Crazy idea for a composite cast bullet

[atl5029]

Hey y'all.

I am always trying to think of ways to improve bullets, and today I had an idea for a composite bullet that was inspired by some shotgun slugs I was considering to purchase.

I was thinking if I could cast a bullet with a deep hollow base (as in most of the bullet shank is hollow, I could then fill that base with something like tungsten powder or a solid tungsten core. This would drastically increase the weight of the bullet but keep its length the same so it would not require a faster twist to stabilize. The applications could be many!

What I'm wondering is if it is possible to cast bullets with a deep hollow base like I describe, or conversely, cast a bullet with a REALLY deep, big hollow point that could be partially filled after casting.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

[tazman]

If I remember correctly there were some people doing something similar for match loadings a long time ago. Possibly for muzzle loading rifles. They made a 2 piece boolit and either pressed or glued them together. I believe the parts were cast of different alloys in order to maximize accuracy.
I wish I had more data than that for you.

[williamwaco]

Yes it is possible. Contact one of the custom mold makers.

[Johnch]

Hornady dose or used to make a .458 dia FMJ to hunt nasty stuff with a Tungsten insert in it to add weight but not length

Now that I have a 458 WM rifle .....oh well still not interested in spending that much for bullets

John

[Digital Dan]

Is called reinventing the wheel. Tungsten core bullets have been around for a long time in jacketed form.


Question I would pose is what is the objective.

[big bore 99]

It sounds like a good idea that might work out. The one thing I would worry about is the core blasting thru the lead and leaving a lead shell in the chamber or barrel.

[NavyVet1959]

Have you checked on the price of tungsten?

[303Guy]

This would drastically increase the weight of the bullet but keep its length the same so it would not require a faster twist to stabilize. The applications could be many!That would be the objective. I'm not so sure about the tungsten being the best choice though. Platinum would be better, being quite a bit heavier. Plutonium - not that much heavier. [smilie=1:

But seriously, I'd think that tungsten would be quite expensive but if one could get tungsten in a usable shape and size it should work but I would tend to put it in the nose rather than the base. I would also make it a short and wide tungsten slug so as to put the weight forward and giving the projectile a hard flat impacting nose backed up by the softer lead. If I had a choice I would make the tungsten into a heavy base cup with lead filling the rear and forming a thickish jacket.

Another possible application for the principle would for lighter boolits. A hollow base filled with a cheap, lightweight filler just to give it 'body'. Or even a fat hollow nose so as to avoid the possibility of the core blowing through the nose leaving a tube of lead in the bore.

[NavyVet1959]

Depending upon the alloy the price of tungsten can vary considerably. The cheapest you will find is probably around $14 per pound vs around $0.77 per pound on the current market spot price for lead.

[atl5029]

Well as for the tungsten, I got a pound of lab grade powder for free as a sample from Buffalo Tungsten. Now I want to play with it. As for applications, I was also thinking of those poor guys in CA that have to shoot non toxic for hunting. Could cast in something like tin and fill the base with tungsten to make a standard weight bullet. Just a thought

[popper]

might have a problem with BATF. AP boolits? Maybe some W.F. shot in zinc?

[bangerjim]

Well as for the tungsten, I got a pound of lab grade powder for free as a sample from Buffalo Tungsten. Now I want to play with it. As for applications, I was also thinking of those poor guys in CA that have to shoot non toxic for hunting. Could cast in something like tin and fill the base with tungsten to make a standard weight bullet. Just a thought


Have you looked up the melting point of W? 6,192F. A bit over your casting pot's temp dial.

Using anything in a powdered form is not anywhere close to the solid metal due to air gaps. With the gaps, you would probably be near the weight of Pb (11.34g/cm3) rather than SOLID W (19.25g/cm3).

And wasting a valuable metal for a simple boolit!

That is why Pb has historically been the choice for arms......heavy and low melting point....easy to cast.

banger

[reed1911]

We use it in the sub-caliber game. Running heavy .14's and .17's. Bought in powder form and swaged into jackets. It is rather expensive but it works very well and certainly adds a lot to the little calibers. I'm not sure how much value it would be commercially, however it would work just fine in the manner you are proposing. I'd grab one of the HB molds from flea-bay and test it out. If it works to your pleasure you can always have a custom mold made for anything you want.

