Multiple 9mm handguns = more than one bullet diameter?

[vincewarde]

OK, I don't think there is any way around this - but hey, no problem in asking, right?

I have to cast for several 9mm's that have bore diameters ranging from a tight .355 to a not so tight .3565. Is there any way I can use one bullet diameter for all of them without leading? Currently, I load some 9mm with .356 bullets and others with .3575-.358 bullets. One diameter (and one load for all) would be SO MUCH EASIER.

I have lots of hardball, some Lyman #2 and some WW alloy - would any of these be better as a single load for all of the pistols?

Thanks!

[Motor]

I size all my 9mms to .358" and I haven't found a 9x19 that wouldn't shoot them great yet.

Don't think I'm strange I've seen plenty of other guys agree. Let's see if some will chime in. :)

Motor

[Vann]

Same here I size them all to .358 also.

[tazman]

I also size mine to .358. This also allows me to use them in my 38 special as well.

[bobthenailer]

I have three 9mm's and two 38 supers I use .357 dia cast in all ! even in the two match barrels that measure @.355 dia, I get my best accuracy with .357 dia bullets over .356 dia bullets

[OptimusPanda]

I size to .358", seems to work fine. I end up using that diameter in all my 38/357s, 9's, and .380s. Except for a troublesome ppk that slugs .358 but even there it only leads minimally and not worth keeping a seperate bullet as I dont shoot it often.

[aap2]

I size my 9mm boolits from my MiHec mould to .357 and they shoot great in a Glock 19 with factory barrel as well as in my SigSauer X5. I use mixed range brass which includes some military cases and find that if I size to .358 some of the cartridges are too fat to chamber as easily as I like (unless I apply an excessive taper crimp which swages the boolit down and that's a wasted effort)..When I load WW or other thin commercial brass I size to .358 and they fit fine and I use these for accurate target shooting (not sure if they are more accurate than the .357 boolits). But I agree that sizing to one diameter simplifies things; since we shoot coffee-cans full of 9mm one sizing diameter is a good idea. I'm going to hone out a spare sizing die to .3575 and use if for all my 9mm.

[bedbugbilly]

I do what taxman does . . luckily, most of my molds that I have that I use in 9mm drop at .358 or a tad bigger and I don't size them at all. They seem to work just fine out of my 9mm . . but I only have two - a SR9 and a Shield.

[Ed_Shot]

+1 for .358. I'm now up to loading for 7 different 9MM's (CZ, BHP, 3 Glocks w/LW barrels, Hi Point Carb, Ruger BH) and have never slugged a barrel....they are what they are and .358 works perfectly in all. Same .358 goes for Ruger, Colt and Bersa 380's as well as .38/.357 in rifles and pistols.

[captaint]

I only have 2 9mm's. A DW PM9 and a Beretta 92FS. They both get the .358 treatment. The PM9 leaded up on anything smaller. I think the Beretta was OK with .357 though.

[Scharfschuetze]

+1 on the .358 diameter.

Works a treat in my M9 Beretta and Browning High Power.

[rsrocket1]

My S&W M&P9 and Shield 9 have throats just over 0.356" in diameter so unless I size my boolits to 0.356", if any part of the driving band sits above the case, they won't pass the plunk test and consequently won't allow the slide to close on the gun about 50% of the time. My Lee 356-120-TC and TL356-124-2R molds drop boolits at 0.358" and after powder coating, they average 0.361".

Recently, my son asked for me to potentially load for a Beretta M9. I know Berettas are notorious for having wide groove diameters and since I won't be able to slug a gun 1800 miles away, the only way I could load and have a prayer that the bullets won't lead the barrel is to see if I can load to 0.358" AND hopefully still use these for my S&W guns. Those barrels slug at 0.3545"

I took measurements before and after with PC'ed unsized bullets seated to where just the cone sits above the rim and to where all TL grooves are below the rim and the pulled bullets still kept at least 0.358". I used the Lee 38 S&W expansion plug in the 9mm Powder Through Expansion Die (poor man's Lyman "M" die) and closed the flare with the Lee separate Taper Crimp Die for 9mm. They plunked just fine in the S&W barrels and shot just fine out on the range. Another plus is that I can use these same bullets in my Ruger Service Six .357 magnum revolver. The down side is that I can't load the 9mm nearly as hot because of the reduced volume and increased pressure. I was able to load 5g Unique with the bullets seated shallow for MV's of about 1100 fps out of a 4.25" barrel. With the deeper set bullets, I had to reduce the load down to about 4.4g and got MV's about 1020 fps.

