Who can rebarrel an Enfield No 4 Mk I?

[Blackwater]

I've got the hots again to finish making up a sporter out of the old No. 4 I have that has a .317" trombone shaped bore. Needs a new barrel terribly badly, but at least I got it cheap initially. Need some advice, too. I have a .312" mold, but have many more std. .30 cals. It's my understanding that I can just get a std. .30 cal. expander ball, and use those, but what are the chambering reamers like? I don't want an overly large chamber neck, lest it work the brass harder than necessary. Does anyone have a .30/.303 chamber reamer?

And most military guns in this caliber have rather generous chambers, which also reduce brass life. Are tighter toleranced reamers available? I'm a bit of a prig when it comes to these things, because in my experience, they really do matter.

Anyone got suggestions for me? It's to become my version of an old British "sporting rifle" such as might have been used in the early to mid days of the African PH's. Scope mounting suggestions would be appreciated, too. It seems I really NEED a good scope these days, but it'll likely be a straight 4x, or maybe even a 3x if I can find one.

I've never done any work on one of these before, other than playing with the one I have a bit. The finish is rough, and I think I'll likely stipple some of it, just for practice, and out of curiosity about how it'd look. Anyone done this to one of these rifles?

Lot of questions, I know, and thanks for the patience in any answers you provide.

[hanover67]

I have a No. 1 Mark III SMLE that I shoot in informal matches. I've wondered about re-barreling it because the current barrel looks rough as a cobb inside. But, it shoots great with either Hornady 150gr .312 jacketed or .313 cast boolits. And, I have no idea where to get a new replacement barrel. My barrel slugs at .313". Yes, my rifle does have a "generous" chamber, so I neck size brass after the first firing. Most chambers are too long, so neck sizing cuts down on stretching which ultimately results in case head separation. I saw an article somewhere about putting a rubber O-ring around the case head in front of the rim to center the case in the chamber for the first firing, then only neck sizing thereafter. I have not tried that yet.

I suppose you could have a custom barrel made up by a gunsmith who could use any reamer you wanted. I recently re-barreled a Winchester Model 70 .223 match rifle with a Hart stainless barrel and it cost me $800. The gunsmith and I discussed which reamer to use - there were several to choose from. I went with his recommendation that a certain reamer seemed to shoot heavy boolits best. I'm sure there is some choice with the .303.

As far as scope mounts are concerned, I would call Brownell's and ask their technicians about them. Also see the Amazon listing for the ATI .303 Enfield # 4, MkI/Mk2/Mk5 scope mount. There were a lot of good reviews of that scope mount. It sounds like it is very solid and easy to install.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Here are a couple of excellent threads on sporterizing Lee-Enfields:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?246222-A-Lee-Enfield-Sporting-rifle&highlight=lee-enfield

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?270931-The-400-Lee-Speed-project-rifle-(and-friend)&highlight=lee-enfield

Military Lee-Enfields often had a wide chamber neck and shoulder, with a rather rounded shape, because great importance was attached to not being easily jammed by dirt. But modern reamer-makers work to SAAMI dimensions, which aren't by any means a benchrest chamber, but much the same as most others used in sporting rifles.

http://saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/303%20British.pdf

I believe they would accommodate any bullet up to the original 215gr. round nose, for I don't think this was ever changed in service. A shorter throat would be a special order job which the main reamer makers could all do for you, but it isn't as important as many think. This picture is of two 6.5mm.. bullets, a commercial clone of the Swedish military bullet and a Hornady 160gr. round-nose. They are held in a caliper opened to exactly the land diameter of my Mannlicher-Schoenauer, and they contact it at the same point on the bullet.

149356

While most gunsmiths can install and chamber a barrel, getting a .303 barrel blank is likely to be difficult. Lothar Walther list it among their European system blanks, and I don't know how hard it might be to get in the US. There are a couple of alternatives. TJ's make a chrome-moly liner for 7.65 Luger, available from www.trackofthewolf.com (http://www.trackofthewolf.com) , which should be just right. Also there were very high quality heavy target .303 barrels by various makers which could be turned down for a sporter, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone in the US is sitting on a stock of these.

