Winchester 94 Rebarreled for Accuracy?

[KLR]

I have a Win 94AE in 30-30 that I really like, but I really hate the 4" groups. I've tried a number of loads in cast and jacketed, loosened the barrel bands, 4 lb trigger, and shot it naked forward of the receiver. It's now apart for tang/forearm bedding.

Looking at that thin barrel I wonder if that's not the problem.

So, has anyone fit a heavier barrel to a 94? Not a bull barrel, but another .060"? If I cut the mag tube down to half length it wouldn't be much heavier either.

Please don't bother to tell me that 4" is minute-of-deer and that millions have been happy with their 94. I want a consistent 2" max rifle.

Please don't bother telling me that I'm wasting my time and money. I am. This is a hobby and I enjoy this kind of stuff.

Before I try a new barrel the next steps will be to finish the bedding. If that doesn't work then chop the barrel down a half inch at a time and see if the bullet flinging stops.

So, anyone have a "heavier" barrel 94?

[bosterr]

How about just cut a new crown?

[KLR]

How about just cut a new crown?

Yes, that's on the list before the barrel chopping starts.

[OnHoPr]

That's a drastic measure. Is there a number of threads you have started for your problem thirty thirty. I don't want to ask in a disparaging way, but in a helpful way. I seen you been here a while. Do you have a decent scope. Is it mounted well. Do you shoot off a good bench. Have you done a casting of bore & chamber. What does your brass look like after firing. What size are your boolits. What boolit. What alloys. Have you tried the slower powders up to 4350. Does it have at least a fair trigger. Do you have other rifles that produce 1 MOA. Do you shoot a 3 shot group from a cold fresh fouled barrel. Have you checked out the crown. etc, etc. It should be able to get a couple of inches @ 100 yd with a scoped bench rested 3 shot group.

[KLR]

That's a drastic measure. Is there a number of threads you have started for your problem thirty thirty. I don't want to ask in a disparaging way, but in a helpful way.

Yes, it's drastic, but if you look at many comments around the net there are many guys who report that they have a 4" 94. Then look at the skinny barrel and dovetail cut for the rear sight and it makes me wonder.

I seen you been here a while. Do you have a decent scope.

I've tried several. A Nikon Monarch was likely the most expensive. It's back on my 7600 where it still shoots a little over an inch.

Is it mounted well.

I think so. I checked several times.

Do you shoot off a good bench.

Good enough, I think. I can shoot into an inch with other rifles.

Have you done a casting of bore & chamber.

Yes. Spent several months experimenting and tweaked my mold and sizing die to have the proper fit.

What does your brass look like after firing.

I don't see anything unusual. I'm using Rem brass and prepping it carefully.

What size are your boolits. What boolit. What alloys.

I spent several months with several different bullets, sizes, velocities. I had a few good groups, but in the end I think it was just random luck. I have now moved on to jacketed and they shoot about the same as the Lee 170gr that I tweaked to fit my rifle. I've tried 5 different jacketed bullets from 100 to 170 gr.

Have you tried the slower powders up to 4350.

4064 was the slowest.


Does it have at least a fair trigger.

4 lbs and crisp.

Do you have other rifles that produce 1 MOA.

Rem 7600 is right about there. Savage 11 in 358 Win is easily there with my best slightly under .5 moa. Just got a Savage .22 and can shoot .3-.5 @50 yds consistently. It's not me.

Do you shoot a 3 shot group from a cold fresh fouled barrel.

I've tried it any way you can name. My best 3 shot group with my tweaked Lee 170 gr bullet was .3" of an inch at 55 yds. But that was when I learned that 3 shot groups don't mean much.

Have you checked out the crown. etc, etc.

With a q-tip and a magnifying glass.

It should be able to get a couple of inches @ 100 yd with a scoped bench rested 3 shot group.

Absolutely.




I've embedded my response in your post. Thanks for the help.

[bob208]

some things to try. first get rifle fore arm and mag. tube holder or do the button mag. do away with the barrel bands. they play havoc with the barrel harmonics. if that does not get you all the way there. you could turn the barrel down to straight. then make a sleeve to go over it to bring up the barrel weight.


but first try shooting the gun with out forearm and mag tube.

[KLR]

some things to try. first get rifle fore arm and mag. tube holder or do the button mag. do away with the barrel bands. they play havoc with the barrel harmonics. if that does not get you all the way there. you could turn the barrel down to straight. then make a sleeve to go over it to bring up the barrel weight.


but first try shooting the gun with out forearm and mag tube.

The barrel sleeve sounds interesting. I'll have to look up the button mag too.

I've shot it without the forearm and mag tube. Several times with several different bullets, powders, charges, etc. No difference.

[TXGunNut]

Re-barreling may be indicated, not sure if I'd have JES re-bore to 38-55 or order up a new one in 30-30. With your efforts I'd expect 2" groups, not 4". I generally have no problems getting down to 3" with aperture or tang sights with most 94's and minimal tuning.

[Artful]

Sleeving is interesting and does increase accuracy - I remember the NRA rifleman magazine took a springfield barrel shot it for accuracy then put
a thin walled tube over it and filled void after centering with epoxy and recorded an increase in accuracy.

