A tale of the Wondrous Comblain carbine .........................

[Buckshot]

............I suppose it was 12-15 years ago, probably a couple more then that but on one of the internet auction sites I wasn't paying much attention and happened to be the high bidder on a 1901 Remington 7mm RB and this Brazilian Comblain carbine. I already had a nice 1897 Rem RB in 7x57, so One of the Tuesday Burrito Shooters bought it for what I had in it. The Comblain was a bit different and it captured my attention.

As it was a carbine, it's small size and it's configuration wasn't something a person saw that often, Besides that it had a rather large bore. Anyone can have a 7mm but this Comblain was of an interestingly large bore diameter.

http://www.fototime.com/022CFD7381B30B6/standard.jpg

I called it my "Zenith" gun, after the TV of previous years with it's "Works in a drawer". This carbine had all it's works basicaly in one piece, with only one screw retaining it all in the action. On the side of the action you can see 3 screw heads. The uppermost screwhead was simply a keeper screw/lock for the action screw. This 'Lock' screw was added by Brazil after receiving them. The screw head under the 'Keeper' was the sole screw that the action pivoted on. The remaining screw head is for the extractor to pivot on.

http://www.fototime.com/7A12618D703BEC8/standard.jpg

If you pulled the keeper screw, then the one under it, the entire works (less the extractor) comes out the bottom of the action.

http://www.fototime.com/18284F083F19FFF/standard.jpg

Everything in this photo with the exception of the extractor (directly in front of the breech block) is an assembly, that pivots on one screw. Unusual for the times when primers didn't always fire, the hammer was shrouded so the action had to be 'Worked' to re-cock it for a 2nd try. If you look closely you can also see that the firing pin was a separate piece retained in the hammer via a tapered screw. A nice touch, for easy replacement.

Everything else was retained in the 'Leg' that extends downward. The breech block was NOT individually hinged via a screw, or a link (as was the Sharps) but is one piece with the leg. The trigger, trigger spring and combo hammer spring and hammer pivot are all retained in the single solid unit. The unusual hammer shroud is dovetailed into the rear of the breech block.

http://www.fototime.com/2071DDEDEC30B3B/standard.jpg

A view of the hammer and firing pin, with the firing pin retaining screw. The mainspring lever is shown 'Up', but normally is almost straight down to interact with the flat spring that powers it.

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The hammer shroud showing it's dovetail into the rear of the breechblock. The screw is there simply to tilt the assembly upwards for the photo.

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The screw that retains the hammer shroud in place.

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Hammer, firing pin & it's retaining screw, with the mainspring leg and it's screw removed.

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The complete firing assembly as it would be in the carbine. The piece to the right is a mainspring compressor I made. Without it the unit is almost impossible to put back together.

[Buckshot]

COMBLAIN CARBINE, PART II

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A view from the rear with the action closed.

I had a heckuva time trying to get a handle on the chamber configuration. Things finally began looking up when I found this website below. There is quite a lot of info there on the various Comblains and the countries that used them. Just digging for info on the Brazilian contract rifles/carbines is a bit confusing.

http://www.militaryrifles.com/

I finally figured out it was a Brazilian contract carbine, and chambered 11x42R. That was some helpful info. Digging further there were some pictures of various cartridges, of which the carbine cartridge seemed to be the smallest, but there were no helpfull dimensions like neck OD, length, or any for the rest of the case.

http://www.fototime.com/033102E9C8693A3/standard.jpg

I finally broke down (didn't take me long) to do a chamber cast. I was a bit flabbergasted to see that there was no neck!!!! :-). I at first thought that someone between me and the manufacturer had cobbled up a tool to recut the chamber. However it turned out that this was the way the chamber had been cut. I may not be a brainiac but I knew the case HAD to have a neck, if for nothing else then to hold a boolit. This chart at the mentioned website was a major help.

http://www.fototime.com/ADCBD2A1FEB44B5/standard.jpg

The cartridge labeled Co4 was the one I was looking for. And I was right, it HAD to have a neck to hold the boolit! The above info was from a cartridge collector, with quite a bit more info included.

http://www.fototime.com/34EA4235E0A4A6D/standard.jpg

I then set about to make some kind of case to hold the slug. I ended up originally using a 45-70, 43 Spanish, 45 Colt, and I forget what other size dies and Nazi war doctor tools to fabricate something that would chamber AND would hold a slug. The chamber case showed me that the least expensive way to go was to use the CBC 32 Guage shotshell case. People have suggested the 50-90 case but I wasn't going to spend that kind of money.