But this would be worth it if I can shoot the same boolits and load across all 9mm platforms.
149653

[sigep1764]

I have one load for a G19, G26, CW9, CZ75B, and XD9. Sized to 358, 2.8 grains Red Dot, 147 grain hollowpoints from the Elco mold by NOE, at 1.125 oal. I may not be getting the max level of accuracy, but a hundred rounds in a hole the size of a fist at 30 feet from any one of those guns is a normal day at the range.

[Larry Gibson]

I have sized cast for the 9mm from .356 to .358 and had no problems until recently. Some newer chambers are tighter than older ones and with the .358 sized bullets in some cases chambering problems resulted. Fell back to .357 and all is well again.

Larry Gibson

[garym1a2]

I powder coat all mine and size them to .357. Plus my expander die is a Lee with the 38S&W insert. Works good in G19 and both Storm Lake and Lone wolf Glock conversion barrels. They also work fine in my CX4 storm 9mm carbine.

[NuJudge]

I have a Browning HiPower that has a chamber that will not admit a cartridge loaded with a bullet whose diameter is more than .356". The groove diameter is a bit larger than .356".

[DougGuy]

You may end up throating some of the barrels so you can use the same boolit and same COA for more than one of them. I usually throat the 9mm barrels to .3585" with enough 3° freebore in the throat to handle whatever COA the customer wants. Dummies sent with barrels are always very welcome.

[vincewarde]

OK everybody, you all really need to work hard at coming up with a consensus :)

Seriously, thanks to everyone - I will give that a try. I do fear that I will run into the same problem as aap2 did with my Bro-sto barrel on my Colt Commander.

[Petrol & Powder]

The varying diameters of 9mm barrels is without a doubt my number one complaint concerning cast bullets and 9mm pistols. They are all over the place ! I can cast & size bullets that work well in some of my 9mm pistols but I cannot get all of them to work with the same bullet diameter. Some will lead and others will not chamber. I played with it a little while and gave up.

My solution was to pick one gun and size bullets for that gun. The other guns get jacketed bullets, sorry I know this is a cast bullet forum but that's where I landed. If I ever take up powder coating maybe that will change. I'm set up with a lubersizer and for now that's where I'm staying.

[Tom W.]

Dummies sent with barrels are always very welcome.


And you can always find them at the LGS....[smilie=1::bigsmyl2:

[Outpost75]

I have found that 9mm barrels with NATO type chambers work best with .358 bullets and those with SAAMI or CIP commercial chambers need .357"

Most important is having a bullet design in which seating depth does not place the bullet base deeper than 123-grain hardball, so as to avoid the bullet base impinging against the internal case wall taper. I have had good results with Accurate 36-155D sized appropriately for the chamber type, with 3.2 grains of Bullseye in most guns, up to 3.6 being OK if needed for reliable function.

[paul edward]

I started loading 9mm Luger in 1973 for my HP and a friend's P-38 using a Lyman 356402 mold and sizing to .356. Accuracy was so poor, compared to FMJ, that we gave up on cast boolits for these pistols. With the information learned on this site, I am now ready to cast a batch, size them .358, and see how they work.

[NuJudge]

I have two post-war P38 pistols. Both have barrels that are about .3575" groove diameter. Mine seem to like a mild load of 231, more than anything else.

[NavyVet1959]

My CZ-75B Compact must have a pretty tight chamber since rounds that load OK in my Taurus PT92 and PT111 end up jamming into the rifling in the CZ-75B Compact. The Taurus PT92 seems to have a longer leade than the PT111.

https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQ WFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/2015-09-06--loaded-pc-bullet-lee-358-105-swc.jpg

For the CZ-75B, I need to size this bullet to 0.356" and reduce the OAL before it will chamber.

[NavyVet1959]

I used the Lee 38 S&W expansion plug in the 9mm Powder Through Expansion Die (poor man's Lyman "M" die) and closed the flare with the Lee separate Taper Crimp Die for 9mm. They plunked just fine in the S&W barrels and shot just fine out on the range. Another plus is that I can use these same bullets in my Ruger Service Six .357 magnum revolver.

Hmmm... That's an interesting idea... Checking Lee's sites, they sell the parts for their various dies and those expander plugs are $3 each. Definitely cheaper than the Lyman "M" dies for each caliber. Seems like if you can't find one that is perfect, you could just chuck it up in a drill and sand / file it down lightly until it was the right diameter.

Are all the expander plugs the same outer diameter?

I went to Lee's site and collected a list of some of the calibers they provide dies for and then looked up the SAAMI specified bullet sizes for those calibers. I make a table of them:

https://sites.google.com/site/navyvet1959/Hobbies/reloading/caliber-diameters

I'm thinking either the .38-40 might work for 10mm or at worst, take the one for .41 mag and trim the diameter a bit. For .45 ACP, maybe the .45 Shofield would work.

