Bullet Design for bear defense

[Jevyod]

Recently I acquired a 45 acp that I plan on carrying while archery hunting. I was not sure what bullet design I should be looking at. My guess is penetration will be my friend. I was thinking of Lee's 230 grn tc design. The thing I wasn't sure about was since I powdercoat, it might add just enough to the nose of the boolit to keep it from chambering properly. I tried some of Buffalo Bore's 255 grn lead boolits, and a few of them failed the plunk test.

So my initial thought was the tc design would be ideal for more shock value, but again I am not sure if they would work. But I was also thinking that if I am after penetration, a rn design might be better. Or should I look into the 200 grn swc? I was afraid that might be on the light side...

Gun is a Ruger S45

And please, let's not turn this into a bash of why I am stupid for using a 45 acp. That is the only sidearm I own, and since I am currently in college, There is no way I am going to be able to purchase another. So I will be carrying that unless something unforeseen turns up. Would I feel more comfortable with a 44 mag? Maybe, but this gun handles beautifully and fits my hand nicely and I can probably shoot it better than a 44 mag. I am planning on working up some 230 grn lead boolits into the 900fps+ range.

[Vopie]

Check your state regs, many states do not allow a firearm ( including side arms ) afield while archery hunting. Best to find out before ya have any problems.... Boolett wise, heavyest that will reliably function in your weapon.

[Jevyod]

Check your state regs, many states do not allow a firearm ( including side arms ) afield while archery hunting. Best to find out before ya have any problems.... Boolett wise, heavyest that will reliably function in your weapon.

Thanks for the pointer! Already checked and it is legal in pa!

[Pumpkinheaver]

I powder coat the Lee 230 TC bullet and while I don't have a Ruger they feed fine in my Kimber.

[scottfire1957]

My advice is to get very good at magazine changes. Practice with a high school football player tackling you. Paintball or airsoft gun might give an idea of how fast your reaction times are.

Never shot a bear, but doubt I'd use a Pb cast for defense against a charging momma bear.

YMMV.


Edit: shoot early, shoot often.

Edit 2: whoever kills the other first will have a filling meal!

[jblee10]

The thing I wasn't sure about was since I powdercoat, it might add just enough to the nose of the boolit to keep it from chambering properly. I tried some of Buffalo Bore's 255 grn lead boolits, and a few of them failed the plunk test.
I'm not going to bash you for using a 45ACP. I'll bash you for not function testing your ammo.

I say, smear bacon grease on your chest. Take your pluck tested ammo with you, with a can of used motor oil and some old donuts. Lay down in black bear country. Wait awhile, and post your results.

[kentuckyshooter]

Im no expert. The 45acp is considered underpowered for bear. But seeing as thats what u got it will do in a pinch. Ur right in thinking penitration. Round nose designes will get u where u want to be. A slightly harder alloy to reduce expansion and go as heavy as u can. There things will all stack things in ur favor to give u a fighting chance. I know what its like to work with limited options. Also u might check out some bear mace. If its in ur budget that just gives u another edge if u are confronted with a close encounter with mama bear.

[NavyVet1959]

A small bear can definitely be taken with a .45ACP, but what if the bear does not want to cooperate and shows up as a large bear? :)

Still, it's better than nothing.

Can the Ruger S45 be converted to .460 Rowland? You'll need a heavier recoil spring and maybe a compensator.

[knifemaker]

That 230 gr. TC lead bullet loaded to +P velocity of over 900 fps will stop a black bear if you put the bullet in the frontal lobe of the brain. May even stop or slow down a charge if you bust the front shoulder bone and finish up with a second or third shot. The main key you mentioned is that you shoot the gun very well and bullet placement is far more important then packing a 44 mag that you may not shoot as well. A lot of the arm chair experts will claim that only a 44 mag or bigger will get the job done and half of them can not shoot that big gun good enough to hit a vital spot that will stop a charge. Heck, a poorly placed shot with a 458 Winchester mag will not get the job done in stopping a charge.

