Manstopper bullet for the 38 special

[Frank46]

Interesting article in the latest handloader magazine. At some point in time the Brits had a 45 caliber manstopper bullet for their 455 webley revolvers. Big hollow point bullet. Well Bob Haley in texas came up with one for the 38 special same as it's bigger brother but at 140 grains. !40 grains would easily get to 800 fps without straining anything. Good article. And get the single shot mag from wolf publishing while you are at it. Good read. Frank

[Skipper]

Just load a hollow-base wadcutter backwards.

[huntersdog]

Back some time ago a guy took alot of deer in one season using the 38 sp Buffalo bore ammo. I bet it would stop a man, if you did your job.

[Rustyleee]

Just load a hollow-base wadcutter backwards.

We loaded 148 Gr HBWC backwards back in the 70's. They expand to about .50 cal when shot into wet sand, wet newspaper, or water

[DeputyDog25]

+1 on hollow based WC backwards

[Ola]

Man stopper.. Long time ago I had some 9mm THV bullets. I feel almost fortunate that they are all long gone. Scary stuff.

In .38SPL the original THV-bullet would be launched appr. 2300 fps! THV-bullet causes massive tissue trauma, no over penetration, will go through soft body armor. They are also quite accurate at short distances and the recoil is mild.

Here is video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q44shCovQk) of a "modernized" (read: heavier and slower) Slovakian THV bullet vs. Class III body armor + gelatin.

[Sasquatch-1]

OK, not 38 but 44. Will these work.


149626


149627

Swaged with my Dave Corbin dies, 40 S&W brass and dead soft lead.

[Outpost75]

How about THIS one? HOLLOWPOINTED with a "cavernous cup point" by www.hollowpointmold.com

And a hefty charge of Alliant #2400 for +P...

149640

[2ndAmendmentNut]

For all the guys talking about a HBWC loaded backwards. How do you all get accuracy at 25yards? I tried the HBWC loaded backwards but got very poor accuracy and poor penetration. About the only thing they did do was expand, but then again a soft lead wadcutter loaded properly gave good expansion and way better penetration.

[gunauthor]

That is one bad assed lookin' boolit !!!!

[Char-Gar]

I don't think the term "man stopper" really applies to ANY handgun bullet. It would take a bullet that shut down instantly the nervous system to do that, and that is a shot placement and not a bullet shape issue.

That aside, some bullet will be better than others at taking the fight out of a fellow. In the 38 Special, I favor a very heavy full wadcutter bullet for that task. These range in weight from 200 to 230 grains and were designed to drive bowling pins back off the table, which I can attest, they surely do.

Here is a such a bullet that weights 220 grains that I load over 9 grains of AA9. in 38 Special cases. The velocity is a smidge over 800 fps but they do pack a wallop. Recoil is not bad, but expect them to NOT shoot to the sights, hitting about 6 inches high at seven yards. Put the front sight, lower than normal and roll the trigger. I should think a pair of these center mass will do about as good as anything would. Expect whatever is behind the bad guy to take the bullet as well.

These are most certainly +P loads. I would not use them in an aluminium frame gun, an older gun or plink with them. I do not shoot them in my small frame snubbies either.

[Ola]

Char-Gar, that picture on the right.. wow

[Char-Gar]

For all the guys talking about a HBWC loaded backwards. How do you all get accuracy at 25yards? I tried the HBWC loaded backwards but got very poor accuracy and poor penetration. About the only thing they did do was expand, but then again a soft lead wadcutter loaded properly gave good expansion and way better penetration.

Back in the mid-60s I played with these backward loaded HBWC as well with the same result as you did. I abandoned the concept. A solid base or sturdy HB loaded over 3.5/Bulleye will make a decent defense load in the 38. A thin skirted HB like the Speer will blow off the skirts at this pressure, so beware.

[cainttype]

Deep penetration at 700-725 fps is a given through a snub-nose with these large HPed pure lead swaged heavies.

[44man]

The .38 has caused more cop deaths from sad performance then anything. Nine not better. My slingshot is better. My carry would start at the .45 and go up.

[Outpost75]

Back in the mid-60s I played with these backward loaded HBWC as well with the same result as you did. I abandoned the concept. A solid base or sturdy HB loaded over 3.5/Bulleye will make a decent defense load in the 38. A thin skirted HB like the Speer will blow off the skirts at this pressure, so beware.

Way back in American Rifleman, Ed Harris did a "From the Loading Bench" article on backwards loaded wadcutters, testing the different brands from Colts, S&Ws and Rugers. Expansion could not be depended upon because bullets often yawed, and accuracy was not dependable beyond 7-10 yards. At 25 yards you may as well throw rocks. A "full charge" wadcutter having the same powder charge as 158-grain LRN or SWC service loads, typically 3.5 grains of Bullseye, versus 2.7-2.8 for a target load, gives much more dependable results. Remington-Bridgeport factory loaded full charge wadcutters as practice ammo for the NYPD before about 1970, the rationale being that they had recoil similar to service loads (hollowpoints not being acceptable for political reasons), but Jim Cirillo and others on the SOU carried and used them, knowing they were more effective than the standard velocity 158-grain SWC issued at the time.

The Remington 148-grain HBWC component bullet is the ONLY factory-swaged .38 wadcutter bullet out there which will stand a full charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye without blowing the skirt. It has a heavier skirt and is formed from harder alloy than the Winchester, Speer, Zero, Hornady or Precision-Delta bullets. Remington's engineers figured this out loading full charge wadcuters by the millions for NYPD. Accuracy of the Remington 148 HBWC bullets with full charges when fired at 50 yards from a heavy test barrel in return to battery rest is very nearly as good as their Targetmaster wadcutter match load. Very little difference. No so with any other brand I have tried.

If you load .38 HBWC bullets in .38 Special brass and then shoot them in revolvers having .357 chambers, even with light loads, you still risk blowing the skirt, because peak chamber pressure is reached before the bullet base clears the case mouth, so that the unsupported hollow base is then inflated to conform with the .380" diameter of the longer .357 chamber, bridging against the transition from the .380 chamber wall to the .358 ball seat, as the nose of the bullet continues forward, stretching and elongating the skirt until it ruptures. Use ONLY solid-based double-end wadcutters when loading .38 Special wadcutter ammo to be fired in revolvers having .357 chambers!

In a .357 gun, a charge of 9 grains of Alliant #2400, loaded in .38 Special cases, with a solid 146-grain DEWC like the Saeco #348, gives 900+ fps from a 2-1/2" S&W Model 19 and is a different breed of cat!

149654149655

See http://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

[DougGuy]

Guy gets out of jail in Va. Beach, VA on bond for two counts of armed robbery. Tells his gf he will have her money in a couple of hours. Goes to a gun store where he attempts to rob the owner with his .25 Iver Johnson semi automatic pistol. The pistol will not fire, and after a lengthy scuffle the gun shop owner draws the S&W airweight from his back pocket and empties it into the torso of the thug.

The police get there and the paramedics are dragging the thug out from behind the counter so they can get him onto a gurney, and bullets are falling out of his jacket onto the floor. After the investigation is over, and the gun shop owner is not charged, the detectives return to the gun shop later to ask about the ammunition the owner used in his .38 snubbie, because THEY want some of it. The owner informs them that he had loaded the cylinder alternating Federal Hydrashok +P+ with PMC ultramags.

During the investigation, the Iver Johnson semi auto is found underneath a counter in the gun shop, round in the chamber, safety engaged. In his robbery attempt, the thug had inadvertently engaged the safety instead of disengaging it. Some people learn everything the hard way. Me? I got some hydrashok +P+ for my snubbie.

[cainttype]

I was under the impression we were discussing the 38, but given choice I'd certainly choose a 45 acp.
Truth is, the only defensive firearm that's worth anything, is the one you have when you need it. That said, there are definitely times when a compact 38 can be discretely carried that the 45 would be left at home, even a "compact" 45.
As far as the heavier versions of 38s go (Outpost75's drawing, Char-Gar's heavy bowling pin busters, or the HPs I mentioned), I doubt seriously that anyone with experience using them would question their viability as very effective self-defense medicine...They can deliver much better performance capabilities than those unfamiliar with them would imagine.

[Beagle333]

200gr 358430. This should do it.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t34.0-12/11992412_10205159790529883_1604636614_n.jpg?oh=18a 98577b23b0d4afd71fe10cebf0e81&oe=560704E6

[azrednek]

I'm a big believer in a large HP. I've mentioned this before here and other gun boards. While I was a juror on a Grand Jury we sent (against my no vote) an assault indictment forward. Shooter shot bad guy ruled a justifiable shooting but bullet went through striking woman that was in no way involved. I worry about over penetration and immediately switched my carry gun to 38 HP's from 357's.

Prosecutor would not allow cop to give details on justifiable shooting or even the caliber used.

[Outpost75]

That is one bad assed lookin' boolit !!!!

Here is the "Crook's Eye" view, CharGar and I think alike...

149661

The mold is now off to Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com for insert bar conversion to
"Cavernous Cup Point" which will reduce weight to about 185 grains in 1:40 tin/lead.

[Good Cheer]

In the brief period between being old enough to carry a revolver and starting to reload, I got Bullseye with .38 HBWC loads from a guy I worked with. He had some brand of progressive press and would end up with some loaded backwards. They were accurate enough for rabbit heads in the Security Six.

For hotter HBWC loads developed just for expansion, these from the Lyman mold were for an air weight snubby.

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/snubby%20tests_zpsffep6ure.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/snubby%20tests_zpsffep6ure.jpg.html)

[Char-Gar]

Outpost....I have never fired a HBWC in a 38 Special case in the long magnum charge hole, because I just never have. I am glad to know it is a bad idea, in case I should ever be moved to do so. Thanks for the heads up. It makes sense, but I just never thought about it.

I do load solid based wadcutters in the 357 Mag using 11 grains of 2400. The accuracy even out of 50 yards is outstanding and they are less than full snort loads. They are a giant step beyond 38 Special, but still easy on K frame guns like the Model 19. I have also loaded some (357 Mag) using 7.5 grains of the old Israel made AA5. The AA5 loads deliver the same accuracy and shoot to the same POI as the 11/2400 loads.

The only HBWCs I have fired over 3.5/Bulleye are the now discontinued Miester versions. They are up to the task. Here is a pic. I still have a couple of thousand, but shoot them over 3/BE, preferring the super flat nose Hensley and Gibbs for full charge wadcutters.

Yep, that Ed Harris is a pretty smart dude. His experience the backwards loaded HBWC is like mine, but I have never tested it as through. I loaded a few hundred and found that beyond very short range, they were not dependable. I was doing most of my shooting of those things with a Colt Coba (2") and gave up he notion pretty quick. I think it was Skelton who first mentioned it in print, or at least was the first one I read.

BTW...I finally found those black powder 44-40's last week, they were well hidden, but I finally moved the right box and there they were. If all goes as intended, I will get them in the mail to you next week.

[Walkingwolf]

The .38 has caused more cop deaths from sad performance then anything. Nine not better. My slingshot is better. My carry would start at the .45 and go up.

What caused cops deaths by firearm is the *** criminals, not the .38, or any other round. Mitigating factors are making mistakes, and poor shot placement. A 22 to the noggin will stop a criminal faster then a .45 super to a finger.

[johniv]

Long ago , the fellow I shot with loaded HBWC in 38 cases , to be shot in his Ruger speed six. Of course being young and dumb, we increased the load till we got 2 holes in the target with each shot. Never had the skirt stick in the bbl. but they certainly came apart.
As for the inverted HBWC, the accuracy was not there at 25 yds,but they were not suppose to be long range loads.
John

[azrednek]

The police get there and the paramedics are dragging the thug out from behind the counter so they can get him onto a gurney, and bullets are falling out of his jacket onto the floor.

.

DougGuy pardon my being dense!! Do you know if the slugs that fell out of his jacket had gone through bad guy's torso or stopped between front of his jacket and body? Was it the Hydrashocks or UltraMags the cops wanted?

I loaded 9MM Federal Hydrashocks in my wife's Beretta PX compact. The recoil is very noticeably less than even non- +P's but if they stop just after penetrating a jacket its time for me to go back to my favorite all-around standby Winchester Silver Tips.

[Walkingwolf]

I carried a factory round when working in crowds, or buildings that basically was a HBWC with a spire in the center. I don't think they are made anymore. I would not carry them today, it was a great idea back then, but I have my doubts to the penetration.

The first six rounds in my GP100 are 138 grain solid wadcutters from Bayou Bullets at 1200 fps. Speed loaders are loaded with 158 SWC at 1050 fps. But on occasion I carry guns with much weaker ballistics, and I am not concerned about power, and weight or expansion. I practice daily, I can hit a head sized target at 10 yards point shooting. While I do not carry 22lr handgun for SD, also long as the gun functioned I would have no problem with carrying one for self defense.

At one time there was a 38/200 police load that was considered effective. But we have moved to speed, size, and capacity and lured into a false sense of security. There are four very small targets on the human body that are effective, the head, the heart, the spine, and the groin. Two will result in loss of motor skills, and two will facilitate bleeding out. One should cause extreme pain.

Nothing will save you if you do not hit a good hit, and the bad guy gets the first debilitating shot on target. It does not matter how many rounds you have, how powerful the cartridge, or bullet design. Don't shot first, and put the bullets where they belong. Train/practice!

[azrednek]

At one time there was a 38/200 police load that was considered effective.


I tried those years ago, late 70's in a 5-shot Charter Arms 38 snubby. The recoil was nasty, nearly as bad as a J-frame 357 125HP. The 38/200's were Remington factory RNL. During that era, best I recall. Police preferred a Super-Vel 110gr HP for their 38 snubbys.

[Char-Gar]

The .38 has caused more cop deaths from sad performance then anything. Nine not better. My slingshot is better. My carry would start at the .45 and go up.

I don't think that statement can be backed up with stats. It is true that the old 155 grain RN load that police used for generations was indeed not a very good fight stopper. But nobody is talking about that load, nor would anyone seriously advocate that load for defense.

When the factories started loading the FBI/Detroit load, which featured a SWC HP at +P pressure and velocities, the lowly 38 Special became another different animal. RCMP loaded a similar bullet at 1,000 fps for their 5" Model 10.

Lee Jurris came out with high speed light weight jacketed HP in his Super-Vel ammo and again the 38 Special was infused with life. Other makers were quick to follow in Lee's footsteps.

A good solid base wadcutter loaded to full charge is also an effective load.

While everybody is free to use what they like, and bigger is better, all things being equal, the 38 Special, thoughtfully loaded, is far from being inferior to a sling shot. It really is not a thoughtful response to say that it is.

[Char-Gar]

I recall the old 38/200 police load very well. I fired a few boxes and hand loaded some more. The bullet was a blunt round nose. These were in the days when the 155 RN was standard police issue and compared to that the 38/200 was more effective.

But, the load was still hampered with a bullet nose that just parted the skin and slipped on in. The extra weight did have more momentum. Getting hit with a bullet that has 25% more weight does make a difference, but these loads do need historical context.

The 38/200 blunt round nose would not a good choice today. There are much better alternatives.

[Thumbcocker]

There were some double hollow base wad cutters offered as a component in the past. The top cavity had a post swagged into it like a hydra shock. No idea who made them but they appeared similar to the Webly .455 manstopper slugs. I had some of them for a while that a friend gave me in a box of assorted gun stuff but never loaded them.

I can tell you that a Lyman 358495 over 4.9 of 231 will shoot through a opossum longways and go on through a chunk of oak siding behind said opossum. The recipient rolled over and was drt. There was a liquid sound when it was picked up. I can also tell you that firing a 358495 over 4.9 of 231 in the small tin roofed feed room of the chicken house late at night makes a nice flash and produces a ringing in the ears for a few days.

[ofitg]

Interesting article in the latest handloader magazine. At some point in time the Brits had a 45 caliber manstopper bullet for their 455 webley revolvers. Big hollow point bullet. Well Bob Haley in texas came up with one for the 38 special same as it's bigger brother but at 140 grains. !40 grains would easily get to 800 fps without straining anything. Good article. And get the single shot mag from wolf publishing while you are at it. Good read. Frank

Since nobody else has mentioned it - the Brits replaced their .455 with a .38/200 round and used the latter during WW2. It seems that the long-ish .38/200 slug has a tendency to tumble upon impact.

[bob208]

years ago I loaded for some town police agencies. the load I used was 358429 loaded to 900 to 1000 fps. in .38 spl. cases. they liked them they would go through a car door or windshield. I have taken a deer with that load. then they went to the 9mm.

[Larry Gibson]

Back when I was a LE firearms/surval tactics instructor I has a bunch of test patches from Second Chance. I put them against a 12" thick stack of soaked newsprint and shot them with numerous loads of various cartridges. When I shot a test patch with the factory Remington 38/200 gr "manstoppers" the bullet bounced back and hit me in the stomach. No injury as I was wearing a Second Chance vest and the bullet bounced off that (left a hole in my shirt though) and landed at my feet. I was not impressed to say the least.

I carry an issue 5" and then a 4" barreled M15 S&W for a number of years as an LEO. In my tenure there we went from 158 gr RNs to 110 JHPs to 125 JHPs and then to the Winchester "FBI" 150 LSWCHP +P. I found that to be the most effective .38 SPL cartridge to use. I duplicate that load by casting 358156 bullets of 40-1 alloy, loading them over 5.5 gr Unique and HPing them to the front drive band with a 1/8" Forster HP tool. Velocity out of a 4" M15 is just at 1000 fps.

They can be made more effective by opening the HP up with a Michaels rear sling swivel stud drill and then fill the HP with silicon seal. The seal stays soft and doesn't alloy the HP to fill up close when shot through dense clothing. The bullet begins to expand immediately. That technique is a pre-curser to the softer plastic tips used in personal defense bullets these days. These are much more effective than an HPWC loaded backwards or any heavier SWC or FN. It's about the best you'll get out of a 38 SPL short of going to the jacketed light weight high velocity frangible bullets.

Larry Gibson

[DougGuy]

DougGuy pardon my being dense!! Do you know if the slugs that fell out of his jacket had gone through bad guy's torso or stopped between front of his jacket and body? Was it the Hydrashocks or UltraMags the cops wanted?

I loaded 9MM Federal Hydrashocks in my wife's Beretta PX compact. The recoil is very noticeably less than even non- +P's but if they stop just after penetrating a jacket its time for me to go back to my favorite all-around standby Winchester Silver Tips.

I think it was the Ultramags that had gone completely through and stopped inside the jacket on the far side, and they were falling out of the jacket onto the floor.

[JWFilips]

"Wadcutter"

[azrednek]

I think it was the Ultramags that had gone completely through and stopped inside the jacket on the far side, and they were falling out of the jacket onto the floor.

Couldn't ask for better performance!! Goes clean through the bad guy but stops before causing any collateral damage.

[9.3X62AL]

It has been a long time since I carried a 38 Special in harm's way. Properly loaded, it can be very effective felon repellant--so my non-use isn't a caliber prejudice. If I could find a 2" Model 10 or a late-series Detective Special at reasonable cost, I would happily do so because I can hit things with either platform--and hit them well. Me--my hands--and the J-frame S&W do not see eye-to-eye, even with aftermarket grips. My agency's approved loads in both 38 Special and 357 Magnum now use 125 grain bullets, which are decent loads.