Other thought is change to a Octagon barrel style.

[OnHoPr]

I've embedded my response in your post. Thanks for the help.

Just asking, sometimes there is an overlook because so many other parables are being considered.

This site does have considerable intelligence with cast boolits and levers, so then the question is ?WHY? if all those things have been looked into. Do you think a lapping or fire lapping might solve the problem, I know sometimes it might not be great for jacketed, but cast boolits can be made to fit. Have you thought about the scope mounting screws location on the receiver. If they are mis aligned a bit they might be putting undue torque twist on the scope possibly causing the problem. My 94 thirty thirty doesn't start shooting the softer hunting alloys well @ the 2000 fps range unless I use 4064 or slower. I haven't tried jacketed with the faster powders though.

Three shot groups; You know the Nosler Reloading Manual I have states that with the magnum calibers they only used three shot groups. With slim sporter barrels three shot groups are fine. My rem 760 06 after the 3rd shot would shoot 3 or 4" to the 4:30 position @ 100 yds and after 5 shots you really didn't want to touch the barrel. Why don't they mean anything are you shooting competition or is it because that is what is noted everywhere. If it is used for hunting what is wrong with three shot group. You sight your 3 shot group in @ 1" high @ a 100 yds just before opening day. The 3rd or 4th day you take another 3 shot group with the same fouled barrel and the same size group is near the same spot even if the weather is different. Then 4 or 5 days later you do the same group and it is near the same 1" high. Just before the last weekend you do the same and get the same results even if the weather is different. Are you going to need to shoot more than three times even with a moving target? So, what is wrong with three shot groups. I have heard that three shot groups tell what the weapon can do, five and ten shot groups tell what the shooter can do.

[Bird]

KLR,
Thats exactly what I do. Fit an octagonal barrel. I purchased several 24'' barrels, and convert the carbines to rifles. After putting in some work and much range practice and load development, I had the shorter barrel carbines shooting at 1.25moa, but to group that well , it always took me a while to settle down at the range. The heavier, longer rifle barrel conversions always shot more accurately off the bat, at 1moa and even better after practice.
Some of the barrels I got from Gun Parts Corp, or whatever they are called now. They were not winchester branded barrels back then, and got a couple with a 1 in 10 twist, which performed really well with 170 grain jacketed and 180 grain cast bullets. Those barrels were not tapered, but were 0.850 A/F at the breech and muzzle. I set them up so they are semi free floated with just a small thickened blob of epoxy an inch and a half or so from the forend tip. I use tang sights and a lyman interchangeable globe front sight. There are another couple of mods I use, but its all simple stuff. I have tapered octagonal barrels with the correct forend wood, but they are win brand with their slower twist, and as yet I have not put them on a receiver.
Are you target shooting, or is this for hunting. If you want accuracy at around 0.750'' or better, I can make a suggestion to get you there, but would be best for paper punching, and you would have to load one at a time through the top of the action.

[pietro]

.

FWIW: Your issue might be one of technique, rather than being a shortcoming of the rifle and/or ammunition.

IME, with leverguns, if a levergun with 2-piece stocks is benched/shot like a bolt-action or other one-piece stocked rifles, it will be difficult to obtain the best accuracy.

I can usually squeeze 1-1/2"-2" groups from most leverguns, due to the way I hold/bench one.

I never let any part of a levergun's metal or wood touch anything except part of my body.

That means I insulate the front of the rifle from the rest via holding the FE in one hand, with the back of the hand on the rest - that hand keeps a tight grip, with a downward & rearward pull/tension while the trigger is pulled.

Likewise, I do not allow the rifle's butt to touch the benchtop (etc) - the trigger hand grasps the stock tightly, while simultaneously pulling the rifle rearward, hard into my shoulder, for the shot.


Good luck with your issue.

.

[Bird]

KLR, I see in your above post mentioning 55yd and that 3 shot groups don't mean much. You should try that 0.3'' load at 100yds and see if it holds, and if it shoots an inch or so I would call that good for a carbine length barrel.
A three shot group for a carbine with barrel bands is plenty. Those barrels heat up quickly, and I have watched the point of impact move further across the target with each successive shot, until the barrel temp drops. You might make four good shots in a group, but any more than that they will open up. A hot or overheated barrel will kill your accuracy whatever else you do.
If you are resting the forend wood on a bag, your groups will vary a lot if you do not rest on the exact same sweet spot each and every time.
I have got the best accuracy using 150 grain remington and hornady bullets with just under max loads of win748 powder according to lyman 49th manual. I used to use IMR3031 at near max, until one day I could not find stock, and went with the 748 instead, and found that to be a tads more accurate.
I never got the same accuracy with the heavier lead and jacketed bullets in the carbines.
You can also try the magazine in a different position. In the factory position, the mag cap screw butts up into the barrel and puts pressure on the barrel, at least it does on mine. Turn the magazine through 180 degrees, and file a new groove for the barrel band screw and refit it, and try it in that position. I do this for the 24'' octagon, and it makes a difference, but strangely enough my carbine seems to prefer the cap screw in the factory position touching the barrel.
Groups also suffer badly off the bench from an inconsistent, or I should say the right amount of hold. It always takes me a while and a few rounds to settle down and find the right grip, then it starts to form groups. These carbines are not the easiest to get to shoot good, but they will if everything is just right.
Barrel temp. Rest position under forearm. Right hold on stock.