The bolt shape and 60 degree turn of the Lee-Enfield permits a rather low scope, but the need to pass the bolt head through the receiver bridge for removal means that a side mount must be used. Parker-Hale ones are discontinued and hard to find, but may turn up on eBay from time to time. Some others are unnecessarily high and don't look very rigid. I would be inclined to fit a front base to the receiver ring like any other rifle, and make a side mounted rear mount with windage adjustment, like the Redfield.

[Herb in Pa]

http://criterionbarrels.com/products

I had my 1917 Eddystone rebarreled with a Criterion and am very pleased. My gunsmith said it was within .005 of a perfect index.............

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, since it is to be a sporter and it's not a question of restoring it to a military as-issued, why not rebarrel to .30--40 Krag? For the sake of practicality you need to go with a rimmed cartridge, and the .30-40 should work through your action with little or no alteration and is compatible with your existing bolt face and extractor. You could use your existing .30 molds, and there isn't much to choose from between the .30-40 and .303 ballistically. Barrels in .308 are plentiful and will involve less of a search than finding one in .311.

If it's just got to be a .30/.303 then it's not too difficult for any gunsmith possessing a lathe grinding attachment to take .002 or .003 off the .311 diameter of the throat portion of a .303 reamer, or for a reamer manufacturer to do the same and give you that tight, custom chamber. It is more difficult to find a .311 barrel, but you could possibly cut off the thread shank of a 7.65x53 mm Mauser barrel, rethread and rechamber, a 1909 Argentine barrel being a possible candidate.

[Mauser48]

The cmp could probably re barrel it.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Might look at McGowen precision barrels, they have barrels for Mosin Nagants and blanks that are sized for 7.62x54R & 7.62x39 which is right in the ball park. I haven't worked with them but I did pick up a used Savage in .308 on Cabelas gun rack with a McGowen bull barrel on it and it did look very nicely made at least.

[Outpost75]

On my .30/.303 I did not regrind the throat on the reamer, but used a normal SAAMI-dimensioned .303 British reamer, in a US 4-groove government form ten-inch twist barrel, set back and turned down from a pull-off Winchester Model 70 target in .30-'06. My No.4 shoots well with either standard .303 factory loads or handloads with .308" bullets with no hard bolt lift or other pressure signs. I cast the NOE version of #314299 50-50 wheelweights and linotype, size to .312" and load 30 grains of RL7, 3031, 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget.

[screwcutter]

Shilen, Krieger & Pacnor make .311 barrels. I have done my own Enfield barrel work because have not found a gunsmith that will work on them.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

On my .30/.303 I did not regrind the throat on the reamer, but used a normal SAAMI-dimensioned .303 British reamer, in a US 4-groove government form ten-inch twist barrel, set back and turned down from a pull-off Winchester Model 70 target in .30-'06. My No.4 shoots well with either standard .303 factory loads or handloads with .308" bullets with no hard bolt lift or other pressure signs. I cast the NOE version of #314299 50-50 wheelweights and linotype, size to .312" and load 30 grains of RL7, 3031, 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget.

I've seen that done, as successfully as the average sporting rifle is likely to be, with both the reamer pilot and the expander button of the loading dies slightly reduced with a fine diamond hone in the lathe. .004in. of extra neck clearance in the chamber won't do any discernible harm to accuracy or case life.

It is a pity gunsmiths are reluctant to work on the P14 and M1917 Enfields. People will tell you that the square thread is difficult to cut in the lathe, but that isn't true as long as you cut away the rear side of the cutting tool to avoid contact. That has to be done differently for different thread diameters. But as long as either the major or minor diameter of the thread is correct, you don't get the wobbliness that results from cutting a V-thread too deep.

Incidentally there is a 1in. 14tpi Unified National Special thread, for which dies are available on eBay. For anybody who isn't confident of his ability to cut a smooth thread on the lathe, that will clean it up nicely. It is a 60 degree thread and the Enfield has the 55 degree Whitworth form. but American gunsmiths regularly (though I can't think why) rebarrel Mausers with 60 degree threads. I have seen a Martini-Henry (same thread) very satisfactorily rebarrelled with the die alone. That man threaded a 1in. brass rod with the die to act as a guide, used a primitive wood lathe to turn the end into a spigot which aligned it with the bore, and then threaded steel.