I lean in Larry Gibson's direction for ammo selection in this caliber, favoring the 150-160 grain SWC at +P prompting if I had my druthers. That isn't a strong preference, because my primary concern is having an arm that I can shoot with the best possible accuracy.......most fixed-sight 38 Specials are regulated for bullets in this weight range, and my experience has been that up to 25 yards the +Ps don't hit very differently than do standard pressure 158s. The 125 grainers DO hit lower at 25 yards, though--2" to 4" lower in some examples. At bad-breath distance, that isn't germane--but there it is.

[Piedmont]

I thought the Handloader article was pretty lame, so it was up to the standard of the rest of the magazine in the recent past to date. So they came up with a cast .38 hollow point. Big deal. Elmer Keith had a cast .38 hollow point out that would expand even before the .357 magnum was introduced.

I also don't understand the fascination of some of you guys with the heavy flat points in a .38. Sure it will work on bowling pins, but a 160 grain flat point loaded to the same pressure will shoot all the way through any man from any angle and if you believe Veral Smith and his theories it will make a larger tissue splash on the way through due to the higher velocity. Now a 200 grain round nose is a different animal IF it tumbles, but those flat points aren't going to tumble.

[Petrol & Powder]

Years ago I did some work with loading HBWC's backwards and I was very unimpressed with the setup. For starters, accuracy was abysmal at any range beyond a few yards and it got really bad at over 15 yards; like not on the paper bad.
Penetration was not acceptable. Often the skirt would fold over and separate from the base. The resulting underweight fragment lacked the mass to go very far. Making matters worse, the 148 grain HBWC starts out about 10 grains lighter than it should be.
I think the big hollow base of a HBWC looks like a huge hollow point when loaded backwards but it clearly doesn't perform like one. I would never recommend the practice of loading them backwards as a makeshift HP. If I was forced to use that bullet for self-defense I would probably still load it in the conventional manner.

I think the 38 Special really does it's best work with bullets in the 155-160 grain range. The standard bullet weight of 158 grains wasn't just tradition or a fluke of history. The 158 grain loading is a sweet spot that combines mass and velocity and accuracy right where that diameter bullet works best.

My first choice is Still the 158gr +P LSWCHP known as the "FBI Load", "Treasury Load", Chicago Load, blah, blah, blah..... Whatever you want to call that combination. If I couldn't have a hollow point, Char-gar's full heavy wadcutter would be my next choice with it's extra weight and full profile flat nose. The solid 158 SWC with a soft alloy and a lot of pressure would be next, followed by a solid 148gr WC loaded as hot as I could possibly get away with as my last choice.

None of my choices would involve a backwards loaded 148 gr HBWC.

[35remington]

I'd reverse your last two choices. As I see it, for anything that needs a little more effectiveness I'd place a solid 148 WC above a solid 158 SWC. The wider meplat of the WC wins, as I see it. A bonus is that ballistic consistency is much better as well.

[Petrol & Powder]

I see your point.
Here's my logic:
I would rather have a bit more weight, coupled with a little less frontal area (= greater penetration ). That is why I put the SWC over the slightly lighter full WC.
I will always take penetration over expansion when talking about self defense rounds. The bullet must reach deep enough to actually damage something important to be effective. Once the penetration is sufficient, bullet expansion becomes the icing on the cake.
I agree that larger frontal area is good but that large meplat is meaningless until it gets deep enough to act upon something. If that lighter bullet with a larger meplat stops short, none of that additional flat frontal area will accomplish a thing to help stop the fight.

[Dutchman]

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rqrsdrgtkrkdtsxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/rkttfwdrwxbsdqbskwrxbswfkdtgb/2/28344/157842/Britishbullets1-vi.jpg

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rqrsdtskssqsqqxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/gsdgfrtsrxgrqrqfdtd/2/28344/157842/Britishbullets2-vi.jpg

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,wdfsgwdtgfkbktqxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/sqtttqtqdxrdfqfgqrgxdgbstgkb/2/28344/6456804/us000634383001WebleyBullet1899-vi.jpg

[SSGOldfart]

Just load a hollow-base wadcutter backwards.
Been doing that for years now I have recovered more than one wadcutter they mushroom better than you'd think.

[SSGOldfart]

For all the guys talking about a HBWC loaded backwards. How do you all get accuracy at 25yards? I tried the HBWC loaded backwards but got very poor accuracy and poor penetration. About the only thing they did do was expand, but then again a soft lead wadcutter loaded properly gave good expansion and way better penetration.
Did you load flash with the case mouth? My groups got better,I shot a couple of goats penetration was about the same both ways,I got better mushrooms loading the right way I really couldn't tell much difference between either!!!!!!!!!!!![smilie=1:

[Char-Gar]

I see your point.
Here's my logic:
I would rather have a bit more weight, coupled with a little less frontal area (= greater penetration ). That is why I put the SWC over the slightly lighter full WC.
I will always take penetration over expansion when talking about self defense rounds. The bullet must reach deep enough to actually damage something important to be effective. Once the penetration is sufficient, bullet expansion becomes the icing on the cake.
I agree that larger frontal area is good but that large meplat is meaningless until it gets deep enough to act upon something. If that lighter bullet with a larger meplat stops short, none of that additional flat frontal area will accomplish a thing to help stop the fight.

It is my understanding and belief that a full charge wadcutter will give quite deep penetration and do more damage on the way than a SWC. The one I use weights 154 grains dressed.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Expanding bullet design is very much like the world of advertising (indeed some of it is advertising), in which if it is high in something, it is low in something else. If it penetrates really well (and the target dressing warm or wearing military webbing may come into it), it delivers energy badly. If it delivers energy really quickly, it may be insufficiently penetrative.

The Webley manstopper bullet was designed for colonial warfare, in which killing someone wasn't of much value (there were always plenty left), but defeating his immediate intentions was. It is surely the extreme in expansion, and perhaps the only kind which wouldn't become plugged and non-expansive due to heavy clothing. But it had obvious snags, well explained by some posters above, even in the very brief period before it was dropped in compliance with international treaties.

Apart from the central nervous system, about the only way a portable and easily shootable pistol can possess instant stopping power is by breaking the major bones used in locomotion. Col. La Garde, in the Chicago stockyards and cadaver testing which led to the adoption of the .45 ACP, became convinced that large caliber, heavy bullets and fairly soft construction were the key to doing this, and velocity didn't matter nearly as much. Small jacketed bullets, even when they had much higher velocity, were much more liable to glance off, or to pierce were bone without shattering it. He didn't consider the .455 manstopper a bad bullet, and his cadaver testing x-ray photographs aren't sufficient in number to be conclusive. But it does look as if they were more likely than round nosed lead bullets to leave a major bone only slightly fractured or not at all. So what do you get in exchange for this? More destructive effect in soft tissues, where no revolver bullet is likely to rob the target of a few moments' payback time.

Much the same logic applies to the British choice of a 200gr. .38. I think only a few eccentrics thought it was as good as the .455, but the military didn't employ anybody to go firing pistols at people. It didn't fall too far short, in exchange for a much better chance of men who weren't intended as combat infantrymen, and whose time would be taken up with increasing technical training, becoming capable of self-defense in close-up emergencies. I think 200gr. would have a considerable advantage over 150 or so in that situation, and the disadvantages of the manstopper design would be greater than in the larger size.

[Blackwater]

I'm with Char-Gar on this.

And in addition, 44man's post recently about the difference in how blood vessels clot and close up when cut, rather than merely being torn, has given me MUCH to think about. We all know how difficult it is to stop the bleeding when we cut ourselves with a razor while shaving, whereas a scratch (tearing flesh) usually is pretty easy to get to stop bleeding. I've come to think that this really explains the LBT style WFN's effectiveness. I've never used them, but reports from very credible sources all seem to uniformly indicate how truly effective they are on live targets. Look at the bullets, and you'll note a pretty sharp ojive shoulder. Cast hard, and driven to good velocity, these would obviously tend to cut blood vessels, capilaries and organ tissues cleanly, and make them leak blood like a sieve. Apply this principle to self defense loads, particularly for the snubbies, and at least a moderately heavy bullet wt., and you may just find the most effective possible load for .38's, especially the snubbies, which are a bit velocity challenged.

The problem is, this realization is gonna' cost me MONEY! I need a good 158 gr. WFN now! I'm a crotechety ol' phart, and don't WANT to spend the money, BUT .... if it's necessary, it's just flat necessary, and I'm thinking about giving my DIL my pre '72 Colt DS. It's a real beauty, nickeled (which she'll probably like and will likely be an asset since she's unlikely to maintain it really regularly), tight as a tick, and smooth as butter. I love this little gun, but suspect it'd be best made use of in her hands, if I can just make a set of grips to fit her rather dainty hands. It's so intuitive in operation that I think that would be a real asset to her too, over the Kel Tec P-40 I got her some years ago now. It's not rated for +P's, and an LBT type WFN is likely to be the top performer in real life scenarios in this little gun, I think? The full WC driven to full velocity would be the best 2nd choice, cast hard. Those sharp, cutting shoulders of the ojives should significantly reduce the delay between impact and losing enough oil pressure to drop a BG. penetration from the 2" barrel should be adequate at the very least, given a hard alloy, and that ain't no small thing in a .38 snubby! At least a moderately heavy for caliber bullet helps penetration, but there's got to be good velocity to make that sharp shoulder cut more effectively and efficiently, so as to get best effect, particularly for short barrels.

That's my take on the issue, anyway, and thanks to 44man for his insights. The light bulb FINALLY went on about the LBT's and how they work when he posted his theory on the cut vs. tear thing. Darned smart man there! VERY observant, and always looking for what WORKS, and never quits questioning ideas, his own as well as those of others. I learn a lot from men like that, so 44man, THANKS! I may not be all that bright sometimes, but I DO at least listen, and I really WANT to know the truth about what works, and if possible, WHY it works. You've given me a real epiphany, I think.

[Walkingwolf]

I load a Bayou Bullet 138 grain wadcutter over long shot for 900fps, seated to the crimp groove with a heavy roll crimp. The recoil is surprisingly manageable. I have not seen any factory loads that performed as advertised in a snub.

First five rounds are the wadcutters, reloads are 160 gr RNFP at 800fps.

Wadcutters loaded properly perform much like a 9mm. Reduced case capacity results in higher pressure with less powder. Less powder results in less muzzle flash.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think Char-Gar's heavy wadcutter may be the best of both worlds if we forego a hollow point. However, it is also a bit unconventional. Not bad, just not common. It clearly has merit.
My choice of a SWC over a full WC is based more on weight and penetration than a brutal flat frontal area. There's no doubt that a flat front soft bullet does bad things to flesh & bone and I do not doubt that it can penetrate fairly well if driven fast enough.
We may be arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. A 158 +/- grain SWC vs. a 154 gr +/- full WC may be so close in real world performance that it just doesn't matter.

I STILL strongly believe that the 38 Special 158 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow-point driven at +P velocities (158 gr. LSWCHP+P); AKA "FBI load" - is a proven performer in 38 Special. I think a lot of people dismiss that load because it is not: new, cutting edge, exotic or trendy. I so don't care. It has a great track record and until you can trump that proven performance, I'll be dogmatic in my approach.

Getting back to the OP, whenever you say "manstopper" and "handgun" in the same sentence you are probably making a mistake. Handguns SUCK at stopping human beings. The best we can do is to tilt the odds in our favor as much as possible.

[tazman]

I have been frequenting gun shops since 1972. When there, I always listen to the people who either run the shops or are there on a regular basis.
Many of these people have been LEOs or MPs at some point in their live and have stories to tell about what worked and what didn't.
Many carried the 38 special before the semi-autos became popular for police use. Many carried both at various times over the years. Listening to their stories is enlightening.
Not all of them will agree on what is the best load for a particular gun. What they do agree on is what will work well if perhaps not the best choice(they were often limited on what they could load their weapons with).
Nearly all of them agree that any hard cast boolit with a sharp edge to it(either wadcutter or semiwadcutter) causes massive bleeding and tends to drop a man faster due to blood loss and shock than almost anything else available for use in a 38 special revolver. The only other round that found consensus was a full charge 357 magnum loaded with 125 grain hollow points.
Since they needed to live or die by their handgun, they wanted to use what worked. They claimed the accuracy and easily handling characteristics of the wadcutter/semiwadcutter loads enabled them to put the rounds where they needed to and did the job they needed to get done. Usually they were not allowed to use the magnum loads, so they went with the wadcutter/semiwadcutter as the load of choice.
They all agreed that round nosed bullets of any construction were ineffective unless perfectly placed which in a shooting situation can be difficult.
Never having shot anyone myself, I can't contribute any experiences of my own in this matter. I do think the voices of experience I listened to had a lot of knowledge to share.

[shotstring]

Back in the mid 1980's, there was a bullet called the UltraShock which used a reversed hb wadcutter with a steel screw. That bullet was designed for the 357 but it was manipulated every which way to try to get it to work in a 2 inch 38 snub and still penetrate as well as expand. It just wasn't possible. That bullet could be adjusted from zero expansion to expanding to 90 caliber, but with that much expansion it would blow up on a leather coat. It was discovered that without more velocity than a 2" 38 could deliver, you could either have expansion or penetration but you couldn't have both. With a 357, you could have both. The designer of the bullet sold a 38 version but it never worked and the design of that bullet gave MUCH more control over expansion than anyone could hope to achieve with just a reverse hollow based wadcutter.

[salvadore]

I load a cast bullet from a modern bond mold. A full wadcutter with a crimp groove that allows it to be loaded like any non WC bullet. Like the gent above, I have never been involved in a gun fight, but settled on that bullet because it is the ultimate meplat .38. I use it in a Colt Cobra and a model 60.

L

[StrawHat]

Like several others, I gave the reversed HBWC a try. It sure made an impressive mushroom if fired into anything soft, water, wet paper, tomato juice but certainly lacked penetration. I took an old wool overcoat and draped it over a 5 gallon pail of water. % shots and not one hit plastic, all were stopped by the coat. That was enough for me to shelve the experiment. I had a DEWC mold (Lee 150) so cast some of them from a harder alloy, maybe 20/1. Those gave good penetration and hit with authority. Eventually, I got a load of Bullseye that gave me approximately 900 fps, accuracy and penetration were both good enough to stop trying to find a better load.

Kevin

[Der Gebirgsjager]

149791 I know that this is the cast boolit forum! But the original post didn't seem limiting to CBs, and since talking about shooting people is a very serious subject I thought I might throw this into the mix. The photo (to prove they exist) is of the W-W 110 gr. JHP +P+ round which was widely used in the '70s and early '80s. It was very effective, as witnessed by Marshall and Sanow's book "Street Stoppers", page 166, updated street results, shows a total number of shootings using this round as being 31 with 25 one shot stops for a percentage of 81. Only the Cor-Bon was a bit better. with 29/24/83. So what you have here is the ages old discussion of "big, slow, blunt" vs. "light, fast, expansion". No--I don't want to argue about it or start an argument--and I've always felt that both sides have very valid points. Very honestly, if I knew I was going to need it I would take my 1911 .45 ACP every time. But, anyway, the agency I worked for required us to carry this ammo. I carried it in a S&W
Mod. 66 4". We could carry a .357 Mag., but it had to be loaded with this ammo. It is hot, and after firing a 60 rd. qualification course your hand couldn't tell that you hadn't been firing magnums. During my time on the dept. there were 13 shootings with this round and everyone died. When I left, several boxes of this went with me, and I have the utmost confidence in it. I wouldn't carry it in a "J" frame. In some circles this is called the "Treasury Dept. load." My agency wanted to go to the .357 Mag., but the ACLU was horrified. I mean--a MAGNUM? And HOLLOW POINTS? So they compromised and gave their blessing to ".38 Special Controlled Expansion Ammunition." See--all lawyers aren't smart and all cops aren't dumb.
About two years after I departed the agency went to .40 S&W autos, as did most departments, and this round faded from view as did duty revolvers. Changing gears a little, quite a few years ago now I read an article that was entitled "It Ain't Your Granddad's 9mm Anymore" (or a very similar title). It was a truly excellent essay on how changes in bullet design and powder had brought the 9mm from being considered somewhat ineffective to something very desirable as a defense round. Again, this is really proven by Marshall and Sanow's books and compilation of actual shootings. Therefore, although I really like and respect the W-W 110 gr. .38 load, most of the time I actually carry a 9mm loaded with 124 gr. JHP Remington Golden Saber ammo. My choice would seem to be validated by the current wave of change that shows many law enforcement agencies abandoning the 40 S&W and returning to the 9mm. Many of them originally went to the 9mm from the .38/357, but dropped the 9mm in favor of the 40 S&W. Improvements in the 9mm have been so strong that now they are going back again using the newer ammo. But, like I said before, regardless of all the stats and figures I'd take my 1911 (big and slow) as first choice, and have no argument with that theory either. Char-Gar's loads look most impressive.

[dualsport]

When in doubt copy the SEALS. They know what they're doing. Their techniques counter the down side of RNFMJ and they do just fine. Deep penetration, multiple hits, in the right places. Boom, done. I still have a full box of old factory steel jacketed .38 Sp. ammo. No doubt it will do the job if properly applied.

[azrednek]

I know this is a Cast Boolit forum. My non scientific tests of shooting various calibers, home cast and factory fodder into bags of dry wall mud. I'm sold on Winchester Silver-Tips. 38 Special and 45ACP both standard velocity. The bags literally exploded with the Silver-Tips. Based on the shock value I opt to carry the Silver-Tips in 38, 9MM and 45ACP. The down-side, I haven't seen the 38's for sale in several years. I recently found 9MM and 45's.

[shotstring]

Since DG opened up the conversation to all projectiles rather than simply cast or db wadcutters, I have found what I consider the best available round for a 2" snubnose. But it isn't 38 - I fire it from my 9mm s & w 940. The federal HST hollow point in my experience expands from my 2 inch revolver to exactly the same dimensions as it does from any of my full size 9mm autos. Only round I've ever found that does that, and I have been looking for decades. If I'm not going with a cast projectile, this is one I use in every caliber as it is the most consistent round I have ever seen in regard to expansion. Granted, I have had limited media to test it in, but water is nothing if not consistent as a medium, so it does seem to offer some fairly accurate comparisons. I've also used wet newspaper, wet mud, sand, 2 foot blocks of clay as well as wood and it performs in all of them. I don't know if any of you have had any testing that didn't go so well with this round, but I haven't been able to find a flaw in the design of HST ammo except possible lack of penetration under extraordinary circumstances - which I haven't found an example of yet.