[Bird]

I agree with Pietro, I have seen others who shoot with their hand under the forend between the rest for more control and they can do pretty good. It may sound obvious, but experiment with the amount of grip and pull of the stock into the shoulder. it seems to make more of a difference with these guns than most any other rifles I have shot.

[outdoorfan]

Bird and pietro have it right.

Absolutely verify verify verify verify that your bench technique is sound AND that the bedding/harmonics of the levergun is sound. I didn't see it mentioned (sorry if I missed it) as to the type of stringing you are getting with that gun? Is it vertical? Vertical stringing, in my experience, should be solved through one or both of the items just mentioned above.

I know how frustrating this is. I shot hundreds of rounds trying to figure out why my 94 wasn't working right before I figured out that bench technique is critical, as well as the bedding/harmonics of the levergun.

The harder the gun recoils the firmer you need to hold that front forend in your hand. Any jump/movement of the rifle in recoil will throw your groups upward and vertically string them.

Btw, when shooting the gun without the forend and magtube in place, I don't think I would let any part of the barrel or receiver rest on the bag. I would try to support that somehow or the results may not be much different than previous.

[Alan in GA]

What poundage is the trigger pull?
Do you want to stay with 30/30?

[KLR]

Let's see:

3-round groups are fine if they are consistent every time I take my rifle out. Mine aren't. That .3" was a one-time deal. I don't believe I have a .5 MOA 94.

I've even shot one-shot groups. I let the rifle temperature stabilize for an hour between shots. No difference.

I've rested only the receiver on the front rest,
I've rested the barrel on the front rest,
I've held it firmly,
I've held it lightly,
I've allowed no part to touch the rest and bags,
I've held it firmly in the rest and bags,
I've repeated all of this with and without naked barrel,
I've installed just the forearm without the magazine tube,
I've cranked down the barrel bands,
I've loosened the barrel bands,
I've relieved the barrel bands,
I've shortened the magazine cap screw so it puts no upward pressure on the barrel,
I've opened the forearm channel so that there are no sharp pressure points,
I've had four scopes and two set of rings,
I've shot it at my backyard 55 yard range and the 100 yard range in my field.

In short, I do a lot of reading and problem solving on my own and have tried about everything I can find on the net. I'm looking at the barrel as a last resort.

In the meantime, my son wanted to go deer hunting this summer with his Marlin 336 30-30. I put together two loads for testing. Both were under 2" at 100 yards. 4 shot groups. It had a cheap Bushnell scope.

Yes, I'd like to stay with a 30-30, but I would consider an A.I. version.

I want to use this mainly for hunting and killing pests around the farm.

4lb crisp trigger.

Thanks for the help, guys. As you can see, I've tried about everything I've found on the net except modifying the barrel itself.

[Alan in GA]

I tried doing EVERYTHING to a barrel that did not shoot as it should. It looked 'different' in the bore when first inspected. Remington 700 new take off bbl in 17 Rem. It was 'suspect' to begin with because of the bore's visual appearance. This was a second 'fit to 17 Ackley Hornet' project I had done. Goal was a CZ 527 17 Ackley Hornet. My first 'same project' was also a Rem 17 Rem 700 take off barrel. THAT barrel is still shooting under an inch with right at 7,000+ rounds through it (thank you Montana ground squirrels!).
However even though this second take off looked a bit suspect, we went ahead with a few hours of lathe and mill work to make/fit it to another CZ 527. 3/4" groups at 100 was the very best it would do, about double the acceptable accuracy for this cartridge. My friend did not want to give up on it so it became a BIG project. Cut off some chamber end and recut thread shank and recut chamber again. Cut 1/2" off muzzle and recrowned again after dialing in bore on lathe to under a thousandth inch. Barrel never did shoot better than 3/4" @ 100.
sometimes you just have a 'bad' barrel. Of course it can be fun when you have all the machinery in your own and/or friend's homes, but you cannot always make a purse out of a sow's ear. Rebarrel or re bore (32 or 375 Win) and go on. Sounds like you've tried everything.
Pronounce it dead and give a 'time of death'. Then hang it on a wall,.... Even tomatoes won't be able to climb it.

[outdoorfan]

Sounds like you've tried many things. Kudos to you. You've done a lot of the hard work and testing.

Since you want to stay with the .30-30, then it looks like your only option is to rebarrel, being that leaving the rifling as-is probably won't help you any even if you alter the chamber for the improved version.

Otherwise, you can still use your .30-30 brass, converting to .35/30-30. JES Reboring did mine. Same ballistics and case capacity as the .35 Remington, but with a really long neck and good brass availability.

Btw, I doubt firelapping will change things that dramatically for you, but that's another bucket to kick before giving up on your project as-is.

[retread]

I have a pre64 30-30 model 94 that was terrible with jacketed. When I started casting I slugged the barrel and it miked out at .311. No wonder my groups were huge! Sized my cast accordingly and the groups tighten right up. It is just a cast shooter now. I am sure you probably have slugged the bore but I thought I would mention my experience just in case that was one area you missed.