[mdi]

Wow, wet blanket time! I like to see ideas presented and I'll bet many folks thought smokeless powder wouldn't work either...

My first thoughts were to use the tungsten insert in the nose of the bullet to move center of mass forward. I think with a bit of thought one could compress powered tungsten with stuff found around a well equipped shop (I've used a bottle jack in a home made frame like a powered hydraulic press. Whole lots of pressure can be applied to a punch/die designed for an insert). Another thought was the legalities; tungsten cores have been used in an AP round (?) and would be frowned upon by ATF.

atl5029, don't let the nay-sayers rain on yer parade, keep thinkin'...:mrgreen:

[dudel]

Wow, wet blanket time! I like to see ideas presented and I'll bet many folks thought smokeless powder wouldn't work either...

My first thoughts were to use the tungsten insert in the nose of the bullet to move center of mass forward. I think with a bit of thought one could compress powered tungsten with stuff found around a well equipped shop (I've used a bottle jack in a home made frame like a powered hydraulic press. Whole lots of pressure can be applied to a punch/die designed for an insert). Another thought was the legalities; tungsten cores have been used in an AP round (?) and would be frowned upon by ATF.

atl5029, don't let the nay-sayers rain on yer parade, keep thinkin'...:mrgreen:

Seems like you could bond the powder with solder or epoxy. Sort of like Glasser rounds with smaller bits. Don't they make a sintered projectile to minimize splash back? Not sure if sintering tungsten in within the reach of the average garage.

Nice thing here, is that someone can throw out an idea (like powder coating), and lots of people jump in with ideas on how to make it work. Only a few will start wetting down the blanket.

[bangerjim]

No wet blankets here. All comments I make in threads like this are just the things I would bring up to myself and others in person face-to-face about new ideas. And come from decades of design engineering expertise in many industrial curriculums. It's called brain-storming. In the engineering world I work & live in, looking at ALL the positives AND negatives is imperative to achieving a successful final goal.

One should look at all aspects of a new or modified idea and weigh everything before plodding headlong into potentially fruitless, expensive, and dangerous endeavors.

I guess people on here are not used to hearing the "other side of the story" on potentially new and innovative thoughts. In engineering and design "brain-storming" meetings, all ideas are presented for consumption and review. There are no wet blankets at all.

If anyone on here feels that pointing out pros and cons is bad, better invest in a blanket wringer real fast.

banger

[Mal Paso]

Q metal (Depleted Uranium) is 60% heavier than lead. You could have Lead free bullets to save the Condors and you'd be helping the environment by recycling nuclear waste.:-D

[Digital Dan]

I posed the inquiry about "objective" earlier and it has not been addressed. Yes, W is denser than lead, but it also has characteristics that make functional application problematic for the hobbyist. Average Joe does not have the machinery to form solid cores and the use of powdered tungsten can and does lead to bullet imbalance, thus degraded accuracy as compared to conventional cup and core projectiles. This issue is particularly acute in larger diameter calibers.

So the question stands in rephrased form; to what end? Higher BC/SD? If that' it, what benefit accrues if accuracy is degraded?

Skeptical Dan

[reed1911]

Dan,
I think the OP's objective was stated more or less that he wanted to try it and had a Lb sent to him for free. If it adds any advantage for the user is yet to be known since the value is quite rather subjective only to the user. The only loss to him should the project go completely bust is a little time, so why not toss it out there to be kicked around with others in the community and give it a go.

[Digital Dan]

Well then, let the experiments begin!

[jcren]

Why not cast the bullet around the tungsten? Mix a little binding agent(glue of your choice) compress a rod or ball plug and drop it into the nose of the mold first.

[dudel]

Why not cast the bullet around the tungsten? Mix a little binding agent(glue of your choice) compress a rod or ball plug and drop it into the nose of the mold first.

or Duplexed?

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2013/06/03/doubletap-equalizer-ammo/

http://www.thegunzone.com/salvo.html

http://cartridgecollectors.org/images/introduction-to-30-06-cartridges/30-0he57.jpg

http://www.prbullet.com/duplex.htm

[pretzelxx]

I'd be worried if anyone from that one agency heard about this. If they considered ball ammo to be armor piercing what is tungsten considered? Tank piercing? Seems too expensive for the results... Interesting idea to pressurize the powder though.