[Outpost75]

149791 ....since talking about shooting people is a very serious subject I thought I might throw this into the mix. The photo (to prove they exist) is of the W-W 110 gr. JHP +P+ round which was widely used in the '70s and early '80s. It was very effective, as witnessed by Marshall and Sanow's book "Street Stoppers", page 166, updated street results, shows a total number of shootings using this round as being 31 with 25 one shot stops for a percentage of 81... , anyway, the agency I worked for required us to carry this ammo. I carried it in a S&W Mod. 66 4". We could carry a .357 Mag., but it had to be loaded with this ammo. It is hot, and after firing a 60 rd. qualification course your hand couldn't tell that you hadn't been firing magnums. During my time on the dept. there were 13 shootings with this round and everyone died. When I left, several boxes of this went with me, and I have the utmost confidence in it. I wouldn't carry it in a "J" frame. In some circles this is called the "Treasury Dept...38 Special Controlled Expansion Ammunition...." and this round faded from view as did duty revolvers...I really like and respect the W-W 110 gr. .38 load... But, like I said before, regardless of all the stats and figures I'd take my 1911 (big and slow) as first choice, and have no argument with that theory either. Char-Gar's loads look most impressive.

I am very familiar with the Q4040 U.S. Treasury load and still have a couple boxes in the plain white wrapper. The Winchester 110-grain JHP component bullet which used to be available, with the deep hollow base cavity, six-cut skived jacket with huge glob of exposed lead with generous hollowpoint cavity, was the most accurate .38 Special load I ever tested, and outshot all but the very best lots of match target wadcutter ammunition. The original Q4040 +P+ ammunition was loaded to pressures about 15% higher than industry +P standard, about 22,500 psi, and gave 990+/-30 fps in a 2" S&W Model 15 revolver. Current LE catalog symbol is RA38110HP, as described in the attachment.

149797 149798

149799

[9.3X62AL]

AZ--

My old agency's first autopistol loads were the 9mm and 45 ACP Winchester Silvertips. There weren't a lot of shootings back in those days, but the rounds seemed to do all right.

Caliber wars and bullet banter are entertaining, but their content often addresses the wrong questions. The real priority is to HIT THE ASSAILANT, and to hit him/her well before he/she inflicts injury or death. Bullets into the background won't accomplish that task, no matter how modern in design they might be. The practices to engage in are those that facilitate meaningful shot placement with the system being carried. My method has been to develop a cast bullet load that mimics carry load ballistics closely--load a whole bunch of said duplicators--and do a whole lot of earnest range practice with those loads in my carry guns. With the onset of component shortages for the past several years, most of the shooting I do has been limited to this venue--recreational shooting has largely dried up and disappeared, and the components I do expend are sent in this direction.

[shotstring]

Azrednek, I too am impressed with the ww silver tips - and have been since the early 80's when I first started using them. They are my go-to projectiles for defense for both 357 and 44 mag. Lots of expansion without crazy recoil. But in reloading with silver tips, I found that you can't drive them too hard or the bullet simply blows apart. At anything even approaching max loadings the case separates from the core and the lead core separates badly at the edges as it turns into a flat saucer like projectile. I have found it to lose up to 40% of its weight. The secret seems to be to load them in the 1200 - 1300 fps range as maximum. They start working well at about 1000 fps but don't reach maximum expansion till about 1250 fps. My loadings for 357 use 16.6 to 17.5 gr of 296 which is close to the factory loading. They seem to use 296 with an added flash deterrent. In 44 mag I use 11.9 gr of unique which works fabulously for a defense round my short barreled model 27s. 296 powder doesn't work well in 44 mag because minimum starting loads of 296 powder is still way to high and cause the silver tips to disintegrate on impact. I've used 231 powder as well, but don't like it as well as the unique - recoil is too snappy and pressure seems higher. The snappy recoil at max loadings of 231 also snapped off the leaf of my rear sight on my stainless El Dorado in 44 mag, which I use when developing max loads. Unique, while not the "push" recoil of 296 powder is still closer too it than the jarring recoil of ww 231 powder in my opinion.

[tazman]

I picked up a Modern Bond mold similar to Char Gar's except lighter a couple of weeks ago. Mine drops at 150 grains.
I loaded a few with 3.5 of Bullseye and took them to the range today. Using my 3" model 60 Smith they held the X ring 18 of 20 shots at 30 feet on a man sized silhouette target.
Sorry, there was no chronograph available and I didn't save the target.
This is the best shooting round in that revolver so far. It looks like the first 5 will be the Modern Bond full meplat boolit. The speedloader refills have yet to be determined.
Quite possibly an RF style or a 358477.

[azrednek]

9.3X62AL I know from my X-wife being a cop with three different agencies before and about the era of mandatory change to auto loaders. The Silver-Tip was favored by many different municipal agencies. The state or DPS as the likelihood of penetrating a car door or windshield had other preferences. Two Smokeys I knew in that era carried 357 158gr JSN.

I thought in keeping up with times. Winchester made the 40 cal Silver-Tip bullets available to hand loaders but I never did see it in any other caliber. It now appears the 40 cal slugs are no longer available.

[HiVelocity]

149822

These drop at ~150gr. I plan to load these for my .357 Marlin at 1500 or so. I think they would make a good manstopper also.

Just food for thought.

HV

[35remington]

After fairly extensive testing including modeling velocity variations I will throw in with a deeply seated WC being better than a solid SWC for serious use.

The problem with the SWC in a snubby is the powder forward orientation likely occurring after the draw.

[azrednek]

Shotstring, I've never found anything other than 40 cal Silver-Tip projectiles available to hand loaders. Do you know where I might find them, that is if they are still available??

Sorry didn't mean to go off track with the Silver-Tips so I started another thread here.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?288564-Winchester-Silver-Tips&p=3387980#post3387980

[shotstring]

I bought a thousand each of both the 38 cal and the 44 cal silver tip projectiles around 8 years ago or so, before they became ridiculously expensive and hard to find. Midway charges around 37 dollars for a hundred of the 38 caliber slugs when they are available. They are showing them as temporarily unavailable right now. My understanding is that Winchester makes runs of certain products just every few years and silver tips are one of those items. They should be back in stock sometime in the future, but at the price they charge now, not sure I would still buy them.

Incidently, Midway is showing loaded rounds of silver tips in stock in 38 super, 9mm, 40 cal and 45 acp right now.

[GabbyM]

I've found Hodgdon Universal Clays delivers modern level velocity from my 4" barrel 38 Special revolvers. Alliant's new BE-86 is advertised to deliver excellent velocities from the 38 also.

Crux of it is. With a non +P rated load I get near 900 fps from my 177 grain grease grove SWC. It's a copy of Lyman #358429. Actual weight is a tad heavier than the Lyman coming in at 177 grains from 2:6 alloy. Lyman's 4th list the standard pressure max load at 912 fps. My bullets extra 7 grains drops that to just under 900 fps so I'd say the velocity in the Lyman book is honest. Now the odd anomaly of a 38 Special is you can't get a lighter bullet to go much faster. I have 150 and 125 grain boolits. However when it comes to delivering the big smack on a steel plate or anything else the 177 gr SWC does the job. One thing the 358429 does is place weight out in the nose to leave plenty of case capacity. Which is why they don't fit in many 357 mag chambers unless seated up on the front drive band. I think the WFN designs are great also but I don't see much reason to purchase even more molds. Then as far as I'm concerned a hollow point only sacrifices penetration. Plain fact is with human male target you have zero penetration in these rounds to give up. Same true with a 9mm or 45 ACP. I'll plea a waiver on the 40 short as I've never popped a cap on a single round.
I believe in a good sized meplat and combination of velocity and weight for caliber. After you have that with accuracy you are pretty much there. Then you can polish your bullets or paint them pink. But they will not hit any harder.

Those inexpensive Hogue finger grove rubber grips fit my hand well allowing me to make hits on target far better than I've been able to with any auto gun. My 60 year old eyes can still focus the U grove top strap sight on a Model 10 S&W so it's my favorite revolver. Two out of six milk jugs at 100 yards is hard to take issue with when you are a modest level hand gun shooter as I am. Then I can rapid for double action a 8" steel swinger at fifty feet. Thus I've become very fond of my old surplus police revolvers. Simply put. My paper plates end up with more holes than when I shoot 15 shot magazine capacity 9mm. Other bullet I like very much is the Magma 150gr TC plain flat base. It's the most accurate I think. Although I have good and bad days so comparison testing is difficult. The flat nose is the same diameter as the SWC bullet. Thus small critters wouldn't know the difference in energy delivered. My 150 grain and 177 grain both shoot point of aim on fixed sight S&W's. Shot sequence on 350 pound man is this. Bring up revolver on your left of target leg. Then Hip gut,,,, chest chest ,,,,, brain. That's five shots. Leaving you with one to check for an accomplice. Trick is to use your revolver before they kill you with a number two pencil.

[Char-Gar]

149822

These drop at ~150gr. I plan to load these for my .357 Marlin at 1500 or so. I think they would make a good manstopper also.

Just food for thought.

HV

If all depends on the alloy. Big hole HPs like this will shatter like glass if the alloy is to hard.

[Blackwater]

Gabby hits on something that I've noticed, with that lighter bullets not giving very much increase in velocity in .38's. This tells me that a std. vel. .38 needs a relatively heavy bullet for maximum performance. I'm looking at a 2" Colt pre-'72 DS that I may wind up giving my daughter in law once I carve out a set of grips for it that'll fit her rather dainty hands. I can't use +P's in it because of the metal in it, so I've got to find the best load for it at std. vels. It's a real jewel of a gun, and she's not into shooting, so I think a revolver may be a little better for her than the Kel Tec .40 I gave her some years back.

I'm still thinking about getting an LBT type WFN mold in @ 160 gr. for it. That should be enough, will reduce recoil a bit from a heavier slug, and as 44man's theory/explanation goes, that fairly sharp cutting edge on the front of the ojives should cut blood vessels and organs cleanly, and keep blood from clotting as quickly, which should result in incapacitation as quickly as is possible with a std. vel. .38.

All I have to do then is get her to practice enough so that she can PLACE those 6 rds.!

[35remington]

Blackwater, I have a lot of .38 revolvers that by construction must use standard pressure .38's and have some time ago concluded that the wadcutter is best to optimize snubby performance. This is after trying all manner of powders and especially given what happens to more shallowly seated SWC's and WFN's in terms of performance when the gun is drawn from a holster.

Velocity variation is the SWC's and WFN's undoing. Not for field use where the gun can be oriented before the shot, but rather for personal defensive practices where the gun may have to be drawn and shot immediately. If you don't like handloads for that a Buffalo Bore standard pressure wadcutter would be preferable to anything that can be assembled in WFN or SWC format. More meplat than either, and less ballistic downside in terms of serious velocity robbing variation from a gun drawn from concealment. Here the snubbies are especially bad.

[Petrol & Powder]

As for standard pressure SD loads for the 38 Special, If you can find them, Federal made a non +P version of the Nyclad. I have a box or two but unfortunately they are 125gr bullets.
It's all too easy to get lost in the tall weeds when discussing terminal performance of handgun projectiles and 9.3 x 62AL did a good job of pulling this discussion back onto the rails.
35remington, I don't wish to offend you but the orientation of the powder in the casing is of so little consequence in a self-defense situation that it doesn't warrant consideration in my world.
As for standard pressure 38 Special vs. +P; I don't advocate abusing guns but I don't worry too much about limited use +P loads in modern guns. That doesn't mean I will go out and shoot 10,000 rounds of +P cartridges in an airweight J-frame but it does mean that I carry +P loads in an airweight J-weight that isn't rated for +P loads and I don't worry about it. The gun will take it in small doses and has for well over 20 years. The difference between standard pressure 38 Spl. and +P is only 3K psi. I wouldn't be stupid about it but a good quality 38 Special revolver will take a few +P rounds now and then.
Now, that 110 gr +P+ load is something different all together. I would never use that load in anything other than a steel framed gun that was rated for +P loads and even then, only sparingly. I'm not a fan of light for caliber bullets driven at high velocities but that load does approach .357 mag performance in a 38 Special chambering. That load allowed LE agencies to tell the bed-wetting liberals that they were not using the evil magnum cartridges but it's about as close to magnum performance as you can get without that label.

I still feel that the 38 Special performs best with 155-160 projectiles and going heavier or lighter does that fine cartridge a disservice. If you can push a 38 special 160 grain soft lead bullet to around 800-900 fps and put it where it can do its job like 9.3x62AL said, you will be well served by that cartridge. A flat nose or a hollow point beats a round nose bullet everyday but the difference between a flat nose and a hollow point at those velocities probably isn't that great.



A big, flat nosed WC like Char-gar's clearly takes advantage of what a 38 Special has to offer. A LSWCHP driven to +P velocities is probably in the same league and slightly more speedloader friendly.

[35remington]

It most certainly warrants consideration in mine. Difference is I know what happens and I invite you to discover the same. The LSWCHP +P has been variously reported to expand or not expand when fired from short barrels and velocity is often 860 fps with powder rearward and drops to 750 fps with powder forward which explains why results vary. Handloads are similar.

The same happens with solid bullet SWC, but not with WC due to much less powder movement. If solid bullets are considered for defensive use the full charge WC gets the advantage over the SWC due to more meplat, and more consistency. The power level does not drop as low in the instance when the powder is forward. At this level penetration is around 23 inches of gelatin with the WC which exceeds any requirement in SD use including really really big people.

Since powder forward is the most likely occurrence in a SD situation it's best to model its effect and make one's choice based on what very likely will happen.

I consider myself informed rather than offended. What you said doesn't bother me because I've given the topic very due diligence and don't make these statements lightly. When the differences in orientation result in a 20 percent power loss that's a loss I'd rather not have in a SD situation........if I could avoid it.

So I will.

[c1skout]

I've been carrying standard pressure 158gn SJHP in my snubby, and my spare ammo is the Lyman 358495 over a moderate bullseye load. That old 160gn wadcutter is my favorite boolit so far from my 38's.

[Petrol & Powder]

35remington, thank you for your thoughtful response.

If I am firing a handgun at another human being because I have decided that deadly force is the only option left to me in the face of an imminent threat of death or serious injury.......I'm pretty sure I'm not going to care if my bullet is travelling at 750 fps or 753.09312 fps.
At that very small point in time I really want the gun to go "bang" and I want the bullet to strike somewhere close to where I am pointing the gun. The odds are that I will be very close to my adversary at that critical point in time.
If the bullet expands - GREAT.
If the bullet doesn't expand - but stops the threat - GREAT.
If the bullet severs his spinal cord, puts a big hole in his aorta or his left ventricle and then travels into the next county - GREAT.

Expansion would be ideal but whether the powder is forward or rearward is just not going to be in my mind at that point and; more importantly, the position of the powder isn't actually important unless that is the ONLY reason the threat continues.
Out of all of the things that can go wrong at that point in time that directly affect my odds of survival, the position of the powder in the casing and the possibility of over penetration are somewhere on the back of page 47 of things that can screw up my life.

NOW, that being said; it is wise to attempt to stack the odds in your favor.
In a perfect world the bullet would always expand, always penetrate deep enough and never penetrate too far. I'll take what I can get but I don't fault you for wanting an ideal outcome despite the fact that the outcome is always far from ideal.

[GabbyM]

35remington: What powder are you using that is so position sensitive. Sounds like HP-38/WW231.
Which in my humble opinion should never see the inside of a 38 case. But seams to be so popular. It works good for me in a 45 acp so that's where mine has bee getting disposed of.

[Outpost75]

When I worked in the firearms industry, I routinely fired pressure, velocity and accuracy tests during ammunition production. At that time piezoelectric pressure measurement was still under development and experimental, so we used the radial copper system. It was standard procedure to fire "base tap" with the powder towards the primer, and "nose tap" in which the powder was oriented forward, and to pool those samples of ten-shots each to compare with 20 rounds fired using the "SAAMI roll" in which the cartridge would be given a full 270 degree slow turn starting with the bullet nose at 12:00, then rotating clockwise until horizontal at 3:00 before inserting into the pressure barrel.

If the pooled base tap and nose tap samples exceed allowed specifications for ballistic uniformity required for the cartridge by the contract, that propellant lot would not be considered acceptable for those conditions of loading.

Military contracts often required these tests be repeated at elevated and suppressed temperatures to simulate desert, arctic or high altitude aircraft applications.

231 is one of those powders, which in my experience, experiences more lot-to-lot variation than others, which I find less suitable for use standard pressure loads in .38 Special, than others such as Bullseye, SR7625 or WST. It works fine in .38 Special +P loads and in the .45 ACP with 200-grain or heavier bullets.

But, if you are passionate on the .45 ACP, and are ever fortunate enough to find an 8 lb. caddy of WST, you will never, ever buy 231 again!

[Groo]

Groo here
For those with salt in there hair will remember.
The first reason for the hollowpoint pistol bullet was to stop bullet bounce and reduce penetration,
increasing effectiveness was secondary.[supervel ammo]
The Brits [ of the Empire time] used the pistol as a backup to the edged weapon [aka sword]
and much like SD use today.[keep them off you till you can stick em]
The bullet was heavy, usually long and SLOW [600fps or so], the Brits said
that if the bullet went too fast ,the target did not have time to react.
So the biggest mistake with this type of load is to speed it up.
HP bullets require speed to open [1000fps or so depending] where as the "man stopper "
loading needs to be slow so the long boolet is not stable and will yaw .

[DoubleAdobe]

I have been frequenting gun shops since 1972. When there, I always listen to the people who either run the shops or are there on a regular basis.
Many of these people have been LEOs or MPs at some point in their live and have stories to tell about what worked and what didn't.
Many carried the 38 special before the semi-autos became popular for police use. Many carried both at various times over the years. Listening to their stories is enlightening.
Not all of them will agree on what is the best load for a particular gun. What they do agree on is what will work well if perhaps not the best choice(they were often limited on what they could load their weapons with).
Nearly all of them agree that any hard cast boolit with a sharp edge to it(either wadcutter or semiwadcutter) causes massive bleeding and tends to drop a man faster due to blood loss and shock than almost anything else available for use in a 38 special revolver. The only other round that found consensus was a full charge 357 magnum loaded with 125 grain hollow points.
Since they needed to live or die by their handgun, they wanted to use what worked. They claimed the accuracy and easily handling characteristics of the wadcutter/semiwadcutter loads enabled them to put the rounds where they needed to and did the job they needed to get done. Usually they were not allowed to use the magnum loads, so they went with the wadcutter/semiwadcutter as the load of choice.
They all agreed that round nosed bullets of any construction were ineffective unless perfectly placed which in a shooting situation can be difficult.
Never having shot anyone myself, I can't contribute any experiences of my own in this matter. I do think the voices of experience I listened to had a lot of knowledge to share.
You talk and have talked to the same breed of cat I have. Those guys in my locale are getting increasingly scarce. But I 'member, ha.

[DoubleAdobe]

35remington, thank you for your thoughtful response.

If I am firing a handgun at another human being because I have decided that deadly force is the only option left to me in the face of an imminent threat of death or serious injury.......I'm pretty sure I'm not going to care if my bullet is travelling at 750 fps or 753.09312 fps.
At that very small point in time I really want the gun to go "bang" and I want the bullet to strike somewhere close to where I am pointing the gun. The odds are that I will be very close to my adversary at that critical point in time.
If the bullet expands - GREAT.
If the bullet doesn't expand - but stops the threat - GREAT.
If the bullet severs his spinal cord, puts a big hole in his aorta or his left ventricle and then travels into the next county - GREAT.