[salvadore]

I had a late 80s 1894 CL Marlin in 25/20. It also wouldn't shoot. Tried most of the same things you did with your Winchester plus barrel lapping, no luck. Fast forward 17 years, purchased another 94 CL in 32/20 that shoots everything I feed it admirably.

I can't remember how well my Win. 94 32 WSP shot before I had the barrel shortened to 16", but shoots my cast bullets @ 1800fps into about an inch at 50yds with iron sights, better than I can see at 65 yo. It doesn't matter how I position it on the rest.

[Outpost75]

The best you can hope for in a .30-30 lever action is 2-3" at 100 yards. I don't care what you do to it.

You can spend more on that gun than it is worth and it will still be no better than minute of beer can at 100 yards.

THAT's what they do. If you want an accurate .30-30 lever action, find a Savage 99!

Or, to accurize a non-collectible 94, shorten the magazine tube to the length of the fore-end.
Throw away the barrel band.
Set back and firmly thread the shortened magazine tube into the receiver.
The magazine tube then becomes the fore-end hanger.
Free float the barrel so there is no contact with the magazine tube or fore-end.

THEN it will shoot.

[Maximumbob54]

We've all seen the video of the guy shooting a Winny in .30-30 at a thousand yard target, right?

I say keep at it. Maybe have the bore inspected for problems.

[KLR]

Pronounce it dead and give a 'time of death'. Then hang it on a wall,.... Even tomatoes won't be able to climb it.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I think a bad barrel is the case here. The wall-hanger came to mind, but I'm too stubborn and get too much enjoyment from experimenting.






Otherwise, you can still use your .30-30 brass, converting to .35/30-30. JES Reboring did mine. Same ballistics and case capacity as the .35 Remington, but with a really long neck and good brass availability.

Btw, I doubt firelapping will change things that dramatically for you, but that's another bucket to kick before giving up on your project as-is.

I had a 35 Rem Marlin and will have another someday. Right now I want to stay with 30 cal because of the jacketed bullet selection.

I've never tried firelapping but I'll consider it.


I have a pre64 30-30 model 94 that was terrible with jacketed. When I started casting I slugged the barrel and it miked out at .311. No wonder my groups were huge! Sized my cast accordingly and the groups tighten right up. It is just a cast shooter now. I am sure you probably have slugged the bore but I thought I would mention my experience just in case that was one area you missed.

Yes, I did the whole cast bullet thing and have a bullet that fits properly. It shoots as well as the jacketed I've tried. My barrel mikes at .3085.


The best you can hope for in a .30-30 lever action is 2-3" at 100 yards. I don't care what you do to it.

You can spend more on that gun than it is worth and it will still be no better than minute of beer can at 100 yards.

THAT's what they do. If you want an accurate .30-30 lever action, find a Savage 99!

Or, to accurize a non-collectible 94, shorten the magazine tube to the length of the fore-end.
Throw away the barrel band.
Set back and firmly thread the shortened magazine tube into the receiver.
The magazine tube then becomes the fore-end hanger.
Free float the barrel so there is no contact with the magazine tube or fore-end.

THEN it will shoot.

My son's Marlin would prove you wrong about the 2-3" max lever gun.

The money is a non-issue. It's a hobby and I enjoy spending time with it.

I could never own a Savage 99. It hit too many branches when it fell out of the Ugly Tree. ;-)

I like the threaded mag tube idea. It would have to be combined with a heavier barrel. I've shot it repeatedly with the current barrel floating with no improvement.





I say keep at it. Maybe have the bore inspected for problems.

I am. For me the experimenting is fun and the learning is worth it.

[helice]

Back in the '70s my father gave me a 94 Trapper that just refused to group. I tried everything I knew at the time to no avail. I had friends shoot it with their loads. I had perfect strangers shoot it at the range using their loads and mine. The dang thing just would not shoot repeatedly to point of aim. I sold it to a young police officer who had a strange affection for it. Bought a late model Angle Eject Trapper which seems to digest nearly everything I stick in it. The silly thing just loves Ranch Dogs. My heart goes out to you. I guess some guns are just fouled up somehow when they are assembled and seem to be never intended to satisfy a good shooter. I commend you for sticking to it as you have. I confess that I gave up long before you did.

Rifles are fun and tinkering with them is greatly enjoyed here abouts. I picked up a barrel from an old M-94 that was bored out by a Phoenix AZ gunsmith named Lucky Wade. It is a 26" Winchester Octagonal bored out to what appears to be a fairly loose 444 Marlin. I'm told Mr Wade did a good bit of the R&D for the Van Houten Super and the Marlin 444 and word has it he was not too happy when he got no credit for his labors. I continue to keep my eyes open for an off brand 94 Winchester, sold through Sears and Sawbuck or Monkey Wards or some hardware store in Middle America. Something I can pick up cheap. I'll have the barrel replaced and have me a real honest Winchester with a really cheap, ugly stock. Can't wait. Rifles are fun.