[Rustyleee]

I'm almost 60 years old now, but thinking back to one of the first gun magazines I ever bought I do remember there was an article in it on taking a black bear with a Colt Gold Cup. It can be done and it had been done.
Just sayin,

[Seeker]

Thanks for the pointer! Already checked and it is legal in pa!
It is legal ....if you have a firearm permit. That said, I've been archery hunting in Pa. bear country for over 30 yrs., have seen a ton of bears. Big males and sows with cubs in tow. I've had them sniffing the rungs on my tree stand, but have never felt threatened by a black bear. I do carry a side arm while archery hunting with the hopes of taking a coyote. I never considered it as protection from bears. You shoot a bear in archery deer season....you better be able to prove that the bear was indeed attacking.

[Yellow Fang]

I'm almost 60 years old now, but thinking back to one of the first gun magazines I ever bought I do remember there was an article in it on taking a black bear with a Colt Gold Cup. It can be done and it had been done.
Just sayin,
Agreed. As I understand it, the 45 Colt did good service as a primary sidearm, and ballistics weren't too different from the 45 ACP.

For hard cast bullets, heavy with as big a meplat as possible tends to leave two holes.

[makicjf]

I've not bear hunted, and I'm not aware of any bear in this part of Texas; but I have dropped a running feral hog with the lee 230 tc at 25 yards from an officers model with that bullet. The load was a air colled 230 tc ( weighs 240) seated to 1.173 over 5.8 of unique. That is .1 grains over the max published load. It does very close to 900 fps from a my Sr 1911 full size. The round went in behind the shoulder, seperated two ribs from the spine, popped the lungs and just made it out the other side. The little boar ( about 180-190 lbs) Hurrumphed, rolled up and died. Speer #12 have some good data for 260 grain jacketed, and after some digging, I know that if you seat the lee 255 swc to 1.195 or the 250r rnfp to 1.20 ( right to the bottom edge of the crimp groove) you have slightly more casa capacity than with the published bullet. IIRC, 5.8 of unique at those lenghts gets about 875 ... a flat bottom pin stop is the only addition to my sr 1911... and according to speer #12 are standard loads... find the manual for exact info... but those worked for me.YMMV
I'd not seek out a bear with any of those loads, but they are all essentially original 45 colt power in a 9 round semi auto package...
Jason

[dragon813gt]

It is legal ....if you have a firearm permit. That said, I've been archery hunting in Pa. bear country for over 30 yrs., have seen a ton of bears. Big males and sows with cubs in tow. I've had them sniffing the rungs on my tree stand, but have never felt threatened by a black bear. I do carry a side arm while archery hunting with the hopes of taking a coyote. I never considered it as protection from bears. You shoot a bear in archery deer season....you better be able to prove that the bear was indeed attacking.

You got that right. The game commission is going to confiscate everything until the investigation is complete. And I even mean the vehicle you were using that day. I carry pepper spray w/ me. Haven't had to use it yet, thankfully.

The law about carrying while hunting was finally clarified a few years back. It was a gray area for far to long. Just make sure you have your CCW permit.

[MT Chambers]

I think back to some of the bears I've shot and at close range, and I wouldn't be happy with a .45 auto......prolly just let them be!

[jcren]

I powder coat the lee 230 tc tl for both a Taurus 24/7 and a RIA 1911 and sized 452 with a thumbnail of shoulder showing, both chamber every time. Note oal for this bullet is short. Loaded over 7 grains of HS-6 is a fair bit frisky, but I would work up a max +p load for a very hard version of this bullet for your use.

[GabbyM]

H&G #68 cast bullet made from an alloy harder than WW. 2/6 alloy at a BHN #15 would be my choice. All they do is drill a .45 inch hole but they run deep and straight. They will out penetrate the heavier bullets due to there higher velocity. Then a 230 grain RN would do about as well and with some shot angles maybe better. Figure on making your first shot count as it may be your only one. For a general purpose SD load in a 45 acp I'd go with a 200 grain truncated cone at aver 900 fps. From bears to ghetto. This one from Accurate molds. If you have a mold that shoots good and you like it then just stick with it and go for it.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-200E-D.png

If you want to stay with a Lee mold. They make a 200gr RF in six cavity. I shoot a Magma 200 RF that works great in the 45 acp even though it is a 45 Colt bullet design. The crimp grove gets covered down in the case.