Expansion would be ideal but whether the powder is forward or rearward is just not going to be in my mind at that point and; more importantly, the position of the powder isn't actually important unless that is the ONLY reason the threat continues.
Out of all of the things that can go wrong at that point in time that directly affect my odds of survival, the position of the powder in the casing and the possibility of over penetration are somewhere on the back of page 47 of things that can screw up my life.

NOW, that being said; it is wise to attempt to stack the odds in your favor.
In a perfect world the bullet would always expand, always penetrate deep enough and never penetrate too far. I'll take what I can get but I don't fault you for wanting an ideal outcome despite the fact that the outcome is always far from ideal.
As LL likes to say, Shazam!

[Bagdadjoe]

I have some Mihec 180's with the large hp poured from my 30/1 mix I used for my Gibbs ML loaded to the max load in my manual in my Sp101. Accurate load at 25yds. No man has come forward to test it's "man-stopping" properties. ;-)

[9.3X62AL]

No man has come forward to test it's "man-stopping" properties. ;-)

It is this general reluctance to become test media that we utilize to our advantage by carrying sideiron. An armed society is a polite society--Heinlein nailed it.

[Outpost75]

Where is Jello Man when we really need him?

[35remington]

Petrol and Powder, you didn't read my response very closely?

The difference in velocity with powder orientation isn't between "750 fps or 753.09312" fps. It's more like the difference between 860 and 750 fps when a SWC is used. For that reason my findings have more significance than your apparent(?) mischaracterization of my results. If you want to address my point, you might want to take issue with what I actually printed, not what you wish to substitute.

If I can reduce said variation with bullet selection, and I can, I will.

[Walkingwolf]

Petrol and Powder, you didn't read my response very closely?

The difference in velocity with powder orientation isn't between "750 fps or 753.09312" fps. It's more like the difference between 860 and 750 fps when a SWC is used. For that reason my findings have more significance than your apparent(?) mischaracterization of my results. If you want to address my point, you might want to take issue with what I actually printed, not what you wish to substitute.

If I can reduce said variation with bullet selection, and I can, I will.

I got what you were saying, my WC are extremely consistent. There is a reason for that, plus with less powder for high enough pressure the muzzle blast and barrel rise are minimized. The only draw backs is reloads under stress. For reloads I do go with SWC.

[35remington]

No argument on the reloads.....but the ones in the gun would be WC's if I was limited to a solid bullet.

[Petrol & Powder]

Petrol and Powder, you didn't read my response very closely?

The difference in velocity with powder orientation isn't between "750 fps or 753.09312" fps. It's more like the difference between 860 and 750 fps when a SWC is used. For that reason my findings have more significance than your apparent(?) mischaracterization of my results. If you want to address my point, you might want to take issue with what I actually printed, not what you wish to substitute.

If I can reduce said variation with bullet selection, and I can, I will.

Wow, you totally missed that one. The arbitrary values I substituted, complete with five places to the right of the decimal and less than 4 fps apart, where so far from the numbers you posted and so obviously comical that I thought you would catch the sarcasm. Apparently others did but I'll take the blame for failing to post those numbers in the correctly colored sarcasm font.

My point was the variation in velocity due to the position of the powder in the casing is probably not going to weigh heavily on my mind at that point in time. I acknowledge that it is wise to attempt to place the odds as much in your favor as possible. It has long been known that powder position can affect accuracy when we're trying to make little tiny groups in paper with relatively light loads of powder in relatively large cases. I'm skeptical that mere powder position would account for a 110 fps variation if the charge weights were actually similar and appropriately large enough for a self defense cartridge.

[35remington]

I've spent considerable time proving that such variations are common in short barrelled 38's using SWC's. By all means find out for yourself and you won't have to disbelieve it.

[Blackwater]

On the reloads, the fastest are with TC nosed bullets and Safariland speedloaders for DA guns. The Safariland speedloaders hold the ctgs. MUCH more securely and rigidly than the HKS types, and this aids getting the gun reloades ASAP, and the difference can be pretty significant. Also, if you learn to pick them out of the pouch with thumb and middle finger on opposing sides, between two rounds, and also to hold the cylinder with the left hand with the thumb on one of the grooves on the cylinder, you can pretty quickly learn to line them up enough, with TC nosed bullets, that reloads are very much more quick than with any other speedloader or technique. Learn this, and reloads are darned quick, and probably as fast as one with mags in an autoloader. Those Safariland actually give the replacement rounds a little "shove" as one presses the center pin on the rod of the cylinder, seating them more fully, reliably, and more quickly. With practice, it's amazing how fast reloads can be for a revolver, but ONLY (at least as far as I've seen) with the Safariland speedloaders and TC bullets. Full WC's and SWC's tend to hang up on the shoulder of the bullets, and slow things down.

This is why I'm planning to get the NOE 160 gr. WFN bullet for my Colt DS. Same load for carry and reloads, and quick restuffing of the cylinders. That's the best .38 snubbies have to offer, but as always, placement is the key, even with the best of bullets and guns. That's what I've settled on, anyway.

[robertbank]

Here are teo examples from my experience over a F! Chrony shot the same day using the Lyman 358477 bullet in my Uberti El Patron with a 5.5 inch barrel:

Revolver held down then slowly raised and fired: 877 fps using 5.4 gr of Unique
Revolver held up then slowly lowered and fired : 987 fps using 5.4 gr of Unique

Revolver held down then slowly raised and fired: 762 fps using 3.5 gr of Bullseye
Revolver held up then slowly lowered and fired : 813 fps using 3.5 gr of Bullseye

The 477 bullet is a lswc.

Bob

[tazman]

Hodgdon Titegroup is supposed to be not position sensitive. Loading data shows it to be suitable for this type load in both SWC and full wadcutter. Has anyone tested this powder?

[robertbank]

tazman the only load I have tried to date was 3 gr of Titegroup under my 200 gr RN from Lyman. Avg of 10 shots had the bullets running at 700 fps. Standard Deviation was only 5 fps. I did not do any position testing. If our weather clears up next week I will run a batch off for testing.

Bob

[Blackwater]

35, you bring up a long standing issue with the .38. Being a black powder ctg. originally, it's very long and has a lot of volume for its bore size, and thus, lots of powder room. With a 2" barrel, it's hard to get it to perform in a stellar manner, and the velocity variations you cite ARE at least an issue. I tend to use bulky powders like Unique when loading the .38, and have never found as high a variation as was cited above, but don't doubt at all that it exists. I geneally use WSP primers, which tend to be a tad hotter than some of the other std. primers, and just handle my gun like I would in a SD situation, and velocities are pretty stable when I do that. Just made sense to me to test them that way. When one draws a gun and "throws" it forward so as to aim, that throws the powder forward, away from the primer. So, that's the way I practice and chrono my loads, and they've never been very bad in variation when I do it that way. Consistency is always desirable, but within reasonable parameters, I just don't worry a lot about it, and mainly focus on shot placement, which matters far more than all the other factors put together.

Still, you make a good point.

And while we're on the subject, I once loaded 7.6 gr. Blue Dot behind some 158 gr. LSWCHP's - a load I read in a magazine. It was really a stout load, and that much isn't recommended in any of the manuals any more. This was back a number of years ago, and it was a SD load for an ankle gun, a M-60 S&W. I never fired many in it, but it was +P rated, and from the recoil alone, it was obviously something not quite within normal .38 specs. I used it sparingly and carried it due to having to visit a particularly potentially dangerous parolee. I figured if the gun didn't last long, but I did, that was OK by me, and it was the guys who hung around this particular drug dealer that were the danger, not him. They'd likely have been drugged up, and possibly immune from "shock." It was a comfort then, but now, I mainly just try to concentrate on placement. A CNS hit still does good work, especially up close where one really HAS to stop things very quickly.

All kinds of ways of looking at this issue, and things to consider. This is just my way, FWIW?

[Char-Gar]

I am quite certain that powder position will have an effect on velocity with some powders. As far as I am concerned, does that make a real world difference in the handgunner being able to hit what they are shooting at?

That does not appear to be an issue to me. I use primarily Bulleye and have always handled my handguns in a consistent manner. My handguns are on the bench in front of me, in a holster at my side, or in my hand pointing at the ground. I always bring them up to a firing position and have never taken time to position the powder.

Bottom line is that for my handgun shooting, this is not a real world issue, but theory to be argued on boards like this. I have never been much of a theory person.

[Outpost75]

Here are teo examples from my experience over a F! Chrony shot the same day using the Lyman 358477 bullet in my Uberti El Patron with a 5.5 inch barrel:

Revolver held down then slowly raised and fired: 877 fps using 5.4 gr of Unique
Revolver held up then slowly lowered and fired : 987 fps using 5.4 gr of Unique

Revolver held down then slowly raised and fired: 762 fps using 3.5 gr of Bullseye
Revolver held up then slowly lowered and fired : 813 fps using 3.5 gr of Bullseye The 477 bullet is a lswc. Bob

Just curious, were these tests in .357 brass or .38 Special brass? And what primers were you using?

[robertbank]

Just curious, were these tests in .357 brass or .38 Special brass? And what primers were you using?

Tests were with 38spl brass. Winchester SPP. Temperature was 5C. F1 Chrony at 10 feet from chronograph. I agree with Char-Char the affect has little real value in the real world.

Take Care

Bob

[cainttype]

The discussion about powder position sensitivity comparing WCs to SWCs at closely similar projectile weights quickly becomes a moot point when the heavier slugs are considered.
It is obvious in the included photo that the 195 grain soft lead hollow-point seats to the same depth as when using the crimp groove of the Saeco DEWC. The powder's combustion chamber is practically identical, and the shot-to-shot consistency comparisons between the two are a non-issue.
I use Unique in this application so the extra bullet weight will only help to promote consistant powder burn, and repeatable results.

I have tested these heavy soft lead HPs side-by-side with all manner of factory offerings and handloads. Deep penetration with reliable expansion has been the rule, and I've not yet seen anything else that I'd prefer in a 2" snub-nosed 38 Special. YMMV

[9.3X62AL]

The 38 Special has been doing its work for about 110 years now. Calibers survive for a century+ because they do a lot of things very well. The 38 is accurate in the extreme, tractable for most shooters, and has been available in a wide variety of platforms and configurations. It is no wonder cartridge in terms of stopping ability, and we are learning over time that handguns generally make lackluster tools for the purpose. Our adversaries must receive well-placed hits for the sideiron to be the least bit effective, and when a population's miss rate exceeds 90% (LEO gunfight stats) maybe caliber and load aren't the right questions to be pondering?

[dualsport]

On the reloads, the fastest are with TC nosed bullets and Safariland speedloaders for DA guns. The Safariland speedloaders hold the ctgs. MUCH more securely and rigidly than the HKS types, and this aids getting the gun reloades ASAP, and the difference can be pretty significant. Also, if you learn to pick them out of the pouch with thumb and middle finger on opposing sides, between two rounds, and also to hold the cylinder with the left hand with the thumb on one of the grooves on the cylinder, you can pretty quickly learn to line them up enough, with TC nosed bullets, that reloads are very much more quick than with any other speedloader or technique. Learn this, and reloads are darned quick, and probably as fast as one with mags in an autoloader. Those Safariland actually give the replacement rounds a little "shove" as one presses the center pin on the rod of the cylinder, seating them more fully, reliably, and more quickly. With practice, it's amazing how fast reloads can be for a revolver, but ONLY (at least as far as I've seen) with the Safariland speedloaders and TC bullets. Full WC's and SWC's tend to hang up on the shoulder of the bullets, and slow things down.

This is why I'm planning to get the NOE 160 gr. WFN bullet for my Colt DS. Same load for carry and reloads, and quick restuffing of the cylinders. That's the best .38 snubbies have to offer, but as always, placement is the key, even with the best of bullets and guns. That's what I've settled on, anyway.

This sounds like solid thinking to me. I'm going to check it out. Once in a while my carry gun is a S&W M60 .357 5 shot. Usually I carry it when out in the boonies. Fast reloads could be an issue. Maybe load it with something with a bigger meplat, then the TC's in a speed loader. Never tried the Safariland, now I will. What does JM use? He's fast.

[Love Life]

The 38 Special has been doing its work for about 110 years now. Calibers survive for a century+ because they do a lot of things very well. The 38 is accurate in the extreme, tractable for most shooters, and has been available in a wide variety of platforms and configurations. It is no wonder cartridge in terms of stopping ability, and we are learning over time that handguns generally make lackluster tools for the purpose. Our adversaries must receive well-placed hits for the sideiron to be the least bit effective, and when a population's miss rate exceeds 90% (LEO gunfight stats) maybe caliber and load aren't the right questions to be pondering?

Holes kill stuff. Start poking holes in somebody and they will tend to knock off whatever activities caused them to get holes poked in them. In the case of the zombie drug addict person...shoot them a bunch.

Your point on actually hitting the target is probably the most important nugget in this thread. Seen any trout on bicycles lately?

[Geezer in NH]

For all the guys talking about a HBWC loaded backwards. How do you all get accuracy at 25yards? I tried the HBWC loaded backwards but got very poor accuracy and poor penetration. About the only thing they did do was expand, but then again a soft lead wadcutter loaded properly gave good expansion and way better penetration.At 25 yards I wait for backup or get the shotgun or rifle!! My tests of accuracy and penetration showed to ME load them backwards.

Of course that was at a serious range of about 10 yards or less. For further range see the first paragraph.

[9.3X62AL]

Seen any trout on bicycles lately?

Ha ha! Not lately, that medication change a few months back might account for that. And I've had a saltwater focus for the last year or so.

[35remington]

Chargar is precisely right....whether powder be forward or rearward has zero to do with hitting anything. In performing this testing the point of aim was an 8 inch plate at 50 yards, with my forearms resting on sandbags off a bench with the pistol and the supporting hands touching nothing to give a semblance of the movement the pistol experiences when shot from standing unsupported. Whacking the plate regularly occurred either way in a 4 inch C series Military and Police. I am not good enough with the vestigal sights on most snubbies to flatter myself that the same 50 yard plate is duck soup, but much shooting at closer ranges reveals nothing of concern as to point of impact variation.

If the most important concern is to hit, and it is, truly powder position does not matter.

However, since the second part of the equation once the hit occurs is the power behind the bullet, I investigated the powder position thing. Blackwater is quite right.....being a blackpowder round don't help matters. But then the "ideal" ballistic consistency was probably to be found in the 9mm Federal and we all know how that one turned out. So we optimize the 38 Special. I do not have an affinity for full moon clipped 9mm snubby revolvers as I've never thought adding a loose piece of metal to the headspacing equation increases the odds that the five rounds in the snubby are going to go bang.

What prompted all this, as mentioned, is the number of "standard pressure only" 38's I have. Both due to metallurgy and weight. A 14-15 ounce 638 is not all that pleasant to shoot with some Plus P loads even if it is rated for it.

Tazman, I'll get to the Titegroup in a minute.

I will note that the snubbies will have, for whatever reason, about 20-30 fps higher spread from powder forward/powder rearward than a 4 inch will with identical loads.

All charges carefully weighed.

4.7 grains Unique is considered the top end of the standard pressure range with a 158 SWC, in this case the Lee 158TLSWC.

In a four inch M and P, powder rearward (PR) 923, 919, 903
powder forward (PF) 840, 868, 845

In a snubbie (638) PR 820 807 803
PF 707 717 705

4.9 Herco does pretty much the same thing as 4.7 Unique with the same bullet.

4 inch PR 892 925 920
PF 830 854 848

Snubbie: PR 818 801 811
PF 723 717 731

Power Pistol is feted as being "the thing" when loading 38 Special for performance, that is, if blast and flash does not bother you, and performance it gets is quite good, at least when the powder is near the primer in a snubbie.

Here I used the Lee 148 TLWC seated out to mimic the seating depth of the Lee 158 SWC. The idea was to determine if "seating out" would obtain an advantage with the larger powder charges allowed the more shallowly seated bullet. In terms of ballistic consistency, it is going backward. When the powder is forward, it is inferior to a 148 WC seated normally with a "lower" performance loading.

5.4 grains is considered the top end of the standard pressure range. I goofed and (mis)remembered the number and actually loaded 5.5 grains but the point is still valid:

4 inch: PR 976 961 957 (impressive indeed for pretty much "standard" pressure)
PF 911 903 901

That didn't seem too bad, and I was hoping the snubby would show similar "low" spreads, as 70 odd fps in a 38 isn't too bad in a "higher performance" loading. Instead, this happened:

Snubbie: PR 853 859 875
PF 745 731 773

Ack. Fell on its face a little. Reprising the test with a 158 SWC did not improve things. Average speed 862 fps powder rearward, 750 fps powder forward. 244 ft/lbs. versus 185. A 24 percent drop with the 148 grain bullet. I don't care for that.

By contrast, compare the above with the Lyman 358495, a 148ish grain WC when seated deeply to its crimp groove with 3.5 Titegroup. While this is the top end of the standard pressure range, Titegroup is not considered "high performance" by any means in terms of velocity. Same snubbie:

PR 825 818 817
PF 801 803 801

Note that the "low" velocity performance with the powder forward exceeds that of Power Pistol load by over 50 fps, using a powder supposedly less in performance potential. The more deeply seated bullet performs similarly no matter how the gun is oriented. Since the gun is most likely to be fired with the powder forward, no Herco, Unique or Power Pistol for me with a conventionally seated bullet.

Bullseye performs almost identically to Titegroup with perhaps 10 fps lower velocities with the same charges. In my guns, at least.

The whole point may be mooted if you're using factory loads, but the choice there might be between Plus P 158 SWC and a Buffalo Bore Hard Cast 148 WC seated conventionally.....deeply, in other words. Both get 850 fps from short barrels, but the Buffalo Bore load gets that 850 fps pretty much no matter how the powder moves in the case. The other SWC load does not and 100 plus fps spread are common.

Tazman, Titegroup does pretty darn well with the 158 SWC. In this case I used the 358432, a "semiwadcutter wadcutter" or class III type that seats out of the case like a SWC. Same 3.5 grain charge.

4 inch: PR 839 847 838
PF 828 822 818

Not bad at all for a 38. Velocities are about 100 fps slower from the snubbie, extreme spreads a little higher but much better than the Unique/Herco/PP tribe. Problem is that even at max charges per Hodgdon of 3.7-3.8 grains at standard pressure performance does not exceed the PP load, but consistency is better. That is, with powder forward speeds are about the same, but Titegroup does not come within 50 fps of the PP load with powder rearward.

If there is one powder to absolutely, positively avoid in the 38 in terms of ballistic consistency, it is Hodgdon Universal. I theorize the formulation is no more sensitive than, say, Herco, but its fine granulation means it does not take up much room in the case and the powder shifts around more. Velocity variation may exceed 140 fps with some SWC loads. You couldn't run fast enough to give me that powder to load in the 38 if I couldn't orient that powder before the shot.

Having some go out the barrel at 740 fps and others at 880 does not give me what I am looking for.