[tazman]

My CZ-75B Compact must have a pretty tight chamber since rounds that load OK in my Taurus PT92 and PT111 end up jamming into the rifling in the CZ-75B Compact. The Taurus PT92 seems to have a longer leade than the PT111.

https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQ WFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/2015-09-06--loaded-pc-bullet-lee-358-105-swc.jpg

For the CZ-75B, I need to size this bullet to 0.356" and reduce the OAL before it will chamber.

This seems to be the case more often than not. Beretta and Taurus barrels tend to have larger chambers and throats than most other brands. They also tend to be more accepting of different boolit styles and OAL than many others.

[rsrocket1]

This seems to be the case more often than not. Beretta and Taurus barrels tend to have larger chambers and leads than most other brands. They also tend to be more accepting of different boolit styles and OAL than many others.
This is tipping the scales more and more for me to make my next 9mm gun a CZ rather than a Beretta.

[NavyVet1959]

This seems to be the case more often than not. Beretta and Taurus barrels tend to have larger chambers and leads than most other brands. They also tend to be more accepting of different boolit styles and OAL than many others.

Since the PT92 is made on machinery that Taurus acquired from Beretta, I'm not sure that it can automatically be compared with other Taurus handguns. The Beretta that I have is a 96 and stainless, so it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison to the Taurus manufactured 92. I suspect that Taurus is probably just continuing to do exactly what Beretta was doing when they were making guns with that machinery. The above photo is of a Lee 358-105-SWC that has been powdercoated and sized to 0.356". It is loaded pretty close to the SAAMI max OAL of 1.169". When I'm loading for a new firearm, I start out at the SAAMI max OAL for the cartridge and work down from there until I can get a round that will reliably feed and completely chamber without jamming the bullet into the lands of the rifling. If it also happens to be an accurate round, all the better. :)

The CZ did not like to chamber that bullet when it was just cast, powdercoated, and not resized. IIRC, I had to reduce the OAL to the point where the shoulder on the SWC was nearly at the mouth of the brass.

[NavyVet1959]

This is tipping the scales more and more for me to make my next 9mm gun a CZ rather than a Beretta.

Why is that? Are you wanting something that is going to be more picky about ammo?

If you are using a round nose or truncated cone profile bullet and loading them so that their change in diameter is right at the case mouth, you are not going to have a problem in the CZ. If you are loading a SWC so that the shoulder of the SWC is well past the case mouth like I am doing above, it could be an issue in some firearms.

I like my CZ-75 Compact. It's pretty trim and compact -- definitely more concealable than the full size Taurus / Beretta 92 and even more concealable than the G29 that I often carry. But then again, my CZ is a 14+1 capacity whereas my Taurus is 17+1. The CZ slide moves *inside* the frame instead of *outside* of it, so it does not give as much of a gripping surface for pulling the slide back as other handguns. That *could* be an issue for some people since you probably need a bit more grip strength to do it. I'm pretty sure my wife would not be able to cycle the slide on it.

[tazman]

This is tipping the scales more and more for me to make my next 9mm gun a CZ rather than a Beretta.

I chose the wrong word. It should have been throat instead of leads. Sorry for the misunderstanding. The Beretta barrels do not lead at all with my boolits. I corrected my earlier post.

[robertbank]

Size all my 9MM bullets .357 with no issues to date. Too, I am now loading my bullets to 1.10 length. If I go longer I run into problems with some bullet designs and pistol combos. For me it is easier just to stick to one OAL for bullet wieght. I have not seen any significant loss in results by doing so.

Take Care

Bob

[captainvette]

I load cast 9mm for 6 different guns:

Sig Sauer P-229
Beretta 92-FS
Beretta PX4 Storm
S&W M&P Shield
Glock 17 Gen 4
KAR PM9

Never slugged any of them.

Molds - Lee 358-125-RF, and Lee 356-120-TC all sized to .358

The 358-125-RF is an awesome bullet for 9mm (even though its a 38/357 bullet) It makes a perfect hole in paper. ZERO leading in any of the guns.

The only problem with it is you have to seat it so deep (0.98 oal) that in order to not get signs of over pressure you have to reduce the powder charge to the point that you cant quite make power factor for IDPA since you get around 925fps. If you dont IDPA this wont matter.