[Tatume]

As an "arm chair expert" who hasn't shot dozens of charging bears like some here, I wouldn't want to take a position on the issue. However, sometimes hunters need to protect themselves from other creatures, such as people, rabid foxes, dog packs, etc., and for those uses the 45 ACP works rather well. I like the lightest hollow point bullet and the highest possible velocity, as I feel it will stop an attacking rabid fox most quickly. My brother was bitten by a fox and had to undergo the treatments (he killed the fox with a tree limb and brought it to the hospital). I don't want to endure it.

Take care, Tom

[Blackwater]

I think it's a good question, and like Tatume, I don't have the experience with real, live bears to make a valid comment, but if I were a young college student with a .45 ACP, I think I'd just learn how to not make bears charge, particularly mama bears, and then I'd prepare myself as best as I could by cooking up some good loads in that .45, just in case the good will thing didn't work. From the testing I've done in wet newsprint and wood and sand and other stuff, there's really not all that much difference between the penetration of the 200's vs. the 230's, but I've never shot really hard alloys, and that can have an effect on penetration that's significant, again, from the little I've done with the really hard alloys.

About your only real chance is a brain shot at stopping a charging bear. There's just not enough "knock down power" or "shock" in the .45 for that, so bullet placement will have to be your saving grace if you got attacked. Whether you survive or not may well depend on how steady you are under attack, how quickly you think and react, and how well you can shoot quickly. With a handgun, this is always the prime question, and one that can really only be answered after a real attack. One may win several such "fights," and then lose one.

I'd darn sure not leave that .45 behind! And for the surety of penetration, I'm not sure I wouldn't use one of the FMJSWC's for this specific purpose. You DEFINITELY don't want a round nose, that can glance off a tough skull if they hit at much of an angle. It'd definitely need to be a FP, jacketed or cast, and the Lee 230 TC, with good shot placement, would likely do the job. If I got charged by a bear and HAD to defend myself, or at least attempt to, I'd be focusing on its eyes, and therefore would likely shoot where I'm looking at. That seems to be a consistent pattern, if only given some reasonable talent with the gun so as to be able to place one's shots in a hurry and well.

If you shot a jaw bone and broke it, that would or could go a long way toward surviving the attack. If the shot just made it hesitate, you would likely have a 2nd shot, but you'd probably not have a 3rd unless you're mighty fast. If it were me, I'd practice turning away at various angles to the target at not over 15 yds., and shooting. I'd look long and hard at finding a place where I could take an old tire and put a target on it, and shooting at it as it bounced down a hill. A bear, after all, will be bouncing up and down as it approaches, and if you're ready and practiced at that, you'd have done yourself a great favor. Rigging up a zip line with a hanging target board that someone behind you can pull would be a good idea, too, IF a poor, busy college student can just find the TIME for all that, which is pretty doubtful, but not impossible.

All I can say, in the end, is "good luck," and hope you never have to find out what it takes to kill a charging bear, but if you ever have the occasion, just shoot sharp and shoot accurately. That'll give you the best results possible.

[GabbyM]

FYI most of the Lee 230 TC molds will cast a 240 grain bullet that flies very slow.

[Seeker]

I'm sorry, I didn't give input on the OPs question. I was just surprised at it. A .45 acp would be a lot better than a big stick though. There have been some good answers though. I would just be careful not to mistake a curious bear for a threatening bear. I guess that could only come from having been around bears. I am reminded of a case near here when a bear was said to have been killed in self defense. The Pa. Game Commission proved that it wasn't. Forensics showed that there was no adrenaline present in the bears bloodstream at the time of death....