Even Titegroup will fall on its face a little when the bullet is noticeably shallowly seated, like a Lee 105 SWC or the Lyman 140 RN used as a 38 Special/heavy 9mm bullet. Here 3.2/Titegroup does this with the 140 from the 4 inch:

PR 747 744 751
PF 669 684 677

Things are starting to spread out a little. The shallow seating depth also reduces the power somewhat over an identical charge with a 148 WC. The operative factor is seating depth. When the Ranch Dog 190 FN is used and seated to maximum length the cylinder will accept, which results in somewhat shallower seating than the common 158 SWC, extreme spreads are still high despite the comparatively great weight even when Titegroup is used.

I have a number of other powders I've shot I could use as examples but these serve to make the point.

Ed Harris isn't just whistling Dixie when he proselytizes for the 148 full charge wadcutter. It has advantages in the snubby besides just the flat point and overall suitability in terms of power for the pocket gun. Ballistic consistency is excellent and, as I see it, it's superior to the 158 SWC at the same pressures for that reason. You get the same thing whether the gun is up, down, or sideways.

Blackwater's point about the WFN being a breeze to reload is well taken, though. I would have that as the backup rounds with the wadcutters in the gun. Wadcutters are a turd to load. Getting the gun reloaded fast takes precedence over ballistic consistency or a little wider flat point.

Yeah, this all may be theoretical, but as I pointed out if factory loads are your thing Buffalo Bore standard pressure WC is the way I'd go with a solid bullet in preference to any other solid reposing in the gun at the time of need.

[robertbank]

Fellows at distances normally within the range of mortals shooting a snubby would it be fair to say worrying about a reload is not going to be your first concern if in a gun fight at those distances. It maybe your last but I doubt your first. I think Al and Charles summed it up nicely.

Take Care

Bob
ps My concerns are more of the four legged variety and reloads will never be an issue that means much where I live.

[35remington]

Quite true, but if I have ammo to reload, it better be the easy reloading variety or nothing else. Some do carry reloads for the EDC piece as a regular thing. A speed strip is not a big imposition.

[robertbank]

Agreed.

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

If I'm carrying a firearm CCW fashion, a refill or 2 come along with it. I use HKS speedloaders with the 686.......not the most tacticool, but they are simple--reliable--largely indestructible--and practically dirt/grit-proof.

[tazman]

35remington---
Thanks for testing the Titegroup powder and all the others. While it did somewhat better than the other powders it still isn't perfect.
It is nice to have some idea what to expect with my loads. I have that same 358432 mold and use either Bullseye or Titegroup under it for most uses. That boolit shoots excellent groups from all my 38/357 revolvers and has become my load of choice for close range social occasions. I will back it up with something speedloader friendly but will start with the wadcutters.

[35remington]

I know that 358432 loaded with about 3.7/3.8 Titegroup would have similar velocity to the 148's seated more deeply with 3.5 grains and has 12 grains more bullet. Mine shot well with Bullseye and Titegroup too. Those load much better than the Lee TLWC's do. I can actually do them pretty fast.

In the overall sense your choice of bullet is probably better than mine.

[Piedmont]

35remington, I am still not following your logic. Let's say one carried the FBI load (+p swchp) that is known to be somewhat iffy in expansion characteristics from a 2". For sake of argument let's say it will expand at least a bit half of the time (maybe the half where the powder is more to the rear of the case). That would mean half the time it beats your wadcutter and half the time it performs about the same. That seems preferable to the wadcutter which is never going to expand.

As a practical matter what does your lower standard deviation of velocity get you as far as hitting or stopping an assailant?

[Blackwater]

This sounds like solid thinking to me. I'm going to check it out. Once in a while my carry gun is a S&W M60 .357 5 shot. Usually I carry it when out in the boonies. Fast reloads could be an issue. Maybe load it with something with a bigger meplat, then the TC's in a speed loader. Never tried the Safariland, now I will. What does JM use? He's fast.

Dual, I believe he uses the full moon clips - fastest of anything available, as is ol' Jerry himself! Next fastest, at least that I've found is the Safarilands, and they really ARE faster and more reliable than the HKS style, by a significant degree. It tometimes takes a while to learn to load the ctgs. into them, but it's really a lot like learning to ride a bike. Once you do it right a couple of times, you wind up asking yourself why you had any trouble in the first place, and it's really a worthwhile endeavor to learn. The HKS are pretty idiot proof, but I don't like the way they rattle, or the way you often have to jiggle them a bit to get the gun back in action. With the Safarilands, you just align, push and it's loaded. Takes a little practice, so make up 6 dummy rounds with a hole in the side of the brass so they're readily identifiable, and you'll find yourself marveling at how great they work. I've been sold on them for a couple of decades at least. The only criticism of them that I've ever heard is they CAN be hard to learn to load, but all it really takes is a little focus, really, and anyone with normal dexterity can really profit from them, I think. FWIW?

[Love Life]

I've never had issue with HKS speed loaders. Mash em' in the cylinder, twist the knob sharply, pull speed loader off rounds at a slight angle vigorously. Sheeooot, I even use speed strips at times...

[Blackwater]

35, that's some really good testing. Very thorough. Been a long time since I did much of that, and I went to school on your info. Thanks! The .38 is a great caliber, as has already been stated, but like any "racehorse," it has its peculiarities, and you've hit on its biggest one. Just wondering if you've tried any CFE pistol in your guns yet? It's showing some interesting properties if you believe Hodgdon's Annual Manual. I've got a can, but have yet to get my new reloading room set up, but you've got me wanting to wade into the old one and put some loads together and set up my Pact. I also need to make up some grips for my DIL's tiny hands. Not being a shooter, this can be a big deal for her, and can determine how well and "naturally" the gun points for her. Thanks for all the good info.

[tazman]

I have been working with the CFE pistol a bit over the summer when it was available here for a short time. The experiences I had showed the same velocities posted on the Hodgdon data site(within 20fps give or take) for 3 different cartridges. I loaded it in 38 special, 9mm, and 40 S&W. My neighbor used it in 45LC and his experience mirrored mine.
Odd that all 3 cartridges showed the velocities posted on the data site, but it did happen. Usually I get slower fps than the loading data shows.
I just got my hands on a jug of it and will be working with it more in the future.
It is a fairly dense powder and will give the oportunity for powder forward/back differences that the others will. I didn't think to check that when I had it before.

[robertbank]

If you are talking fast reloads you use Safariland or Jetloader speedloaders. We use them playing IDPA and IPSC or USPSA for a reason they are faster and easier to use when under stress. While I consider the topic of reloads to be a bit academic for the suggested purposes here, if you are going to have to do a reload than go with what is the fastest. You may think you are good with the twist types but you will be faster with the Safariland or Jetloaders. Let the Queen breath or in your case the President, and spend $20. and go quick.

Take Care

Bob

[Petrol & Powder]

As for Speedloaders, I'm with Blackwater. I've used HKS, S.L Variant and Safariland and possibly a few others. After MANY years I settled on Sarfariland and never looked back.
The operation of Safariland is indeed a lot like riding a bicycle, once you get it, you get it.

The HKS models are tough, inexpensive and plentiful. However, if you grab a HKS loader by the body and insert the cartridges into the cylinder you have to change the position of your fingers to operate the release knob. If you use the release knob as a handle eventually the mass and inertia of the rounds will cause the loader to release the rounds before they are in the cylinder.

The Safariland models do not require that you reposition your grasp. You simply grab the loader, insert the rounds into the cylinder, push to release, let go of the loader and close the cylinder. I've found the Safariland to be every bit as durable as HKS and very reliable. The drawback of the Safariland models is they tend to cost a bit more and are not as common in retail settings but they are available by internet. The Safariland loaders are very easy to operate under stress.

The S.L.Variant models are the Cadillac's but way too expensive, very hard to find and appear to be a bit fragile. They're also a tad large.

The Safariland loaders come in three different models: Comp I, Comp II and Comp III.
The Comp I is the smallest and generally paired with a J-frame. The operating knob is very small and designed for concealment not ease of filling the loader.
The Comp II's are similar to the HKS in size and are the most prevalent.
The Comp III's are spring loaded and great for games but they are a bit large for normal carry. They do rapidly launch the rounds into the cylinder with some authority.

I generally pair a speedstrip with a 2" J-frame because a speedstrip is flat and therefore easier to conceal than a speedloader that must be as large as the cylinder. If you don't mind the bulk the Comp I works well with a small revolver.
The Comp II is used any setting that a HKS would normally be used in.
The Comp III is too big for most carry situations but they sure are fast & sweet to use !

[35remington]

Piedmont the comparison is to be between solid SWC versus solid WC.

Blackwater, no CFE tried yet. Haven't seen it in 3 years since the panic.

[Outpost75]

Another who favors Speed Strips or Tuff strips for flat concealability. But the fastest reload is a New York reload.

Having a second gun accessible to weak hand is a good thing. I tend to be a wheelgun guy, but never did J-frames.

Give me "Six for Sure."150203150204150205

[Blackwater]

Amen on the shortage! Overpaid for the 1 lb. can. Figured it'd be enough to play with and test in the calibers I shoot. Sure is hard just to GET the stuff we just want to TRY, and when we do, it's a scalper's game, it seems .... when they can GET powders in my area! Kind'a perturbing, but it's the only game in town.

[35remington]

The powder here is actually starting to come back. I've seen 8 pound jugs of Titegroup and bought one of them, and ditto on the W231 and WST. Also recently bought an 8 lb'er of Bullseye. Just haven't seen any CFE for pistol.

[tazman]

I got a jug of WST recently and some bottles of Bullseye and Titegroup. Lots of rifle powders on the shelves but still not much pistol powder.
I'll keep looking and buy some when I find it.

[Outpost75]

Just got off the phone with Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com (http://www.hollowpointmold.com) re my Accurate 36-201D blocks, will treat them like air rifle bullet, massive cavity, stay tuned......

[Messy bear]

35 rem,
thanks for the test results. What primer did you use?

[35remington]

WSP for the most part. Magnum primers don't help with velocity variations with repeat testing.

[Shooter6br]

Read this http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/75f11fe4e235da7c69cabf94daa7dbd9-932.html

[Bagdadjoe]

150838 180g Mihec's 30/1 lead with the Appalachian American ballistic tips.

[jumbeaux]

Outstanding read gentlemen ! Great if we could get this placed as a sticky !

rick

[Outpost75]

Got my Accurate 36-201D mold back from Erik, so it is now a 188-grain HP with LARGE cavity. 8-)

151266

[cainttype]

Interesting, Outpost. I like the heavier HPs, and your's looks like an interesting test subject... I've considered getting a mould to replace swaging the 195-205 grain HPs I'm so fond of. The swaging process is very effective, but very slow... I'd probably shoot a lot more of them if I had a good mould, though.

[Bkeepr]

I agree with Frank46 about the superb article in Handloader magazine (number 298 October 2015). The only shortfall in it is a source for the 140 grain "Man-Stopper" bullets based on the old Webley design or of a mold for the same. The article discusses the problem of getting sufficient velocity out of a short-barrel .38 Special for bullet expansion, and how this particular bullet works extremely well with moderate felt recoil. I'd love to try it myself, if I could find a source. They reference a guy named Bob Hayley in Texas as having produced them.

[GabbyM]

I’d like to go on record with this.
Not all shooters feel the need for a hollow point bullet in a self defense or military 38 Special or 9mm. Since both rounds deliver about the minimum required penetration to shoot though or near through a man sized torso-upper chest. When using a solid flat nose bullet.

[35remington]

The FBI tests consider 12-18 inches of penetration in gelatin to be needed. Depending upon velocity obtained, a "solid" 148 wadcutter will reach 22 to 24 inches. I'd say that's considerably in excess of the "minimum required." A 9mm with a flatnosed bullet of suitable weight will exceed that by quite a bit. So will a .38 when using a 158 SWC.

Both 9mm and .38 will exceed 12 inches when shooting an expanding bullet, if said bullet doesn't expand too much. So don't worry about penetration with the two calibers. It is there in whatever needed amount, whether to meet requirements or to considerably exceed it.

In pursuit of that goal, quite frankly the Handloader article called bullets that expanded rather too much as more desirable. It appears very evident that the "ideal" bullets in the article would not have met FBI minimums. At the speed and bullet weights used in the article only modestly expanding bullets would have passed muster in terms of penetration, and that's not the bullets/velocities they were calling most suitable.

In this I feel the article erred somewhat.

[GabbyM]

Ballistic gel isn't a man.

When the US Army adopted the 45 acp many decades ago. They went to the Chicago stock yards and shot hogs with many different caliber pistols. 38 Special, 9mm Luger, 45 Colt and 30 Luger/Mauser were all well represented. That's what I call a valid test.

In the big cites they remove those HP's out of men everyday. Still alive men BTW.

[35remington]

Since those same gel tests have been correlated to valid results on humans, I'd say they're quite relevant. Penetration concerns with 38's and 9mm's are unfounded given correct expanding OR non expanding ammo. Nor is solid bullet ammo of flatnose style toward the "minimum required" end of the needed penetration range. It is in fact considerably in excess of any needed penetration. I can refer you to any results you consider more relevant as this has been well documented, not only in gelatin but in actual use.

Since the thread has "manstopper" in it, perhaps we'd better stick to men, not beeves. The stockyard tests were on cattle, not hogs.

[Forrest r]

I agree with Frank46 about the superb article in Handloader magazine (number 298 October 2015). The only shortfall in it is a source for the 140 grain "Man-Stopper" bullets based on the old Webley design or of a mold for the same. The article discusses the problem of getting sufficient velocity out of a short-barrel .38 Special for bullet expansion, and how this particular bullet works extremely well with moderate felt recoil. I'd love to try it myself, if I could find a source. They reference a guy named Bob Hayley in Texas as having produced them.

I have a snub nosed 38spl & 44spl, one of the things I wanted to try/test this winter was to make some of these bullets up and test them in the snub noses. I was going to use rahine hb cast bullets for the test.

150gr fnhb bullet for the 38spl

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/38splhbfn_zpsd4d597cb.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/38splhbfn_zpsd4d597cb.jpg.html)

200gr fnhb bullets for the 44cal's

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/raphinehb192s_zpsfr21rl73.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/raphinehb192s_zpsfr21rl73.jpg.html)

I'm going to make a hp jig for them and test different size/shaped hp's to see what kind of "webley hphb's" work the best.

Was also going to use the same hp jig to test hbhp swc's used in the fbi loads. I have lyman hb molds for the 38spl/358431 & 44spl/429422.

Should be interesting pitting the webley hollow based hollow pointed flat nosed bullets against the fbi hollow based hollow points swc's in the snub nosed 38spl and the 44spl.

[tazman]

I would like to see the results of that test myself.

[Ric-san]

I will have to find some HPWC and they this out.

[tazman]

I recently picked up a mold from NOE on a group buy. It is a copy of the 358432 with a hollow point. I have yet to load any of them but it looks good so far.
I also have their 148 grain hollow base wadcutter and it shoots really well. It may replace my other molds for target shooting.

[castalott]

A little real life here....A cousin who was county LEO that had a BIG city in it had to put down a mean bulldog. Cousin was wonderful shot ( trophies to prove it) and aimed for dog between the eyes with Glock 9mm with the then current wonderammo. Shot entered one eye and dog went down....and stood back up....second shot in head did the trick. Cousin had seniority to go back to 45 acp pistol and did so that day. No one knows if the 45 would have failed also....

Yes, the dog was dead with the 9mm but didn't know it....

Said cousin also said that when they had to go into the bad area, 10 to 15 cops ,each with a pump shotgun, was the normal way....

I dunno what this proves.....I hope I NEVER need to find out.....

[tazman]

I have both a 12 gauge shotgun and a 38 special revolver in the bedroom. The first is for a crowd, the second is for precise work or single opponents.
I trust the 38 because I know just where the boolit is going when I pull the trigger on it.
I consider proper placement to be much more important than power for stopping a man.
I have seen whitetail deer dropped where they stood by a 22rf short(brain shot) and other deer run for 100 yards with the heart blown out of their chest by a 12 gauge slug. You don't know how an animal is going to respond to a body shot not in the central nervous system. Same for a man.

[GabbyM]

A little real life here....A cousin who was county LEO that had a BIG city in it had to put down a mean bulldog. Cousin was wonderful shot ( trophies to prove it) and aimed for dog between the eyes with Glock 9mm with the then current wonderammo. Shot entered one eye and dog went down....and stood back up....second shot in head did the trick. Cousin had seniority to go back to 45 acp pistol and did so that day. No one knows if the 45 would have failed also....

Yes, the dog was dead with the 9mm but didn't know it....

Said cousin also said that when they had to go into the bad area, 10 to 15 cops ,each with a pump shotgun, was the normal way....

I dunno what this proves.....I hope I NEVER need to find out.....

Your cousin used extremely poor shot placement. Dogs among many other predators with front facing eyes. Don't have there brains in between the eyes.

[castalott]

I thought he did wonderful for the time frame involved...but I do see your point. I also doubt the slug had time to expand much either. Dogs are a wonderous creation....some are incredibly sturdy!

Would you have tried for the brain or went for heart/lungs?

I know a deer with his heart demolished will still live 5 seconds/ or 75 yards...whichever is less...

[Norman524]

A little real life here....A cousin who was county LEO that had a BIG city in it had to put down a mean bulldog. Cousin was wonderful shot ( trophies to prove it) and aimed for dog between the eyes with Glock 9mm with the then current wonderammo. Shot entered one eye and dog went down....and stood back up....second shot in head did the trick. Cousin had seniority to go back to 45 acp pistol and did so that day. No one knows if the 45 would have failed also....

Yes, the dog was dead with the 9mm but didn't know it....

Said cousin also said that when they had to go into the bad area, 10 to 15 cops ,each with a pump shotgun, was the normal way....

I dunno what this proves.....I hope I NEVER need to find out.....

To be honest, it doesn't prove anything. I fear that some people put too much faith in handgun rounds. They're for making blood drain holes, think of them as flying drill bits if you will.

I've had the pleasure of seeing a gentleman who was shot in the head with TWO 45ACP rounds. The first shot was from about 2 feet, and was at a upward angle, facing. It took a chip of skull with it as it skipped off his skull. The second shot was quartering away, maybe 15 feet. Bullet hit, went under the scalp, briefly followed the curvature of his skull and exited above his ear. He drove himself about 12 miles home, and was sitting in his living room, smoking a cigarette with a towel wrapped around his head when we got there. Neither round penetrated the skull, and he got some antibiotics and had a headache.

There's really not a moral to the story except for these:
Pistol bullets suck, 45ACP isn't any better than 9mm, 357 sig or 40 S&W, and when it's not your time it's not your time.

[GabbyM]

I thought he did wonderful for the time frame involved...but I do see your point. I also doubt the slug had time to expand much either. Dogs are a wonderous creation....some are incredibly sturdy!

Would you have tried for the brain or went for heart/lungs?

I know a deer with his heart demolished will still live 5 seconds/ or 75 yards...whichever is less...

Two shots to put down a fighting dog isn’t bad. Your average shooter would have a hard time getting it done at all.