http://www.fototime.com/8322C4F45FFD71C/standard.jpg

My first efforts, which weren't too wonderfull, but it went bang and didn't hurt me. Kinda casual, but consideering the chamber they were going into ..................

http://www.fototime.com/FEB48295FDD2804/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/063900A27065387/standard.jpg

At some later date I was replacing the front struts on a '87 Chevy Celebrity and "Oh my goodness" the rods were 7/8" OD, and hard chromed. I saved them for some project and ended up being used for size dies for the Comblain. You for sure have to use carbide to cut the threads, but internally it cut very nice. The shell holder was kind of rough but it worked. I made a form tool and just kept cutting until the case looked right, and would chamber.

http://www.fototime.com/FB833F810B2C0FE/standard.jpg

Working up loads I used the Lyman 292gr 45 cal slug. The adhesive paper label was used on the initial firing to take up a bit of windage between the case and chamber. It allowed the case to expand evenly. Without it the expansion all on one side was a bit more then a person would like to see. These were the old CBC/Magtech shotshell cases that took a Berdan primer. I converted them to use 209 primers.

[Buckshot]

.................The cases are parted off in the lathe...........

http://www.fototime.com/8A2C7C8756BDCD9/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/EA42AD18D042DA2/standard.jpg

A 5/8" 5C collet is a bit large, and not wanting to order another I made an intermediate collet (Right). It worked out great as opening the 5/8" collet you can pull the case and ho-made collet out. Put in a new case and then re-seat it in the 5/8" collet without stopping the lathe.

I decided to made a 'For Real' shell holder. The CBC cases don't have much of a rim and the first shellholder was a trifle casual. I had some cases 'Pull Through'.

http://www.fototime.com/E1D357F48C4E7C5/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/E339CED7BDF8AAA/standard.jpg

Also while parting off in the lathe was fine for the initial case length, as they were left a bit long. Once they were fired they shortened up some. After that the occassional trimming was called for so I made up Lee type case trimmer setup.

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The case holder and lock ring...............

http://www.fototime.com/045D5B7B61D0FD6/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/D95566658BD3E6B/standard.jpg

The case length guage and the cutter. Since I was making one, I made it large enough to also trim the .577 Snider cases.

http://www.fototime.com/8F2D7613C6820E4/standard.jpg

Accuracy has improved a bit. It for sure liked the SR4759 load. The slug was the Lyman 457121 @ 292 grs.

Now I need to see about either making a mould or a swage die for slugs. There are a couple of oddities with the carbine. For one thing it's unusual in that it has a 16" twist which is a pistol twist for 45 caliber. Most modern 45 caliber rifles have a 18 or 20" twist. The other thing is that it has a .433" bore and a .454" groove. That gives it grooves a bit over .010" deep. I'd think a slug of 300 to 350grs would be the best.

http://www.fototime.com/382431F8E4B41EA/standard.jpg

The above is a photo from the previously mentioned website showing a later (like mine) Brazilian contract Comblain. The info under the photo says:

This Photo shows the shrouded hammer of the Model ___ (??) Brazilian Carbine ... similar to the rifle. Now why, I don't know, you will read everywhere that the Brazilian Comblains have two-piece tang and receiver (and they do) but this Brazilian Comblain, a carbine, is built with the expected short receiver but its tang is integral with the receiver (one piece!!). It also has its sling swivel mounted at the bottom of the lower buttstock, which makes sense given how short it is.

This example is just like my carbine. Short receiver and one piece with integral tang and the lower sling loop is mounted on the buttstock.

Other info from the website:

The following letter was received from Sr. Homero F. de Castro who is employed at the National Heritage Museum in Brazil and who has written articles on the various Brazilian Comblains:

Subj: Brazilian Comblain
Date: 98-01-13 22:52:01 EST
From: ahfc@centroin.com.br (Adler Homero F. de Castro)
Reply-to: ahfc@centroin.com.br
To: KDColoSpgs@AOL.com

Dear Sir,

Surfing in the net, I found your site, with information on the Brazilian Comblain, and I thought I should e-mail to your with some comments - I hope you will not find this an abuse of your patience. There are 6 diferent models of Comblain infantry Rifles in Brasil, as well two artillery Carbines and two Cadet rifles. The first infantry model, which I believe is the one you are refering to in your text is know as "model one" or Model 1873. The 1874 weapon (model 2) is a local variant, with a small modification in the trigger guard and in the stock.

