149699 This is how I did the .500. It has held for thousands of heavy loads. This was a clean barrel test and the top hole is the first shot. Not too bad from a clean gun!

[ole 5 hole group]

Whatever you get, you'll have to get use to it unless you shoot a semi-auto and mill the slide. On Revolvers I've tried the Leupold Deltapoint and the Aimpoint micro 2 moa dot - I much prefer the Leupold as for me, it was quicker to locate the 7.5 moa delta.

A larger dot doesn't make it any easier to locate when you're bringing the revolver to bare. For me the Leupold was quicker while my friend can get on target just as fast or faster using his aimpoint, so like I said, one just has to get use to what they like on their revolvers.

Now for accuracy - I don't think you can beat the deltapoint, as if you use just the tip of the delta as your aiming point, it's about like having a 1/4 moa dot - so off sandbags with proper technique, I think you can do a bit better shooting groups than a 2 or 4 moa dot using the 6 O'clock hold method. Just my opinion of course.

The only problem one might find with the aforementioned red dots is price - both of them are expensive. I put the Aimpoint on my AR and it does well there and the battery life is said to be 5-years. Can't confirm that as I'm just on my 3rd year with the original battery and I have left that puppy on for several months at a time - not on purpose but just the same -- if you have CRS big time that Aimpoint will still be ready to go when you are.:-D

[DougGuy]

BE CAREFUL when picking a handgun scope. Some are only parallax free @100yds (Leupold) and will play hell with 25 and 50yd groups. Most of the dots are parallax free at any distance unless they have magnification. This alone would be a major factor for me in choosing optics for a 44 magnum. If you only target shoot, and you usually shoot 100yds, the Leupold 2-7x32 may be all the scope you need but personally you could not GIVE me a scope with 100yd parallax because I rarely target shoot OR hunt beyond about 35yds. There are excellent handgun scopes with 35yd parallax if you choose a scope over a dot.

Basically if you are going to use a scope, it comes down to buy a scope that has parallax set at or close to the distance you intend to shoot the most from.

[44man]

Parallax is not a big deal. Any handgun scope over one power will show every shake your body can manufacture unless shot from a rest. They also lose the 5mm exit pupil in dim light before it reaches your eye. Parallax is gone if you look straight through the scope.
Any scope over 1X will drive you nuts off hand.
Parallax from 100 to 50 is only 1/5". WOW! .2 of an inch.
Darn it Doug, I know scopes. The more powerful they are the worse they are. Exit pupil gets smaller until you are looking through a 1/4" tube at night with you holding a rattler by the tail without getting bit. Get an Ultra Dot!

[DougGuy]

On paper it might be .2" but in real life shooting off a rest, at 50yds, move one's eye in a circular pattern behind the scope and watch the crosshairs describe about a 5" circle. Now stop and move the crosshairs until they are on target again and fire one shot. Again, move the eye in a circular pattern, stop at random and align the crosshairs. After a cylinder full of this madness, what size is the group? 5" maybe? 6? Think this gun can shoot 3" groups at 25yards on a good day? Then take the scope off and use open sights and put the same gun and same loads into an inch.. Parallax is more of a deal than most ppl pay attention to then they wonder why their groups are so lousy.

Off topic, but.. I shoot airguns in the back yard. I thinned out our squirrel population by about 80% to keep them from wreaking havoc in my garden. I use an air rifle for this, and one of them has a cheapo wally world 4x scope on it, with a dot this gun will shoot into a dime across the yard every time. With the 4x scope, I have had it miss head shots on the nutters only to go shoot a target with it and see groups open to 2 1/2" inches. All from parallax.

[44man]

Airguns are what? 10 yard guns so you sure don't want 100 yard parallax. As you increase scope power it gets worse. It is why high power scopes have an adjustable objective.
Parallax is where the cross hairs are to the focal point of the objective. Zero is where they intersect.You will NOT move a 2X pistol scope 5" moving your eye. An airgun scope set at 10 yards is NASTY at 100.