Blaming the caliber of gun used doesn’t get a guy very far with my logic. IMHO and after shooting a lot of small critters with 9mm, 38 Special and a 44 mag downloaded to 940 fps. I’d definitely say the big bores are better for little targets. Especially Western Rattle snakes. For police work I’d place ability to penetrate auto sheet metal and glass way up high on my list of priority. I’d use a single stack 9mm that fit my hands. Loaded with 124gr TC-FP at 1,150 fps. My old S&W M39-2 was my best nine and I traded it off on a fifteen shot wonder nine. Bad move. My current favorites now are the K frame S&W’s.
When you get right down to it there isn’t much difference between 9mm, 38 Special and 45 acp. Unless you figure in B.S.

[Jtarm]

The .38 has caused more cop deaths from sad performance then anything. Nine not better. My slingshot is better. My carry would start at the .45 and go up.

Ok. You take the slingshot. I'll take my S&W M64 loaded with full charge wadcutters & we'll square off at 10 yards.

[44man]

Ok. You take the slingshot. I'll take my S&W M64 loaded with full charge wadcutters & we'll square off at 10 yards.
I hunted with my sling for rabbits, squirrels and pheasant for years, a ball would go through a rabbit, instant kill. I never came out with less then 16 rabbits. Not so good anymore of course but a .38 is not much better.
The military person hates the nine. Most elite forces want a .45.
Tell me a .38 is as good as the ACP and I can tell you that you live in a book world. The nine is a feel good thing too. The cap and ball with BP might have been the deadliest ever.
If I had to carry, a 1911 would be my choice. I do not want a gun that takes a full magazine to stop anyone.
I would never own a snub .38. A .22 with precision is a better gun.
Many shoot nothing but paper and never shot any animal or a man but claim wondrous things.
To shoot a 6' 4" black on drugs, I would want my .500 JRH.
I could kill a man with a slingshot in the head every time.
Back in the day I would plant a .50 cal lead ball between your eyes before you could pull the trigger.
I killed pigeons over 100 yards with a slingshot in my young days. City with no guns but I also used a .22 for them and rats.

[Blackwater]

Norman's "flying drill bit" analogy isn't a bad one. This is why 44man's one-time comment about hard, square tipped WFN's cutting larger "leak holes" still has me fascinated. I think he was onto something significant, and Norman's "flying drill bit" comment kind'a meshes well with that. My experience tends to make me conclude very differently from Norman's though, and bigger bullets almost alway do a better job of stopping aggressors or game.

A friend of mine has shot more deer than most people have ever seen, and one of his all time great favorites is the one he started out with, the .45 Colt, and mostly, he just loads factory equivalent loads in his Rugers, and it performs quite well on deer. Of course, he's a really great shot, and places his bullets well 99.99% of the time, and they never go far after the shot. The ones he shoots in the head don'g go anywhere but straight down.

The indicent of the .45 not penetrating or stopping on the skull shots is the exception that basically kind'a proves the rule that big bullets do better. The .45's only real "weakness" is that those RN bullets CAN tend to skip off hard surfaces because the velocity is fairly low. Change that to a SWC or RNF configuration, or a TC profile, and I suspect the results would have been quite different. Remember, it's not the CALIBER that kills, it's the BULLET! And different bullets can have profound effects on the terminal performance we get in EVERY caliber, bar none. Even the big calibers need appropriate bullets to the task at hand. Violate that rule, and bad things can happen. One must really be pretty dogged about evaluating results from any given specific instance, and look at ALL the factors involved. That's more "trouble" than many want to go to these days, but it'll never stop being necessary, no matter what we "like" or are willing to consider.

BTW, my buddy has shot many deer with just about any common caliber you can think of, and his findings, based on real world shooting of deer, was that the 9mm. HP's were superior to the .45 hardball, and easily outperformed the JRN's of the bigger round. Change that bullet to a SWC and the reverse was the case. Good illustration of how important bullet configuration really is in the real world, but even then, nothing is 100.000% effective in stopping except a brain shot, and for that, even a lowly .22 LR can serve well, IF, of course, it's placed well. Marksmanship will always be required, and it's a given these days that many just don't have the time or opportunity to practice enough to get really good, so everybody seems to be searching for a "magic bullet" or caliber that will make up for that. Improvements CAN indeed be had now, and some are being developed, but marksmanship will always, Always, ALWAYS be THE most important thing in self defense or success afield or on the range. It'll never be trumped by anything we can presently conceive of, and really, why shouldn't it? It's really not all that hard to develop, if we can just find the opportunity, and if determined, at least many if not most of us can MAKE ourselves at lest some sort of opportunity to vastly improve our skills. All it takes is a little time on a regular basis, and some thoughtful plans for a steady progress. I used to go down to the lower 40 and shoot coffee cans, or whatever I could find, including cardboard boxes. I'd face away, turn and fire on another's command, and try to take two or three targets in quick succession and at varying distances. If you have decent coordination, it really doesn't take as long as you think to significantly improve your skills, and it may well surprise you at what you can do and learn in whatever time you can make available for it. That's about as simple and quick a way to get to be a pretty darn good shot as I know. Give it a try, and see if I'm not right. All it takes, is a little forethought and rational planning, and you can reform your plan as you go, depending on your success at any given point. Your speed will likely improve faster than your groups will, but the groups will come along very well too, or should. If not, you need to focus more. It's really just that simple, and won't take nearly as long as most seem to think. It's more about the care you take in the planning and execution than it is what your skill level is starting out. I've taught people, many of them women, who'd never shot a gun in their lives, to shoot, and shoot well, and it didn't take long to get them there at all. Mostly, all you really have to do is get them to simply use and respect the basics of grip, sights and squeeze, and just divert their attention from how to move their arms, etc., and just let them do what comes naturally. Keep it simple, and most folks naturally use the arms, etc. rather instinctively, and it's best to use their given instincts rather than trying to fight them. It just works out better, and helps them achieve skills more quickly and naturally, and if they ever have to use a handgun for self defense, they're going to do it instinctively anyway, so it just makes sense to "groove" that into the way they shoot. Sure has worked well for me and the folks I've taught, anyway. FWIW?

[Bonz]

I'm going to buy this mold http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?291441-MiHec-BRASS-358429-HP-38-357-Keith-SWC-HP

[44man]

Norman's "flying drill bit" analogy isn't a bad one. This is why 44man's one-time comment about hard, square tipped WFN's cutting larger "leak holes" still has me fascinated. I think he was onto something significant, and Norman's "flying drill bit" comment kind'a meshes well with that. My experience tends to make me conclude very differently from Norman's though, and bigger bullets almost alway do a better job of stopping aggressors or game.

A friend of mine has shot more deer than most people have ever seen, and one of his all time great favorites is the one he started out with, the .45 Colt, and mostly, he just loads factory equivalent loads in his Rugers, and it performs quite well on deer. Of course, he's a really great shot, and places his bullets well 99.99% of the time, and they never go far after the shot. The ones he shoots in the head don'g go anywhere but straight down.

The indicent of the .45 not penetrating or stopping on the skull shots is the exception that basically kind'a proves the rule that big bullets do better. The .45's only real "weakness" is that those RN bullets CAN tend to skip off hard surfaces because the velocity is fairly low. Change that to a SWC or RNF configuration, or a TC profile, and I suspect the results would have been quite different. Remember, it's not the CALIBER that kills, it's the BULLET! And different bullets can have profound effects on the terminal performance we get in EVERY caliber, bar none. Even the big calibers need appropriate bullets to the task at hand. Violate that rule, and bad things can happen. One must really be pretty dogged about evaluating results from any given specific instance, and look at ALL the factors involved. That's more "trouble" than many want to go to these days, but it'll never stop being necessary, no matter what we "like" or are willing to consider.

BTW, my buddy has shot many deer with just about any common caliber you can think of, and his findings, based on real world shooting of deer, was that the 9mm. HP's were superior to the .45 hardball, and easily outperformed the JRN's of the bigger round. Change that bullet to a SWC and the reverse was the case. Good illustration of how important bullet configuration really is in the real world, but even then, nothing is 100.000% effective in stopping except a brain shot, and for that, even a lowly .22 LR can serve well, IF, of course, it's placed well. Marksmanship will always be required, and it's a given these days that many just don't have the time or opportunity to practice enough to get really good, so everybody seems to be searching for a "magic bullet" or caliber that will make up for that. Improvements CAN indeed be had now, and some are being developed, but marksmanship will always, Always, ALWAYS be THE most important thing in self defense or success afield or on the range. It'll never be trumped by anything we can presently conceive of, and really, why shouldn't it? It's really not all that hard to develop, if we can just find the opportunity, and if determined, at least many if not most of us can MAKE ourselves at lest some sort of opportunity to vastly improve our skills. All it takes is a little time on a regular basis, and some thoughtful plans for a steady progress. I used to go down to the lower 40 and shoot coffee cans, or whatever I could find, including cardboard boxes. I'd face away, turn and fire on another's command, and try to take two or three targets in quick succession and at varying distances. If you have decent coordination, it really doesn't take as long as you think to significantly improve your skills, and it may well surprise you at what you can do and learn in whatever time you can make available for it. That's about as simple and quick a way to get to be a pretty darn good shot as I know. Give it a try, and see if I'm not right. All it takes, is a little forethought and rational planning, and you can reform your plan as you go, depending on your success at any given point. Your speed will likely improve faster than your groups will, but the groups will come along very well too, or should. If not, you need to focus more. It's really just that simple, and won't take nearly as long as most seem to think. It's more about the care you take in the planning and execution than it is what your skill level is starting out. I've taught people, many of them women, who'd never shot a gun in their lives, to shoot, and shoot well, and it didn't take long to get them there at all. Mostly, all you really have to do is get them to simply use and respect the basics of grip, sights and squeeze, and just divert their attention from how to move their arms, etc., and just let them do what comes naturally. Keep it simple, and most folks naturally use the arms, etc. rather instinctively, and it's best to use their given instincts rather than trying to fight them. It just works out better, and helps them achieve skills more quickly and naturally, and if they ever have to use a handgun for self defense, they're going to do it instinctively anyway, so it just makes sense to "groove" that into the way they shoot. Sure has worked well for me and the folks I've taught, anyway. FWIW?
Not much has ever been posted as good as this.

[9.3X62AL]

I agree, 44 Man. Very succinctly stated.

[Jtarm]

Ballistic gel isn't a man.

When the US Army adopted the 45 acp many decades ago. They went to the Chicago stock yards and shot hogs with many different caliber pistols. 38 Special, 9mm Luger, 45 Colt and 30 Luger/Mauser were all well represented. That's what I call a valid test.

In the big cites they remove those HP's out of men everyday. Still alive men BTW.

Neither are hogs and if you're referring to the Thompson-LaGarde tests, they were performed on cattle and human cadavers in 1904 and did not include the .45 ACP.

The tests were about as scientific as sticking your wet thumb in the wind to forecast the weather.

If I ever need to shoot stockyard cattle using handgun ammo available in 1904, I might give it another read.

[9.3X62AL]

Jtarm--

I would not unplug the Thompson/LaGarde testing data and conclusions entirely. I consider their validity at least on par with that of the Facklerite Jello Shooter Cadre findings, although NONE of these attempts to quantify "stopping power" is satisfactory. All of the formulae depend upon the squaring of at least one element of the ballistic equation--bullet velocity, bullet weight, or bullet diameter. The Hatcher Index of Relative Stopping Power was derived from the Thompson/LaGarde studies, and it squares the bullet diameter to arrive at its calculations. I like to note here that squaring diameter is NOT an inference, it occurs empirically. Also, Hatcher uses mass rather than weight in its estimations. With 112 years of T/LG under our belt and close to 90 years of the Hatcher Scale, I am obliged to point out that "Hatcher" predictions hew the closest to results seen empirically in sidearm gunfights during that same time.

[Bill*B]

A bit of a thread drift, perhaps, but what fun! To chime in, I posted my own 2 cents worth here (http://wa4cyp.com/Defense.htm).

[johniv]

Jtarm--

I would not unplug the Thompson/LaGarde testing data and conclusions entirely. I consider their validity at least on par with that of the Facklerite Jello Shooter Cadre findings, although NONE of these attempts to quantify "stopping power" is satisfactory. All of the formulae depend upon the squaring of at least one element of the ballistic equation--bullet velocity, bullet weight, or bullet diameter. The Hatcher Index of Relative Stopping Power was derived from the Thompson/LaGarde studies, and it squares the bullet diameter to arrive at its calculations. I like to note here that squaring diameter is NOT an inference, it occurs empirically. Also, Hatcher uses mass rather than weight in its estimations. With 112 years of T/LG under our belt and close to 90 years of the Hatcher Scale, I am obliged to point out that "Hatcher" predictions hew the closest to results seen empirically in sidearm gunfights during that same time.

Well stated sir.

[tazman]

I don't think anyone will refute the fact that with similarly placed and designed bullets, the larger the projectile the more effective it will probably be. I know from a monetary standpoint that purchasing a new/used gun specifically for carry in another caliber can become prohibitively expensive, not to mention getting used to another gun system requiring more practice time and ammunition expense.
I know there are technically better rounds out there but the 38 special has been doing the job for a long time.
The fact remains, if what you have is a 38 special, you need to know what may do the best job. I realize a lot depends on the particular weapon used, length of barrel, etc.
I am interested in this myself as I will most likely be carrying a 38 special in either a 2 or 3 inch barrel J frame for my concealed carry. I have larger frame revolvers (S&W15 4" and Taurus 627 tracker) for home use or field carry where the same answer would still apply.
I guess my questions would be do you prefer factory ammo? If so, what design, manufacturer, load, etc? If reloads, what projectile? Cast or jacketed? If cast, what boolit design?
If jacketed or factory, which cast boolit gives the closest comparable performance as far as felt recoil and impact point to be used for practice?

And yes, I did read all the way through this thread. There have been many opinions posted that really aren't practical from my standpoint. The reverse loaded hollow based wadcutter being one of them. The reliability/accuracy issue becomes more important than "maybe" getting a huge mushroom. I guess the last question I asked might be the most important since I can't afford to practice with factory ammo, particularly the $1 per shot variety.

[FergusonTO35]

I can shoot my .32 Auto, .380, 9mm, and .38 Special handguns very well. If I have to be in a gunfight and a .30-30 or .357 carbine is not available then I am going to have whichever one of those I am carrying at the time.

[9.3X62AL]

Tazman--

Practice ammo expense for a carry gun IS a major variable. In my carry calibers I have developed handloads that closely duplicate ballistic performance of the factory rounds I am obliged by CCW issuer policy and (supposed) HR 218 requirements. Cost factor for my handloads with jacketed bullets is about 5 to 1/factory to reload, with cast bullets more like 12 to 1. I am a HUGE believer in practicing with full-potential ammunition that hews closely to carry ammo characteristics.

38 Special is an EXCELLENT choice as a CCW caliber. 113 years of success is hard to argue with. Perhaps not the single-best, but certainly among the best. Even Col Jeff Cooper--the guru of 45 ACP use and carry--thought very highly of the 2" 38 Special as a CCW option, saying something along the line of "It's the 38 Special at its best."

My old agency authorizes the Rem 125 grain JHP +P loading as its 38 Special spec. These get about 925-950 FPS in most 4" barrels, and c. 825-850 FPS from the 2"-2.5". I have not had any experience at autopsy or emergency room with the results of this load; it is mostly a back-up gun or off-duty gun chambering these days, and was adopted after I retired in 2005. It doesn't generate a lot of discussion at the shop, either positive or negative.

FBI still recommends the same old 38 Special load it has encouraged for 30+ years--the +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter HP. These are easily and affordably duplicated by the handloader, and there is tons of data for "158 grain LSWCs" out there, both standard pressure and +P. In real life, these loads get to about 900-920 FPS in 4" barrels and 800-825 FPS in snubguns. Paper ballistics show them to be a notch above the 125 grainers performance-wise, and if I was to choose a 38 Special carry load for myself this one would get the nod.

[FergusonTO35]

I load my .38's (all with 4 inch tube) with the Lee 150 grain SWC at 840 fps.

[Jtarm]

Jtarm--

I would not unplug the Thompson/LaGarde testing data and conclusions entirely. I consider their validity at least on par with that of the Facklerite Jello Shooter Cadre findings, although NONE of these attempts to quantify "stopping power" is satisfactory. All of the formulae depend upon the squaring of at least one element of the ballistic equation--bullet velocity, bullet weight, or bullet diameter. The Hatcher Index of Relative Stopping Power was derived from the Thompson/LaGarde studies, and it squares the bullet diameter to arrive at its calculations. I like to note here that squaring diameter is NOT an inference, it occurs empirically. Also, Hatcher uses mass rather than weight in its estimations. With 112 years of T/LG under our belt and close to 90 years of the Hatcher Scale, I am obliged to point out that "Hatcher" predictions hew the closest to results seen empirically in sidearm gunfights during that same time.

I agree that empirical evidence is by far the best. TLG did reinforce what had already been observed in the Philippines: that the .45 Colt was superior to anything available at the time, though I think the .44-40 may have had a slight edge.

Is there a particular study you're citing?

The only one I'm familiar with is Sanow-Marshall, which seems to be widely criticized today. IIRC, it had the .357 125 JHP far ahead of anything.

That's another problem with TLG and Hatcher: there were no reliable expanding bullets available at the time..

[tazman]

A number of years ago(probably 25 or so) the 357 mag 125HP was considered to be the ultimate one shot stopper. This was based on collected statistics from police shootings and considered how quickly a man dropped after one shot with a given cartridge in the torso. This was from a magazine article(not sure which magazine).
There have been a lot of changes since then, both in calibers used and bullet technology. It would still be hard to better the effectiveness of a 357 mag loaded with a good HP bullet(current design).
There are undoubtedly more effective loads out there. I am not certain how many are easily concealed and easily controlled in a concealed carry situation. Say, for someone older who has arthritis in their hands and wrists or for a small frame woman.

[9.3X62AL]

My belief structure concerning ballistic stopping power and predictions of same is an amalgam of TLG, Hatcher, Marshall-Sanow, Keith, Skelton, Jordan, and a number of trainers I have learned from over the years. Add in quite a bit of ER and autopsy attendance and the discussions had with the medical professionals involved in those inquiries. Eclectic, I know--not deeply disciplined, either. I do try to alloy some common sense into the mix as well. As alluded to above, even an unlettered mountain man of the 1830s knew darn well that a 24 bore (58 caliber) roundball hit better and harder than some .36 caliber rifle. Rocket science it isn't, in many ways. There are no "bad" loads in 357 Magnum for felon repellent.......the 125 grainer runs faster than the 158 grainer, might have a better expansion potential, and seems to have a bit less recoil--but both do the job well. One is better served to practice more frequently and hone one's own edge rather than try splitting hairs with it over minutae like bullet weight. Driven to the caliber's full potential--current SAAMI or 1935 Doug Wesson--all bullet weights are more than adequate to the task. There is no compensation for poor placement or non-placement.......you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight (thanks to the late Sgt. Varga for that).

[tazman]

9.3X62AL---- One is better served to practice more frequently and hone one's own edge rather than try splitting hairs with it over minutae like bullet weight. Driven to the caliber's full potential--current SAAMI or 1935 Doug Wesson--all bullet weights are more than adequate to the task. There is no compensation for poor placement or non-placement.......you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight (thanks to the late Sgt. Varga for that).

Well said. I agree with that completely. Sorry for pulling it out of context, but this part made all the sense from the entire thread for me.