The 356-120-TC easily makes PF at typical oal's and powder charges but it leads a little bit in all the guns... probably because this mold drops just a hair under .358

[NavyVet1959]

I chose the wrong word. It should have been throat instead of leads. Sorry for the misunderstanding. The Beretta barrels do not lead at all with my boolits. I corrected my earlier post.

I had figured you meant "leade" instead of "lead".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/leade

I can see how someone not familiar with the term could not make that correction though.

[NavyVet1959]

This seems to be the case more often than not. Beretta and Taurus barrels tend to have larger chambers and throats than most other brands. They also tend to be more accepting of different boolit styles and OAL than many others.

Just for curiosity's sake, I loaded the Lee 358-105-SWC to SAAMI max OAL of 1.169" in a 9x19 case.

https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQ WFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/lee-358-105-swc-loaded-saami-max-oal-9mm-320w.jpg

Not much of the bullet is in the case, but there is enough that it will crimp on it and hold it there. This is well beyond the max OAL that this bullet profile can be used in my CZ. Even my Taurus PT-111, it will not chamber. It didn't work with the PT-92 either.

Taurus PT111
RB fine
1.004 loads fine
1.082 loads fine
1.084 loads fine
1.085 loads fine
1.097 loads fine
1.106 slight restriction to extraction
1.116 slight restriction to extraction
1.125 slight restriction to extraction
1.138 will not chamber
1.167 will not chamber

CZ-75 Compact
RB FTF
1.004 failure to feed
1.036 loads fine
1.044 loads fine
1.045 slight restriction to extraction
1.046 seemed to work, but bullet got set back to 1.044
1.047 slight restriction to extraction
1.049 chambers, but slight restriction to extraction
1.057 chambers, but slight resistance in extraction
1.066 chambers, but stiff extraction
1.069 will not chamber
1.082 will not chamber

Taurus PT92
RB fine
1.088 fine
1.098 sticky
1.111 sticky
1.122 sticky

[tazman]

Very few if any, 9mm chambers would accept a boolit with the shoulder that far out of the case.
My issue with that boolit was when I got it loaded short enough that it would pass the plunk test, it wouldn't feed reliably from the magazine. Undoubtedly this is just a problem with my particular weapon, but with the boolit designs available, I don't need to force that one to work. The Lee 356-95-rf feeds perfectly for me and shoots accurately as well.

[NavyVet1959]

Ended up settling on 1.044" OAL for the three guns. Also tried a round ball load and it would feed in the PT-111 and PT-92, but not the CZ-75.

[GabbyM]

yo must sort your brass in 9mm or any other pistol round I am familiar with.

[tazman]

yo must sort your brass in 9mm or any other pistol round I am familiar with.

For the use I put them to, that isn't necessary. I use them for practice, blasting, and social purposes. Match accuracy is not required. I can get 2 inch groups at 10 yards with mixed brass and my Beretta barrels eat them like candy with a good boolit design.
I buy bulk range brass on the cheap. If I sorted brass, I would throw most of it away.
When I want my best accuracy, I get out my S&W model 14.

[robertbank]

yo must sort your brass in 9mm or any other pistol round I am familiar with.

Gabby for some of us who shoot large amounts of ammo annually through our handguns sorting brass would be a full time job and accomplish little. MOA accuracy even if attainable, is not necessary for the uses I have for my handguns. In the case of my practice 38spl brass I shoot it until either I get case mouth splits or the case splits. Then and only then does it get to the recycle box. Match ammo is a different animal and I do try to shoot once or twice fired brass. Split cases can sometimes present problems with ejection in the revolver and worn rims can present problems with pistol cycling. When practicing such problems allow for experience in clearing the issues. Not such a good thing when shooting a match.

Take Care

Bob

[rsrocket1]

When sized to 0.356", all these rounds would plunk just fine in my M&P 9 FS and Shield 9 barrels. If left unsized, I would have to seat the bullet as deep as the cartridge shown on the left. That leaves little room for powder and sends the pressure way up. No setback even after multiple chamberings.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/Shoot/85ab52e4-bfc5-49e2-b2bb-2b8d3a72bbb1_zpsaqx5asup.jpg

[tazman]

When sized to 0.356", all these rounds would plunk just fine in my M&P 9 FS and Shield 9 barrels. If left unsized, I would have to seat the bullet as deep as the cartridge shown on the left. That leaves little room for powder and sends the pressure way up. No setback even after multiple chamberings.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/Shoot/85ab52e4-bfc5-49e2-b2bb-2b8d3a72bbb1_zpsaqx5asup.jpg

That seems to be the only issue with powder coating. It increases the diameter of the nose to the place where it may not chamber as originally designed. It may work quite well as cast and normally lubed but not with an extra 2-3 thousandths added to the diameter of the nose.
I had that problem with a similar design which is a good part of the reason I stopped powder coating.