[44man]

A picture comes into a scope inverted and lenses invert the picture. so you see in the real world. The picture must fall into the plane of the cross hairs so you move the cross hairs or the picture from the objective to the plane. A little off and you have parallax. it is bad at 30' if the scope is set for 50 yards.
Most pistol scopes are set at 50. Funny since most think 25 is long range. Rifle scopes are set to 100 but variables to high power have adjustments. But to blame parallax with a scope set to 100 to miss at 50 is folly.

[ole 5 hole group]

I am no scope guru but I do understand parallax a little. With my sort of custom benchrest scopes - most Leupold - the AO adjustment numbers are just guesstimates, as all of mine were off by a little and a lot but you just put the x-hair on a dot, move your head side to side and adjust until the x-hair no longer moves.

I don't recall ever seeing the x-hair move out of the X-ring at either the 100 or 200 yard ranges, so the x-hair movement on my scopes weren't much at all but when 0.01 to 0.005 inches could mean the difference between placing in the top 3 or top 5 or else placing in the upper 1/3 - well, I would make sure the scope wasn't the cause for not placing in the top tier.;-)

[44man]

I am no scope guru but I do understand parallax a little. With my sort of custom benchrest scopes - most Leupold - the AO adjustment numbers are just guesstimates, as all of mine were off by a little and a lot but you just put the x-hair on a dot, move your head side to side and adjust until the x-hair no longer moves.

I don't recall ever seeing the x-hair move out of the X-ring at either the 100 or 200 yard ranges, so the x-hair movement on my scopes weren't much at all but when 0.01 to 0.005 inches could mean the difference between placing in the top 3 or top 5 or else placing in the upper 1/3 - well, I would make sure the scope wasn't the cause for not placing in the top tier.;-)
That is also true, not many markings are correct. Best to adjust until there is no movement. I sent Burris scopes back because they would not ever get right. But we are talking BR quality, not a simple handgun scope. I have Loopies and Tasco scopes right on the money to the marks.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

:) Thanks for the info and your expertise...I thank you all for the impute, the only hand gun scope I have is a 2x on my 30-30 TC with 14" bbl.
I am very happy with that rig...so I thought I would ask about the revolvers...My eyes ain't what they once waz:redneck::redneck::drinks:

[gray wolf]

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Parallax in Rifle Scopes









OPTICS TECH: PARALLAX EXPLAINED (Analysis by U.S. Optics (http://www.usoptics.com/))
Whenever rifle scopes are discussed, a topic that frequently arises is parallax. There seems to be a great amount of misunderstanding and confusion concerning this subject. Parallax can be defined appropriately to rifle scopes as the apparent movement of objects within the field of view in relation to the reticle.

http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/i/Products/Parallax_Diagramx400.gifIn a telescopic sight, parallax occurs when the “primary image” of the object is formed either in front of, or behind the reticle. If the eye is moved from the optical axis of the scope, this also creates parallax.

If the primary image is formed on the same focal plane as the reticle, or if the eye is positioned in the optical axis of the scope, then there is no parallax, regardless of the position of the primary image.

High magnification scopes, or scopes for long-range shooting, where even slight sighting errors would be serious, should be equipped with a parallax adjustment. This adjustment of the objective part of the optical system would ensure that the target can be brought in the exact focal plane of the reticle at any distance. Tactical style scopes are not usually supplied with parallax adjustment because the exact range of the target can never be anticipated. Scopes of lower magnification are not usually supplied with parallax adjustment either, because at lower powers the amount of parallax is so small as to have no importance for practical, fast target acquisition.

http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/i/Products/parallax.gif

TWO FACTORS WHICH CAUSE AND DETERMINE THE AMOUNT OF PARALLAX IN A RIFLESCOPE:

1. The distance of the target to the objective--The objective lens forms a primary image of the subject being viewed and subsequent components invert the image, and there is no parallax. The actual position at which the image is formed is dependent on the distance the target is from the objective. Closer targets are formed farther away from the objective and farther targets are formed closer to the objective. Since the reticle is in a fixed position within the scope housing, the image is not always formed in the same plane as the reticle and, hence parallax.

2. The distance the eye can move from the optical axis of the scope, is determined by exit pupil size. There is no parallax, at any distance, as long as the eye is lined up exactly with the optical axis of the scope. An exit pupil small enough to do this would be impractical. It is important to know that in every scope, there is some parallax. It is also important to know that in every scope, there is some one shooting distance at which there is no parallax. In most rifle scopes this one point of zero parallax is usually placed at a suitable mid-range point in the scopes' focal range.