[Frank46]

I once proposed a single shot marlin with a heavy barrel on the assra.com website. Man did I get some hostile responses. By single shot I mean a 1.250 diameter barrel 20" long and chambered for the 30-30. If you could locate a take off barrel from one of the remington varmint synthetic or other varmint rifles pretty sure there would be enough meat left for threading and rechambering. By single shot everything forward of the front of the receiver would be gone and a heavy wood forearm under the barrel. I have a 1928 model 54 action that was made for the 30-30 cartridge,a bubbad win 70 marksman stock and a couple 1.250 barrels that are in 308 but cut off the chamber still leaves 22". yeah, crazy ideas. Check with gun parts as to the availability of some of the older winchester octagon barrels. And maybe go from there. Frank

[KLR]

Back in the '70s my father gave me a 94 Trapper that just refused to group. I tried everything I knew at the time to no avail. I had friends shoot it with their loads. I had perfect strangers shoot it at the range using their loads and mine. The dang thing just would not shoot repeatedly to point of aim. I sold it to a young police officer who had a strange affection for it. Bought a late model Angle Eject Trapper which seems to digest nearly everything I stick in it. The silly thing just loves Ranch Dogs. My heart goes out to you. I guess some guns are just fouled up somehow when they are assembled and seem to be never intended to satisfy a good shooter. I commend you for sticking to it as you have. I confess that I gave up long before you did.

Rifles are fun and tinkering with them is greatly enjoyed here abouts. I picked up a barrel from an old M-94 that was bored out by a Phoenix AZ gunsmith named Lucky Wade. It is a 26" Winchester Octagonal bored out to what appears to be a fairly loose 444 Marlin. I'm told Mr Wade did a good bit of the R&D for the Van Houten Super and the Marlin 444 and word has it he was not too happy when he got no credit for his labors. I continue to keep my eyes open for an off brand 94 Winchester, sold through Sears and Sawbuck or Monkey Wards or some hardware store in Middle America. Something I can pick up cheap. I'll have the barrel replaced and have me a real honest Winchester with a really cheap, ugly stock. Can't wait. Rifles are fun.

Thanks for your thoughts, helice, I think this is one of those rifles. It was also a bear to get to feed reliability. Maybe it was made on a Friday. My wife gave me this rifle for Christmas so I have added incentive to make it work. I've decided to just enjoy the experimenting process and see what I can learn.

That 444 project sounds interesting. Numrich has .375 Win barrels for $60 ish. It would take some lathe work, but I thought about fitting one of those.



I once proposed a single shot marlin with a heavy barrel on the assra.com website. Man did I get some hostile responses. By single shot I mean a 1.250 diameter barrel 20" long and chambered for the 30-30. If you could locate a take off barrel from one of the remington varmint synthetic or other varmint rifles pretty sure there would be enough meat left for threading and rechambering. By single shot everything forward of the front of the receiver would be gone and a heavy wood forearm under the barrel. I have a 1928 model 54 action that was made for the 30-30 cartridge,a bubbad win 70 marksman stock and a couple 1.250 barrels that are in 308 but cut off the chamber still leaves 22". yeah, crazy ideas. Check with gun parts as to the availability of some of the older winchester octagon barrels. And maybe go from there. Frank

I'd definitely be interested in seeing how that turns out. I thought about something similar, but attaching a short mag tube to the receiver for a two-round capacity.
Numrich has the octagon barrels for $143. I may try one, but I have a few ideas to try first.

[Good Cheer]

Twenty years... still trying to get the 25-35 '94 shooting tight.
All part of the fun.

[Bird]

I once proposed a single shot marlin with a heavy barrel on the assra.com website. Man did I get some hostile responses. By single shot I mean a 1.250 diameter barrel 20" long and chambered for the 30-30. If you could locate a take off barrel from one of the remington varmint synthetic or other varmint rifles pretty sure there would be enough meat left for threading and rechambering. By single shot everything forward of the front of the receiver would be gone and a heavy wood forearm under the barrel. I have a 1928 model 54 action that was made for the 30-30 cartridge,a bubbad win 70 marksman stock and a couple 1.250 barrels that are in 308 but cut off the chamber still leaves 22". yeah, crazy ideas. Check with gun parts as to the availability of some of the older winchester octagon barrels. And maybe go from there. Frank
I have one here that I put together on a 94 angle eject action. 20'' bull barrel 1.125'' dia I think. Its chambered for 22-250R, rimmed. Brass is custom made from 307 brass using a forming die set, then trimmed to length and outside neck turned for 1thou chamber neck clearance. Accuracy load is within max pressure for the action using IMR 4064 powder and 50 grain remington phlp bullets. Max load produces 3300fps, but I run at 3150fps to keep pressure on the safe side. 5 shot groups at 1/2'' to 6/10ths at 100yds. Managed a few groups down to 4/10ths. Sounds like a tall story, but one of these days I will take it to the range again and do a write up on it.

[Frank46]

Bird, thanks for your post. Seems I'm not the only one wanting a real heavy bbld single shot lever action. Frank

[Bird]

Bird, thanks for your post. Seems I'm not the only one wanting a real heavy bbld single shot lever action. Frank
http://s645.photobucket.com/user/jagman38/media/P1250126.jpg.html?o=5
I do not have the picture thingy sorted yet, but there is a pic of the cartridge in the above link. I will get some of the rifle and post in a new thread when I get the pic posting sorted out.
Apologies for sidetracking the thread.