I have never seen a brazilian weapon with a bronze receiver. Brasil made a lot of different orders of Comblain in Belgium, as the rifle was the offical army pattern from 1873 up to 1892 (some state police forces also used it, some of them well into the 20th century, but in this case the weapons were chambered for 7X57 mm smokeless cartridges). Here is a listing of some factories that sold Comblains to my country, but it should be noticed that this is not intended to be a complete listing:

E. D. Malherbe;
EM & L. Nagant;
Beuret Freres;
VCS CGH, Suhl (?);
G. Mordant;
J A & C (?);
Pirlot & Fresart

In my experience, the Nagant rifles and carbines are of the latter patterns (4, 5 and 6), so they are usually bought after 1885. Also, I wish to note that although the literature cited in your site always mentions the Comblain caliber as 11,4 mm, this is wrong. Only the model 5 rifle (of which only 10.000 were bought, in 1885), has a barrel of this caliber. Although the ball used had a caliber of 11,6 mm, the barrel was a standart 11 mm one - in fact it was a copy of the one used in the French Chassepot.

I wrote, some years ago, an article on the Brazilian comblains in a local magazinem, but I do not know if this could be of interest to you, as it is written in Portuguese. I hope this comments are of interest to you, if you have anything to say about them, please send a E-Mail to me.

Best wishes,

Adler H. F. de Castro
ahfc@centroin.com.br



.....................Buckshot

[JeffinNZ]

This is exactly the sort of post that changed my thinking about what I was prepared to own and shoot. Thanks to guys like Buckshot and many others here I feel comfortable with the idea of buying and shooting really oddball rifles because I know what can be achieved.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, the Comblain is a rather good black powder rifle. I would be very careful about the fit of firing-pin to block if I was to use smokeless loads, but modern primers are tougher than it was made for. I believe it was with Comblains that the Antwerp civic guard did rather well against Germans in August 1914.

A more durable tape for fireforming slightly undersize cases would be adhesive copper. I have some which was sold for making Tiffany-style glass lampshades, when the panels were edged with the stuff and soft soldered together. But now I buy it for protecting my potted strawberries from slugs. It doesn't poison the little blighters, unfortunately, but gives them a slight electric shock they don't like. There is a limit to how much you should treat cases this way, but I think you are well within it. It is probably a better option than the shotshells. I have some 24ga Magtech cases for a 24ga shotgun, but people report case failure when they are used to make even black powder Martini-Henry loads. Your bullet weights sound about right, particularly with the lightweight carbine.

[JSH]

Buckshot, a very interesting rifle. Not a lot of info on them out there. I have a bayonet for the comblain. Which in turn is how I did a little
researrch on the guns. Best article I found was by accident and how I figured out what I had. Picked up a shotgun news to read in the goose blind some years back and ran across the article with a picture of the bayonet.
I believe they are made of iron rather than steel according to the article.

[bruce drake]

great thread! your articles when you publish are worth more than many shooting magazine articles!

A friend of mine has a trapdoor receiver laying in a drawer that may become a project rifle in a few years. You inspire us to think deep thoughts some days!

[Bulldogger]

A very well-written and informative post Buckshot, many thanks for the details and great pictures!
Bulldogger

[Ballistics in Scotland]

great thread! your articles when you publish are worth more than many shooting magazine articles!

A friend of mine has a trapdoor receiver laying in a drawer that may become a project rifle in a few years. You inspire us to think deep thoughts some days!

Then S&S Firearms for parts should be worth knowing about, if he doesn't already.

http://www.ssfirearms.com/categories.asp?cat=162

[nagantguy]

Great post, I learned about a historic rifle I've never heard about before and you've inspired me to do a rather daunting gunsmithing task I've been putting off!

[skeet1]

Buckshot,
I am so impressed with you project, very interesting and great results.

In looking at your chamber cast it appears that the rifling goes right to the slope of the bottle neck. When you fire you cartridges does it leave rifling marks on the neck? I guess I don't understand, do you have to shoot undersized boolits to make up the difference in the neck thickness or maybe a heel type of boolit? Just wondering.

Ken

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Great post, I learned about a historic rifle I've never heard about before and you've inspired me to do a rather daunting gunsmithing task I've been putting off!