[Jevyod]

Thanks for all the info guys! And to answer several things that have come up...yes I do have my Pa carry license. Secondly, I am not going out and looking for a fight with a bear. Not at all. Will I ever need to use it in a defense situation? I really hope not. But in my mind, it certainly is better than using my bow or knife. I plan on being smart about it, and doing my best to not get in a compromising situation with one! Also, I carry it just as much for coyote or any other little furry that has nasty thoughts about me!! I hope to eventually get a 45 colt but at this point in life, it really is not an option.

[Motor]

Ok I admit I didn't read all of the replies that being said: You will need an alloy that will allow for penetration. I also agree heavier is better. Test firing is a must.

Personally and I may take some heat for this but I would go with a good j-word. Sorry.

Motor

[1bluehorse]

We all know the 45acp isn't enough gun for bear protection...... but I guess the guy at Yellowstone a few years back that ACTUALLY killed an attacking Grizzly didn't know that....

Uh, my bad, it was in Denali National Park....

[Motor]

The OP don't have to worry about that. Ain't no Grizzly bear in PA. ;)

Well maybe at the Pittsburgh zoo.

Motor

[1bluehorse]

The OP don't have to worry about that. Ain't no Grizzly bear in PA. ;)

Well maybe at the Pittsburgh zoo.

Motor

Oh, well that's different then. The 45acp is definitely not enough gun for a black bear......good grief..:drinks:

[jsizemore]

230 grain ball ammo works just fine.

[DougGuy]

I tried some of Buffalo Bore's 255 grn lead boolits, and a few of them failed the plunk test.

Might be time to throat the barrel. The cast boolit is the 453423 there is another like it plunked in the chamber. This one is a very good bowling pin load, which would by design also be a good bear load IF you have to use a 1911 for bear. Just sayin'

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/DSC04487_zps6qi3rtrp.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/DSC04487_zps6qi3rtrp.jpg.html)



Personally and I may take some heat for this but I would go with a good j-word. Sorry.

Motor

j-word usually has a dead soft core which would expand rapidly and not give enough penetration. A hard cast boolit with a good bit of meplat is likely the best bet in the 1911 for bear. FORGET hollowpoints.

[Motor]

I said a "good" j-word. Not one designed to expand on a human.

Hard ball would not be a bad choice.

Motor

[GabbyM]

Gee I hope I'm not being perceived as an "armchair expert". Per post #18. I realize no malise was intended. Just that I have a soft tender disposition.
Reference my post #17 as my response to the OP's question.
My credentials on this subject are as follows. I have been Bear hunting in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and have butchered a half dozen dead black bears.
The only bear we lost was one where the hunter in our group thought he had to shoot it seveal times. He was using a 12 gage shotgun with slugs. Some of you will have encountered this while some readers here may be shocked. What he did was try to fire the third round before he fired his first round. If that makes any sense. His first two shots missed by at least two feet. Given we witnessed a hit on a tree chest high to a man. His third shot hit the poor animal in the ham as it was running off. We tracked the blood trail until 3:30 A.M. Had never been hunting with this fellow before but none of us saw this poor performance coming. He also told a stack of lies attempting to cover up his faults. Thus failing to man up to his error. I've blown a shot myself as any hunter has. I'll just say I never went hunting with him again nor had any contact. He was one of those fellows with a wealthy daddy. No caliber of gun could fix any of that mess.

At any rate that's why in my first post I recommended to the OP he make his first shot count. Since no matter what our hunting situation is. Rabbit, pigeon or whatever. If you miss the first shot you are playing catchup after that. If your mind is set upon spraying lead you will with no question make an ugly mess of things. I just turned sixty years old this summer and have yet to see the spray and pray method of shooting work one single time. Unless you count one in nine shots hitting as a success? Have also never witnessed a round nose bullet bouncing off a target where a flat point would of magically drilled a hole. Don't want to step on anyone's feelings but that is just silly. I understand the living inside ones own head logic in disregard to science. However bullets are not pool balls. The United States Army says round nose bullets penetrate the moistest and I'll hold to there data.