[olafhardt]

HBWC can be reversed. Also I don't know if lead wets tungsten but you might just forget the hollow base and mix tungsten powder into lead. Or tungsten may be soluble in lead. A liquid can desolve a solid. Think about that as you stir sugar into your coffee.

[reed1911]

So far as the ATF is concerned, in powder form they don't care. The issue is more performance based than anything else. If it were a solid slug, in a handgun, yes you would have an issue. As a powder it will disperse on impact.

[Johnch]

Oh interesting

Tungsten sinks in lead
As I was sometimes getting a Tungsten / plastic WW's from a friend mixed in with the lead , steel and Zink WW's

It sinks and makes a real mess in the Lee bottom pour pot
The Tungsten powder gets into the pour hole and makes the pot drip a LOT and then you have to clean the pot out

John

[Harter66]

Somebody just had a HBWC on sale . Cast it in ww ,fill the HB with tungsten and form it in a basic swage die base to make the nose . I'd be game to assist I have an old 308 105 (100-110) RN swage set if someone has a 90 gr HBWC for a 32 pistol there's a place to start . I don't have any jackets so knurling would need to be done before shooting in a 308 or 300 Savage.

........

[mdi]

FWIW; Barnes manufacturers a bullet with a tungsten alloy core (Silvex, r). They call it MRX. In the description it states the bullet is shorter allowing more case capacity...

[reed1911]

Several manufacturers use a W core for added weight. They are only in rifle bullets as in a pistol bullet that would be in violation of the ATF. They are solid inserts not compressed to my knowledge.

[bangerjim]

Oh interesting

Tungsten sinks in lead
As I was sometimes getting a Tungsten / plastic WW's from a friend mixed in with the lead , steel and Zink WW's

It sinks and makes a real mess in the Lee bottom pour pot
The Tungsten powder gets into the pour hole and makes the pot drip a LOT and then you have to clean the pot out

John

Wooooooooooooow! So you are finding W filled/embedded plastic cased COWW's? That I have never seen. Definitely would be heavier but extremely expensive. Mabe for $600K sports cars or racers?

Powered W would be like pouring carbide rubbing/lapping compound in your pot! It will embed in the soft valve at the bottom and pretty much ruin the whole thing. And with a 1,600+F melting point, you will never get it to dissolve or soften.

[bearcove]

I wondered what was in the plastic WWs??? W? Does that make them WWWs???

[reed1911]

Jim, correct. Adding it to the melt (whole pot) would not be a good idea, it would never mix homogeneously. I suppose you could cast it up like a two part soft nose cast, pour the nose and allow to cool, add the powdered W and then pour the rear, but I don't think it would be an easy task to mix it properly nor get good consistency. I think the best idea will be to use a hollow base mold of some sort and then swage the powdered W into the base.

In Jacketed swaging, we just measure the weight, add to the jacket, and swage as normal. It takes a little trial and error to get the dies set up just because it does not flow like lead does. Depending on the dies used, you will run into the same thing here, just adjust carefully and SLOWLY, it is rather easy to break a punch.

[olafhardt]

I cast and use a Lee modern improved minie in my 500 s&w magnum Handirifle. I shoot them foward and reversed. They have a huge hollow base. The base could be packed with powder and a few drops of glue or melted wax applied or maybe a snall chunk of low melt solder and heat it.

[303Guy]

Can one swage the tungsten powder with powdered lead? I'm thinking of it holding together on impact.

[reed1911]

No. Powdered metal of any kind, swaged (under normal swage pressure) will only compress. In order to press it hard enough to build up enough heat to melt would take huge power and huge dies (think industrial) to do. It would be less energy to forge them rather than swage them. Even lead, say you take two halfs (or three thirds like Triton did) and swage them together, they come apart upon impact. You simply cannot generate enough heat to melt the metal together to make it stick together. Without that, they fall apart. In fact, if you take two pieces of lead and swage them they will come out of the die looking like a solid single piece, but roll it between your fingers and you can break it apart.