[KLR]

http://s645.photobucket.com/user/jagman38/media/P1250126.jpg.html?o=5
I do not have the picture thingy sorted yet, but there is a pic of the cartridge in the above link. I will get some of the rifle and post in a new thread when I get the pic posting sorted out.
Apologies for sidetracking the thread.

Thanks, Bird, your experience is exactly what I'm looking for. Post all you want here. Your results lead me to think I'm on the right track. Somewhere between your .5" grouping bull barrel and my 4" grouping pencil barrel I should be able to find a heavier barrel that will give me 2" groups and still be light enough to carry.

I'm looking forward to your thread.

[TXGunNut]

Numrich has .375 Win barrels for $60 ish. It would take some lathe work, but I thought about fitting one of those. -KLR


I like the way you think, care to expand on your thoughts a bit? I'm a 38-55 fan and my first levergun was (and is) a 375.

[KLR]

Numrich has .375 Win barrels for $60 ish. It would take some lathe work, but I thought about fitting one of those. -KLR


I like the way you think, care to expand on your thoughts a bit? I'm a 38-55 fan and my first levergun was (and is) a 375.

Well it wasn't my idea. I was researching a conversion to 38-55 and stumbled upon this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?8549-Win-94-30-30-to-375-Win-Conversion

[TXGunNut]

As that thread makes clear the 94 isn't ready for a .375 conversion but it will handle the 38-55. If the barrel is marked .375 you'll need to re-mark it or at least "X" out the 375 markings. I think the slightly tighter bore of the .375 makes a better CB rifle than many of the .379 or bigger 38-55 bores.

[Frank46]

Bird, thanks for the quick photo of your wildcat cartridge. And as I was fooling around with some 444 marlin cases and a 308 sizing die I found out that with some imperial die sizing wax you can make up a 308/444 wildcat. Not that I'm going to get my 444 rebarreled any time soon. thanks,Frank

[725]

I've posted this before, but here goes. I had a 94 AE .44 mag that wouldn't shoot for beans. Tried all the tricks in my limited bag to no avail. Ended up rebarreling it with a slightly longer barrel. Made sure there were no dovetail cuts for a rear or front sight. Applied a ramp type front sight and used a Lyman rear sight off the receiver. Can't remember the specifics right off the top of my head, but the factory barrel was over bored and the replacement came right in around the .429 / .430 range. Shoots wonderfully right now. Spent way too much to have it all done, but like you, it's my hobby, my gun, and now it's just the way I want it. Critters beware.

[Bird]

Numrich has .375 Win barrels for $60 ish. It would take some lathe work, but I thought about fitting one of those. -KLR


I like the way you think, care to expand on your thoughts a bit? I'm a 38-55 fan and my first levergun was (and is) a 375.

Don't take this as always the case, but of the numrich barrels and the winchester brand barrels that I have swapped out, I have never had to do any machining or needed the lathe. I just screwed the barrel on, and the headspace was set. The chambers were already finish reamed. One particular 94 I had changed the barrel on, needed an oversized locking bolt, but I seem to remember that it may have needed it before the barrel swap.
I dont know for sure, but maybe all the winchester barrels were finish reamed at the factory, and the headspace was adjusted by the size of the locking bolt.
I don't know who made the numrich barrels, but they screwed on and headspaced perfectly.

[olafhardt]

I play arround with topeject 94's in the post 64 4,500,000 plus range. I think the zero must shift as the magazine empties for other reasons in addition to differential thermal expansion. As the magazine empties the weight suspended from the front end of the barrel decreases. Also as the magazine empties the pressure exerted by the magazine spring is reduced thereby reducing the torque exerted by the front barrel band on the barrel. I recommend that one sight in guns with tubular mags with the mag fully loaded for each shot if you hunt with the mag fully loaded. I haven't tested this yet but a tube gun may shoot better groups with the mag partially loaded.
I once read that lead sandwiched between structural steel and rubber wrapping absorbed vibrations during earthquakes. I tried wrapping a strip of roofing lead around the barrel of a 10-22 then over wrapped that with stretched elastic. My groups improved.
I am one of those that believes that putting a scope on a 94 is like putting a saddle on a hog. When I look at an angle eject 94 from the top there seems to be only the thin metal receiver walls to resist verticle flexing. I would not think it would take much flexing to change the scope-bore relationship.
I can no longer see a two inch bullseye very well and I only hunt in thick woods. A 3 inch group at 35 yards is fine for me. To quote Mr. Eastwood, " A man needs to know his limitations." I love this site , there are so many people not afraid to think out of the box and post their thoughts, experiences, ask questions , etc. You are surely one of us.

[KLR]

As that thread makes clear the 94 isn't ready for a .375 conversion but it will handle the 38-55. If the barrel is marked .375 you'll need to re-mark it or at least "X" out the 375 markings. I think the slightly tighter bore of the .375 makes a better CB rifle than many of the .379 or bigger 38-55 bores.

Absolutely. I'd file off the 375 marking and punch it with 38-55. The one thing that I don't like about the conversion is that I like the selection of .308 jacketed bullets.