For the amateur putting-off is a very valuable skill. The professional gunsmith has to work to a deadline when the customer appears. Some deadlines are longer than others, but they are always there. The amateur can consider his project for months or years, till some piece of knowledge, skill, equipment, courage or motivation comes in. Sometimes I wish we could see the pausing and considering that went into the projects we see or post here.

[Billthomas]

I've had a Comblain for a while, the data available is scant, but one article explained that chamber, seems it was cut that way to assure the release of the bullet with out stripping off the paper patch. BT

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,
I am so impressed with you project, very interesting and great results.

In looking at your chamber cast it appears that the rifling goes right to the slope of the bottle neck. When you fire you cartridges does it leave rifling marks on the neck? I guess I don't understand, do you have to shoot undersized boolits to make up the difference in the neck thickness or maybe a heel type of boolit? Just wondering.

Ken

Ken,

I made the cases short enough so that they don't intrude into the beginning of the rifling. I've used 2 different boolits to date in the Comblain. They Lyman 292gr mentioned and the second was a Lee 6 cavity GB for a FNPB of 350 grs weight. The Lyman barely drops at .459", but the GB design drops at .462" from my mould. Both designs are seated into the case so as to put their noses up against the lands. I'll also mention I've never had any leading to speak of, and the most senior cases have 4 firings apiece. To me it is amazing they've lasted with the large amount of expansion they get at firing, and the great amount of re-sizing that follows.

And to all others that have commented, I appreciate it. And if you DO get involved in something or other because of it it's really not my fault! :-)

.................Buckshot

[Southern Son]

Buckshot,
Threads like this are the reason that I come to Cast Boolits. I have recently bought a lathe myself and only wish I knew what I as doing, but practice is fun and I am learning. Thanks for putting this up.

On the subject of the Comblain, when I was shooting BPCR, one of the guys involved and his wife were shooting them. He is a gunsmith (and a good one) and was quite proud of his Comblain, they were different, pretty, and shot well. But he did look at me rather nasty when I suggested that they looked like a pregnant teenage Hiwall.

[scaevola]

Interesting rifle and an informative thread. Thanks for sharing.

[Buckshot]

............The thing that is so amazing to me besides the design, and this is shared by all of them produced before the 1890's is that they did not have anything (tools) besides hardened high carbon steel, which had been known for decades. High speed steel was unknown. The level of workmanship is a wonderment by itself. I can only think they did it very slowly, and with lots of collant flooding the tools, as they did their work. In these later days with our knowledge of speeds, feeds, and advanced tooling, let along knowledge of alloys, we're really not producing things (firearms, or other machined artifacts) to a much higher level of individual craftsmanship.

We can make the parts much faster with carbide tooling and much higher rotational speeds, and heavier cuts these days aided by digital and/or computer controlled machines, but our quality isn't much better. All you have to do is to consider a 1894 Krag, or most any German or Austrian manufactured firearm. Consider it's age, the machines and the tooling they had and it is a purely humbling thing to consider. Previous to that it as a file in the hands of a human creating somthting they envisioned in their mind. They took a hunk of iron and turned it into a usable artifact.

Nowadays you have a guy who writes some code, a tool setter who loads the various tools into a computer controlled machine, and an operator who does nothing except stand there with a finger poised over the Red STOP button in case something sounds weird. Other then that, the machine does it all.

To me, knowing a bit about using manual machine tools, I look at the mass produced firearms made from the 1830's onward with nothing but abject admiration for the people involved in the process. It's pure amazement to me.

................Buckshot

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, and investment casting, spark erosion... What surprises me though, is that although machining is so much easier with CNC controlled machines, carbide cutting tools etc., manufacturers are so much more reluctant to do it now. I think production accountants must have the sort of seizure oil won't prevent, when they see the words "milled steel".

I think they did a lot more with drop-forging equipment in the nineteenth century. The large steam-hammers could forge guns, propeller shafts etc. weighing many tons. One at Woolwich Arsenal was equivalent to a falling mass of 4000 tons, and yet could be adjusted to crack a nut without crushing it.

[Artful]

Excellent posting - makes me want to look for one!

[Hamish]

It's mighty good to see you post, and what a doozy!

[oldphardt]

Buckshot, I seem to have a barreled action like your Cambian - same model. Mine is missing the mainspring and extractor. Where can I get critical dimensions for these 2 parts? I am trying to get this one going for a friend. Just do not know where I will ever get wood and fittings at a reasonable cost. A complete one sold on GunAuction for about $395 so there is no real value in these pieces and therefore not worth sinking much into them.
Dennis::Pismo

[Frank46]

Buckshot, outside of the one you wrote about I have only seen one in real life. And that after almost 40 years fooling around with firearms. Frank

[elk hunter]

Buckshot,

Excellent post, the kind that I like to read.