[John 242]

http://criterionbarrels.com/products

I had my 1917 Eddystone rebarreled with a Criterion and am very pleased. My gunsmith said it was within .005 of a perfect index.............


CBI lists several links to retailers selling No.4 barrels, with two being in the US and a couple in Canada and elsewhere.
http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels/lee-enfield
(http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels/lee-enfield)
The asking price for a No.4 barrel is $343 and does not include installation. According to the same site, your 1917 barrel would run $189 plus installation.
http://www.dgrguns.com/0-main-page-barrels.htm
(http://www.dgrguns.com/0-main-page-barrels.htm)
Don't know what CBI would charge directly, but you have to assume there would some sort of wait involved.

CBI lists a version that uses washers for indexing the barrel, if you don't have access to a lathe.
You could have a competent gunsmith install/index it to your receiver for about $100.

Kind of a lot of cheese to spend on a sporter project.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I wouldn't trust thin washers to index a barrel, unless the barrel is much larger in diameter than its threads. Otherwise it is liable to stretch and spit out a thin washer. I think there would have to be a series of them supplied, with the barrel shoulder say a tenth of an inch further forward than usual, and the washers a few thousandths thicker and thinner. I would much prefer to just have a barrel which was round, all round, and cut the extractor slot and any dovetails after temporary tightening up.

[John 242]

Shilen, Krieger & Pacnor make .311 barrels. I have done my own Enfield barrel work because have not found a gunsmith that will work on them.

Shilen does have a .311 barrel. Blanks are $165 and turned to a contour they run about $200. Unfortunately, they don't do barrel threading for Enfields. Figure another $150+ for threading and chambering.

Just for fun I went to Kreiger's website and looked at ordering a pre-contoured .311 barrel. They would want $365 for it, and it would still need to be threaded.

Not trying to be a negative Nancy, but just trying to put some real world numbers into the mix, here.

I've put Williams scope mounts one several No.1 and No.4 Enfields. As of yet, I haven't been pleased with the results. Even with the medium rings, the scope is VERY high above the bore. You end up with a chin weld, not a cheek weld. Shooting this mess from the bench is unpleasant and I've been ringed by scopes twice. Maybe with a cheek rest or a stock meant to be used with scopes, this wouldn't be so bad, but....

The ATI mount requires no gunsmithing, but I have my doubts to its long term durability. I haven't tried it, though. I've heard complaints about them popping lose, but I have no personal experience.

[John 242]

I wouldn't trust thin washers to index a barrel, unless the barrel is much larger in diameter than its threads. Otherwise it is liable to stretch and spit out a thin washer. I think there would have to be a series of them supplied, with the barrel shoulder say a tenth of an inch further forward than usual, and the washers a few thousandths thicker and thinner. I would much prefer to just have a barrel which was round, all round, and cut the extractor slot and any dovetails after temporary tightening up.

Agree with all of the above. Especially for what the OP is trying to do, which is to make a sporter and not keep the original barrel contour. No sights to line up.

[screwcutter]

149400Here is a mount I made up because I didn't like what was available.
mr

[John 242]

Screwcutter, is that zinc parkerizing? Looks good.

[Frank46]

Or you could send it to JES and get it rebored and rifled to the 37 rimmed. Which is the 303 british case necked up to 375 caliber with no other changes. Shoot either jacketed bullets or cast boolits. For about $250 you get a new bore and return shipment. Frank

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is quite a good idea if you don't mind a slightly more curved trajectory. It is a pity in a way, for the only cartridge other than .303 for which I know of antique Lee-Enfield rifles being originally chambered was the rather similar .375-2½in. Nitro-Express, and who with soul wouldn't want to have a rifle called a nitro-express? But needs after-market or .405WCF brass, even .30-40 isn't long enough, and with smokeless you don't need that little bit of extra case capacity.