I've posted this before, but here goes. I had a 94 AE .44 mag that wouldn't shoot for beans. Tried all the tricks in my limited bag to no avail. Ended up rebarreling it with a slightly longer barrel. Made sure there were no dovetail cuts for a rear or front sight. Applied a ramp type front sight and used a Lyman rear sight off the receiver. Can't remember the specifics right off the top of my head, but the factory barrel was over bored and the replacement came right in around the .429 / .430 range. Shoots wonderfully right now. Spent way too much to have it all done, but like you, it's my hobby, my gun, and now it's just the way I want it. Critters beware.

Thanks for your input. I look at the dovetail cut for the rear sight and forearm and figure that can't be helping things any and a new smooth barrel that was slightly heavier would be the solution.


I play arround with topeject 94's in the post 64 4,500,000 plus range. I think the zero must shift as the magazine empties for other reasons in addition to differential thermal expansion. As the magazine empties the weight suspended from the front end of the barrel decreases. Also as the magazine empties the pressure exerted by the magazine spring is reduced thereby reducing the torque exerted by the front barrel band on the barrel. I recommend that one sight in guns with tubular mags with the mag fully loaded for each shot if you hunt with the mag fully loaded. I haven't tested this yet but a tube gun may shoot better groups with the mag partially loaded.
I once read that lead sandwiched between structural steel and rubber wrapping absorbed vibrations during earthquakes. I tried wrapping a strip of roofing lead around the barrel of a 10-22 then over wrapped that with stretched elastic. My groups improved.
I am one of those that believes that putting a scope on a 94 is like putting a saddle on a hog. When I look at an angle eject 94 from the top there seems to be only the thin metal receiver walls to resist verticle flexing. I would not think it would take much flexing to change the scope-bore relationship.
I can no longer see a two inch bullseye very well and I only hunt in thick woods. A 3 inch group at 35 yards is fine for me. To quote Mr. Eastwood, " A man needs to know his limitations." I love this site , there are so many people not afraid to think out of the box and post their thoughts, experiences, ask questions , etc. You are surely one of us.

Mine won't shoot accurately without the magazine tube so I don't think that's my main problem. However, I'm looking at that magazine tube and wondering what would happen if I attached it to the barrel to help dampen vibrations. The Mini 14 guys use a strut below the barrel to help with accuracy. I might even bond the two together with silicone. I know uneven heating will cause the barrel to walk the shots, but maybe I could get three accurate shots before it becomes a problem.

[olafhardt]

I reviewed this post and reflected on my past. As much as I love 94's, I have to say that if one wants an accurate rifle, the 94 is not a real good place to start.

[dead dog]

Bird how high is the globe front sight you used? I have a38 -55 barrel and Lyman tang rear sight.

[KLR]

... if one wants an accurate rifle, the 94 is not a real good place to start.

Yes, but it's a lot easier than turning an accurate rifle into a 94. ;)

Anyway, time for an update.

I know that a good scientist changes only one thing at a time, but I have more evening shop time than I do ammo and daylight shooting hours, so here is what I did this week:

Epoxy bedded the buttstock,
Epoxy bedded the forearm,
Cleaned the barrel with powder solvent, followed by a copper solvent, followed by about 20 strokes of Uncle Ed's Bore Paste. Repeated the entire process 3x. I had cleaned the barrel well before, but not used the mildly abrasive Bore Paste.
Crowned the muzzle. I used a 1.250" steel ball bearing and valve grinding compound.

Results: (shooting at 55 yds)

First time out I shot 6 into a little under two inches. The first shot was about 3/4" low as expected from a clean, cold, oiled bore. Remaining 5 shots went into a little over an inch. Held rifle lightly resting my hands/arms on the bench and didn't wait between shots.

Several hours later and again holding the rifle and resting my hands/arms on the bench I got a 4-shot 1.250" group. The horizontal disbursement was only .6 and it was obvious I was getting vertical stringing.

I waited several hours and shot another group. This time I held the rifle firmly in the front and rear bags. Again, about .6 horizontal and this time 1.750" vertical.

Now I think I'm getting somewhere, so last night I removed the forearm leaving only the bare barrel. Today I shot it holding the receiver firmly in the front rest and holding the buttstock firmly in the rear bag. I put 4 into .65" in a nice round group. :-D The point of impact was several inches lower than the other three groups.

So it looks like the random flinging is gone and now I just need to tweak the vertical disbursement. I finally feel like I'm getting somewhere.

[outdoorfan]

Hey, way to go! Feels good when you know you've put the time in and are seeing results.

[Bird]

Bird how high is the globe front sight you used? I have a38 -55 barrel and Lyman tang rear sight.
I will have to check on that for you. The barrels I have are 26'' barrels, and not 24'' that I stated earlier. For target shooting I use one of the round inserts in the globe sight. This fits a NRA 100 yard small bore rifle targets perfectly when set at 100yds. It leaves a small slither of white between the black insert and the black target center.

[Bird]

The front globe is the .494'', which is now the 17 AMI. The best way to calculate the one you need is to work off your existing front sight. If you had a tapered barrel, you may want a taller front sight than the one I used. If you run out of elevation, you would want a lower front sight. I could have used a slightly lower front sight, or a taller tang sight. I run about 2'' low at 100yds with my low velocity loads, but hey, groups are groups.
I believe I cut my group size almost in half with the above sights and set up, over using the factory sights.