As far as 45 ACP VS bear. The ubiquitous 44-40 Winchester slung a 205 grain soft leaf boolit over black powder at a tad over 1200 fps. Any handy ballistic calculator could tell us at what range a 44-40 dropped below the energy of a 45 ACP muzzle energy. I'd not consider either firearm anywhere close to ideal power for Black Bears. But for a grown man to state you can't kill a Black Bear with a 45 ACP or 38 Special is simply lame as all get out. That said my preferred firearm for a Black Bear hunt is a 30-06 with 220 grain flat point. View pic below. Power factor between that hunk of lead and a pistol is like comparing a Frisbee to an Apollo rocket ship to our moon. Last time I checked my back pocket had little room to spare for a Saturn V rocket.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134641&d=1426964408

[GabbyM]

PS
First bear hunt all I had for a pocket gun was an M39 S&W 9mm. I loaded it with 125gr 357 magnum bullets over a big charge of Blue Dot. This was before I cast boolits other than smoke polls. After witnessing the indifference a bear has to being hit with projectiles from a 30-06, 8mm Mauser, 375 Winchester. I purchased a Colt Anaconda in 44 Magnum as a push through the brush chase gun. Since every bear we shot ran into the wild black cherry swamps. Where you can shove a rifle barrel out in front then move it a foot or two in either direction. Not a good feeling. Big booming hand guns rule in that sort of environment. They are all under powered. Way better than a sharp stick however. That said: What is it with people who think an archery rig can take a Black Bear but a 45 ACP is suicide? Yes right?? Maybe if you believe Rambo can use a one ounce tipped arrow to blow a home into vapor.

Not trying to stir anything up. However of all the hand guns I won. 9mm, 38S, 357 Mag, 45 acp, 44 Mag. Well a 380 acp but that is out. If I ever go bear hunting again I'll carry one of my S&W 38 Special revolvers to back up my 30-06. Also have a lanyard rig for my revolvers. Since if you are getting your feathers ruffled by a bear it is by default ugly. Then there is the Case xxx hunting knife I acquired at the ripe age of thirteen in the 1960's. While I'm sure bear have ben killed with a knife in North America. I'm also sure no one alive today has done so and the survival rate of those encounters is low. Yes I read the story in Outdoor-Life back In the 1960's. It was fable. But if all I had was a knife as a bear was chewing on me. I'd be wishing to God I had a 45, 38 or something.

[303Guy]

I once shot a bushpig (African bushpig) with a 245 gr FP 44 mag. The lack of penetration and lack of effect shocked me! Well, the effect was actually quite impressive. The pig got real agitated! I killed it with a shotgun and even then the first blast of shot deflected off the hide leaving deep grazes. It was a small bushpig too. Now had I hit what I aimed at it would have been dead on the spot but my bullet went under its thick skin and just over its skull, probably nicking it and through the muscular neck and stopping against a vertebra tip. It was a slow and carefully aimed shot too, not fired in haste at a charging critter intent on killing me. It wasn't a well placed shot having aimed a little too high and shot a little higher than aimed - making it a bad shot! But you get my point. Shooting into tough and tense muscle needs a lot of bullet. Penetration was less than a foot.

[AllanD]

This all calls to mind a letter to the editor of one of the gun rags about 30years ago..

The letter was looking for a recommendation on what cast bullet to load in his 357 mag for defense in Bear country...

The response was to load a 158 swc of his choice sized to grove diameter of his revolver...
and to lube the bullet with a home-made mixture of bees wax and bacon grease then to fire all six as rapidly as possible,
drop the revolver on the ground and run like hell.. with any kind of luck the aroma of the smoking revolver will distract the bear long enough so you can escape...

I don't think black bears take all that much killing, but as reliable as the 1911 is, I'd prefer a 1911 in 10mm Auto...

When confronted with a critter that wants to EAT you there is no such thing as too much gun, and when you
shoot the bugger you want it's great grand parents to feel pain...

[S.B.]

Agreed. As I understand it, the 45 Colt did good service as a primary sidearm, and ballistics weren't too different from the 45 ACP.