[9.3X62AL]

Thank you for the kind words, sir. Sorry? DON'T BE! Thoughts are like any other commodity--lots more fun when taken out of the box.

My biases strongly favor the 357 Magnum as one of the best all-around handgun calibers ever developed. I'm sure that shows through a lot of my postings here and elsewhere. The 45 ACP and 38 Special are tied for 2nd place in my heart, and for less seasoned shooters might be better choices. Both have been mondo popular for over a century for good reasons. I had a few doubts about the less-seasoned shooters on my department transitioning to the self-loader in 45 ACP, but these concerns were unfounded. Entirely so. Once a little training got installed--and refresher re-familiarization became policy--recoil didn't matter a d--n. Lamers could miss with 38 Specials and 9mms just as effectively as with a 45.

Yeah, a little harsh that last bit. Too bad--keeping one's self alive when attacked is serious business, and being employed to keep others safe is no less earnest. If you aren't capable of controlling projected lethality mechanically and morally, then don't carry arms.

[Blackwater]

VERY well said, Al!

[handyman25]

I like the 1911 45acp but carry a s&w M60 in 38 sp. The 1911 is too big and heavy so I know that I will not carry it all the time. I am home with the house locked up and I have my s&w on my side while I am typing this. I shoot at least two times a week in proper practice. I use a 158 gr bullet. Lead, swc, HP is my first choice. Note the order: proper carry gun (your choice), proper practice, proper practice, good bullet. If you like a fast 110 grain bullet, great as long as you can hit where you need. One to the heart and one to he brain, repeat if needed. just my view on things.

[Char-Gar]

As a life saving weapon against human attack, any handgun or load is an iffy proposition, compared to a rifle or shotgun. Handguns embody a laundry list of compromises and each of us has to write up our own list. I am has happy as I can be with my choices, as I can't carry a Browning 50 cal around with me, which would be my first choice. A short burst to center mass would be 100%.

[9.3X62AL]

"Belt-fed" is comforting, all right--just not comfortable. Holster choices are limited, also.

[Jtarm]

All very true, Al. No magic caliber or bullet is a substitute for training, prep, situational awareness, et al.

When asked by non-shooters the best home defense handgun, my reply is none of the above. Get a shotgun.

OP: sorry, I've commented on everything but your question:

I don't hear much about them these days, but according to Sanow-Marshall, the pre-fragmented slugs like the Glaser are the most effective in the .38.

After that, my vote would go to either a full-charge wadcutter or the FBI load.

[Good Cheer]

The .38 Special man stopper...
About thirty five years ago it occurred to me that it needed a 140 grain truncated cone with a .22 rim fire nose.:Bright idea:
Turned out to not be an original thought. And like many others I discovered that it's fun to tinker but tiresome after the initial eureka moment, testing and the flush of success. But one thing I can assure you, they were all anchored when hit and I never once had to track a wounded melon.

[9.3X62AL]

The .38 Special man stopper...
About thirty five years ago it occurred to me that it needed a 140 grain truncated cone with a .22 rim fire nose.:Bright idea:
Turned out to not be an original thought. And like many others I discovered that it's fun to tinker but tiresome after the initial eureka moment, testing and the flush of success. But one thing I can assure you, they were all anchored when hit and I never once had to track a wounded melon.

Few things on earth are as dangerous when cornered as a wounded melon. Once they start a charge, they can be unstoppable. Kudoes to ya for taking on this hazardous task in the interest of scientific advancement. :-)

[Outpost75]

Wounded melons are dangerous, but Giant Jello Man is too! He is a shape shifter who surrounds and smothers you unless you carry a sharpened GI mess kit spoon around your neck to dig yourself an airway...

[wonderwolf]

Wonder if the bullets shown in the article would feed in my .357 bolt action. I got the HP version of 360432 from NOE a few months back, still need to work out a load for distance stuff but I wouldn't hesitate to load them up heavy in .38's and carry them for close in work.

[tazman]

I have that same mold from NOE and I also have the Lyman version. The Lyman version working so well is why I bought the NOE version. This boolit shoots excellent in all my revolvers, and is already set up to load long for full power loads.

[wonderwolf]

with 2.7gr of bullseye I was getting lousy groups may have to bump it up some. Ballistics calculator says it may be too stable, guess that means it might have some wobble.

[tazman]

I crimp in the crimp groove and use 3.5 gr of Bullseye or 5.0 of CFE pistol.
I never had much luck with loads under 3.0 of Bullseye unless I was using a hollow based wadcutter crimped over the front of the boolit as for a Smith model 52. They are fun to shoot but don't group as well for me.

[wonderwolf]

I crimp in the crimp groove and use 3.5 gr of Bullseye or 5.0 of CFE pistol.
I never had much luck with loads under 3.0 of Bullseye unless I was using a hollow based wadcutter crimped over the front of the boolit as for a Smith model 52. They are fun to shoot but don't group as well for me.

I'll try a stiffer load next weekend then, Just got done loading a test batch of 3.0gr of Bullseye but I'll go ahead and load a few more working up to 3.5gr.

[rjathon]

Got my Accurate 36-201D mold back from Erik, so it is now a 188-grain HP with LARGE cavity. 8-)

151266

If one were to use that bullet without a hollow point could a soft allow or torching the nose make it expand enough?

wow that is a great looking bullet!

[Outpost75]

If one were to use that bullet without a hollow point could a soft alloy...make it expand enough?
...

At low velocity about 830 fps a solid is not going to expand, even with soft alloy, but the meplat is 0.6 of bullet diameter and large enough to give better "crush" than a roundnose. Based on experience with similar bullets in .38 Special the large HP cast 1:30 tin/lead should expand just fine at 800+ fps

[Petrol & Powder]

As a life saving weapon against human attack, any handgun or load is an iffy proposition, compared to a rifle or shotgun. Handguns embody a laundry list of compromises and each of us has to write up our own list. I am has happy as I can be with my choices, as I can't carry a Browning 50 cal around with me, which would be my first choice. A short burst to center mass would be 100%.

Very true. Handguns are poor tools to stop a human but often the only practical tool available.

[9.3X62AL]

Very true. Handguns are poor tools to stop a human but often the only practical tool available.

Yes sir. The sidearm is a comprehensive compendium of compromises. Having one on board beats throwing rocks, though.

[robertbank]

Interesting read for sure from folks I respect. All of this had led me to have my Mossberg Defender beside Winchester PDX1.12 Defender slugs. 1Oz slug accompanied by 3 x 00 pellets nicely secured behind the seat of my truck. Out to 25 yards the four group nicely in a five inch circle. Covers melons for sure and still allowed by our ever present Liberal Gov't. Hard to find a decent belt holster for it though. I have more four legged worries then most of you folks do.

[9.3X62AL]

I do like The Gauge. Very much.

[wonderwolf]

Yes sir. The sidearm is a comprehensive compendium of compromises. Having one on board beats throwing rocks, though.
Which is one reason why I started making slings (david/goliath type) back when I was in scouts, couldn't have a gun but boy you could sling a golf ball size rock with enough force to put somebody down for good if you nailed them in the bean bowl.


I crimp in the crimp groove and use 3.5 gr of Bullseye or 5.0 of CFE pistol.
I never had much luck with loads under 3.0 of Bullseye unless I was using a hollow based wadcutter crimped over the front of the boolit as for a Smith model 52. They are fun to shoot but don't group as well for me.

Hit the range again today and tried 3.0 , 3.2 and 3.5gr of bullseye under that HP 360432 bullet out to 50 yards, I'm wondering if the cavity is causing a lot more wobble than it really should because the higher loads just kept opening up the groups which is very disappointing to me, I'll try some different loads and see if anything works better than the bullseye loads. The carbine isn't a super accurate but I have obtained some very good groups with it. Handgun groups were a lot better but they were also just at 21'

[S. Galbraith]

Interesting article in the latest handloader magazine. At some point in time the Brits had a 45 caliber manstopper bullet for their 455 webley revolvers. Big hollow point bullet. Well Bob Haley in texas came up with one for the 38 special same as it's bigger brother but at 140 grains. !40 grains would easily get to 800 fps without straining anything. Good article. And get the single shot mag from wolf publishing while you are at it. Good read. Frank

If you look at photographs of the old .455 Webley Manstopper it was basically just a fat, soft wadcutter with a concave nose and base. It was notoriously hard to load into the cylinder, particularly under combat stress which is why the it never saw much military or police use even before the Hague Convention. The round nose MKI, MKII, and MKVI remained the standard bullet designs as long as the Webley was in service.

In modern defensive loads which are FAR superior to the old Manstopper design, there is still a degree of conical shape to the JHP design to assist in feeding.

[tazman]

Hit the range again today and tried 3.0 , 3.2 and 3.5gr of bullseye under that HP 360432 bullet out to 50 yards, I'm wondering if the cavity is causing a lot more wobble than it really should because the higher loads just kept opening up the groups which is very disappointing to me, I'll try some different loads and see if anything works better than the bullseye loads. The carbine isn't a super accurate but I have obtained some very good groups with it. Handgun groups were a lot better but they were also just at 21'

I haven't tried them beyond 25 yards yet since I don't currently have a range that long. Most of my testing is done at 25-30 feet since that is the distance from my bedroom door to the other side of the house. I figure that is the longest shot I will probably have to take with them.
I need to get some sandbags for my handguns. The range where I shoot pulled all the gun rests off the range. It seems some people weren't paying attention to their alignment with the backstop and would shoot the target carriers/cables when resting the gun. No rests make it hard to tell just how good the loads are since I can't hold all that steady off hand.

[FergusonTO35]

Interesting read for sure from folks I respect. All of this had led me to have my Mossberg Defender aside Winchester PDX1.12 Defender slugs. 1Oz slug accompanied by 3 x 00 pellets nicely secured behind the seat of my truck. Out to 25 yards the four group nicely in a five inch circle. Covers melons for sure and still allowed by our ever present Liberal Gov't. Hard to find a decent belt holster for it though. I have more four legged worries then most of you folks do.

Are you folks allowed to vehicle carry long guns?

[SantaFe66]

Just load a hollow-base wadcutter backwards.

No, that's not what this Bob Hayley bullet is. Not even close. The cavity is supported on the edges with much more lead than the HBWC loaded backwards. If you haven't read that article, do so. You'll see the tests he performed out of a j frame that are very convincing. My main issue is quick reloads aren't assured as the flat bullet may hang up. I load my j frame first with the Manstoppers and the reloads with 110gr HP Winchesters loaded fairly hot (+p). The Hayley bullets are 140gr too, so there's some whallop there.

By the way, the Jet Loader with good holders is the ticket for j frames. Mas Ayoob has several videos comparing them vs. Safariland and HK and the Jet Loaders work better once you master the drill.

[FergusonTO35]

I'm currently working with the Lyman 35891 (not 358091) in my S&W 637. My mold drops them right at 146 grains with range scrap lead. This boolit is really more of a very short SWC than a traditional full wadcutter or even button nose wadcutter like the Lee 358-148-WC. I crimp it in the topmost groove so there is about .250 of boolit protruding. I find that this one definitely prefers charges intended for SWC designs rather than wadcutters. The usual 2.7-2.8 grains Bullseye produces erratic velocity and lots of lube smoke. I'm thinking somewhere around 3.2 grains should be the sweet spot for the 637, maybe 3.4 or 3.5 for my model 10's. Accurate little slug too.

[quasi]

remember the Glazer Safety Slugs? The local city Police fund they worked very well when they were issued .38 special revolvers.

[shunka]

I have been following this thread with great interest, as we have a special fondness for the .38 Chief Special and it's variants...


remember the Glazer Safety Slugs? The local city Police fund they worked very well when they were issued .38 special revolvers.

I too felt the Glaser has a place in the mix, but due to lack of penetration my LEO friends of nigh on 30 years advocated alternating Glasers with 158 gr +P Lead SWC rounds ... then the discussion of "which pill should come up first" arose, and was followed by the fight... errr Long Esoteric Discussions...

yhs
shunka

[44man]

The .38 is not good no matter. Either too fast expansion or no penetration. Many police lost their lives with the thing. The Webley was better but never matched the .45 Colt or even the ACP. Darned C&B's were better. To recommend a .38 makes me say a FOUR to start.

[FergusonTO35]

Police continue to lose their lives while armed with 9mm, .40, and .45 as has happened in my state the past couple of years. Many bystanders are hit by stray police bullets because agencies emphasize capacity and stopping power over marksmanship. I used to work for an LE agency and had access to a drive with the coppers' qualification scores. The weapons used were Glock .40 and .45 pistols, 870 riot guns, and M4 carbines. Most of the cop scores were not encouraging.

Friend, a gun or cartridge is only useful if you can actually shoot the darn thing. I, and thousands of other people, cannot shoot a carry size gun in a +.40 caliber cartridge. I've been shooting a wide variety of guns for over 30 years now and am keenly aware of my strengrhs and limitations. So no, more practice is not going to change anything in this regard. A smartly loaded .38 Special or standard 9mm is the strongest handgun I can shoot with any kind of accuracy and follow up shot ability. I will continue to carry the .380, .38 Special, and 9mm because they match my abilities and I am confident with them. After all, it's my life on the line and not someone else's. If I were to carry a gun I knew was beyond my ability and then failed to put rounds where they need to go in a life or death situation then it will be me who bears the consequences of that decision, not the well intentioned person who told me that a small gun would only get me killed.

The body count in the Orlando massacre could have been alot lower if at some point the terrorist had received a well placed round from a .38, 9mm, or even .32, .25, or .22. It may have not have had the same dramatic effect as a .44 or .45 but it almost certainly would have incapacitated him enough to limit the carnage. A "small" gun or cartridge always beats none at all.

[robertbank]

Are you folks allowed to vehicle carry long guns?

Really a late reply but yes as long as they are covered up or in a case. No issues at all. Ammo has to be separate from the gun of course and the gun cannot be loaded. I usually have the Mossberg with me when travelling here in BC. Folks aren't the issue but you never can tell when bears are about. I hate to have to change a tire along the highway late in the evening with Winnie the Pooh wandering about.

You have to have your firearms license with you.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

Police continue to lose their lives while armed with 9mm, .40, and .45 as has happened in my state the past couple of years. Many bystanders are hit by stray police bullets because agencies emphasize capacity and stopping power over marksmanship. I used to work for an LE agency and had access to a drive with the coppers' qualification scores. The weapons used were Glock .40 and .45 pistols, 870 riot guns, and M4 carbines. Most of the cop scores were not encouraging.

Friend, a gun or cartridge is only useful if you can actually shoot the darn thing. I, and thousands of other people, cannot shoot a carry size gun in a +.40 caliber cartridge. I've been shooting a wide variety of guns for over 30 years now and am keenly aware of my strengrhs and limitations. So no, more practice is not going to change anything in this regard. A smartly loaded .38 Special or standard 9mm is the strongest handgun I can shoot with any kind of accuracy and follow up shot ability. I will continue to carry the .380, .38 Special, and 9mm because they match my abilities and I am confident with them. After all, it's my life on the line and not someone else's. If I were to carry a gun I knew was beyond my ability and then failed to put rounds where they need to go in a life or death situation then it will be me who bears the consequences of that decision, not the well intentioned person who told me that a small gun would only get me killed.

The body count in the Orlando massacre could have been alot lower if at some point the terrorist had received a well placed round from a .38, 9mm, or even .32, .25, or .22. It may have not have had the same dramatic effect as a .44 or .45 but it almost certainly would have incapacitated him enough to limit the carnage. A "small" gun or cartridge always beats none at all.

I agree with this whole heartedly.
I am another one of those people who simply cannot control a heavier weapon than 38 special or 9mm reliably.
I practice weekly at least. I have shot heavier weapons in an attempt to get used to the the recoil. At a certain point, the recoil becomes too much and I either flinch or cannot recover after the shot.
For me, the heavier guns are a waste of time and money and serve no purpose for defense or much of anything else.
I trust what I can do with the 38 special.

[cainttype]

If small size for easy concealment, lightweight for comfortable extended carry, versatility of load choices, utter reliability, and a very high potential return ratio on lethality-versus-size are on your "want list" for a personal protection firearm that could see T-shirt & shorts, pocket, or purse carry... You will be hard pressed to find a better all-around choice than a compact, lightweight, hammerless 38 Special.
The only firearm worth anything is the one you have with you when you need it.

[44man]

Remember the 38 S&W? I worked on many long ago. I lived in Cleveland and to test fire I found to shoot in my fathers car did not make noise. I piled 2x4's on the back floor and put the guns over the front seat. Six shots and every boolit was only half depth in the first board to be plucked out with fingers. They would not go through a winter coat and a .25? Better put it in the BG's eye.
The .38 was standard but the .357 when it came out was the perfect people stopper so the .38 was jacked up with +P.
The .41 came out for police duty but it could not be handled and the .44 mag proved too powerful and did not stop a man as fast as the .357.
A gun is always better then nothing but to take on a creep with an M15 at distance, I sure don't want a .25 or a .38. Most can't hit at 7 yards but the creep might be across the room and when you miss, he will take you out. Even a hit still has you in a bad place. The nine is also sad and is why 17 rounds are shot by police as fast as they can. Most can miss.
I shot with police and never seen guns leaded so bad with the soft factory stuff they fired. Accuracy was dead in the water. I cleaned their guns for them and a full day for each was common. They were poke in the rib guns.
I think a 1911 or 10mm or .40 is what they should carry. If you can't handle them I don't want you protecting me. When they go in for a creep, they don't have a .38 or .25, they have M16's but might have killed innocents in Orlando also.
I still remember the big brute of a guy that came to shoot, White House security. He had a Block and could not hit the paper at 10 yards. I shot his gun and Pete shot it and we poked the center out. Then he watched me take targets at 100 yards with my big revolvers. He never came back!
Taking a druggy with a little gun is like a .25 on the hip in grizz country. Carry salt and pepper. File off the front sight too.
Sorry too small gets you killed.

[cainttype]

The 38 S&W is a far cry from what is available with the 38 Special today.
I can carry anything I want, anytime I leave home. If invited to a gunfight, I'd probably grab a 1911 45 ACP... but for most of the year here the 1911 is not something suitable for everyday carry with light clothing, and you can completely forget ultra-light clothing or pocket carry... and again, smaller ladies purses.

Several have previously mentioned some heavier-than-normal options available to casters/swagers/handloaders in this thread. Anyone actually familiar with those options, we're talking hands-on experience, would not dismiss them as ineffective. They would, in fact, find that idea somewhat ludicrous.
The reality is that a snubby with a factory 158gr LSWCHP has been a standard for deep concealment for decades. That fact is not because it is ineffective.

Some situations dictate a small platform. Maximizing terminal performance potential with a minimum of size leaves the compact 38 Specials with very few serious competitors.
The fact that such a weapon can often be carried, effectively concealed (while larger options have to remain home locked in a safe), make the option something to be seriously considered by anyone restricted by size and/or weight.