[andremajic]

It sounds like you have a good candidate for a Delisle Carbine in 45 ACP.

http://www.specialinterestarms.com/index.php?page=delisle


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti66RjZWTp0&feature=youtu.be

[Blackwater]

Wow! This is exactly why I haven't pulled the trigger on this little project for years, now. So many options, so many obstacles in each direction. The rebore suggestion got me to thinking about that once again. I kind'a want this to be a cast only proposition, and for hunting, so that kind'a dovetails with my very general goals, other than having it look similar to the old Brit sporting rifles. Since most of the places I have to hunt now are relatively close range propositions, the .375's trajectory wouldn't be a problem, and I've long wanted a .38/55 but have never found one I'd come off the hip for, so it'd kind'a fulfill that old goal as well, just with a bit different shaped brass case.

Thanks for all the help. Very much appreciated, and all posts have been golden to me. Does anyone know who has the tooling, etc. to fit barrels to the old Brit actions now? I just want to make sure I leave behind some of my handiwork for my grandboys, and this would achieve several other ends as well, like their coming to appreciate "old rifles" that are considered by most to be "obsolete," and yet, have done and continue to do some awfully respectable things in the hands of good men. The old SMLE and No. 4's are very much a great representation of that, and if I can make them feel and balance and handle like some of those old Brit sporting rifles, I think getting them to appreciate some of the "old stuff" will be a cake walk. They're both pretty sharp, and how could they miss something as plain as THAT? The smoothness and quick follow up shots with that old action should make them re-think their love of the more glitzy "modern" stuff. Kids today NEED their concepts and horizons broadened, and there's nothing like good shooting guns to do that, especially when they kind'a buck the trends, such as the "tactical" rifle craze.

Still looking for a 'smith who can fit the barrel, if that's how I decide to go, and again, thanks for all the advice, and particular thanks for those refs and links to Von Gruff's wonderful work on his. I'm thinking I'll likely have to make my own scope mount, but that's another story for another thread. I think I can do that much, at least, with what I have to work with here.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A useful aid to making your own scope bases would be a laser boresighter duplicating the .303 cartridge. They are available cheaply on eBay.

[screwcutter]

Blackwater,
I am one of the nuttier Enfield guys; I wish I could do the barrel work for you, the legal aspects. WWW searching should turn up some one to help you. A custom reamer to fit available brass would be a good idea since you are considering a .30 cal barrel. Let me know if you want details/ideas on the scope mount.
John,
I’m not sure, I had a local guy park it.
mr

[Blackwater]

Thanks, Screwcutter. I may wind up consulting with you. Do you make a mount for the No. 4 that would let me mount a scope low? I've just always wanted one of those old "British Sporting Rifles" on an Enfield action, and have had my #4 for close to 15 years now, and haven't found a 'smith nearby who'd tackle it. Now, I figure it's now or never in pulling the trigger on it, finally. I've only handled a few of those old BSR's, and every time I have, I got that, "Yeah! I could SHOOT this thing!" feeling, and as Gene Hill advised in picking shotguns, when you find a gun like that, just hand the guy behind the counter a check, and let HIM fill it out.

Goodsteel and I have made a trade on a gun, now, which is a big relief to me, actually, and should do exactly the kind of thing I want to do, which is to sally forth with a mental image of myself being an heir to what some of those old Brit white hunters in Africa's early days did with those rifles. Not many lions here in the swamp, but an old man's imagination can do wonders IF he's just foolish enough! HAR! It'll also be a good training aid to the grandboys to maybe not be quite so taken in by the glossy magazines and the glitzy but infinitely "cheaper" stuff they call rifles now.

I know it's foolish, really, but just don't care. I grew up reading about the adventures of those old African WH's, and I just WANT a gun reminiscent of what they might have used. It's not whether I get a deer any more, but HOW I go about doing it that matters these days, and I'm happy as a lark! May do some stock work on it, to get it to suit me just right, and have a 'smith friend over in SC who has a "pattern stock" he's been neglecting for years now, that's kind'a like a cross between the old BSR's with a little German influence (thin, schnabble forend) and I'll be doing my best to get him off the pot and finish it so he can have some pantographed out as semi-fins. If not, may have to pay him a visit and put in a little work on it myself! He and I think enough alike that I think we can achieve something passable.

I guess a real gun nut is never truly satisfied unless he's working on a project of SOME kind? Sure seems to work that way with me, at least.