For hard cast bullets, heavy with as big a meplat as possible tends to leave two holes.
Everything you say is true but, one must consider that the ACP is particular when it comes to bullet profile. Where as the LC can be loaded with any profile desired.
To the original poster, why not go with a H&G 68. It will fit the old 200grain at 1000fps adage and feeds well in a 1911 and cuts a good round hole.
Steve

[NavyVet1959]

Also, depending upon the leade/throat of your barrel, it might be possible to load the first round longer than would feed through a magazine and load it by hand instead of via the magazine. This might allow you to load a heavier .45LC bullet long enough that there won't be a pressure issue with your .45ACP handgun. Your subsequent rounds would have to be shorter to feed from the magazine though, but that one special round might make a difference.

[Motor]

GabbyM.
I have read or tried to read some long posts before and usually fall asleep not too far in. That surly was not the case with your last 2 here. When I got to the end of the second I was disappointed it was done. You should write stories for an outdoor publication of some sort. :)

Motor

[randyrat]

Black Bear (Grizzly your on your own) will charge you (seldom happens) if they do be sure to stand your ground and the bear will back off (Most of the time), if you don't run or cower they will back off..Time to back off slowly and get out of there, go home and change your under wear.
Good thing an old timer told me this or I would have run when it happened to me, it happens so fast there is no time to think about pointing a gun. Black Bear are fast when they want to be.

If it was a 45 ACP I would use a round nose with plenty of snort, who cares about leading or long range accuracy..

Hopefully you have somewhat tight fitting under wear and you didn't fill your boots

[Geezer in NH]

My wife chases several bears a year of the front or back porch. She uses her broom (she does not read this forum so I can say her second vehicle) Big or small they all leave very fast. She also has a 357 mag with 158 grainers in it on her.

It seems Black bears here in NH are not a big excitement animal. But when one does not retreat she will kill it.

My son at 12 years old kicked a 150 pounder repeatedly for killing 3 of his chickens. He drove it out of the aviary and closed the coop door. I ran out and the stupid 120 pounder walked towards me snapping his jaws he died from several shots from my Glock 9 m26 loaded with 124 grn. fed hydra-shocks. I needed no reload.

[dudel]

22lr should be enough. Buddy of mine says that's what he carries in Alaska. Doesn't plan on shooting the bear; he's going to wound his partner!

[Bullwolf]

Gee I hope I'm not being perceived as an "armchair expert". Per post #18. I realize no malise was intended. Just that I have a soft tender disposition.
Reference my post #17 as my response to the OP's question.
My credentials on this subject are as follows. I have been Bear hunting in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and have butchered a half dozen dead black bears.
The only bear we lost was one where the hunter in our group thought he had to shoot it seveal times. He was using a 12 gage shotgun with slugs. Some of you will have encountered this while some readers here may be shocked. What he did was try to fire the third round before he fired his first round. If that makes any sense. His first two shots missed by at least two feet. Given we witnessed a hit on a tree chest high to a man. His third shot hit the poor animal in the ham as it was running off. We tracked the blood trail until 3:30 A.M. Had never been hunting with this fellow before but none of us saw this poor performance coming. He also told a stack of lies attempting to cover up his faults. Thus failing to man up to his error. I've blown a shot myself as any hunter has.


As far as 45 ACP VS bear. The ubiquitous 44-40 Winchester slung a 205 grain soft leaf boolit over black powder at a tad over 1200 fps. Any handy ballistic calculator could tell us at what range a 44-40 dropped below the energy of a 45 ACP muzzle energy. I'd not consider either firearm anywhere close to ideal power for Black Bears. But for a grown man to state you can't kill a Black Bear with a 45 ACP or 38 Special is simply lame as all get out. That said my preferred firearm for a Black Bear hunt is a 30-06 with 220 grain flat point. View pic below. Power factor between that hunk of lead and a pistol is like comparing a Frisbee to an Apollo rocket ship to our moon. Last time I checked my back pocket had little room to spare for a Saturn V rocket.


I enjoyed reading what you wrote GabbyM, as I am much more of an "armchair" expert on this subject than you - Having never hunted bear, or had to shoot a bear. I do know that the Forrest service guys bring a shotgun for the bad bear encounters though.