[44man]

Small ladies are not better off with small guns. A tiny gun more concealed is not safety. Would I ever give my wife a .25? She drives a 4 Runner not a square piece of junk. I do not worry about her with the big hunk of metal. She was at home with a .44 mag.
If I had to shoot someone breaking in, it will be the .500 JRH , might take my 4 runner out too but the creep will be slush.
Not like TV where the BG's are shooting full auto rifles and the good guys are running and killing all with a pistol. Hide behind drywall or a table. Many of you live in that world. James bond with his little gun that never failed. You want to stop, better have bigger.
Stupid was the .223 for troops. Millions of rounds for a kill. a 30-06 from an M1 could go through a 2' tree to kill. The varmint round could not go through weeds. We lost many due to a toy rifle. The SKS was deadly.
Seems the .38 got many killed in war until the ACP came in.

[cainttype]

So if conditions, clothing, etc. leave you with two choices...
1) Larger firearm remains home and you opt to carry a properly loaded 38 Special.
2) Larger firearm remains home and you go unarmed.
You're going to be better prepared for some life-threatening encounter with an armed assailant by choosing which?

It isn't complicated.
The ONLY firearm worth anything... is the firearm you have on you when you NEED it.

[Dan Cash]

It isn't complicated.
The ONLY firearm worth anything... is the firearm you have on you when you NEED it.

So absolutely true.

[FergusonTO35]

44man, if you can shoot the big guns and are confident with them then by all means do so. I won't disparage anyone's choice of protection as long as they return the favor. I will agree with you that better than nothing is about the nicest thing you can say about most of the craptastic factory ammo available for the .25 Auto, .38 S&W, and even many .38 Special varieties. These are all watered down big time so they won't blow up granny's lemon squeezer or questionable pre-'68 import.

Now, good reloads or factory ammo of known quality and performance can significantly change the equation. No, it doesn't transform the mousegun into a manstopper just as a big bore doesn't guarantee one shot stops 100% of the time. However good ammo with consistent velocity that is up where it is supposed to be will have likely have enough penetration to kill or seriously injure the bad guy if the defender can place the round where it needs to go. Which, he/she will have a better chance of doing as they are confident and practiced with their "small" gun, instead of one that is beyond their ability.

[44man]

It is DISTANCE to the BG with a rifle that would worry me in a situation like Orlando. There are poor people in the way too. To even hit him with a bee sting is scary.
True, better loads can be had for the .38 but why not a .357 instead?
NCIS guys NEVER miss and run the gun for an hour without going empty.

[DerekP Houston]

It is DISTANCE to the BG with a rifle that would worry me in a situation like Orlando. There are poor people in the way too. To even hit him with a bee sting is scary.
True, better loads can be had for the .38 but why not a .357 instead?
NCIS guys NEVER miss and run the gun for an hour without going empty.

Indeed, a handgun will never match a rifle in that situation. Understand the limitations of the platform and cartridge and use it as designed. I would MUCH rather have a 357 or 45 with me, but with my big belly and small frame, they just don't conceal well at all. I feel just fine carrying my self-loaded 38 +p 158 SWC-HP but others may not, to each his own. If it happens to be a longer than 10 yrds engagement, my feet are faster than my hands.

[pmer]

I thought of this thread while at the museum in Glendive Montana yesterday. In a case they had Smith model 10 wiith what looked like a 200 grain rnfp boolit. An accompanying police report said the boolit was recovered from the abdomen of the victim and it took a couple days for him to pass. Alcohol was involved. I bet if the hit was higher it would have been done quicker.

[44man]

Exactly, you need to hit the creep in the head at 50 yards and remember you are slippery with a pile of brown in your shorts when someone starts to spray with an AR. To be tough takes a special person. But I still contend if the SOB knows there are guns inside, he will not go in so no shots are needed anyway. They hunt those in gun free zones.
The poor people were gay but are they denied to protect themselves? The club thought so but they are just people. Who cares what they live like, none deserve to die.
To put up a sign that says "Guns Welcome" instead of the red one with a line across a gun will save more then the police can handle. I would sue the club from stopping my second amendment rights.
I hate the sign that says "This is a gun free zone."
Blacks that abide by the law die by the thousands, killed by black criminals but they are denied protection from liberals that run the city. DC is a place you don't want to enter, Detroit--WOW. tightest restrictions ever and more death. NY is a cesspool.
If Billary gets in you need to hire a guard at your side even on the porcelain fixture. Hillary is protected every second so will she pay for us? With whose money?

[robertbank]

Tazman several pages back you mentioned CFE Pistol powder. Have you done any testing? Oddly enough the powder is available up here while other more popular powders remain elusive at best. Clays is now made up here yet has not graced a shelf in Canada for over two years. Looking for an alternative powder for 9MM and 38spl for Cast and jacketed bullets. CFE has some promise if the rags are correct. With the new to me Model 10 arriving in tomorrows mail I an going to be at the range for the next couple of weeks solid.:-)

Thanks

Bob

[cainttype]

"Manstopper bullet for the 38 special" was a thread started by the OP referencing a magazine article about a 38 bullet designed similarly to an unconventional 45 cal British design. That began a discussion with members detailing other projectile designs for the 38, several of which were also somewhat unconventional.
Within a week the conversation had morphed to include various test loads and load techniques. Within a month it included firearm types, opinions on preparation, and mindset with a focus on the use of deadly force.

The thread has now morphed into something unrecognizable from the original intent... but that is not uncommon, unexpected, or necessarily a bad thing.
Anyone interested in the original subject matter would be well-advised to read the first few pages of this thread.

[FergusonTO35]

Friend, any and every thread on a gun forum, no matter the original topic, has the potential to mutate into which caliber is best, Glock vs. 1911, auto vs. revolver, AR vs. AK, and many other things that gun people argue endlessly over.

[Outpost75]

The Mods here seem to tolerate alot of off topic posts, mis-directed threads and silly nonsense.

It isn't for me to criticise, but just an observation. I suppose that is what makes this site what it is, for better or worse.

Thread drift is like mission creep... a characteristic of management style.

I best shut up now.

[44man]

The Mods here seem to tolerate alot of off topic posts, mis-directed threads and silly nonsense.

It isn't for me to criticise, but just an observation. I suppose that is what makes this site what it is, for better or worse.

Thread drift is like mission creep... a characteristic of management style.

I best shut up now.
IT IS WHY HERE IS BEST. Everything always leads to another that fits. We all understand and if you can't spell or speak English, we love you too. To be too strict is not good. We should talk like friends with a beer.

[Outpost75]

IT IS WHY HERE IS BEST. Everything always leads to another that fits. We all understand and if you can't spell or speak English, we love you too. To be too strict is not good. We should talk like friends with a beer.

I respect your opinion, but find the dialogue here petty,and tiresome at times. That is when I turn off the computer. Cheers!

[44man]

Maybe but I have learned all is important and even little things are to learn from. So I also respect what you feel. Are we friends? Or do we bicker about what sock is for the left foot?

[9.3X62AL]

I respect your opinion, but find the dialogue here petty,and tiresome at times. That is when I turn off the computer. Cheers!

Hear, hear!

[Outpost75]

Maybe but I have learned all is important and even little things are to learn from. So I also respect what you feel. Are we friends? Or do we bicker about what sock is for the left foot?

Friends can have a spirited discussion on subjects in which they may not agree, but are willing to hear a contrary opinion in hope of learning something. I find that an aged single malt is more productive to such discourse than beer, but if we should meet the drinks are on me.

[9.3X62AL]

My old job authorized roughly 300 makes/models of sidearm in 6 calibers, practically all were personal purchases since the addition of self-loaders in 1987. For a 25-words-or-less load recommendation, I have always favored "As much caliber as the user can safely manage and hit well with". My EDCs are in 357 Magnum--40 S&W--and 45 ACP.

[DerekP Houston]

Friends can have a spirited discussion on subjects in which they may not agree, but are willing to hear a contrary opinion in hope of learning something. I find that an aged single malt is more productive to such discourse than beer, but if we should meet the drinks are on me.

Some of the best stuff Ive read on here has been off topic =). Obviously the sock with the L on it goes on the left foot :D

Back on topic, I wouldn't count on a single round of *anything* as a manstopper regardless of the caliber. While I can shoot a 40-45 just fine, my follow up shots are much slower and it is harder for me to conceal carry. After a few sessions of krav maga and watching youtube disarm techniques I decided on a 357 hammerless revolver as my back up gun as it is the hardest to stop me from firing. No slide to jam, no hammer to grab, and it shoots through my clothing if needed. As it is DAO I consider it a belly gun/last resort the same as carrying a 9mm or a 380 bersa, this is not a aiming gun but a point and shoot and get the f out of there. I rarely fire full power rounds from it for practice though, as it is brutal on my hands.

[tazman]

Tazman several pages back you mentioned CFE Pistol powder. Have you done any testing? Oddly enough the powder is available up here while other more popular powders remain elusive at best. Clays is now made up here yet has not graced a shelf in Canada for over two years. Looking for an alternative powder for 9MM and 38spl for Cast and jacketed bullets. CFE has some promise if the rags are correct. With the new to me Model 10 arriving in tomorrows mail I an going to be at the range for the next couple of weeks solid.:-)

Thanks

Bob


I have done a lot of shooting/testing with CFE pistol in 38 special and 9mm. I really like it with cast boolits in these cartridges.
I can give you load data and velocities if you like. That said, my data mirrors the data on the Hodgdon data site. My results and chrono tests come out the same as theirs did a few months ago before they re-tested and increased their fps.
Since the 358432 has the same amount of boolit inside the case as a standard semi-wadcutter, I use full power loads data for a 158 grain SWC in my 38 special cases. Accuracy is outstanding.
With either the 358432 or NOE 360-150-swc I get 875fps with 4.5 grains of CFE pistol and 950fps with 5.0 grains of CFE pistol. This was shot from a 6" model 14 and a 4" model 15. Both guns chronoed within 5 fps.
I haven't chronoed my new 8 3/8 inch barrelled 686 yet or my model 37 so I don't know what it does in longer or shorter barrel.

[robertbank]

Hey, like a few others on this thread I owe you a bunch and will try those loads as soon as our group sends in a powder order. How does it compare to Clays for being clean burning in the 38spl. At any given IDPA match I will run 140rds through the gun and clean burning helps a bunch. As an aside all I need to make is >110ish PF in the 38spl. and 140ish in the 9MM. You ever wonder up this way coffee is always on and there a plate at the table.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

Hey, like a few others on this thread I owe you a bunch and will try those loads as soon as our group sends in a powder order. How does it compare to Clays for being clean burning in the 38spl. At any given IDPA match I will run 140rds through the gun and clean burning helps a bunch. As an aside all I need to make is >110ish PF in the 38spl. and 140ish in the 9MM. You ever wonder up this way coffee is always on and there a plate at the table.

Take Care

Bob


I can't compare it to Clays since I have never used any. It is much cleaner than Bullseye and nearly as clean as WST. I often shoot up to 300 rounds for an afternoon's practice.
I use up to 5.0 grains with a 125 grain lead boolit in my 9mm Beretta 92fs and am getting right at 1150fps. According to the online calculator this equates to a PF of 143.
Any 950fps load with a 147 grain boolit will just barely get you to 140 PF. Hodgdon's site says you can do that with 4.2 grains and a jacketed bullet with a 4 inch barrel. I got that with 4.2 of CFE and a cast boolit, but I think I was pushing things a bit. It certainly shot well enough.
These loads are published on the Hodgdon data site except for the 147 grain lead boolit load.
For the 38 special, any wadcutter or SWC weighing 148 grains or more, moving 800fps will get you a PF of 120. That is easily accomplished.

[robertbank]

Thanks again. I have a project ahead of me. CFE was recommended to me sometime ago at the peak of powder shortages. I will pursue now I know it works well enough for cast bullets.

It was over 40C in the back pits today and I nearly got fried. Cools off tomorrow a bit tomorrow so the Model 10 gets a work out for sure.

Take Care

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

Nowadays I focus almost exclusively on Bullseye, Titegroup, and HP-38 for handguns as they are the only powders that tend to be in stock. Others that I really like such as Accurate Number 2 and 5 and Green Dot have only been seen on the side of milk cartons here for the last few years.

[44man]

We have problems and gun shops order what sells the best. Most do not even know a lot of powders. They do not know guns and only care for money. The years where a gun shop knew anything is gone. I grew up with the best. Ask for a powder today and he will say "only 8# but why so much to test? What if it fails?
i have a few powders and if I can't get them I don't shoot.

[tazman]

We have problems and gun shops order what sells the best. Most do not even know a lot of powders. They do not know guns and only care for money. The years where a gun shop knew anything is gone. I grew up with the best. Ask for a powder today and he will say "only 8# but why so much to test? What if it fails?
i have a few powders and if I can't get them I don't shoot.

I am fortunate that I have 2 "local" shops that carry a decent supply and variety of reloading supplies including powders. Both of these stores are run by families that are shooters, so they know what you are talking about when you ask about something. One of them also carries a good inventory of used firearms. I have been doing business with one of them for over 40 years. Three generations of the same family have been running the store now.

[DerekP Houston]

I am fortunate that I have 2 "local" shops that carry a decent supply and variety of reloading supplies including powders. Both of these stores are run by families that are shooters, so they know what you are talking about when you ask about something. One of them also carries a good inventory of used firearms. I have been doing business with one of them for over 40 years. Three generations of the same family have been running the store now.

I really like "10 ring" here in Houston, but it depends on the sales guy working the counter when I show up. I don't mind paying a bit more for local knowledgble folks. The last 2 times i have gone to look at reloading gear and powders I got new faces who didn't even know how to find the Hornady Presses, I passed that time and ordered online. I guess if I only wanted a single lb of powder to try they would be reasonable, but the standard markup is 10-15 over what powdervalley charges me and primers are double and only sold by 1k. Very easy to break even on the hazmat with them and I get a better return for my dollar.

[tazman]

My places have the same prices on primers that the online stores do. On the powder, they are often a bit cheaper. I really don't have any incentive to buy online under these circumstances.

[44man]

My store gets a pallet of powders so hazmat is nothing but they want you to order 8# for one they don't have--PLUS hazmat. Powder from the pallet can be cheaper. Primers are cheaper and they usually have what I want. They still look at me funny when I say "give me the whole thousand."

[FergusonTO35]

I always shop my local guy for anything shooting related before I shop anywhere else. If I need something I can just call and he will order it for me no money down, even a gun or something expensive. His prices on reloading stuff are a bit higher than the big box stores but less than what you would pay at an online place after shipping and hazmat.

[9.3X62AL]

TO35.....

I too like to trade with my local dealers whenever possible. I had 2 VERY GOOD retailers in my past hometown of Ridgecrest, and I miss that a lot.

San Diego was AWFUL. 'Nuff said.

Back "home" in Redlands/San Bernardino for now, and pickings are a bit lean, at least in part because the Sheriff's Office has historically and presently been ridiculously strict about propellant sales/permitting. I got wind of a DEEPLY-STOCKED dealership in the Pomona or Covina area that had a wide variety of powders in stock at all times. I need to abduct Buckshot and drag him with me to the place. I prefer root canals to driving close to Los Angeles, but a powder boutique of this sort justifies the drive stress. I am sorely in need of some RL-7 and AA-1680.

[FergusonTO35]

We now have a dedicated reloading shop in Richmond, about an hour from me. Happy coincidence, we may be moving closer to it as my wife now works in the same town.

[Good Cheer]

Aw, just load up the wadcutters and test them yourself.
The FBI agent that was dating my mom in the eighties thought hers were great.
They're for doing an ugly job real close. You push them hard enough they do the job.

[FergusonTO35]

According to gel tests on the pocket pistols and gear website, the sedate Federal Gold Medal wadcutter actually out penetrates the vaunted Speer Gold Dot 135 grain JHP and even the Remington FBI load when fired from a snub nose.

[tazman]

According to gel tests on the pocket pistols and gear website, the sedate Federal Gold Medal wadcutter actually out penetrates the vaunted Speer Gold Dot 135 grain JHP and even the Remington FBI load when fired from a snub nose.

That is why I use the 358432 in my snubbie. It shoots to point of aim and hits as hard as anything does in a short barreled 38 special.

[FergusonTO35]

Yes, not to mention the fact that with mild recoil you can actually make a follow up shot if needed. I'm not going to pretend I can shoot strong Buffalo Bore type loads in a snubby. An accurate wadcutter is the best choice for me and my modest shooting abilities.

Found an excellent load for the Lyman 35891 in my little 637. Try 3.1 grains Bullseye and a Federal small pistol primer under the 35891 sized to .358. According to my chronograph it clocks a very consistent consistentwith mild recoil and is very accurate.

[Outpost75]

I just re-read this thread and decided I would post some drawings of .38 Special Accurate bullets which are relevant to the OP to maybe jump start the discussion.

I have given up on hollow-point bullets in the .38 Special snubbies and in the .38 S&W and instead have changed over completely to blunt nosed solids having a meplat of about 0.7 of bullet diameter. The following designs are in Accurate's online catalog and can be tweaked in diameter for your gun and alloy, no waiting for a "group buy" or any of that nonsense. They are available NOW!

I load 2.5 grains of Bullseye in the .38 S&W for the S&W Model 32-1, and 3.5 grains of Bullseye in the .38 Special.

The 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 36-159H is standard pressure, with the two heavier bullets it is probably +P:

211645211646211647211648211649

[ikarus1]

my vote is a 358477 hollowpointed by Erik at hollowpointmold dot com, cast from something around 8 BHN and powdercoated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Biwb7vAYZfI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FYXO_WT1io&t=1031s

[opos]

Some years ago I was told the Remington 38+P Golden Saber is a really efficient S/D load.....I keep GP 100's in the house (357 mag) loaded with the Golden Saber...I get similar "practice" results from 5.5 grains of W231 or HP 38 and a 125 grain Remington SJHP bullet...I'm a believer that practice and bullet placement is the key...I don't shoot 357 mag because of flash and the proximity to neighbors...I do have a Smith 36 3" 5 shot revovler (old but solid) and I do shoot soft lead WC in it...I carry it on my premises (can't carry off the premises) in a pack I wear when in the garage, etc..doubt I'd ever have use for anything at more than 8 or 10 yards...I've never had to use either and hope I never will and I never spoke to anyone that was hit with either so anything about actual effeciency is pretty much conjecture.

[Walkingwolf]

I have stuck with wadcutters for decades, they are still my primary carry load in 38 spl. Mine are lighter than target wadcutters 138 grain, and moving slightly faster 1200fps.

[9.3X62AL]

I have stuck with wadcutters for decades, they are still my primary carry load in 38 spl. Mine are lighter than target wadcutters 138 grain, and moving slightly faster 1200fps.

"Slightly faster", indeed. Those would be kick-*** defense loads.

[trapper9260]

I always shop my local guy for anything shooting related before I shop anywhere else. If I need something I can just call and he will order it for me no money down, even a gun or something expensive. His prices on reloading stuff are a bit higher than the big box stores but less than what you would pay at an online place after shipping and hazmat.

I have a place like that also.I just call the guy and that is it. I have read this post and learn alot. Outpost you did a good job about explain about 38spl in 357. I did not know that ,for how you explain it made it easy for me to understand ,like your other post also. thank you. I also learn from others that post also.That is what I am on here for to learn and also if i did something that would help I will post it.