In lower-quality scopes, there are other sources of parallax. If the reticle is not precisely placed the correct distance from the objective, the distance of no parallax will be exaggerated. Reticles that are not securely mounted and allowed to move even a few thousandths of an inch, will always have changing amounts of parallax. Parallax is also caused by optical deficiencies in the objective, either by design or manufacture. If spherical or astigmatic aberrations have not been corrected, images will form a considerable distance from the reticle. If you see a scope in which the apparent movement of the reticle compared with the image viewed is different from when you move your eye up and down than when you mover your eye side to side, it is because of a bad objective. No adjustment of the scope will eliminate these faults or optical deficiencies.

You can check the parallax of any scope by sighting an object at normal shooting distance (not indoors), by moving your eye side to side (then up and down), as far as you can, keeping the sighted object within the field of view. The apparent movement of the reticle in relation the target is parallax.





PARALLAX CORRECTIVE METHODS (Optics Design)

I. REAR (SECOND FOCAL PLANE TYPE) CORRECTIVE ADJUSTMENTS.

This feature is usually a numbered range ring from minimum yardage (usually 50) to maximum yardage (usually infinity) and sets directly in front of the eyepiece, similar to the usual variable power ring but controls the Parallax Adjustment. This is almost always found only on fixed power scopes, due to the internal construction. This adjustment is usually found on scopes of more than 8x and less than 20x. Some Examples are Tasco, Phrobis and Baush&Lomb tactical scopes.

Advantages:
• Is near the shooter and can be reached easily. Cheap to make.

Disadvantages:
• Very coarse adjustment and hard to use, especially on higher power.
• Left eye cannot see the yardage indicator while looking through the scope and movement is extremely coarse.
• Difficult, if not impossible, to make work on conventional variable-power scopes.

II. MIDDLE (TURRET/SADDLE TYPE) CORRECTIVE METHOD

Usually on left side of turret with yardage increments printed around the radius of a third knob. Designed to be easily reachable and adjustable with left hand while looking through scope. An example is Leupold Mark IV Tactical (or NightForce NXS in illustration).

Advantages:
• Easy reachable from shooting position.

Disadvantages:
• Most companies using this style build it in such a way as to not be able to easily read the yardage numbers without shifting ones head from the eyepiece. This lessens the utility.
• With some other brands of scopes we've tested it is difficult to achieve maximum target sharpness with near-zero parallax. There are many reasons for this, including sloppy production tolerances.
• Is very coarse and not as finely tunable, particularly at higher power without putting a very large (3" or larger) knob on, which again, defeats the concept.
• Has more mechanical systems to fail. More expensive to make, if done well

[EDITOR'S NOTE: When using Leupold side-focus scopes, such as the 6.5-20X LRT, lash in the focus knob can lead to focusing problems. When this happens your target is slightly out-of-focus when you've got the parallax "dialed-down" as much as possible. To get better, more repeatable focus, you should rotate the side-focus knob ALL the way forward to the infinity stop before setting the parallax adjustment. Go slowly. If you go past the point where parallax is minimized and focus is sharp, then go all the way back to the infinity stop and start again.]

III. FRONT (OBJECTIVE LENS TYPE)

http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/i/Products/Weaver_T-36-1.jpg

This is one of the oldest, most proven and still the probably the best and most versatile system optically and mechanically. Either very fine or rapid gain fast threads can be used, depending on the application. If made properly, it can be as rugged and abuse resistant, as the three other types of adjustment, while offering many advantages the first two methods don’t have. This method is usually seen as a fixed objective, (set at the factory and non-adjustable w/o special tools), or fully adjustable by hand.

Advantages:
• Optically the most proven and efficient.
• Mechanically, the most versatile and effective way.
• Historically, fixed objective scopes up to 10x have been most accepted by the military because of ruggedness.