The only bear incidents I've had are chasing black bears out of the yard, hitting one with the truck, (that ran off) or having a bear get into my Jeep in the driveway when someone messed up and left food inside the vehicle.

I always subscribed to the school of thought that a shotgun slug was the best bear medicine, however with the caveat that you must also be enough of a marksman to able to place the slug in the proper location. (while under pressure as well) Unfortunately my smooth bore 12 gauge slug accuracy is a 50 yards or less type of thing.

Of course it also helps to actually have the shotgun with you. I agree that a 45 ACP on your hip, would be better than a shotgun that was left in the truck.

If I was going to go pick wild berries, or do something else stupid intentionally in bear country wearing my honey and bacon flavored pajamas, I would likely carry a 44Mag revolver, or my 445 Supermag instead of the 45acp.





Have also never witnessed a round nose bullet bouncing off a target where a flat point would of magically drilled a hole. Don't want to step on anyone's feelings but that is just silly. I understand the living inside ones own head logic in disregard to science. However bullets are not pool balls. The United States Army says round nose bullets penetrate the moistest and I'll hold to there data.


I've never had a round nose bullet bounce of an animals skull before either. I've done a bit of deer hunting, and put an animal or two down on the farm while growing up and I have yet to have a well placed shot magically bounce off a bone.

I will relate this story that happened to my best friend and shooting partners oldest sister, while she worked at the local bank.

A would be bank robber walked into her bank waving a cocked 38 special snub nose revolver around at the bank tellers. Bad luck for her, that he picked her window out of all the others. While he was screaming at her to give him all the money in her drawer, in his excited state AND with his finger on the trigger, he accidentally fired the cocked revolver while pointing it in her direction. The bullet struck her in the lower chest. (upper abdomen)

Ashley did not realize she had been shot at the time, or even afterwards, until the paramedics took a look at her. She bled very little and her shirt back absorbed all the blood, the majority of the blood came out the back, at the exit wound location.

She was shot at relatively close range with a factory 38 special 158 grain RN lead bullet from what I assume was a 2 inch barrel. The bullet entered just below her breast, followed along the rib, and exited out of her back on the same side causing only superficial damage to her fortunately. The fired bullet was also recovered.

The would be bank robber (who later got caught) was as surprised a she was about the shooting. The whole "Give me the money" transaction was carried out as calmly as could be expected, as if the shooting had not happened. He must have assumed at the time that it was a miss. Ashley assumed the shot missed, or else was a warning or some kind of intimidation shot.

I saw the wound, which has since healed up quite nicely and have talked with her quite a bit about the incident, since I don't know many other people who have actually been shot up close with a 38 Special, and were willing to discuss it with me. She's a tough cookie, and the majority of her family is in law enforcement ironically enough.

I've always believed that (most of the time) a flat nose, or a HP bullet with a sharp edge will dig in and not deflect, and hopefully penetrate straight not doing quite the same thing that RN bullet did when Ashley got shot. It works well on bowling pins at least, so I'll be set if I ever get attacked by a pack of rabid bowling pins.

I subscribe to the FN beats a RN theory, but only if they feed and function reliably in your gun. I'll happily use a round nose that functioned well, instead of a flat point that got hung up in an auto pistol.

In the real world though, once the bullet leaves your gun lots of different things completely out of your control can happen.



- Bullwolf

[303Guy]

22lr should be enough. Buddy of mine says that's what he carries in Alaska. Doesn't plan on shooting the bear; he's going to wound his partner!That is wicked! :mrgreen:

[CJR]

If I only packed a 45ACP for bear, I'd use a load developed by Col. Jeff Cooper years ago. I used linotype in a Lyman 452374 mould for about 215gr. with about 7.2 gr. Unique for about 1000 fps. Its a penetrater.