[Bird]

KLR,
It sounds like things are coming along. I found the best position for the front bag off the bench is usually at a point close to the receiver.
What loads are you using, and what weight and brand of bullets are you using.

[KLR]

Bird - I'm shooting Hornady 170 gr RN over 29 gr of 3031.

[Bird]

KLR,
I found the 150 grain bullets shot noticeably better than the 170 grain bullets. Both the remingtons or hornadys shot really well. The lighter bullets gave me better than a 0.5moa. improvement . load was 0.5 grain below max of w748 powder.
IMR3031 was a good powder, but for me the w748 gave me better accuracy around 0.25moa.

[KLR]

KLR,
I found the 150 grain bullets shot noticeably better than the 170 grain bullets. Both the remingtons or hornadys shot really well. The lighter bullets gave me better than a 0.5moa. improvement . load was 0.5 grain below max of w748 powder.
IMR3031 was a good powder, but for me the w748 gave me better accuracy around 0.25moa.

Thanks, Bird. I've tried a number of bullets including 100, 110, 150, and the Hornady Leverevolution. Now that I know what is possible I'm going to get it shooting well with the mag tube installed and then revisit the whole load development. I don't have any W748, but I'll get some and give it a try.

[TXGunNut]

I think you're on to something; does the mag tube touch the barrel anywhere?

[KLR]

I think you're on to something; does the mag tube touch the barrel anywhere?

No magazine tube for last weekend's shooting. Forearm and then bare barrel. Reintroducing the mag tube is next.

[TXGunNut]

No magazine tube for last weekend's shooting. Forearm and then bare barrel. Reintroducing the mag tube is next.

Yes, but it was in place when you had vertical stringing, correct?

[KLR]

Yes, but it was in place when you had vertical stringing, correct?

No, only the forearm and its barrel band.

[TXGunNut]

Mmmmm...missed that. At this point I would carefully weigh every powder charge and take a careful, thoughtful look at your crimp. But I suspect you already plan on doing that.

[KLR]

Mmmmm...missed that. At this point I would carefully weigh every powder charge and take a careful, thoughtful look at your crimp. But I suspect you already plan on doing that.

I've been doing that for the last 250 rounds. Every charge is weighed, every piece of brass trimmed to the same length, and carefully crimped. I've also experimented between a roll crimp and the Lee FCD.

[TXGunNut]

Hmm....seems I'm no help at all. How much experimenting have you done with lubes? I don't think I've ever had a lube contribute to a bad group but I have one rifle where it may be a possibility.

[KLR]

How much experimenting have you done with lubes?

Not much at all. I abandoned the cast bullets and moved to jacketed to figure this thing out.

[pme166]

http://eickpm.com/picts/94_target.jpg

I don't think the 94 is really as bad as some folks think. Sure its no precision bolt rifle that has been blueprinted and has a custom barrel, but they can be pretty reasonable. Here is a target shot off the bench at 100 yrds, 50 shot groups with my 1964 (pre-64 version) 94 with the original sights. It takes a while to shoot 50 as the gun warms up but if you sit down, shoot 3 or 4 rounds. Set it aside so it can cool and repeat, you can get a pretty decent group off the bench. This was a 150 grn Sierra with 30 grns of 3031 so nothing earthshaking on the load. Mine tends to throw wide when the magazine is fuller for some reason. Keep at most 3 in the mag tube and it does better so it is a 4 shot gun.

To the OP, given all you have done to this particular specimen. Could it be cheaper to just get another specimen and look for one that comes from the factory more accurate? Then go through the tuning to take it to the next step?

[KLR]

I don't think the 94 is really as bad as some folks think. Sure its no precision bolt rifle that has been blueprinted and has a custom barrel, but they can be pretty reasonable. Here is a target shot off the bench at 100 yrds, 50 shot groups with my 1964 (pre-64 version) 94 with the original sights. It takes a while to shoot 50 as the gun warms up but if you sit down, shoot 3 or 4 rounds. Set it aside so it can cool and repeat, you can get a pretty decent group off the bench. This was a 150 grn Sierra with 30 grns of 3031 so nothing earthshaking on the load. Mine tends to throw wide when the magazine is fuller for some reason. Keep at most 3 in the mag tube and it does better so it is a 4 shot gun.

To the OP, given all you have done to this particular specimen. Could it be cheaper to just get another specimen and look for one that comes from the factory more accurate? Then go through the tuning to take it to the next step?

Nice shooting.

I could get another, but I'm too deep into this one to start over with another and too stubborn to know when I'm beat.

[TXGunNut]

Nice shooting.

I could get another, but I'm too deep into this one to start over with another and too stubborn to know when I'm beat.


I understand. I took my first levergun out of retirement awhile back. I bought a new mould, SWAG'd a version of an old j-word load, installed a new receiver sight and was sighted in and shooting great groups in just a few rounds. It was actually a bit disappointing. I somewhat agree with Col Whelen's opinion that only accurate rifles are interesting. I've also found that rifles that "should" be accurate are interesting and good teaching tools.