Disadvantages:
• On extremely long scopes can be hard to reach from the shooter’s position.
• Cannot easily see the range or yardage increments from shooter’s position.
• Can Leak easier,( on hand adjustable models), if not made well

IV. U.S. OPTICS "ERGO" ADJUSTMENT SYSTEM

http://usoptics.com/images/scopes/sn6.jpg

After many years of designing and building scopes for myself and other companies, we think this system, which is a refinement of #3 above, has all the advantages of the above systems and none of the disadvantages. Those advantages are:

• One can see the yardage increments very clearly with the left eye while looking through the scope with the right eye.
• Is easily reachable while in shooting position.
• Has a finer adjustment than knob-turret type designs.
• Can be made to accommodate slow or rapid gain operation, depending on the need and application.
• Can be made as rugged and sealable as necessary.
• Is modularly modifiable for different applications.

US Optics can build all four of the above systems, depending on the need, but prefer and recommend the #4 ERGO system by far.




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[Shuz]

Slow Elk 45/70--Have you considered a fiber optic insert on your front site? I have one that is made by SDM and sold by Dillon,on my S&W 629 Classic DX 5" and I love it for hunting. I also have the stock Hi-Viz one that came on my S&W 329PD. Great for "close social work". I too, have over 70 year old eyes, and shoot iron sites with aid of a Merit optical device, and the fiber optics without the Merit. I have tried various Red Dot type sites down thru the years and have found them awkward to use on a handgun. YMMV!

[44man]

My ultra Dots get so easy it is crazy. I can't tell you how many deer I have dropped on a dead run through the thick.
They grow on you until you will never use anything else.

[DougGuy]

So, at the #23rd reply to this thread, after some VERY informative material on parallax has been posted, parallax has been discussed, I am sorta leaning to parallax being set @100yds by Leupold MAY be contributing to your group sizes @25yds, MAY be, my suggestion is you should probably try an Ultradot or one of the other rugged dots.

I doubt I could swing a SBH up on a moving target and have anywhere NEAR the accuracy and speed of getting the sights on target and getting a good, aimed, well placed shot off with iron sights. I would probably fall head over heels in love with a decent dot, just the cost of the good ones are pretty much more than what I paid for the SBH and the Vaquero added together. One can petition Santa I guess?

[44man]

Ultra Dots have gone up but are still the best for the money. I broke so much stuff over the years I called Magnum Research to see what they used, told me Ultra Dot and I have not looked back.
There is no way on earth I could get opens on a moving deer. I would not get a scope on one either.
The Ultra Dot 30mm is $176 now, much more then my first ones.
Ultra Dot West always paid postage too. Midway catalog #32 shows $150, then postage. I don't have a new price. Just checked, $200 plus shipping.
Go direct.

[Mark454]

I use a 1" tube Millett on my 454 srh. It was $69 and has held zero with over 200 full house rounds and countless "warm" colt loads.

153626

[Markbo]

This works for me on my 44mag and 357mag. Easier to pick up than the open micro red dots. Adjustable dot size and brightness adjustments and lifetime warranty.149664


What mount is that? Is it D&T or just screw/pin?

[Fernando]

I'm no expert but have settled on ultra dot's
Tried a few others including some big $$ ones.
Work on everything from .22 - 45 ruger only's
Hope this link works
Facts and Figures About Dot Sights (http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm)

[murf205]

154040
Slow Elk: I have a ruger bisley hunter and 6" ruger gp100 both scoped with 2X leupolds. This a real good way to find out how much you shake. I'm not a huge fan of the red dot scopes, just old fashioned I guess. The red dots (depending on the moa size of the dot) can cover up a lot of your target. Probably will still be "minute of can" accurate. Good luck in your quest for optics. Old blind guys have to do what they have to do to keep shooting.
Siamese4570
Ditto on the 2x Leupy AND us "old blind guys". I have one that has taken a ride on some revolvers that kick like mules and it has held zero with a death grip. If you hunt with it get a trigger stick to keep it steady(er). On my Ruger SRH I wear a welding glove on my left hand to shield the fingers from the blast because I tend to get a steadier hold by gripping in front of the trigger guard. You wont believe how warm a welding glove is! Here is the gun minus the scope. I put a loooongg swivel stud through the bottom of the grip to hold one end of a shotgun sling and loop the other end around the barrel for really easy carry. Murf