The largest black bears in my area go from 600 to 800 lbs. Likewise, PA has the largest black bears in the world. I've heard "stories" about 1000 pounders, but never saw one in the woods. We had a 625 lb. sow in one camp that was drug-darted and weighed by the Game Commission. A 800 lb Black Bear was taken down the road from our camp. In our hunting camps we took a few good sized 500 pounders and they all took a number of rounds for them to "give up the spirit". On big critters, blood-letting penetration is the key along with bone-busting. Forget all the nonsense about black bears being docile. In the US, Black bears have killed more people than all the other bears combined. We had two bears, in our camp, that were very aggressive, i.e. chased two members in bow season. Bottom-line, give them a lot of respect.

Best regards,

CJR

[longbow]

I went through all the pros and cons a couple of years ago researching for a friend who wanted to (and did) carry a 1911 for bear protection.

He is a reloader but not much of an experimenter.

I have to say up front that I am also an armchair expert when it comes to bear protection. I live in bear country and in fact currently have a sow with two cubs and at least two other bears roaming through our backyard several times a week. I live in the city (small town) but on the Columbia River bank and bears wander up and down the bank and through our yard.

I have run into bears many times in my own backyard and also when out hunting, hiking, fishing and for the most part they are quite timid though one wouldn't want to depend on them being timid as a defense.

I usually carry bear spray or pack a rifle/shotgun nowadays because we are not allowed to carry a side arm except for special circumstances. My friend has a free miner's license which allows him to carry a handgun in the bush.

Anyway, he wanted to get set up for .45-08 so asked me to research it for him. What I found out was a bit of an education.

First off when I posted his intent here I got the polarized comments basically in two camps:

- a .45 ACP won't stop a bear
- better to have a gun you are proficient with than no gun (that was his idea as well, he is proficient with his 1911 and wanted a sidearm that is with him all the time)

There were also the folks who warned against using ammunition loaded hotter than the 1911 is designed for and those that have shot thousands of rounds of +P, .460 Rowland, .45 Super without a hitch. Go figure.

I also got lots of positive responses and some very helpful.

If you haven't heard of it, the .45-08 was developed by a fellow in Prince George for bear protection. It used cut down and reamed .308 cartridges and 200 gr. boolit at around 1300 FPS.

Me, I would have figured heavier is better but the gunsmith that developed the cartridge worked with a high velocity 200 gr. boolit.

I also researched on the internet and learned lots about the capabilities of .45 ACP. Not as wimpy as one might think for large critters if loaded correctly and I am not talking .45-08, .45 Super or .460 Rowland, just properly loaded .45 ACP.

I was sent some articles by members here that I would be happy to forward to you if you are interested.

I also dug up quite a bit of information on .45-08, .45 Super and .460 Rowland if you are interested. Both are relatively easy to convert a 1911 to shoot so no new gun required. Not sure of total expense but it something you might consider to get some more punch from the 1911.

What I took away from it all was that the .45 ACP while not he best choice is adequate if loaded properly and if you are proficient with it. Multiple rounds can be fired in very short order and has been said before ~ if you want a gun twice as effective as what you have, pull the trigger twice.

That thread is here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?223145-45-ACP-P-45-Super-and-45-08-Heavy-Boolit-Load-Data

PM me with your e-mail if you would like the articles I have.

Longbow

[CJR]

Post Script on guns to use against Black Bear,


Content deleted. Inappropriate for children.

Best regards,

CJR

[Recruit]

Just shoot both eyes out of the bear and it will no longer be able to see you. Yes, that's what I would do.

[reloader28]

We're covered with grizzlies here. Though we aint had to shoot at one yet, we carry 45acp almost 24/7. If we're camping or hunting its bigger, harder hitting revolvers..

I got an NOE 235gr HP/255gr RF. Sweet boolit. It has a nice big meplat, shoots very good and the 255gr solid is 920fps from my Ruger P90's. Feeds very good in everything we've tried it in, and excellent penetration.

I wouldnt be a bit scared to shoot a black bear or hog with it.

[Oleman]

Check your state regs, many states do not allow a firearm ( including side arms ) afield while archery hunting. Best to find out before ya have any problems.... Boolett wise, heavyest that will reliably function in your weapon.

Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 8.