It appears we have much in common.

Old guns and old men seem to go together.

Keep up the good work.

[sharps4590]

Absolutely outstanding thread and work. Very well done, sir! I can only admire and envy those with that kind of machine skills.

[marlinman93]

One of my big regrets is selling a gorgeous Comblain Rook Rifle years ago. It was a very small little handy rifle, chambered in the .380 Rook caliber. I decided I needed another gun more, so sold the little Comblain. I still regret letting it go!

[Good Cheer]

That's awesome. Are you thinking yet about turning some "ever lasting" brass with a straight inside bore? Or would it be worth while?

[Bigslug]

I then set about to make some kind of case to hold the slug. I ended up originally using a 45-70, 43 Spanish, 45 Colt, and I forget what other size dies and Nazi war doctor tools to fabricate something that would chamber AND would hold a slug.

ROFLMAO! He owns all these different guns so that he can cobble together loading equipment for the REALLY different ones when they come along.:mrgreen:

So. . .would it be fair to say you work in the Comblaint Department, Comblaining endlessly?

[Buckshot]

That's awesome. Are you thinking yet about turning some "ever lasting" brass with a straight inside bore? Or would it be worth while?

..........Nope. With the price of plain 360 alloy brass (.750" OD) running close to $80.00 for 6', I think I'll stick with the Mag Tech (CBC) 32 ga shotshells. Heck, with the neck expanding the way it does in that wierda** chamber I doubt it'd last one firing being turned from solid. I have a batch of those MagTech cases that were fired 4 times before I decided to anneal them. Thought that was darn good. Years ago me and 2 other guys bought a bunch of Red Willow Armory turned brass 577-450 cases. The other 2 guys had some cases that had split necks when they got them, brand new! Red Willow was very good and replaced them all, but annealing after every firing is just too much work. I was told years ago that 50-70 brass could be used in my carbine by a guy who had or has 6 Comblains. Once again at that time drawn brass 50-70 cases weren't being given away.

................Buckshot

[M-Tecs]

Thanks for the detailed write up.

[scattershot]

Wow! Nice work! Betcha can't find THAT ammo at WalMart!

[oldphardt]

Here are some photos of the Comblain action that I will be working 'someday' after I finish the '86 and sell it off.

[Buckshot]

Here are some photos of the Comblain action that I will be working 'someday' after I finish the '86 and sell it off.

..............Dennis, It appears that your action has the removable bottom tang? At least I'm assuming so since it has that extra screw on the bottom rear of the action. From what I've read the separate tang was the most common version. It does look like it has the 3 screws in the forward bottom of the action. The bottom 2 for the lever, and the extractor with the 3rd one above the most forward screw would be the Brazilian added, 'Retainer Screw'. The bayonet lug and bar, and the front sight look the same as mine.

Your action is stamped on the right side with the maker's name and serial number. Mine is marked on the left side. Made by, and stamped in one line is EM & L Nagant. Below that is: A Liege. The only number, 98, is stamped directly under that and on almost all the parts. Of course there are also the usual assortment of viewer's, inspectors, and proof marks stamped in various places on assorted parts. What does the bore look like? If you don't have any CerroSafe I'd think you could get a good enough idea of the chamber with a simple wax casting.

If the bore is toast and you're considering rebarreling it, it wouldn't make any difference if the the wood was authentic or not. Since it's a 2 piece stock a buttstock and forend from some levergun, shotgun or maybe a Martini might be made to fit? In any event, I have a few orders to get out and then I'll try to get those measurements for you.

................Buckshot

[Ibgreen]

I have a bunch of 32ga Berdan ready magtech shells (I was going to trim down for my Spencer 56-50).

[Buckshot]

I have a bunch of 32ga Berdan ready magtech shells (I was going to trim down for my Spencer 56-50).

............They're easy to shorten and also convert to the 209 shotshell primer (if you have, or have access to a lathe). When CBC/Magtech came out with the new LP primed cases Graf & Son was blowing out the older Berdan primed stock, so I bought several boxes of it. Ditto the 24 ga I use for the .577 Snider. I still have several hundred of the #56 Berdan primers, but it seemed those things would pierce if you looked at them sternly :-)

...............Buckshot