[HollowPoint]

I re-barreled my own No.4 Mk1. I'd never done a re-barreling job before so I spent alot of time researching it before diving in.

I'm neither a gunsmith nor a machinist but I'd always wanted to try. All I had to work with at the time was a cheap little Grizzly 9x19 metal lathe. I looked for the cheapest 303 barrel I could find but the cheapest ones were way out of my budget range for this project.

In the end I went with a 308 bore'd barrel cause they were the cheapest of all; price-wise, not quality-wise. I turned down the neck of the 303 reamer I'd bought and just re-chambered my barrel to 30-303 caliber.

Because of my inexperience in turning a barrel tang with a shoulder that matched the factory Enfield shoulder and head spacing, I decided to use the Savage-Barrel-Nut method. This made it child's-play to get the correct head spacing. The down side was that I also had to make a barrel nut; which wasn't all that hard. It was a twenty-eight inch pre-turned barrel that I bought so I used the two inch section that I cut off of this barrel as the metal stock to make the barrel nut.

When I finished and tested my new barrel, I found that it wasn't any better or worse than the accuracy I had been getting out of this same Enfield action. This was good news to me because, when I did this re-barreling job -even though I did my research- I knew next to nothing about such thing as far as hands on experience. At the time, I did't even use a Range-Rod to index or center off my bore. I indexed on the outside diameter of my barrel. I'm just lucky it turned out as good as it did.

Now that I know more about re-barreling, I've had my eye out for another 30 caliber barrel to do it all over again the correct way.

HollowPoint

[leebuilder]

Hi Blackwater. I have rebarreled many, enfields, no1s and no4s. I learned by trial and terror, started by rechambering no1s and no4s mainly to reset the headspace in hopes of improving accuracy. So far havent had any complaints. Built a few 22, 17hmrs and 45acp on the no4 action. Made all my own tools and gauges.
any question please ask.
be well

[Blackwater]

Thanks to you all, gentlemen. It's amazing how all the guys who love the old Brit Enfields seem to be real "gentlemen" in the finest old English sense of the word. That's something that's really hard to find these days. We all know guys like you are out there, but you just don't get any press or attract any attention, which is probably good judgment on your part, of course, but it's really great to see guys of the old school still plugging along doing what's now considered "strange" stuff still.

I've done pretty much all types of gunsmithing for myself and friends for many years, but rebarreling was the one thing I've never really had the chance to do, and I've always declined to try to do it by hand, the old "country boy" way. I've had a few friends who've done it, but have just declined to try for myself.

I finally got around to making myself my little version of a 1930's 1903 Springfield sporter with what I'm pretty proud of for a stock. It's not quite what I thought I wanted, but with these things, you reach a point where the demands on your time and resources reaches a point where you call it "done." That stock is what got me a job doing some part time gunsmithing at a local shop under an Ackley trained and really good 'smith. He was supposed to have been dead 20 years ago, but is still plugging along over in SC, and we talk often on the phone. Went to visit with him a couple of months back, and wound up with one of his VERY nice Mauser sporters that I'd wanted an example of for so very long - since I was about 13, really.

All the off the shelf sporters today just leave me kind'a unfulfilled, but guns like this, if they don't please anyone else in the whole world, have come to please me immensely. That old Springfield I did is awaiting my sending it off for some checkering. The neuropathy in my hands now kind'a precluded my doing it myself. I have the tools, but in my old age have FINALLY succumbed to my better judgment in such things. Too much work and sweat in that old stock to muss it up with my frailties now. C'est la' vie, I guess?

Now that I've got that nice #4 in process and on the way, I may well get that #4 of mine rebarreled and restocked and generally cleaned up, too. After all, I DO have two grandsons! Best excuse I've had for this kind of thing in my life, and it'd be just foolish to waste a good excuse like that to spend a little play money, right? It'll take longer than ever now, but maybe being occupied will keep me out'a trouble, and maybe even out'a jail? HAR! Getting crotchety really frees a man up from a lot of "normal" restraints, and I'm enjoying the heck out of it! I highly recommend it to anyone who'll employ their sensibilities thusly. Just "good, clean fun!"

[leadman]

The CMP will only work on US military arms last I read.