[Scharfschuetze]

Interesting comment Taz. I haven't had that issue with the truncated nose designs, but I can see where it would be an issue with the boolits in your photo.

On the other hand, it might be a good way to bump up the nose riding portion of rifle boolits that are slightly undersized. I'm going to have to think on that as my Lyman 311332 mould could use another thousandths or two on the nose.

[tazman]

Interesting comment Taz. I haven't had that issue with the truncated nose designs, but I can see where it would be an issue with the boolits in your photo.

On the other hand, it might be a good way to bump up the nose riding portion of rifle boolits that are slightly undersized. I'm going to have to think on that as my Lyman 311332 mould could use another thousandths or two on the nose.

I didn't have any issues with tc designs either. Just on boolits with a bore rider nose that was close to bore size. They get just a little too big and jam in the rifling when they should just slide in.
If you have a nise section that is a bit too small, it might make the situation better for you.

[DocSavage]

I have 5 different 9 mm pistols and will be trying. 358 124 gr truncated in the near future. The only one I might have a concern about is a Beretta 92 fs with a Barsto barrel that mics at .3555 and match chamber.

[robertbank]

tazman if you use 9MM cases fixed on a tray I can avoid painting the olgive completely. Works well. I used pop rivets to attach the cases to a tray. I then placed the bullets nose down into the case and painted the sides and bottom of the case leaving the olgive unpainted. Seems to work quit well.

Take Care

Bob

[Ola]

9 mm is a great example if one wants to understand the difference between jacketed and lead bullet.

Take a commercial 9 mm bullet and push it in a 9 mm pistol barrel. Not jacketed, but f.e. copper-plated in .355. Take a look and you'll see.

It is just amazing how loosely .355 bullet fits in the rifling. You'll start wondering "maybe .358 isn't big enough.."

[EDK]

yo must sort your brass in 9mm or any other pistol round I am familiar with.

My range pick up gets checked in a DILLON case gauge, tumbled and sorted into nickel plated or brass. My local range is used for training by various federal agencies and police departments plus pretty active IDPA. The pickings are pretty good after a match or the various LEOs do their thing.
I'm currently running the LEE 120 TC with a 15 BRINNELL and a 357 push through with BEN'S LIQUID LUBE in a GLOCK 17 and 26. A couple passes with a stainless brush after each range session and it looks like new.

[tazman]

tazman if you use 9MM cases fixed on a tray I can avoid painting the olgive completely. Works well. I used pop rivets to attach the cases to a tray. I then placed the bullets nose down into the case and painted the sides and bottom of the case leaving the olgive unpainted. Seems to work quit well.

Take CareBob

I am not set up for ES powder coating. I was using the dry tumble method, hence my problem. Your method should work perfectly.

[NavyVet1959]

That seems to be the only issue with powder coating. It increases the diameter of the nose to the place where it may not chamber as originally designed. It may work quite well as cast and normally lubed but not with an extra 2-3 thousandths added to the diameter of the nose.
I had that problem with a similar design which is a good part of the reason I stopped powder coating.

A person might think that an extra 0.002-0.003" to the diameter wouldn't make much difference, but they need to consider the fact that it is not so much the diameter that is affecting things, but the slope angle of the bullet's profile at that point and how it meets that slope angle of the barrel. For example, 0.002" increase in diameter would mean 0.001" on each side. We can treat this as a triangle for our calculations. If the slope of the bullet was 45°, then that portion of the bullet would be 0.001" further forward. If it is some sort of elongated rounded nose bullet profile where the curve gradually curves back to intersect the base diameter of the bullet, you might only be talking about a 5° slope at that point in the curve. So, to calculate this:

From basic high school trigonometry:
tan(θ) = opposite / adjacent

In this case, "opposite" is the increase in the radius of the bullet due to the powder coating and "adjacent" is the distance that equates to given that slant angle.

tan(5) = 0.001" / adjacent
adjacent = 0.001" / tan(5)
adjacent = 0.01143"

Good enough for the shallow slant angles that we would be most concerned about, but I suspect that if we really looked at how the powder was being laid down on the bullet, it wouldn't be in relation to the slant angle, but rather closer to just being perpendicular to the surface of the bullet at that point. Whether you are using electrostatic or ASBB tumble powder coating might affect how the powder was deposited also. For the portion of the bullet profile that we need to be concerned about though, I suspect the above is a good enough approximation.

[tazman]

NavyVet1959-- Thanks for the great explanation. I could see it in my mind but didn't think of the right words.